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Re: [NH] web pages and Netscape

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  • stephen riddle
    Hover will not work in Netscape four, but then again it s a product from before hover was invented. Hover also does not work on an Etcha-a-Sketch. Think I ll
    Message 1 of 29 , Jul 18, 2002
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      Hover will not work in Netscape four, but then again it's a product from
      before hover was invented. Hover also does not work on an Etcha-a-Sketch.
      Think I'll start hating Etcha-a-Sketches!
      Almost everything works on Netscape 6.
      Good thing some folks actually try it.
      Good Luck,
      Stephen

      >
      > I don't believe the hover style works in netscape 4.7, and probably not in
      > version 6 either. I would not worry too much about that, just let it go and
      > chalk it up as one more thing to hate about Netscape ;)
      >
      >
    • Adam Weston
      My bad... I thought hover was a MS-specific, but as you implied, I should have checked before opening my mouth. (OK hate was too strong a word, but I still
      Message 2 of 29 , Jul 19, 2002
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        My bad... I thought hover was a MS-specific, but as you implied, I should
        have checked before opening my mouth.

        (OK "hate" was too strong a word, but I still "dislike" NS ;-) )

        -Adam

        ----- Original Message -----
        Hover will not work in Netscape four, but then again it's a product from
        before hover was invented. Hover also does not work on an Etcha-a-Sketch.
        Think I'll start hating Etcha-a-Sketches!
        Almost everything works on Netscape 6.
        Good thing some folks actually try it.
        Good Luck,
        Stephen




        .~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
        : Adam Weston :
        : adam_weston@... :
        `~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`


        _________________________________________________________________
        MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
        http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
      • Jeff Burrows
        Still, since the last time Netscape 4 was updated, I have had two children and three new cars. Back then, Netscape did cost between $29 and $79 so I can
        Message 3 of 29 , Jul 19, 2002
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          Still, since the last time Netscape 4 was updated,
          I have had two children and three new cars.

          Back then, Netscape did cost between $29 and $79
          so I can understand that people want a return on
          their investment, but isn't it getting silly...?

          Please, tell everyone you know, everyone within
          the sound of your voice, that if they are so
          afraid of Microsoft that they can't handle IE,
          both Netscape 6.2 and Mozilla 1.0 are free to
          download and are very nice.



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Adam Weston [mailto:adam_weston@...]
          Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 1:11 PM
          To: ntb-html@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [NH] web pages and Netscape


          My bad... I thought hover was a MS-specific, but as you implied, I should
          have checked before opening my mouth.

          (OK "hate" was too strong a word, but I still "dislike" NS ;-) )

          -Adam

          ----- Original Message -----
          Hover will not work in Netscape four, but then again it's a product from
          before hover was invented. Hover also does not work on an Etcha-a-Sketch.
          Think I'll start hating Etcha-a-Sketches!
          Almost everything works on Netscape 6.
          Good thing some folks actually try it.
          Good Luck,
          Stephen




          .~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
          : Adam Weston :
          : adam_weston@... :
          `~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`


          _________________________________________________________________
          MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
          http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx





          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Fay
          Knowing that has stopped me from wasting time trying to make it work. Thanks. Fay
          Message 4 of 29 , Jul 19, 2002
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            Knowing that has stopped me from wasting time trying to make it work.
            Thanks.
            Fay
          • Fay
            All the html sites said Make sure it works in old browsers . So I got one, and it didn t. I have no way of knowing how many people would be using NS4. I still
            Message 5 of 29 , Jul 19, 2002
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              All the html sites said "Make sure it works in old browsers".
              So I got one, and it didn't.
              I have no way of knowing how many people would be using NS4.
              I still have a hankering for Word 2.
              Perhaps some like the old NS or have small hdds.
              I tried NS6 once and it took too long to fire up.
              I threw it away.
              IE suits me well, but I'd like my pages to look reasonable everywhere.
              Thanks.
              Fay.
            • stephen riddle
              Hi Adam et al. That s ok. I dislike IE, maybe not as strongly as some, It s a pretty ok browser at any rate, but I gave up flaming browsers last year. There
              Message 6 of 29 , Jul 19, 2002
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                Hi Adam et al.

                That's ok. I dislike IE, maybe not as strongly as some, It's a pretty ok
                browser at any rate, but I gave up flaming browsers last year. There are
                several IE-specific CSS extensions. (I think they call them filters or
                something like that.) I have not checked out IE-6 completely, but there were
                a few things in the STANDARDS that IE-5 did not do. Since I can't remember
                what they are, they must not be that important. And since IE-6 ate up IE-5
                and, maybe a few other files, I can't re-check the situation out.
                I've also noted that you can't believe everything you read. There have been
                times I've read about a bug in one brand of browser (in books I paid for, no
                less), but hav it work fine in that browser (at least for me), but not in the
                other one. (And it's gone both ways.) I have a lot of bi-lateral dyslexia,
                if there are dyads, I need to repeatedly check my data that I'm calling a
                spade a spade and a club a club, not the other way around. I think some of
                the on-line and in-print gurus do the same thing except forget to check, so,
                checking for yourself is always a good thang.


                On Friday 19 July 2002 10:11, you wrote:
                > My bad... I thought hover was a MS-specific, but as you implied, I should
                > have checked before opening my mouth.
                >
                > (OK "hate" was too strong a word, but I still "dislike" NS ;-) )
                >
                > -Adam
                >
              • stephen riddle
                Hi Fay, Because browsers are so individual, it seems (and even your user s settings will alter the way a web page looks), remember that your page will only
                Message 7 of 29 , Jul 19, 2002
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                  Hi Fay,
                  Because browsers are so individual, it seems (and even your user's settings
                  will alter the way a web page looks), remember that your page will only look
                  identical in assorted browsers if it is nothing but plain text with a .txt
                  extension. Trying to control everything about every user's experience with
                  your page will only leave you verrry disgusted with something or other.
                  What you need to do is decide what is most important, and go for that, then
                  next most important, and then. . . I have a friend who designs for one
                  browser and says the other looks like bat dung. When I visit her site, with
                  the despicable browser, it looks fine to me. She is upset because a line
                  here or there is not showing "properly". I try not to tell her she's being
                  silly. . .

                  One way to (kind of) test for old browsers, without actually having one, that
                  is, is to turn off scripting, CSS, and anything else on your browser. (I
                  believe in IE, it's under Internet Options, I'm in Linux at the moment, and
                  can't check, as I don't have a Linux-compatible IE (really don't think there
                  is one) so someone correct me if I'm wrong.)
                  I am getting to where I like the older browsers better, myself. The load
                  pages quickly and ignore the fluff.
                  Take care and good luck,
                  Stephen

                  On Friday 19 July 2002 16:01, you wrote:
                  > All the html sites said "Make sure it works in old browsers".
                  > So I got one, and it didn't.
                  > I have no way of knowing how many people would be using NS4.
                  (You should have some kind of site stats or logs available, somewhere.)
                  > IE suits me well, but I'd like my pages to look reasonable everywhere.
                  > Thanks.
                  > Fay.
                  >
                  > --
                • Fay
                  Thanks for this informative and encouraging answer, Stephen. We only have possums here to befoul, and the pages weren t that bad, but background colours were
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jul 19, 2002
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                    Thanks for this informative and encouraging answer, Stephen.
                    We only have possums here to befoul, and the pages weren't that bad, but
                    background colours were missing and everything was black and blue on white.
                    Lotta has taken me a long way to correction, and explained that some things
                    aren't possible. I'm well pleased--but gosh I have a lot of correction to
                    do!
                    Cheers, Fay.
                  • Ian Rastall
                    ... One important concept in the world of HTML is that web pages should degrade gracefully. This means that when accomodating something like NS4, you don t
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jul 19, 2002
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                      On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 09:01:25 +1000, you wrote:

                      >All the html sites said "Make sure it works in old browsers".
                      >So I got one, and it didn't.
                      >I have no way of knowing how many people would be using NS4.

                      One important concept in the world of HTML is that web pages should
                      degrade gracefully. This means that when accomodating something like
                      NS4, you don't have to make everything exactly the same, as long as it
                      looks pretty good, and works fine. Not having hover on NS4 is just
                      fine. One thing I like to do is to remove the underline on links, by
                      writing:

                      a {text-decoration: none;}

                      and combined with no hover, sometimes it's hard to see links. But I do
                      it anyway, and I figure most net users are so used to the context of
                      links that they'll have no trouble knowing which is which.

                      There's a movement out there to exclude NS4 from everything. A lot of
                      people now won't code for that browser at all. Some will detect the
                      browser, and if NS4 is detected, the user will be forwarded to a
                      screen telling them to update their browser. That's not terribly fair
                      for people on slow connections, though (especially in under-developed
                      nations). Some people will write the stylesheet without taking NS4
                      into account at all. They'll detect the browser, and if it's NS4, it
                      gets the plain version.

                      I do something different. I use the @import hack. There are different
                      ways of introducing a stylesheet, and one of them is to write:

                      <style type="text/css">
                      @import "foo.css";
                      </style>

                      Every browser recognizes this, *except* NS4. So if you introduce an
                      external stylesheet, like so:

                      <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="foo2.css" />

                      you can make that the stylesheet that Netscape recognizes, and make
                      your @import stylesheet the one that all the other browsers recognize.
                      You put all your main CSS in the Netscape sheet, and then anything
                      that needs to be overridden, you put in the other one. Because
                      style-sheets cascade, anything in @import will take precedence over
                      anything in <link>.

                      Sorry for the long explanation. Hope this helps.

                      Ian
                      --
                      That oughta be like hittin' fungoes
                      with a corked bat. (Nathaniel Ward)

                      http://www.aspipes.org/
                    • loro
                      ... Not really. It also takes care of IE Windows 4 and below. :) http://pixels.pixelpark.com/~koch/hide_css_from_browsers/summary/ Lotta
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jul 19, 2002
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                        At 04:21 2002.07.20, Ian Rastall wrote:
                        ><style type="text/css">
                        >@import "foo.css";
                        ></style>
                        >
                        >Every browser recognizes this, *except* NS4.

                        Not really. It also takes care of IE Windows 4 and below. :)
                        http://pixels.pixelpark.com/~koch/hide_css_from_browsers/summary/

                        Lotta
                      • Ed Brown
                        You should always code for NS 4. The only thing wrong and it is not wrong, with NS 4 is that it demands that your coding be correct. If it is not then the
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jul 19, 2002
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                          You should always code for NS 4. The only thing wrong and it is not wrong,
                          with NS 4 is that it demands that your coding be correct. If it is not then
                          the chances are about 99% you have made mistakes in your coding. The other
                          1% is IE has some coding that works only with it, and so it should probably
                          not be used, only use what works with all browsers as much as possible. In
                          IE 6 the positions are somewhat reversed, I have found it demands more
                          correct coding than it ever did before and NS 6 will work even if you have
                          made some little errors in your coding. Good luck and check your code if it
                          does not work with NS 4.0
                          Ed
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Ian Rastall" <idrastall@...>
                          To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 9:21 PM
                          Subject: Re: [NH] web pages and Netscape


                          On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 09:01:25 +1000, you wrote:

                          >All the html sites said "Make sure it works in old browsers".
                          >So I got one, and it didn't.
                          >I have no way of knowing how many people would be using NS4.

                          One important concept in the world of HTML is that web pages should
                          degrade gracefully. This means that when accomodating something like
                          NS4, you don't have to make everything exactly the same, as long as it
                          looks pretty good, and works fine. Not having hover on NS4 is just
                          fine. One thing I like to do is to remove the underline on links, by
                          writing:

                          a {text-decoration: none;}

                          and combined with no hover, sometimes it's hard to see links. But I do
                          it anyway, and I figure most net users are so used to the context of
                          links that they'll have no trouble knowing which is which.

                          There's a movement out there to exclude NS4 from everything. A lot of
                          people now won't code for that browser at all. Some will detect the
                          browser, and if NS4 is detected, the user will be forwarded to a
                          screen telling them to update their browser. That's not terribly fair
                          for people on slow connections, though (especially in under-developed
                          nations). Some people will write the stylesheet without taking NS4
                          into account at all. They'll detect the browser, and if it's NS4, it
                          gets the plain version.

                          I do something different. I use the @import hack. There are different
                          ways of introducing a stylesheet, and one of them is to write:

                          <style type="text/css">
                          @import "foo.css";
                          </style>

                          Every browser recognizes this, *except* NS4. So if you introduce an
                          external stylesheet, like so:

                          <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="foo2.css" />

                          you can make that the stylesheet that Netscape recognizes, and make
                          your @import stylesheet the one that all the other browsers recognize.
                          You put all your main CSS in the Netscape sheet, and then anything
                          that needs to be overridden, you put in the other one. Because
                          style-sheets cascade, anything in @import will take precedence over
                          anything in <link>.

                          Sorry for the long explanation. Hope this helps.

                          Ian
                          --
                          That oughta be like hittin' fungoes
                          with a corked bat. (Nathaniel Ward)

                          http://www.aspipes.org/




                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • Ian Rastall
                          ... Writing valid HTML is crucial. NS4 doesn t handle CSS very well, though. So if you re working with CSS, especially if you re trying to do a site without
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jul 20, 2002
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                            On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 23:31:45 -0500, you wrote:

                            >You should always code for NS 4. The only thing wrong and it is not wrong,
                            >with NS 4 is that it demands that your coding be correct.

                            Writing valid HTML is crucial. NS4 doesn't handle CSS very well,
                            though. So if you're working with CSS, especially if you're trying to
                            do a site without using tables for layout, you end up having to do
                            workarounds.

                            On the main site that I run, I've managed to use one stylesheet for
                            all the browsers, and that's because I use tables for everything. (I
                            don't see that as very cool, but it's how I got everything to work.)
                            There are a couple things that don't show up in NS4, but the site
                            still works fine.

                            Ian
                            --
                            That oughta be like hittin' fungoes
                            with a corked bat. (Nathaniel Ward)

                            http://www.aspipes.org/
                          • Fay
                            I m getting way behind with acknowledging the reams of help I ve been getting on this question. Some letters I ll have to keep and study later, so that I can
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jul 20, 2002
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                              I'm getting way behind with acknowledging the reams of help I've been
                              getting on this question.
                              Some letters I'll have to keep and study later, so that I can get things
                              working reasonably well asap and then go back and improve.
                              I'm really grateful that so many people have had the kindness to share their
                              knowledge with me, and rest assured that not one word will be wasted. I see
                              there's heaps to learn, but now I have my own personal "manual"! I thank
                              you all very much indeed.
                              Fay
                            • Fay
                              Ian, Long explanations are usually careful and detailed, easier to understand and much appreciated. I ve copied yours into a text file and go over it
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jul 20, 2002
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                                Ian,
                                Long explanations are usually careful and detailed, easier to understand and
                                much appreciated.
                                I've copied yours into a text file and go over it carefully.
                                I'll work on the matter of the two style sheets once I've conquered the
                                earlier steps.
                                I'm glad you think that people with old equipment and software shouldn't be
                                ignored, and my own pride wants it to be that if only six people in the
                                whole world look at my site they'll see the best I can manage.
                                (I haven't a clue what a "fungo" is. Is it a mushroom? Would we have them in
                                Australia?)
                                Thanks,
                                Fay
                              • Ian Rastall
                                ... Thanks. Glad it helped. ... It usually comes into play when you re messing around with CSS, and discovering what works in different browsers. That s just a
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jul 20, 2002
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                                  On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 18:31:48 +1000, you wrote:

                                  >Long explanations are usually careful and detailed, easier to understand and
                                  >much appreciated.

                                  Thanks. Glad it helped.

                                  >I'll work on the matter of the two style sheets once I've conquered the
                                  >earlier steps.

                                  It usually comes into play when you're messing around with CSS, and
                                  discovering what works in different browsers. That's just a technique
                                  that will allow you to do two things at the same time, which saves a
                                  lot of headache.

                                  >(I haven't a clue what a "fungo" is. Is it a mushroom? Would we have them in
                                  >Australia?)

                                  I don't know what that means either. That's why I think it's so funny.
                                  :)

                                  Ian
                                  --
                                  That oughta be like hittin' fungoes
                                  with a corked bat. (Nathaniel Ward)

                                  http://www.aspipes.org/
                                • Ed Brown
                                  ... From: Ian Rastall To: Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 2:58 AM Subject: Re: [NH] web pages and Netscape
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jul 20, 2002
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                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Ian Rastall" <idrastall@...>
                                    To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 2:58 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [NH] web pages and Netscape


                                    On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 23:31:45 -0500, you wrote:

                                    >You should always code for NS 4. The only thing wrong and it is not wrong,
                                    >with NS 4 is that it demands that your coding be correct.

                                    Writing valid HTML is crucial. NS4 doesn't handle CSS very well,
                                    though. So if you're working with CSS, especially if you're trying to
                                    do a site without using tables for layout, you end up having to do
                                    workarounds.

                                    On the main site that I run, I've managed to use one stylesheet for
                                    all the browsers, and that's because I use tables for everything. (I
                                    don't see that as very cool, but it's how I got everything to work.)
                                    There are a couple things that don't show up in NS4, but the site
                                    still works fine.

                                    Ian
                                    --
                                    But there is many thousands still using NS 4. the question becomes do you
                                    want them to read your pages?? Perhaps not. I do. I will use CSS and
                                    still try to make the changes in styles that NS 4 can use or avoid styles
                                    altogether on some pages. In many 3rd world countries they who have the
                                    least pay more to get on the internet. In fact in some of the richer
                                    countries people pay by the minute. Do you want them to see your pages?
                                    This means the simplest designs will reach the most people. It seems that
                                    simply design loads faster, prints better and the information is available
                                    faster, so CSS is not the answer in many cases at least at the present time.
                                    If you are working in a corporation and only trying to reach those on a
                                    closed circuit and the capability is there for them to read your page then
                                    you can do whatever seems good. I design for the masses and try to avoid
                                    using anything that would slow down page loading including photos. I use
                                    photos and lots of them, but I let people know this is a page with images so
                                    that they can skip those. But every situation is different. If you design
                                    only for a few segments of the population of the world then you do what is
                                    best to reach those people. Or you can make two, three or even four
                                    different pages and according to the browser send them to a page that they
                                    can easily view. So as long as your site works fine for the few people that
                                    you want to view your site, that is good, but remember it does not work
                                    fine for those using NS 4, or 3. And I think maybe, there are still some
                                    using NS 2. Does it work fine for reader browsers? And how does the large
                                    population of males that are color blind see your site?
                                    Ed
                                  • Don Passenger
                                    So @import is an external stylesheet, given local stylesheet precedence? ... I like to code to ns4 because at least until lately there were still a fair
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jul 20, 2002
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                                      So @import is an external stylesheet, given local stylesheet precedence?

                                      > <style type="text/css">
                                      > @import "foo.css";
                                      > </style>

                                      I like to code to ns4 because at least until lately there were still a fair
                                      percentage of users on it. Although now with Opera (which is also picky in
                                      some ways -- or correct to standards if you prefer) and both 6.2 and 7.0 ns
                                      out there, I think ns4 is beginning to slip away pretty fast. Some of the
                                      reading I have been doing now suggests three sets of styles if you are doing
                                      multiple styles. I personally try to avoid that, prefering to compromise
                                      all a little in the interest of simplicity. Others may have more time or a
                                      programmer on staff 8^)
                                    • Ian Rastall
                                      ... Ed, I get the feeling you re arguing with me. I m not going to do that. Ian -- That oughta be like hittin fungoes with a corked bat. (Nathaniel Ward)
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jul 20, 2002
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                                        On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 07:56:11 -0500, you wrote:

                                        >But there is many thousands still using NS 4. the question becomes do you
                                        >want them to read your pages?? Perhaps not. I do.

                                        Ed, I get the feeling you're arguing with me. I'm not going to do
                                        that.

                                        Ian
                                        --
                                        That oughta be like hittin' fungoes
                                        with a corked bat. (Nathaniel Ward)

                                        http://www.aspipes.org/
                                      • hsavage
                                        ... them in ... Hi, For purposes of enlightenment, which is what these lists are about. hrs ... http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=fungo fun·go
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jul 20, 2002
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                                          > Fay wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Ian,
                                          > I've copied yours into a text file and go over it carefully.
                                          > I'll work on the matter of the two style sheets once I've conquered the
                                          > earlier steps.

                                          > (I haven't a clue what a "fungo" is. Is it a mushroom? Would we have
                                          them in
                                          > Australia?)
                                          > Thanks,
                                          > Fay
                                          >

                                          Hi,

                                          For purposes of enlightenment, which is what these lists are about.

                                          hrs

                                          ----------
                                          http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=fungo

                                          fun·go Pronunciation Key (fngg) - the key didn't travel well.
                                          n. Baseball pl. fun·goes

                                          A fly ball hit for fielding practice by a player who tosses the ball up
                                          and hits it on its way down with a long, thin, light bat.

                                          [Origin unknown.]
                                          ------------
                                        • loro
                                          ... It happens on the spot you put it, so to speak. The way the above is written, yes it would get the dignity of an embedded style sheet. If you import a
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jul 20, 2002
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                                            At 15:34 2002.07.20, Don Passenger wrote:
                                            >So @import is an external stylesheet, given local stylesheet precedence?
                                            >
                                            > > <style type="text/css">
                                            > > @import "foo.css";
                                            > > </style>


                                            It happens on the spot you put it, so to speak. The way the above is
                                            written, yes it would get the dignity of an embedded style sheet. If you
                                            import a style sheet into another CSS document it would be the same as
                                            writing it at the top of that document in the first place.

                                            Lotta
                                          • loro
                                            ... Ahem, the OP asked about CSS. There is everything wrong with Netscape 4 when it comes to CSS. Hiding the CSS it can t handle, as someone suggested, is a
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jul 20, 2002
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                                              At 06:31 2002.07.20, Ed Brown wrote:
                                              >You should always code for NS 4. The only thing wrong and it is not wrong,
                                              >with NS 4 is that it demands that your coding be correct.

                                              Ahem, the OP asked about CSS. There is everything wrong with Netscape 4
                                              when it comes to CSS. Hiding the CSS it can't handle, as someone
                                              suggested, is a way of protecting it from getting a totally unreadable
                                              document. It doesn't mean it won't get the content. It will, just more
                                              plain looking.

                                              Netscape this and IE that. That isn't what this is about. Sigh.

                                              Lotta
                                            • Ian Rastall
                                              ... Yeah, from what I understand. It s CSS1. So it s been in there from the beginning. It s just that nobody uses it. I mean, why bother, if you can choose
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jul 20, 2002
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                                                On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 09:34:51 -0400, you wrote:

                                                >So @import is an external stylesheet, given local stylesheet precedence?

                                                Yeah, from what I understand. It's CSS1. So it's been in there from
                                                the beginning. It's just that nobody uses it. I mean, why bother, if
                                                you can choose between <link> and an inline style sheet.

                                                What I use it for is if I have one or two problems that can't be
                                                worked out with all browsers. (I'm talking CSS problems.) That second
                                                style sheet (the @import one) only needs to contain a couple things.
                                                Say you want to use absolute positioning, but you can't do that with
                                                NS4 because its support is so buggy. You can use "float", for
                                                instance, in your regular stylesheet, and then write in your second
                                                sheet:

                                                div.foo {float: none ! important; position: absolute; left: foopx;
                                                top: foopx;}

                                                and in that way, you've just used two different ways of positioning
                                                your div's, and it works across browsers. And I don't think the
                                                "important" part is needed, but I guess it pays to be careful. Anyone
                                                who tries to go "table-less" either has to use @import or just not
                                                code for Netscape, because using CSS for layout is pretty much
                                                impossible when the support is so buggy.

                                                I tried slogging through the W3C CSS1 page a while back, and gave up.
                                                They talk about inheritance on there, and I wouldn't be surprised if
                                                inline style over-rides @import, though why you would need 3
                                                stylesheets I have no idea.

                                                Ian
                                                --
                                                That oughta be like hittin' fungoes
                                                with a corked bat. (Nathaniel Ward)

                                                http://www.aspipes.org/
                                              • Ian Rastall
                                                ... That just about made my day. :) Ian -- That oughta be like hittin fungoes with a corked bat. (Nathaniel Ward) http://www.aspipes.org/
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jul 20, 2002
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                                                  On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 09:38:21 -0500, you wrote:

                                                  >fun·go Pronunciation Key (fngg) - the key didn't travel well.
                                                  >n. Baseball pl. fun·goes
                                                  >
                                                  >A fly ball hit for fielding practice by a player who tosses the ball up
                                                  >and hits it on its way down with a long, thin, light bat.

                                                  That just about made my day. :)

                                                  Ian
                                                  --
                                                  That oughta be like hittin' fungoes
                                                  with a corked bat. (Nathaniel Ward)

                                                  http://www.aspipes.org/
                                                • loro
                                                  ... Hey Stephen, where can I download that Etch-a-Sketch? It sounds like the thing I need right now and I promise that I ll at least try it once before I tell
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jul 20, 2002
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                                                    At 01:55 2002.07.19, stephen riddle wrote:
                                                    >Hover will not work in Netscape four, but then again it's a product from
                                                    >before hover was invented. Hover also does not work on an Etcha-a-Sketch.
                                                    >Think I'll start hating Etcha-a-Sketches!
                                                    >Almost everything works on Netscape 6.
                                                    >Good thing some folks actually try it.
                                                    >Good Luck,
                                                    >Stephen

                                                    Hey Stephen, where can I download that Etch-a-Sketch? It sounds like the
                                                    thing I need right now and I promise that I'll at least try it once before
                                                    I tell newbies that it sucks.


                                                    Lotta
                                                  • Ed Brown
                                                    No, not arguing, just not getting all my ducks in a row, but Adam Weston said it perfectly. Thanks Adam. Ed ... From: Ian Rastall
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jul 20, 2002
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                                                      No, not arguing, just not getting all my ducks in a row, but Adam Weston
                                                      said it perfectly. Thanks Adam.
                                                      Ed
                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: "Ian Rastall" <idrastall@...>
                                                      To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 9:10 AM
                                                      Subject: Re: [NH] web pages and Netscape


                                                      On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 07:56:11 -0500, you wrote:

                                                      >But there is many thousands still using NS 4. the question becomes do you
                                                      >want them to read your pages?? Perhaps not. I do.

                                                      Ed, I get the feeling you're arguing with me. I'm not going to do
                                                      that.

                                                      Ian
                                                      --
                                                      That oughta be like hittin' fungoes
                                                      with a corked bat. (Nathaniel Ward)

                                                      http://www.aspipes.org/




                                                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                    • Ian Rastall
                                                      ... That s interesting. I ll bet there s still people using IE 4.x, although I never take it into consideration. Probably the most common thing is to just use
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jul 21, 2002
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                                                        On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 05:01:37 +0200, loro <loro@...> wrote:

                                                        >http://pixels.pixelpark.com/~koch/hide_css_from_browsers/summary/

                                                        That's interesting. I'll bet there's still people using IE 4.x,
                                                        although I never take it into consideration. Probably the most common
                                                        thing is to just use whatever browser came with your operating system.
                                                        I doubt most people actually download browsers at all. Many people
                                                        don't even know how to download.

                                                        Does anyone here code for the AOL browser? Is that just Netscape?

                                                        Ian
                                                        --
                                                        That oughta be like hittin' fungoes
                                                        with a corked bat. (Nathaniel Ward)

                                                        http://www.aspipes.org/
                                                      • loro
                                                        ... According to the often cited but probably not reliable stats of companies like thecounter Netscape4 has 4% and IE4 3%...
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jul 21, 2002
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                                                          At 16:25 2002.07.21, Ian Rastall wrote:
                                                          >On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 05:01:37 +0200, loro <loro@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > >http://pixels.pixelpark.com/~koch/hide_css_from_browsers/summary/
                                                          >
                                                          >That's interesting. I'll bet there's still people using IE 4.x,

                                                          According to the often cited but probably not reliable stats of companies
                                                          like thecounter Netscape4 has 4% and IE4 3%...
                                                          http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2002/May/browser.php

                                                          I think the reason that everyone's concern is Netscape 4 and not old
                                                          browsers in general is partly due to the fact that many companies and
                                                          institutions standardized on that browsers long ago and they often don't
                                                          see a reason to change. IE4 is probably almost exclusively in private use.
                                                          But I'm guessing about that.

                                                          Another reason is of course that it's easy to test in Netscape of any
                                                          version on Windows but not so easy with IE if you don't have the resources
                                                          needed to set up several OS or buy one of those Virtual PC thingies. Same
                                                          with Mac and *nix browsers.

                                                          >Does anyone here code for the AOL browser? Is that just Netscape?

                                                          Last I heard the Gecko was beta tested. So there is IE AOL and Gecko AOL.
                                                          As I've heard the only problem is that image compression they are playing
                                                          with though.

                                                          Hey, I just downloaded a WebTV emulator. It's fun - and better than I
                                                          though. :p

                                                          Lotta
                                                        • stephen riddle
                                                          Hi All, I had something very witty to say, can t remember what it was, but yes, the AOL users are among the most problematic. AOL still does some rather odd
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jul 21, 2002
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                                                            Hi All,
                                                            I had something very witty to say, can't remember what it was, but yes, the
                                                            AOL users are among the most problematic. AOL still does some rather odd
                                                            things to web pages. Last I heard, AOL/Macintosh users had the most problems,
                                                            but anyone with a computer more than a year or two old using AOL, may be
                                                            having a browser that just barely does JavaScript and probably not CSS.
                                                            To check AOL out, go to aol.com and click webmaster info. You can browse to
                                                            a table which lists the AOL browsers currently in use. The range from IE3 to
                                                            IE5.5. I had heard that they used Netscape, but it does not look like it
                                                            (even though they own Netscape.) However, only 20% of their users have the
                                                            latest browser (IE6.6). 25% use IE5.0.
                                                            AOL also uses a proxy cache to control and manage their users internet use.
                                                            (Yes, they "guide" thier users, but you'll notice that hardly ever does spam
                                                            come from an AOL user.) This can do wierd things with graphics, but in
                                                            general should not cause intrinsic rendering dificulties.
                                                            T'care,
                                                            Stephen
                                                            > Does anyone here code for the AOL browser? Is that just Netscape?
                                                            >
                                                            > Ian
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