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Re: [NH] print

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  • ARTIS
    Hi Hugo, sorry I was refering to Netscape Comunicator. I simply include my STYLE in the header of each page. If you or anyone will have a look at an example at
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 26, 2002
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      Hi Hugo, sorry I was refering to Netscape Comunicator. I simply include my
      STYLE in the header of each page. If you or anyone will have a look at an
      example at http://www.shopin.co.nz/index.htm and let me know if I'm doing
      something wrong, be most grateful,
      Neil
      ps.. do I need something like the line you provided.. LINK=

      hpaulissen wrote:

      > > I am using NC 4.5 with text size set in style sheet, but printing
      > > through browser print option, sizes are ignored. Is this normal.
      > Am I
      > > missing something?
      > > Any help
      > > Neil
      >
      > Hi Neil,
      >
      > NC 4.5 - Is that NetCaptor? I don't use that, so I cannot give you
      > any advise on that.
      >
      > I'm not sure, but maybe your stylesheet(s) are linked to certain
      > media only ? ...
      >
      > <LINK REL=StyleSheet HREF="print.css" TYPE="text/css" MEDIA=print>
      > <LINK REL=StyleSheet HREF="esst2.css" TYPE="text/css" MEDIA=screen>
      >
      > Hugo
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • ARTIS
      ... Looks fine in Netscape, Lotta, as I set the main text for body, p, and td. Unfortunately I am not able to view it in other browsers at present. Thanks for
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 27, 2002
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        Lotta wrote:

        > I don't know if this affects your printing problem, but I'm wondering if
        > you have looked at the page in another browser? If you intend the text to
        > be the size you see in Netscape I'm afraid I must tell you the main text is
        > itsy-bitsy in other browsers. Because of a bug in Netscape4x the font-size
        > for body doesn't inherit into tables.........

        Looks fine in Netscape, Lotta, as I set the main text for body, p, and td.
        Unfortunately I am not able to view it in other browsers at present.
        Thanks for the input
        Neil



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • ARTIS
        ... Can you tell me more about the MEDIA property, as regards printing web pages, or point me to where I can read about it, hpaulissen ... [Non-text portions
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 27, 2002
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          hpaulissen wrote:

          >
          > That's what I used to do as well, until I found out about the MEDIA
          > property....

          Can you tell me more about the MEDIA property, as regards printing web pages,
          or point me to where I can read about it, hpaulissen

          > Neil
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • ARTIS
          Ah! thank you Lotta, I understand. So, if I change my font sizes to px for body, p and td this should remedy Netscapes problem and still make sense to other
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 27, 2002
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            Ah! thank you Lotta, I understand. So, if I change my font sizes to "px" for body,
            p and td this should remedy Netscapes problem and still make sense to other
            browsers. Is this correct?
            Neil
            ps can you explain what DEFANGED is about?
            Ta.

            Lotta wrote:

            > >Looks fine in Netscape, Lotta, as I set the main text for body, p, and td.
            > >Unfortunately I am not able to view it in other browsers at present.
            >
            > Yes, that's what I meant. It looks good in Netscape. Unfortunately Netscape
            > gets it wrong. The browsers that get it right shows very small text for
            > your paragraphs. I've never printed from Netscape so I don't know how/if
            > this affects it.
            >
            > You have this rule:
            > body, p, td {font-family: verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 75%;}
            >
            > A percentage value for font size is relative the font size of the parent
            > element. Not the browser's default size. So what you are saying here is:
            >
            > Make text in BODY 75% of the browser's default font size.
            > Make text in TD 75% if the text size in BODY. Which means (0.75*0.75) 52%
            > of the browser's default size.
            > Make text in a P within a TD (0.75*0.75*075) 42% of the browser's default size.
            >
            > And that's how more modern browsers display it. A bug in Netscape4.x causes
            > properties to (mostly) not be inherited into tables. So in Netscape the
            > font size in your paragraphs is 52% while it in other browsers is 42%.
            > That's small. ;)
            >
            > You can see this even in Netscape4x if you try the following. The text size
            > in each DIV will be 75% of the size of the parent DIV.
            >
            > <head>
            > <title></title>
            > <!-- <DEFANGED_STYLE type="text/css">
            > <!--
            > div { font-size: 75% }
            > -->
            > --> </DEFANGED_STYLE>
            > </head>
            >
            > <div>
            > Yadda yadda
            > <div>
            > Yadda yadda
            > <div>
            > Yadda yadda
            > </div></div></div>
            >
            > </body>
            >
            > Lotta
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • ARTIS
            .........John & Lotta Thanks John, I have had a wee look and bookmarked media.htm for ... soon... Thanks Lotta, looks OK eh, if only you could read it!!!!!!!
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 27, 2002
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              .........John & Lotta
              Thanks John, I have had a wee look and bookmarked media.htm for ... soon...
              Thanks Lotta, looks OK eh, if only you could read it!!!!!!!
              Yes I did change that page, several others to do too, when I get my head around
              which is the best option. Might put them in px for meantime. Other work calling
              right now....
              Cheers
              Neil


              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • ARTIS
              Lotta, I haven t gone yet... Just reread your suggestion about puting all in p, setting the basic % or em size there. And I am familiar with using classes for
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 27, 2002
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                Lotta, I haven't gone yet...
                Just reread your suggestion about puting all in p, setting the basic % or em
                size there. And I am familiar with using classes for snips inbetween. Do you
                think it is better to go that way than use a fixed size like pixels? I'm one of
                these people who likes to know why then bingo! If you have the time.
                Ta
                Neil

                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • john041650
                Hi Neil, IMHO Getting an html document to print consistently on all machines viewing it, is about like trying to catch a greased pig.. No matter what you do
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 27, 2002
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                  Hi Neil,

                  IMHO Getting an html document to print consistently on all machines viewing it, is about like trying to catch a greased pig.. No matter what you do in your CSS or html, it comes down to the browser and computer configuration of the machine looking at the web page.

                  When I want to make a web page printable, I do one of two things.. 1. I create a second version of that page that is stripped of all excess graphics and colors, and put a link to it called "Click here for a printable version of this page".. 2. Or I'll convert the html page into an Adobe Acrobat document.

                  John


                  --- In ntb-html@y..., ARTIS <artis@a...> wrote:
                  > Hi Hugo, sorry I was refering to Netscape Comunicator. I simply include my
                  > STYLE in the header of each page. If you or anyone will have a look at an
                  > example at http://www.shopin.co.nz/index.htm and let me know if I'm doing
                  > something wrong, be most grateful,
                  > Neil
                  > ps.. do I need something like the line you provided.. LINK=
                  >
                  > hpaulissen wrote:
                  >
                  > > > I am using NC 4.5 with text size set in style sheet, but printing
                  > > > through browser print option, sizes are ignored. Is this normal.
                  > > Am I
                  > > > missing something?
                  > > > Any help
                  > > > Neil
                  > >
                  > > Hi Neil,
                  > >
                  > > NC 4.5 - Is that NetCaptor? I don't use that, so I cannot give you
                  > > any advise on that.
                  > >
                  > > I'm not sure, but maybe your stylesheet(s) are linked to certain
                  > > media only ? ...
                  > >
                  > > <LINK REL=StyleSheet HREF="print.css" TYPE="text/css" MEDIA=print>
                  > > <LINK REL=StyleSheet HREF="esst2.css" TYPE="text/css" MEDIA=screen>
                  > >
                  > > Hugo
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Lotta
                  Hi Niel, ... I don t know if this affects your printing problem, but I m wondering if you have looked at the page in another browser? If you intend the text to
                  Message 8 of 19 , Feb 27, 2002
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                    Hi Niel,

                    >I am using NC 4.5 with text size set in style sheet, but printing
                    >through browser print option, sizes are ignored. Is this normal. Am I
                    >missing something?

                    I don't know if this affects your printing problem, but I'm wondering if
                    you have looked at the page in another browser? If you intend the text to
                    be the size you see in Netscape I'm afraid I must tell you the main text is
                    itsy-bitsy in other browsers. Because of a bug in Netscape4x the font-size
                    for body doesn't inherit into tables. I'm sorry if I'm barking up the wrong
                    tree and this is how you intend it to be. If not, just holler if you want
                    the long story. ;)

                    Lotta
                  • ARTIS
                    Thanks Lotta, The pixel sizing didn t fix the print problem but I m having some success with printing using @media print , from the link John gave me -
                    Message 9 of 19 , Feb 27, 2002
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                      Thanks Lotta,
                      The pixel sizing didn't fix the print problem but I'm having some success with
                      printing using "@media print", from the link John gave me -
                      http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/media.html
                      Neil

                      > Ouch! I don't know if a dare to answer this. It's a topic that causes WAR
                      > on some lists...


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • hpaulissen
                      Neil, ... I just saw you use an internal stylesheet, and then the answer is No, but if you re working with external stylesheets you should use something like
                      Message 10 of 19 , Feb 27, 2002
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                        Neil,

                        >ps.. do I need something like the line you provided.. LINK=

                        I just saw you use an internal stylesheet, and then the answer is No,
                        but if you're working with external stylesheets you should use
                        something like ...

                        <head>
                        <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="style.css">
                        </head>

                        Looking at your page I couldn't really find what your problem exactly
                        is...

                        Sorry,

                        Hugo
                      • hpaulissen
                        Hi john041650, ... 1. I create a second version of that page that is stripped of all excess graphics and colors, and put a link to it called Click here for a
                        Message 11 of 19 , Feb 27, 2002
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                          Hi john041650,


                          > When I want to make a web page printable, I do one of two things..
                          1. I create a second version of that page that is stripped of all
                          excess graphics and colors, and put a link to it called "Click here
                          for a printable version of this page"..

                          That's what I used to do as well, until I found out about the MEDIA
                          property. You can set your own rules (fonts, size, width etc.) for
                          different media, and (more interesting, leave complete secions out of
                          the page that needs to be printed, such as navigation elements); in
                          other words: I have quite some control over what will be sent to the
                          printer. I've seen an example that linked to a .DOC-file in the HREF -
                          which comes down to redirecting the print to a WORD-file.

                          I know, I do rely heavily on users with CSS-capable browsers, but in
                          my situation I know most of the visitors to websites I create have a
                          recent version of IE.

                          Regards,

                          Hugo

                          > > > <LINK REL=StyleSheet HREF="print.css" TYPE="text/css"
                          MEDIA=print>
                          > > > <LINK REL=StyleSheet HREF="esst2.css" TYPE="text/css"
                          MEDIA=screen>
                          > > >
                        • Lotta
                          ... Yes, that s what I meant. It looks good in Netscape. Unfortunately Netscape gets it wrong. The browsers that get it right shows very small text for your
                          Message 12 of 19 , Feb 27, 2002
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                            >Looks fine in Netscape, Lotta, as I set the main text for body, p, and td.
                            >Unfortunately I am not able to view it in other browsers at present.

                            Yes, that's what I meant. It looks good in Netscape. Unfortunately Netscape
                            gets it wrong. The browsers that get it right shows very small text for
                            your paragraphs. I've never printed from Netscape so I don't know how/if
                            this affects it.

                            You have this rule:
                            body, p, td {font-family: verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 75%;}

                            A percentage value for font size is relative the font size of the parent
                            element. Not the browser's default size. So what you are saying here is:

                            Make text in BODY 75% of the browser's default font size.
                            Make text in TD 75% if the text size in BODY. Which means (0.75*0.75) 52%
                            of the browser's default size.
                            Make text in a P within a TD (0.75*0.75*075) 42% of the browser's default size.

                            And that's how more modern browsers display it. A bug in Netscape4.x causes
                            properties to (mostly) not be inherited into tables. So in Netscape the
                            font size in your paragraphs is 52% while it in other browsers is 42%.
                            That's small. ;)

                            You can see this even in Netscape4x if you try the following. The text size
                            in each DIV will be 75% of the size of the parent DIV.

                            <head>
                            <title></title>
                            <style type="text/css">
                            <!--
                            div { font-size: 75% }
                            -->
                            </style>
                            </head>

                            <div>
                            Yadda yadda
                            <div>
                            Yadda yadda
                            <div>
                            Yadda yadda
                            </div></div></div>

                            </body>

                            Lotta
                          • Lotta
                            Niel, ... Yes, but you can still use %. Personally I use em a lot (which is in practice the same as % when it comes to font sizes). I almost always have text
                            Message 13 of 19 , Feb 27, 2002
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                              Niel,

                              >Ah! thank you Lotta, I understand. So, if I change my font sizes to "px"
                              >for body,
                              >p and td this should remedy Netscapes problem and still make sense to other
                              >browsers. Is this correct?

                              Yes, but you can still use %. Personally I use em a lot (which is in
                              practice the same as % when it comes to font sizes). I almost always have
                              text in paragraphs, so for me it's easy. I set the size for P (and headings
                              and so on of course). It's no problem to use % for a snip within a P as
                              long as one keeps in mind that it's now relative the size one has already
                              given the P.

                              The trick is to never by mistake set a size in % or em for two elements of
                              which one is the others parent . Find the lowest common denominator. (Geez,
                              did that even make sense?)

                              Another solution is to use classes. This would work for instance
                              (assuming what you _really_ want is 75%).

                              .smaller { font-size: 75% }

                              <td class="smaller">
                              Yadda yadda
                              </td><td>
                              <p class="smaller">
                              Yadda yadda</p>
                              </td>

                              I'll send you a screen shot of your page as I see it. Oh, and please tell
                              us if this affects how the page prints. It would be interesting to know
                              (and to lazy to do it myself).

                              Lotta
                            • john041650
                              Excellent point there Hugo.. As I rarely have to be concerned about printing one of my web pages, I hadn t looked into that option before.. But I can
                              Message 14 of 19 , Feb 27, 2002
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                                Excellent point there Hugo.. As I rarely have to be concerned about printing one of my web pages, I hadn't looked into that option before.. But I can certainly see the usefulness of this, especially with the newer browsers.. I've just now rewritten my clip for linking to external stylesheets to include a media choice, thanks..

                                By the way, you can disregard the email I sent you earlier, I figured out what I was asking you..

                                John :)


                                --- In ntb-html@y..., "hpaulissen" <h.paulissen@f...> wrote:
                                > That's what I used to do as well, until I found out about the MEDIA
                                > property. You can set your own rules (fonts, size, width etc.) for
                                > different media, and (more interesting, leave complete secions out of
                                > the page that needs to be printed, such as navigation elements); in
                                > other words: I have quite some control over what will be sent to the
                                > printer. I've seen an example that linked to a .DOC-file in the HREF -
                                > which comes down to redirecting the print to a WORD-file.
                                >
                                > I know, I do rely heavily on users with CSS-capable browsers, but in
                                > my situation I know most of the visitors to websites I create have a
                                > recent version of IE.
                                >
                                > Regards,
                                >
                                > Hugo
                                >
                                > > > > <LINK REL=StyleSheet HREF="print.css" TYPE="text/css"
                                > MEDIA=print>
                                > > > > <LINK REL=StyleSheet HREF="esst2.css" TYPE="text/css"
                                > MEDIA=screen>
                                > > > >
                              • john041650
                                I can answer this for you Neil, as I just left that site: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/media.html Bear in mind, this is for the newer browsers... John :)
                                Message 15 of 19 , Feb 27, 2002
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                                  I can answer this for you Neil, as I just left that site:

                                  http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/media.html


                                  Bear in mind, this is for the newer browsers...

                                  John :)



                                  --- In ntb-html@y..., ARTIS <artis@a...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Can you tell me more about the MEDIA property, as regards printing web pages,
                                  > or point me to where I can read about it, hpaulissen
                                • Lotta
                                  ... Ouch! I don t know if a dare to answer this. It s a topic that causes WAR on some lists. But if you force me, well, em or % for the main text at least.
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Feb 27, 2002
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                                    >Just reread your suggestion about puting all in p, setting the basic % or em
                                    >size there. And I am familiar with using classes for snips inbetween. Do you
                                    >think it is better to go that way than use a fixed size like pixels? I'm
                                    >one of
                                    >these people who likes to know why then bingo! If you have the time.

                                    Ouch! I don't know if a dare to answer this. It's a topic that causes WAR
                                    on some lists. But if you force me, well, em or % for the main text at
                                    least. That's because I think font size should be relative to the reader's
                                    preferred size and be possible to resize in the browser. Pixels can't be
                                    resized in most browsers, among them IE5x

                                    There are as many people that swear by pixels though. Some of them because
                                    they like control and precise layout and others because em and % has had
                                    poorer support and been buggy earlier. I think it's IE3 that renders them
                                    as pixels. That's small! ;) But there must be a limit somewhere. Mine
                                    definitely is NS4 or rather a little to this side of it.

                                    It's up to what you want. But you started with % so I guess you like it. :)
                                    Here's an (lengthy) article that speaks for pixels. It's a little old, but
                                    explains the problems.
                                    http://www.alistapart.com/stories/fear4/

                                    Lotta
                                  • Greg Chapman
                                    Hi Neil, ... Probably! Netscape s appalling Style Sheet support. See: http://developer.netscape.com/support/bugs/known/css.html which is horse s mouth We ve
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Feb 28, 2002
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                                      Hi Neil,

                                      > I am using NC 4.5 with text size set in style sheet, but printing
                                      > through browser print option, sizes are ignored. Is this normal. Am I
                                      > missing something?

                                      Probably! Netscape's appalling Style Sheet support.

                                      See: http://developer.netscape.com/support/bugs/known/css.html

                                      which is horse's mouth "We've got a lousy product" stuff!

                                      Greg
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