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[NH] Re: Different browsers

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  • john041650
    Forgive my ignorance if you will.. But what does any of this recent exchange have to do with NoteTab? John :)
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 18, 2002
      Forgive my ignorance if you will..

      But what does any of this recent exchange have to do with NoteTab?

      John :)




      --- In ntb-html@y..., Scott Fordin <sfordin@o...> wrote:
      > I promise I won't say any more about this...
      >
      > Jeff Burrows wrote:
      >
      > > IE (4+) has been the best browser
      > > platform, by far, for creating interactive pages and web-based
      > > applications.
      >
      >
      > If you don't mind massive security holes and Windows-only
      > operating systems.
      >
      > > The standards have been trying to keep up with
      > > IE, and they have adopted almost everything that IE has had
      > > the research and development money to create and introduce.
      >
      >
      > The point is that HTML is an *open* standard. That means
      > no single company owns it. Microsoft, by pushing proprietary
      > extensions -- and now excluding things like Java, QuickTime,
      > and Netscape-style plugins -- is trying to usurp the platform-
      > neutral standard and turn it into something proprietary. If
      > Microsoft can own HTML, then they own e-commerce and can
      > dictate the directions content can go -- and charge for it
      > every step of the way. This a Bad Thing.
      >
      > It's always easier to make whiz-bang stuff on a single
      > closed system. It takes more work -- and more cross-industry
      > cooperation -- to make stuff that's scalable and flexible.
      >
      >
      > > Just like so many other things in life, if we always aim for
      > > the lowest common denominator.
      >
      >
      > Cooperation, in the long run, makes for better, more stable
      > products.
      >
      > Now, if I may move away from philosophy and speak in
      > practical terms, there are people who <gasp> don't use
      > IE6 or IE5.5 or even IE5. 20% of millions may seem to
      > you to be statistically insignificant, but numerically
      > it's still a heck of a lot of people. Then there are the
      > people who are, say, vision-impaired, for whom many of
      > those whiz-bang features you adore are totally useless
      > at best. As much as you may want everyone to be in the
      > "fast lane" as described by Microsoft, the fact is *most*
      > people are not using the latest and, er, greatest. The
      > sign of a good developer is one whose products degrade
      > gracefully to operate on as wide a range hardware and
      > software as possible.
      >
      > Best regards,
      >
      > Scott
      > "Lambs turn into sheep when they enter the voting booth."
    • Jeff Burrows
      Didn t mean to cause a heated conflict, but I do think this is an important issue. I think my view is due, in part, to the fact that I develop mostly for
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 18, 2002
        Didn't mean to cause a heated conflict, but I do think this
        is an important issue.

        I think my view is due, in part, to the fact that I develop
        mostly for business users rather than casual users or general
        consumers. I don't care about "whiz" or "bang" unless it will
        make me or my customers more money (and then I would suggest
        Flash).

        One thing that might help everyone dealing with this question
        is better statistics. Scott mentions that 20% of people use
        something other than IE 5,5.5, or 6. That may be true, but
        where do you get that stat? If we add in NS 4.7 or higher,
        amd IE 4 what percentage are we up to?

        I would direct people to:
        http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2002/February/browser.php
        This counts all the visitors to the Internet.com family of
        sites (about 300 Million hits a month) and this shows
        IE5.x 62%, IE6.x 25%, IE4.x 4% (that's 91%) and then
        NS4.x 4% and NSother 1% The rest are all less than 1%.

        Another is:
        http://webdesign.about.com/msubstats.htm
        This shows a very different view. With all IE at 62.7%,
        all NS at 17.6%, and Opera with a surprising 11.4%

        Another is:
        http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat.htm
        Which has three sources that all line up almost exactly
        with my first example from Internet.com (though thay are
        all different sources)

        If anyone know good/better sources, please share!

        Cooperation is good and I see a lot of it. However, without
        the profit motive and, yes, <gasp> greed, not much would get
        done. Open standards are great if there is a payoff in terms
        of dollars instead of just a group hug...


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Scott Fordin [mailto:sfordin@...]
        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 9:37 PM
        To: ntb-html@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [NH] Re: Different browsers


        I promise I won't say any more about this...

        Jeff Burrows wrote:

        > IE (4+) has been the best browser
        > platform, by far, for creating interactive pages and web-based
        > applications.


        If you don't mind massive security holes and Windows-only
        operating systems.

        > The standards have been trying to keep up with
        > IE, and they have adopted almost everything that IE has had
        > the research and development money to create and introduce.


        The point is that HTML is an *open* standard. That means
        no single company owns it. Microsoft, by pushing proprietary
        extensions -- and now excluding things like Java, QuickTime,
        and Netscape-style plugins -- is trying to usurp the platform-
        neutral standard and turn it into something proprietary. If
        Microsoft can own HTML, then they own e-commerce and can
        dictate the directions content can go -- and charge for it
        every step of the way. This a Bad Thing.

        It's always easier to make whiz-bang stuff on a single
        closed system. It takes more work -- and more cross-industry
        cooperation -- to make stuff that's scalable and flexible.


        > Just like so many other things in life, if we always aim for
        > the lowest common denominator.


        Cooperation, in the long run, makes for better, more stable
        products.

        Now, if I may move away from philosophy and speak in
        practical terms, there are people who <gasp> don't use
        IE6 or IE5.5 or even IE5. 20% of millions may seem to
        you to be statistically insignificant, but numerically
        it's still a heck of a lot of people. Then there are the
        people who are, say, vision-impaired, for whom many of
        those whiz-bang features you adore are totally useless
        at best. As much as you may want everyone to be in the
        "fast lane" as described by Microsoft, the fact is *most*
        people are not using the latest and, er, greatest. The
        sign of a good developer is one whose products degrade
        gracefully to operate on as wide a range hardware and
        software as possible.

        Best regards,

        Scott
        "Lambs turn into sheep when they enter the voting booth."





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      • paul
        ... From: Jeff Burrows To: Sent: 19 February 2002 04:00 Subject: RE: [NH] Re: Different browsers ... i
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 19, 2002
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Jeff Burrows" <jeffb2nd@...>
          To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: 19 February 2002 04:00
          Subject: RE: [NH] Re: Different browsers

          > One thing that might help everyone dealing with this question
          > is better statistics. Scott mentions that 20% of people use
          > something other than IE 5,5.5, or 6. That may be true, but
          > where do you get that stat? If we add in NS 4.7 or higher,
          > amd IE 4 what percentage are we up to?
          >
          > I would direct people to:
          > http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2002/February/browser.php
          > This counts all the visitors to the Internet.com family of
          > sites (about 300 Million hits a month) and this shows
          > IE5.x 62%, IE6.x 25%, IE4.x 4% (that's 91%) and then
          > NS4.x 4% and NSother 1% The rest are all less than 1%.

          i have access to the stats of site which gets 16-18000 hits a day and
          browser usage breaks down along the lines indicated by thecounter.com - all
          versions of netscape account for a measly 5-6% on average, with explorer
          consistently hitting 91-92%.

          i've also seen traffic stats from smaller sites, which back these figures
          up.

          paul
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