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Re: [NH] Digest Number 285

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  • Paul Geiger
    Hi, from PaulG: May I add a note saying how much I like this discussion group--thanks. I might also add that my son, the computer genius, is a senior
    Message 1 of 1 , Sep 22, 2001
      Hi, from PaulG:

      May I add a note saying how much I like this discussion group--thanks. I
      might also add that my son, the computer genius, is a "senior internet
      architect" (nice title, eh?). Their company uses HTML 4 for some internal
      stuff but for anything external 3.2 is recommended.
      Ya know...the more complications, the more chance for Mr. Murphy! 8-)

      Cheers.

      :PG


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
      To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 1:10 AM
      Subject: [NH] Digest Number 285


      >
      > There are 3 messages in this issue.
      >
      > Topics in this digest:
      >
      > 1. RE: Two Tables
      > From: Lotta <loro@...>
      > 2. RE: Two Tables
      > From: Jody <av1611@...>
      > 3. RE: Two Tables
      > From: Jody <av1611@...>
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 1
      > Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:40:52 +0200
      > From: Lotta <loro@...>
      > Subject: RE: Two Tables
      >
      > Hello Greg,
      >
      > >For example, as I read it, there's nothing in the standard that specifies
      > >that a background image
      > >to a table can't restart displaying from the top left hand corner of
      > >each cell in the table
      >
      > In fact, there is nothing in the standard that says you can use background
      > images in tables at all. This must be one of the most hushed up non
      > standard practices around. No one wants to be without their backgrounds in
      > tables so even the ones that are most pro standard keep their mouth shut
      > mostly. But there it is, background isn't an attribute neither to TABLE
      nor
      > to TD but works pretty well anyway I must say.
      > http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/index/elements.html
      > http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/index/attributes.html
      >
      > Lotta
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 2
      > Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:32:34 -0500
      > From: Jody <av1611@...>
      > Subject: RE: Two Tables
      >
      > Hi Lotta and Greg,
      >
      > Thanks to Lotta for getting my two tables working in all the
      > latest browsers, and almost in NS4.7. It was mainly because I
      > was using numbers 1/2) to differentiate between the two tables.
      > As somebody suggested table.aaa and table.bbb earlier, but I just
      > figured that was just one way of doing it and that numbers would
      > make no difference. In NS4.7 border: is not allowed as far as I
      > can tell. I'm wondering if I can use a 1x1 px for the cell
      > background to at least get some of the table working in NS4.7.
      > Furthermore, the two table displays funky - they bother are not
      > set at 640px and the font-size is ignored in the second table.
      > Strange cookie it is. Here is the page which displays correctly
      > now in IE, Opera, Mozilla 9.4 (which I assume will display
      > correctly in NS6. 4.7 is not my only headache. The validators
      > all said everything was OK, when in fact is was not OK. I used
      > about 4 of them. In fact, there was a non-existent "tag" that
      > was not fond bad and another that was missing a semi-colon that
      > was not found bad by them. CSS validators and a standard in all
      > browsers still has a ways to go yet IMO.
      >
      > My only teal concern now is getting the two tables to line up at
      > 640px in NS4.7 and to at least get the cell backgrounds to work.
      > I know that NS4.7 does not recognize "border:" which is mainly
      > the problem in 4.7. Thanks once again Lotta. You the woMan. ;-)
      >
      > http://www.notetab.net/order
      >
      > >> For example, as I read it, there's nothing in the standard that
      > >> specifies that a background image to a table can't restart
      > >> displaying from the top left hand corner of each cell in the
      > >> table
      > >
      > >In fact, there is nothing in the standard that says you can use
      > >background images in tables at all. This must be one of the most
      > >hushed up non standard practices around. No one wants to be
      > >without their backgrounds in tables so even the ones that are
      > >most pro standard keep their mouth shut mostly. But there it is,
      > >background isn't an attribute neither to TABLE nor to TD but
      > >works pretty well anyway I must say.
      >
      ><http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/index/elements.html>http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/
      index/elements.html
      > >http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/index/attributes.html
      >
      >
      > Happy HTML'n!
      > Jody
      >
      > http://www.notetab.net
      >
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      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 3
      > Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 00:04:07 -0500
      > From: Jody <av1611@...>
      > Subject: RE: Two Tables
      >
      > Hi Greg,
      >
      > Just letting you know I read your post in full and don't have
      > much of a comment to speak of other than the so-called latest and
      > greatest 4.0 and CSS is more messed up than the regular old HTML.
      > If history takes it course, just about the time they get it to
      > some working degree, they will come out with something else to
      > mess it all up again. I'm starting to see my earlier objections
      > to all the change as becoming more of a reality and nightmare.
      >
      > They rave about <font>, but yet use font-weight. Hypocrites is
      > all I have to say. ;) and yes, I'm having a bad hair day. ;)
      >
      > >> wc3/css says there are no errors found when I validate the page,
      > >> but yet NS and Opera refuse to display the page as IE the way I
      > >> have it.
      > >
      > >As you rapidly discover when trying to do anything HTML/CSS standards
      > >are not followed by software houses. In part that is the standard's
      > >fault. Often you can interpret them in a variety of ways, or they are
      > >silent on particular points. It means that it may be valid to render
      > >the same code in a number of ways.
      > >
      > >I guess it's inevitable. Standard creating bodies are not driven by
      > >the market, but in the real world software publishers are always
      > >trying to find a way to make their product better than another. One
      > >way to do that is to provide additional non-standard features.
      > >
      > >> I'm starting to wonder if I should even mess
      > >> with CSS anymore except for maybe when I want to do a special
      > >> effect like making boxes.
      > >
      > >IMHO that would be a backward step! The principal of CSS is
      > >definitely the right one, and it does give you far more flexibility
      > >than plain HTML.
      > >
      > >However, I understand your frustration. I have the same one. I am
      > >only a hobbyist too. I once spend a while trying to make one of my
      > >sites render as I wanted in both Navigator and Internet Explorer. In
      > >the end I found it impossible. So I made sure my site look OK in
      > >MSIE, validated the HTML and said to hell with Navigator users. If
      > >they insist in using a browser that can't render frames or tables
      > >according to the standard, let 'em stew!
      > >
      > >It isn't an entirely fair approach. For example, as I read it,
      > >there's nothing in the standard that specifies that a background image
      > >to a table can't restart displaying from the top left hand corner of
      > >each cell in the table. However, to my mind doing it that way, as
      > >Navigator does, is insane. If I put a background image in the table I
      > >expect it to run across the whole table with each cell displaying its
      > >content over a different part of the image. But navigator restarts
      > >the image from the top left in each cell, effectively tiling the same
      > >corner of the full image in each cell. It may not break the standard,
      > >but it's a lousy approach and I don't think any normal person would
      > >expect it to be rendered in that way.
      > >
      > >That's not to say that I don't recognise that MSIE doesn't have it's
      > >own peculiarities in the way it chooses to render things but, for good
      > >or ill, the majority of browsers will see it in a way I feel is
      > >acceptable.
      > >
      > >Greg
      > >
      > >
      > >Yahoo! Groups
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      > >
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      >
      > Happy HTML'n!
      > Jody
      >
      > http://www.notetab.net
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