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Re: [NH] Two Tables

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  • Lotta
    Morning Jody, ... Try something like this. table { width: 100% } .aaa { color: #000000; background: #99CCFF none } .bbb { color: white; background:
    Message 1 of 27 , Sep 17, 2001
      Morning Jody,

      >How do I define two tables in CSS?
      >
      >TABLE
      > {
      > width: 100%;
      > background-color: #99CCFF;
      > }
      >TABLE.2
      > {
      > width: 100%;
      > color: #white;
      > }
      >
      >If the second is correct what, tags do I use for it in <table> line?




      Try something like this.

      table { width: 100% }
      .aaa { color: #000000; background: #99CCFF none }
      .bbb { color: white; background: transparent none }


      <table class="aaa">.....

      <table class="bbb">....

      You can of course skip the first table rule and use "width" in both class
      rules instead. I think it gets more readable if one structures it up a little.

      For different reasons (user CSS, and in some cases NS problems) it's a good
      idea to always specify both color and background color, preferable also
      background image ("none" above). You can use "transparent" for background
      color and the color or image behind will show through.
      Transparent _is_ the default, only this way you make sure of it. The
      shorthand "background" makes for less characters to type. You can group all
      background properties together that way.

      Vampires go to bed now. zzzzzzz
      Lotta
    • Jody
      Hi Greg, Grant, Lotta, and Others, Thanks! ... OK for you Mr. Chapman! :-) If I were to compare my CSS knowledge to Clip n I would know some Toolbar commands
      Message 2 of 27 , Sep 18, 2001
        Hi Greg, Grant, Lotta, and Others,

        Thanks!

        >> How do I define two tables in CSS?
        >
        >Just define two classes. Something like:
        >
        >This is too simple an answer. I must have missed something in
        >the question!

        OK for you Mr. Chapman! :-) If I were to compare my CSS
        knowledge to Clip'n I would know some Toolbar commands and how to
        launch a program. At least I was going in the right direction
        this time. ;)

        Getting closer...

        How do I make "border" like in a regular HTML border= so that the
        border lines are also wrapped around each cell and not just the
        perimeter. Also, the equivalent to cellspacing & cellpadding.

        As you can see below, I have been trying and also exaggerating to
        find an answer. (I have tried searching TopStyle 2.5 also, but I
        am stumped. Also, Greg/Lotta, since the whole page is two tables, why
        would I use a foreground-color except for good practice like one
        would add quotes in Clips?)

        TABLE.1
        {
        width: 640px;
        font-size: 12px;
        border: 2px solid #006699;
        padding: 14px 14 14px 14px;
        margin-bottom: 10px;
        background-color: black;
        foreground-colour: white;
        }
        TABLE.2
        {
        width: 640;
        font-size: 14px;
        border: 2px solid #006699;
        cellspacing: 5;
        cellpadding: 5;
        background-color: white;
        foreground-colour: white;
        }
        TD.1
        {
        text-align: center;
        }
        TD.2
        {
        text-align: left;
        }

        I will be adding another TD at then of the columns to put the
        cost in and align right. Colors will probably changed too, and
        etc. No need to reply on the looks right now in other words.

        Here is the page so far: http://www.notetab.net/order/test-page.htm

        Happy HTML'n!
        Jody

        http://www.notetab.net

        The NoteTab and Html List...
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      • Lloyd
        Hi Jody, Seems like an awful lot of script writing for a blank page to me. Tried it in Netscape 4.7 and IE. Lloyd
        Message 3 of 27 , Sep 18, 2001
          Hi Jody,

          Seems like an awful lot of script writing for a blank page to me. Tried it
          in Netscape 4.7 and IE.

          Lloyd
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          >Here is the page so far: http://www.notetab.net/order/test-page.htm
          >
          >Happy HTML'n!
          >Jody
        • Rick Friedline
          At 12:31 PM 9/18/01, Jody wrote:Here is the page so far: http://www.notetab.net/order/test-page.htmHi Jody,May I suggest that you use percentages for
          Message 4 of 27 , Sep 18, 2001
            At 12:31 PM 9/18/01, Jody wrote:

            >Here is the page so far: http://www.notetab.net/order/test-page.htm

            Hi Jody,

            May I suggest that you use percentages for table width rather than
            pixels? And just remove the font size suggestion altogether? On
            displays larger than 640 the pixel size restricts the size of the
            table; and font suggestions can be defeated by any browser anyway :-)

            If you set table width to 100% the table will contract and expand
            according to the width of the users' browser window.

            Just a suggestion :-)

            Rick Friedline


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          • Lotta
            Hi, ... Apply borders to TD. ... To avoid conflicts with user style sheets. The table has nothing to do with it. It s just a good habit to specify color when
            Message 5 of 27 , Sep 18, 2001
              Hi,

              >How do I make "border" like in a regular HTML border

              Apply borders to TD.


              > Also, Greg/Lotta, since the whole page is two tables, why
              >would I use a foreground-color except for good practice like one
              >would add quotes in Clips?)

              To avoid conflicts with user style sheets. The table has nothing to do with
              it. It's just a good habit to specify color when ever you specify
              background-color and vice versa.


              > padding: 14px 14 14px 14px;
              > width: 640;

              Always use units.

              > foreground-colour: white;

              No such thing. It's 'color' and the spelling should be American. ;)

              > cellspacing: 5;
              > cellpadding: 5;

              Don't exist. cellpadding would be padding and for cellspacing I don't know.
              There's something called border-spacing and margins may do something.
              Haven't tried.

              Lotta
            • Jody
              Hi Lotta and Rick and Lloyd, Rick, I had it at 100% and did not like it. I purposely change it to px to have a tighter table. It looked lousy at 800x600 at
              Message 6 of 27 , Sep 18, 2001
                Hi Lotta and Rick and Lloyd,

                Rick, I had it at 100% and did not like it. I purposely change
                it to px to have a tighter table. It looked lousy at 800x600 at
                100%. I may center the tables though. I think the higher
                resolutions would look ridicules. Perhaps I will add some type
                side border like the NoteTab site does, but want to make sure
                640X480 users still see it without having to scroll horizontally.

                Lloyd, it looks like a lot of code, because I am trying to do as
                the list members suggest so that my pages that I make now are not
                like the mess I made five years ago.

                >>How do I make "border" like in a regular HTML border
                >
                >Apply borders to TD.
                >
                >To avoid conflicts with user style sheets. The table has nothing
                >to do with it. It's just a good habit to specify color when ever
                >you specify background-color and vice versa.
                >
                >> padding: 14px 14 14px 14px;
                >> width: 640;
                >
                >Always use units.

                What's units?

                >> foreground-colour: white;
                >
                >No such thing. It's 'color' and the spelling should be American. ;)

                Hey, I copy/pasted the Brit on the list, but corrected it in my
                style sheet. You know the Brits do not know how to spell. <bg>
                Actually, I use the "ou" in may words at times because that is
                what I am use to reading. Besides, they are accepted in our
                American dictionaries. ;) But, they do not work in browsers to
                well I reckon.

                >> cellspacing: 5;
                >> cellpadding: 5;
                >
                >Don't exist. cellpadding would be padding and for cellspacing I
                >don't know. There's something called border-spacing and margins
                >may do something. Haven't tried.

                I kind of figured "padding" from what I could see in Top Style, but
                cannot get it to work.

                Happy HTML'n!
                Jody

                http://www.notetab.net

                The NoteTab and Html List...
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              • Randy Parrish
                Why not just stick with HTML. Less of a hassle, imo. CSS just trades one set of problems for another. I would rather stay with something I m familiar with,
                Message 7 of 27 , Sep 18, 2001
                  Why not just stick with HTML. Less of a hassle, imo. CSS just trades one set
                  of problems for another. I would rather stay with something I'm familiar
                  with, lol.
                  Just my two cents. (with inflation, 4.)

                  Randy

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Jody" <av1611@...>
                  To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 6:05 PM
                  Subject: RE: [NH] Two Tables


                  > Hi Lotta and Rick and Lloyd,
                  >
                  > Rick, I had it at 100% and did not like it. I purposely change
                  > it to px to have a tighter table. It looked lousy at 800x600 at
                  > 100%. I may center the tables though. I think the higher
                  > resolutions would look ridicules. Perhaps I will add some type
                  > side border like the NoteTab site does, but want to make sure
                  > 640X480 users still see it without having to scroll horizontally.
                  >
                  > Lloyd, it looks like a lot of code, because I am trying to do as
                  > the list members suggest so that my pages that I make now are not
                  > like the mess I made five years ago.
                  >
                  > >>How do I make "border" like in a regular HTML border
                  > >
                  > >Apply borders to TD.
                  > >
                  > >To avoid conflicts with user style sheets. The table has nothing
                  > >to do with it. It's just a good habit to specify color when ever
                  > >you specify background-color and vice versa.
                  > >
                  > >> padding: 14px 14 14px 14px;
                  > >> width: 640;
                  > >
                  > >Always use units.
                  >
                  > What's units?
                  >
                  > >> foreground-colour: white;
                  > >
                  > >No such thing. It's 'color' and the spelling should be American. ;)
                  >
                  > Hey, I copy/pasted the Brit on the list, but corrected it in my
                  > style sheet. You know the Brits do not know how to spell. <bg>
                  > Actually, I use the "ou" in may words at times because that is
                  > what I am use to reading. Besides, they are accepted in our
                  > American dictionaries. ;) But, they do not work in browsers to
                  > well I reckon.
                  >
                  > >> cellspacing: 5;
                  > >> cellpadding: 5;
                  > >
                  > >Don't exist. cellpadding would be padding and for cellspacing I
                  > >don't know. There's something called border-spacing and margins
                  > >may do something. Haven't tried.
                  >
                  > I kind of figured "padding" from what I could see in Top Style, but
                  > cannot get it to work.
                  >
                  > Happy HTML'n!
                  > Jody
                  >
                  > http://www.notetab.net
                  >
                  > The NoteTab and Html List...
                  > mailto:Ntb-html-Subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Lotta
                  Hi Jody, ... In this case I suspect you want px. You missed one. ... Use it with TD and, again, you need a unit. Values must be accompanied with a unit
                  Message 8 of 27 , Sep 18, 2001
                    Hi Jody,

                    > >> padding: 14px 14 14px 14px;
                    > >> width: 640;
                    > >
                    > >Always use units.
                    >
                    >What's units?

                    In this case I suspect you want px. You missed one.

                    >I kind of figured "padding" from what I could see in Top Style, but
                    >cannot get it to work.

                    Use it with TD and, again, you need a unit. Values must be accompanied with
                    a unit (mostly). There's a whole bunch to choose from. It isn't as with
                    HTLM that the browser assumes pixels. You have to write it out. Like so:

                    td { padding: 4px 8px 4px 8px }
                    (in the order top-right-bottom-left)

                    Or if you prefer:
                    td { padding-top: 4px; padding-right: 8px....and so on

                    Or if you want the same padding all around this is enough:
                    td { padding: 5px }


                    Lotta
                  • Lloyd
                    Hi Jody, I was probably just being a smart mouth but what I was trying to say was that all I have is a plain white page. Lloyd
                    Message 9 of 27 , Sep 18, 2001
                      Hi Jody,

                      I was probably just being a smart mouth but what I was trying to say was
                      that all I have is a plain white page.

                      Lloyd
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      >Lloyd, it looks like a lot of code, because I am trying to do as
                      >the list members suggest so that my pages that I make now are not
                      >like the mess I made five years ago.
                    • h.paulissen@facburfdcw.unimaas.nl
                      Hi Jody et al., I like CSS because it allows me to manipulate the look and feel of my files in an easy way. I store them as a separate file. For cellspacing
                      Message 10 of 27 , Sep 18, 2001
                        Hi Jody et al.,

                        I like CSS because it allows me to manipulate the look and feel of my
                        files in an easy way. I store them as a separate file. For
                        cellspacing and cellpadding issues I must confess I still do that in
                        the HTML-code itself.

                        If you copy the following file you may see what nested tables can
                        mean to you, especially when you make a list as on your test-page
                        they can be of help.

                        Goodnight,

                        Hugo (and thanks for thanking me on the other list)



                        <html>

                        <table width="80%" align="center"
                        cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" bgcolor="#000000">
                        <tr>
                        <td>

                        <table width="100%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="4">
                        <tr bgcolor="#8080C0">
                        <td colspan="2" align="right">
                        <b>Nested tables example</b>
                        </td>
                        </tr>
                        <tr>
                        <td bgcolor="#C0C0C0" colspan="2">
                        Designing a nicely formatted table is sometimes easier
                        when you create a table around your table. You can play
                        around with the cellspacing/cellpadding attributes (of
                        both tables, so take care) easily, and see the "borders"
                        change... For best results the nested table itself needs
                        to have a width of "100%". The "master"-table can have any
                        size, obviously.
                        </td>
                        </tr>
                        <tr>
                        <td bgcolor="#8080C0" valign="top">
                        Set the bgcolor in the first table...
                        </td>
                        <td bgcolor="#FF8040" valign="top">
                        ... and the bgcolors of the cells in the tr or td-sections
                        of the nested table.
                        </td>
                        </tr>
                        <tr>
                        <td bgcolor="#FFFFFF" colspan="2">
                        And by the way, you can use px for font-size in css.
                        When you use ..px the text-display settings are overruled
                        by this. The display is not affected by setting another text-
                        size in the user's browser.
                        </td>
                        </tr>
                        </table>

                        </td>
                        </tr>
                        </table>

                        </html>
                      • Jody
                        Hi Lotta, ... I figured it out when I went fiddling with it. duh! OK, one more question, then I will start fine tuning the appearance... someday. border: 1px
                        Message 11 of 27 , Sep 18, 2001
                          Hi Lotta,

                          >>What's units?
                          >
                          >In this case I suspect you want px. You missed one.
                          >
                          >td { padding: 4px 8px 4px 8px }
                          >(in the order top-right-bottom-left)

                          I figured it out when I went fiddling with it. duh! OK, one more
                          question, then I will start fine tuning the appearance...
                          someday.

                          border: 1px in TD sure enough adds the border that I normally did
                          in the <table> tag below. I want to "fill" the area between the
                          cells with a solid color, blue in this case. How would I do
                          that? I wore out my welcome in Top Style's Help. <g>

                          Thanks Floyd. It does not look anything like I want in NS 4.7.
                          Take a peek in IE. That is what I want. Opera looks like NS.
                          http://www.notetab.net/order/test-page.htm

                          Randy,
                          > Why not just stick with HTML. Less of a hassle, imo. CSS just
                          > trades one set of problems for another.

                          Because I am trying to learn CSS to some degree. It is much more
                          flexible (but much harder to learn IMO than regular HTML though
                          and seems to have its problems just as well).

                          Top Style 2.5 has been released. It is a free upgrade for 2.x
                          users. Nick Bradbury was the writer of HomePage and its main
                          author up to 4.xx somewhere.

                          http://www.bradsoft.com/topstyle/index.asp

                          PSP7 has also released a tenth year anniversary 7.4 special for
                          $30.00 (with a lot of extra software on it an updated manual. It
                          is $10.00 if you only want the CD or download link (for
                          registered users). Details:

                          http://list.jasc.com/UM/T.asp?A1.23.27.1.251908

                          >Or if you want the same padding all around this is enough:
                          >td { padding: 5px }

                          I found that out as well. ;) Thanks!

                          Happy HTML'n!
                          Jody

                          http://www.notetab.net

                          The NoteTab and Html List...
                          mailto:Ntb-html-Subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                        • Lotta
                          Jody, ... I haven t really tried this but it s a fair guess that you can do as usual . I.E. use one background color for TABLE and another for TD and add
                          Message 12 of 27 , Sep 18, 2001
                            Jody,

                            > I want to "fill" the area between the
                            >cells with a solid color, blue in this case. How would I do
                            >that? I wore out my welcome in Top Style's Help. <g>

                            I haven't really tried this but it's a fair guess that you can do "as
                            usual". I.E. use one background color for TABLE and another for TD and add
                            spacing to make the first color show between the cells. Looks like
                            border-spacing is the way to go.
                            http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/tables.html#propdef-border-spacing

                            You have a whole, nice chapter on tables there! <G>

                            Lotta
                          • Greg Chapman
                            Hi Jody, Prepare to kick yourself! ... Add the selectors to your TD definitions! It s the cells to which you are trying to add borders, space or pad, not the
                            Message 13 of 27 , Sep 19, 2001
                              Hi Jody,

                              Prepare to kick yourself!

                              > How do I make "border" like in a regular HTML border= so that the
                              > border lines are also wrapped around each cell and not just the
                              > perimeter. Also, the equivalent to cellspacing & cellpadding.

                              Add the selectors to your TD definitions! It's the cells to which you
                              are trying to add borders, space or pad, not the table!

                              Use the Style Inspector in TopStyle and you'll avoid getting invalid
                              "cellpadding/spacing" (HTML only) selectors in your style sheet!

                              Greg
                            • PJ
                              ... How do you manage this problem? PJ
                              Message 14 of 27 , Sep 19, 2001
                                At 06:47 20/09/01, you wrote:

                                >I have found that relative URLs do not work for Netscape 4, (from an external
                                >style sheet) and absolute ones do not work for any style sheet in Opera
                                >(otherwise an almost perfect model of CSS interpretation.)

                                How do you manage this problem?

                                PJ
                              • Lloyd
                                Hi Jody, Ok, now I get something on either browser. IE looks nice and NS is the same except no borders and the titles do not line up with the table. I sure
                                Message 15 of 27 , Sep 19, 2001
                                  Hi Jody,

                                  Ok, now I get something on either browser. IE looks nice and NS is the same
                                  except no borders and the titles do not line up with the table. I sure hope
                                  we are not going to have to go to IE to live in the future.

                                  Lloyd
                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                  >Thanks Floyd. It does not look anything like I want in NS 4.7.
                                  >Take a peek in IE. That is what I want. Opera looks like NS.
                                  >http://www.notetab.net/order/test-page.htm
                                • Scott Fordin
                                  ... Please, please avoid using browser- specific extensions! Keep your code pure! Regards, Scott
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Sep 19, 2001
                                    At 07:15 9/19/2001 -0500, Lloyd wrote:
                                    >Ok, now I get something on either browser. IE looks nice and NS is the same
                                    >except no borders and the titles do not line up with the table. I sure hope
                                    >we are not going to have to go to IE to live in the future.

                                    <clasped_hands_and_bent_knees>Please, please avoid using browser-
                                    specific extensions! Keep your code pure!</clasped_hands_and_bent_knees>

                                    Regards,

                                    Scott
                                  • Jody
                                    Hi Greg, ... I suppose that is true when you know what to look under. ... Same thing, once one finds the right place to look, then he sees what is aloud.
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Sep 19, 2001
                                      Hi Greg,

                                      >> How do I make "border" like in a regular HTML border= so that
                                      >> the border lines are also wrapped around each cell and not just
                                      >> the perimeter. Also, the equivalent to cellspacing & cellpadding.
                                      >
                                      >Add the selectors to your TD definitions! It's the cells to
                                      >which you are trying to add borders, space or pad, not the table!

                                      I suppose that is true when you know what to look under. <g>

                                      >Use the Style Inspector in TopStyle and you'll avoid getting
                                      >invalid "cellpadding/spacing" (HTML only) selectors in your style
                                      >sheet!

                                      Same thing, once one finds the right place to look, then he sees
                                      what is aloud. I do notice the illegal code is in red.

                                      wc3/css says there are no errors found when I validate the page,
                                      but yet NS and Opera refuse to display the page as IE the way I
                                      have it.

                                      It there a cheat sheet for CSS like HTMLib by Steve Hunt that
                                      shows what code is acceptable by each browser? I know TS has the
                                      style inspector for the different browsers, so I will try to see
                                      if that helps me - but would rather have a cheat sheet. I did
                                      see Tips and Tricks when I looked up TD and also Tips for
                                      Netscape. I have found out that the old HTML seems much more
                                      compatible than CSS in the main browsers, at least that is what I
                                      am finding out. I'm starting to wonder if I should even mess
                                      with CSS anymore except for maybe when I want to do a special
                                      effect like making boxes. I understand where professionals
                                      making a living off it need to definitely use it, but for a
                                      weekend hobbyist I'm not quite to sure about it.

                                      Happy HTML'n!
                                      Jody

                                      http://www.notetab.net

                                      The NoteTab and Html List...
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                                    • Stephen Riddle
                                      ... Exactly what I used to think. What I ve discovered though, is that if I just get the syntax properly, each browser takes what it can use and does not
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Sep 19, 2001
                                        Randy Parrish wrote:

                                        > Why not just stick with HTML. Less of a hassle, imo. CSS just trades one set
                                        > of problems for another.

                                        Exactly what I used to think. What I've discovered though, is that if I just
                                        get the syntax properly, each browser takes what it can use and does not break
                                        down and crash. I hardly write a web page now that does not use some CSS.
                                        However, I found that I like to do some of my formatting with HTML attributes,
                                        so I may never get past the XHTML/Transitional period.

                                        I tend to use external style sheets for several pages. Then when I want a new
                                        look, or find a formatting error, I just go to the style sheet and edit that.
                                        I have found that relative URLs do not work for Netscape 4, (from an external
                                        style sheet) and absolute ones do not work for any style sheet in Opera
                                        (otherwise an almost perfect model of CSS interpretation.)


                                        > I would rather stay with something I'm familiar
                                        > with, lol.

                                        Would not we all? However it is only the unfamiliarity which makes them scary.

                                        > Just my two cents. (with inflation, 4.)
                                        >
                                        > Randy
                                        >
                                        > -
                                      • Lotta
                                        Hi Stephen and others, ... Long time, Stephen. :) I m curious, do you have the style sheet in a different directory than the html? There s a bug (well - there
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Sep 19, 2001
                                          Hi Stephen and others,

                                          Stephen wrote:
                                          >I have found that relative URLs do not work for Netscape 4, (from an external
                                          >style sheet)

                                          Long time, Stephen. :) I'm curious, do you have the style sheet in a
                                          different directory than the html? There's a bug (well - there are a lot!)
                                          in NS4x that makes relative URLs interpreted relative to the HTML file
                                          instead of relative to the CSS file. If you put them in the same directory
                                          it should work. Hope I eased your workload!

                                          Lotta
                                        • Stephen Riddle
                                          ... Hi PJ, I gave it a lot of thought with my church s site and did not come up with anything elegant, but think I have something that works. What we want to
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Sep 20, 2001
                                            PJ wrote:

                                            > At 06:47 20/09/01, you wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >I have found that relative URLs do not work for Netscape 4, (from an external
                                            > >style sheet) and absolute ones do not work for any style sheet in Opera
                                            > >(otherwise an almost perfect model of CSS interpretation.)
                                            >
                                            > How do you manage this problem?
                                            >
                                            > PJ

                                            Hi PJ,

                                            I gave it a lot of thought with my church's site and did not come up with anything
                                            elegant, but think I have something that works. What we want to do is change the
                                            look of the site every eclesiastical (is that the right word, things like
                                            pentecost, advent, etc.) season. This is pretty easy with one style sheet which
                                            can change all the colors, font-sizes and that kind of thang.
                                            However for background images (and I suppose anything else which requires a URL),
                                            to make it work in all the browsers I tested, I had to call the file from inside
                                            the page, either as an html element's attribute, or from an internal style sheet.
                                            I was really dreading going through each page. We add between three to nine pages
                                            a month and just the ftp process was beginning to sound like a lot of work. What
                                            I did was go ahead and write the URL references wherever was appropriate inside
                                            the individual pages as in
                                            <body background="utilityicons/normalbackground.gif">.
                                            Whenever I need another background image, I just plan on renaming the old
                                            background image to something else, and calling the new one
                                            "normalbackground.gif". It will only be laborious if I need to change from gifs
                                            to jpgs or tiffs or something like that.

                                            Of course those who are not as tolerant of Netscape 4 as I am would just do
                                            whatever they do for non-supported browsers.
                                            (Using a background color which will still make the content understandable, for
                                            instance.)

                                            Take care.

                                            Stephen
                                          • Greg Chapman
                                            Hi Jody, ... As you rapidly discover when trying to do anything HTML/CSS standards are not followed by software houses. In part that is the standard s fault.
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Sep 21, 2001
                                              Hi Jody,

                                              > wc3/css says there are no errors found when I validate the page,
                                              > but yet NS and Opera refuse to display the page as IE the way I
                                              > have it.

                                              As you rapidly discover when trying to do anything HTML/CSS standards
                                              are not followed by software houses. In part that is the standard's
                                              fault. Often you can interpret them in a variety of ways, or they are
                                              silent on particular points. It means that it may be valid to render
                                              the same code in a number of ways.

                                              I guess it's inevitable. Standard creating bodies are not driven by
                                              the market, but in the real world software publishers are always
                                              trying to find a way to make their product better than another. One
                                              way to do that is to provide additional non-standard features.

                                              > I'm starting to wonder if I should even mess
                                              > with CSS anymore except for maybe when I want to do a special
                                              > effect like making boxes.

                                              IMHO that would be a backward step! The principal of CSS is
                                              definitely the right one, and it does give you far more flexibility
                                              than plain HTML.

                                              However, I understand your frustration. I have the same one. I am
                                              only a hobbyist too. I once spend a while trying to make one of my
                                              sites render as I wanted in both Navigator and Internet Explorer. In
                                              the end I found it impossible. So I made sure my site look OK in
                                              MSIE, validated the HTML and said to hell with Navigator users. If
                                              they insist in using a browser that can't render frames or tables
                                              according to the standard, let 'em stew!

                                              It isn't an entirely fair approach. For example, as I read it,
                                              there's nothing in the standard that specifies that a background image
                                              to a table can't restart displaying from the top left hand corner of
                                              each cell in the table. However, to my mind doing it that way, as
                                              Navigator does, is insane. If I put a background image in the table I
                                              expect it to run across the whole table with each cell displaying its
                                              content over a different part of the image. But navigator restarts
                                              the image from the top left in each cell, effectively tiling the same
                                              corner of the full image in each cell. It may not break the standard,
                                              but it's a lousy approach and I don't think any normal person would
                                              expect it to be rendered in that way.

                                              That's not to say that I don't recognise that MSIE doesn't have it's
                                              own peculiarities in the way it chooses to render things but, for good
                                              or ill, the majority of browsers will see it in a way I feel is
                                              acceptable.

                                              Greg
                                            • Lotta
                                              Hello Greg, ... In fact, there is nothing in the standard that says you can use background images in tables at all. This must be one of the most hushed up non
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Sep 21, 2001
                                                Hello Greg,

                                                >For example, as I read it, there's nothing in the standard that specifies
                                                >that a background image
                                                >to a table can't restart displaying from the top left hand corner of
                                                >each cell in the table

                                                In fact, there is nothing in the standard that says you can use background
                                                images in tables at all. This must be one of the most hushed up non
                                                standard practices around. No one wants to be without their backgrounds in
                                                tables so even the ones that are most pro standard keep their mouth shut
                                                mostly. But there it is, background isn't an attribute neither to TABLE nor
                                                to TD but works pretty well anyway I must say.
                                                http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/index/elements.html
                                                http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/index/attributes.html

                                                Lotta
                                              • Jody
                                                Hi Lotta and Greg, Thanks to Lotta for getting my two tables working in all the latest browsers, and almost in NS4.7. It was mainly because I was using
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Sep 21, 2001
                                                  Hi Lotta and Greg,

                                                  Thanks to Lotta for getting my two tables working in all the
                                                  latest browsers, and almost in NS4.7. It was mainly because I
                                                  was using numbers 1/2) to differentiate between the two tables.
                                                  As somebody suggested table.aaa and table.bbb earlier, but I just
                                                  figured that was just one way of doing it and that numbers would
                                                  make no difference. In NS4.7 border: is not allowed as far as I
                                                  can tell. I'm wondering if I can use a 1x1 px for the cell
                                                  background to at least get some of the table working in NS4.7.
                                                  Furthermore, the two table displays funky - they bother are not
                                                  set at 640px and the font-size is ignored in the second table.
                                                  Strange cookie it is. Here is the page which displays correctly
                                                  now in IE, Opera, Mozilla 9.4 (which I assume will display
                                                  correctly in NS6. 4.7 is not my only headache. The validators
                                                  all said everything was OK, when in fact is was not OK. I used
                                                  about 4 of them. In fact, there was a non-existent "tag" that
                                                  was not fond bad and another that was missing a semi-colon that
                                                  was not found bad by them. CSS validators and a standard in all
                                                  browsers still has a ways to go yet IMO.

                                                  My only teal concern now is getting the two tables to line up at
                                                  640px in NS4.7 and to at least get the cell backgrounds to work.
                                                  I know that NS4.7 does not recognize "border:" which is mainly
                                                  the problem in 4.7. Thanks once again Lotta. You the woMan. ;-)

                                                  http://www.notetab.net/order

                                                  >> For example, as I read it, there's nothing in the standard that
                                                  >> specifies that a background image to a table can't restart
                                                  >> displaying from the top left hand corner of each cell in the
                                                  >> table
                                                  >
                                                  >In fact, there is nothing in the standard that says you can use
                                                  >background images in tables at all. This must be one of the most
                                                  >hushed up non standard practices around. No one wants to be
                                                  >without their backgrounds in tables so even the ones that are
                                                  >most pro standard keep their mouth shut mostly. But there it is,
                                                  >background isn't an attribute neither to TABLE nor to TD but
                                                  >works pretty well anyway I must say.
                                                  ><http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/index/elements.html>http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/index/elements.html
                                                  >http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/index/attributes.html


                                                  Happy HTML'n!
                                                  Jody

                                                  http://www.notetab.net

                                                  The NoteTab and Html List...
                                                  mailto:Ntb-html-Subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                                • Stephen Riddle
                                                  Hi Lotta, Been occupied, Lotta |-{ Yes that s it exactly. If the style sheet is in the same directory though, URLs are relative to the style sheet as the html
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Sep 21, 2001
                                                    Hi Lotta,
                                                    Been occupied, Lotta |-{
                                                    Yes that's it exactly. If the style sheet is in the same directory though, URLs are relative to the style sheet as the html document.

                                                    Lotta wrote:

                                                    > Hi Stephen and others,
                                                    >
                                                    > Stephen wrote:
                                                    > >I have found that relative URLs do not work for Netscape 4, (from an external
                                                    > >style sheet)
                                                    >
                                                    > Long time, Stephen. :) I'm curious, do you have the style sheet in a
                                                    > different directory than the html? There's a bug (well - there are a lot!)
                                                    > in NS4x that makes relative URLs interpreted relative to the HTML file
                                                    > instead of relative to the CSS file. If you put them in the same directory
                                                    > it should work. Hope I eased your workload!
                                                    >
                                                    > Lotta
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                  • Jody
                                                    Hi Greg, Just letting you know I read your post in full and don t have much of a comment to speak of other than the so-called latest and greatest 4.0 and CSS
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Sep 21, 2001
                                                      Hi Greg,

                                                      Just letting you know I read your post in full and don't have
                                                      much of a comment to speak of other than the so-called latest and
                                                      greatest 4.0 and CSS is more messed up than the regular old HTML.
                                                      If history takes it course, just about the time they get it to
                                                      some working degree, they will come out with something else to
                                                      mess it all up again. I'm starting to see my earlier objections
                                                      to all the change as becoming more of a reality and nightmare.

                                                      They rave about <font>, but yet use font-weight. Hypocrites is
                                                      all I have to say. ;) and yes, I'm having a bad hair day. ;)

                                                      >> wc3/css says there are no errors found when I validate the page,
                                                      >> but yet NS and Opera refuse to display the page as IE the way I
                                                      >> have it.
                                                      >
                                                      >As you rapidly discover when trying to do anything HTML/CSS standards
                                                      >are not followed by software houses. In part that is the standard's
                                                      >fault. Often you can interpret them in a variety of ways, or they are
                                                      >silent on particular points. It means that it may be valid to render
                                                      >the same code in a number of ways.
                                                      >
                                                      >I guess it's inevitable. Standard creating bodies are not driven by
                                                      >the market, but in the real world software publishers are always
                                                      >trying to find a way to make their product better than another. One
                                                      >way to do that is to provide additional non-standard features.
                                                      >
                                                      >> I'm starting to wonder if I should even mess
                                                      >> with CSS anymore except for maybe when I want to do a special
                                                      >> effect like making boxes.
                                                      >
                                                      >IMHO that would be a backward step! The principal of CSS is
                                                      >definitely the right one, and it does give you far more flexibility
                                                      >than plain HTML.
                                                      >
                                                      >However, I understand your frustration. I have the same one. I am
                                                      >only a hobbyist too. I once spend a while trying to make one of my
                                                      >sites render as I wanted in both Navigator and Internet Explorer. In
                                                      >the end I found it impossible. So I made sure my site look OK in
                                                      >MSIE, validated the HTML and said to hell with Navigator users. If
                                                      >they insist in using a browser that can't render frames or tables
                                                      >according to the standard, let 'em stew!
                                                      >
                                                      >It isn't an entirely fair approach. For example, as I read it,
                                                      >there's nothing in the standard that specifies that a background image
                                                      >to a table can't restart displaying from the top left hand corner of
                                                      >each cell in the table. However, to my mind doing it that way, as
                                                      >Navigator does, is insane. If I put a background image in the table I
                                                      >expect it to run across the whole table with each cell displaying its
                                                      >content over a different part of the image. But navigator restarts
                                                      >the image from the top left in each cell, effectively tiling the same
                                                      >corner of the full image in each cell. It may not break the standard,
                                                      >but it's a lousy approach and I don't think any normal person would
                                                      >expect it to be rendered in that way.
                                                      >
                                                      >That's not to say that I don't recognise that MSIE doesn't have it's
                                                      >own peculiarities in the way it chooses to render things but, for good
                                                      >or ill, the majority of browsers will see it in a way I feel is
                                                      >acceptable.
                                                      >
                                                      >Greg
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=207641.1594108.3142424.1269402/D=egroupweb/S=1705375618:HM/A=765263/R=0/*http://www.verisign.com/cgi-bin/go.cgi?a=b153340270003000>
                                                      >
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                                                      Happy HTML'n!
                                                      Jody

                                                      http://www.notetab.net

                                                      The NoteTab and Html List...
                                                      mailto:Ntb-html-Subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                                    • Greg Chapman
                                                      ... And just to keep you dragging it out by the roots, all I can say is, Yes and don t forget HTML4 is already in the trashcan! Now it s XHTML! :-) Greg
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Sep 24, 2001
                                                        > Hi Greg,
                                                        >
                                                        > Just letting you know I read your post in full and don't have
                                                        > much of a comment to speak of other than the so-called latest and
                                                        > greatest 4.0 and CSS is more messed up than the regular old HTML.
                                                        ...
                                                        > They rave about <font>, but yet use font-weight. Hypocrites is
                                                        > all I have to say. ;) and yes, I'm having a bad hair day. ;)

                                                        And just to keep you dragging it out by the roots, all I can say is,
                                                        "Yes and don't forget HTML4 is already in the trashcan! Now it's
                                                        XHTML!" :-)

                                                        Greg
                                                      • stephen
                                                        Hey, I really like XHTML! (because it kind of looks like what I already did, no capitals anywhere between the . But I would like to be able to stop
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Sep 24, 2001
                                                          Hey, I really like XHTML!
                                                          (because it kind of looks like what I already did, no capitals anywhere between the < and the >.
                                                          But I would like to be able to stop learning NEW wierd things for about five minutes.
                                                          Stheph

                                                          >
                                                          > And just to keep you dragging it out by the roots, all I can say is,
                                                          > "Yes and don't forget HTML4 is already in the trashcan! Now it's
                                                          > XHTML!" :-)
                                                          >
                                                          > Greg
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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