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Re: [NH] Dot Fill

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  • Lotta
    Ray, ... Oh yes, I m afraid it absolutely would. Is the purpose that it should be easier for the eye to follow the line? In that case I think it looks
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 16 9:17 PM
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      Ray,

      >Also, I worry that various browsers or various local font settings will
      >mangle the appearance I'm working so hard to improve.

      Oh yes, I'm afraid it absolutely would.

      Is the purpose that it should be easier for the eye to follow the line? In
      that case I think it looks perfectly OK as it is. Or you could consider
      using two different, light background colors, alternating them each TR. Or
      simply keep the borders on.

      The "filling" could probably be done with some kind of script, but with
      plain HTML I fear it would be messy. But then I'm not sure that I
      understand what you want to do - but I think I do. :)

      Lotta
    • Greg Chapman
      Hi Ray, ... I wasn t too positive in my last post, but Lotta s idea of alternating background colours to your TR tags is a good one. Take care, how you do it
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 17 3:20 AM
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        Hi Ray,

        > Here's a sample from the table in which I'd like to use dot fill

        I wasn't too positive in my last post, but Lotta's idea of alternating
        background colours to your TR tags is a good one. Take care, how you do it
        though. Netscape Navigator is pretty appalling at handling tables!

        This post isn't really going to address the issue you raise, but it may
        provide food for thought for those are starting out with HTML and I'm sure
        I'll learn from any feedback too....

        It's always risky taking a portion of someone else's code but I was curious
        about yours. I pasted it into the middle of this code...

        ===============
        <HTML>
        <HEAD>
        <TITLE>Dummy</TITLE>
        </HEAD>

        <BODY>
        Your stuff pasted here
        </BODY>
        </HTML>
        ===============

        and ran it through HTML TIDY. It produced these warnings...

        ===============
        line 13 column 33 - Warning: replacing unexpected </font> by </b>
        line 13 column 40 - Warning: replacing unexpected </b> by </font>
        line 19 column 40 - Warning: missing </table> before </center>
        line 19 column 49 - Warning: </td> isn't allowed in <body> elements
        line 19 column 49 - Warning: inserting implicit <table>
        line 19 column 49 - Warning: discarding unexpected </td>
        line 20 column 1 - Warning: missing <tr>
        line 25 column 37 - Warning: discarding unexpected </center>
        line 31 column 40 - Warning: discarding unexpected </center>
        line 37 column 43 - Warning: discarding unexpected </center>
        line 43 column 42 - Warning: discarding unexpected </center>
        line 49 column 38 - Warning: discarding unexpected </center>
        You are recommended to use CSS to specify the font and
        properties such as its size and color. This will reduce
        the size of HTML files and make them easier maintain
        compared with using <FONT> elements.
        ===============

        Certainly those were some of the things I was concerned about, but it didn't
        answer the question about why you both set the TABLE WIDTH to 460 and each
        and every cell to 230. Much of this is redundant. You need only set the
        cell widths in one row and all the others will be forced to follow the same
        width. Indeed it is the very fact that you force the table to the width you
        do that you introduce the need for the "dot fill". Remove all the WIDTH
        attributes and let the table find its own width and your problem disappears.
        If you insist on seeing some dots, I suppose you could introduce a third,
        central, column and fill them all with the same number of dots?

        I realise that many of the   entities are probably there while you
        experiment with your "dot fill" methods, but they all appear redundant as
        well, as the code stands.

        Centering the whole table would be better done with an ALIGN attribute to
        the TABLE tag. It removes the need for a closing tag, too!

        Given the fact that you've forced the width relatively wide for the text
        each cell contains, and then left aligned all contents, the overall visual
        effect is that the text is set slightly to the left on the page. This
        effect could be minimised by using borders on the table. You also could
        have considered right aligning the contents of the first column, removing
        the need for the "dot fill", though I appreciate the format so loved by
        movie credit designers is not always so easy to browse through for specific
        information.

        > After you post your responses in public, I'd be glad to take any follow up
        > to private mail.

        Feel free to go private! :-)

        Greg
      • Lotta
        Hi guys, ... Actually no. Partly because align in TABLE works like align in IMAGE. That is, aligning the element relative other content, not absolutely on the
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 17 3:35 AM
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          Hi guys,

          >Centering the whole table would be better done with an ALIGN attribute to
          >the TABLE tag. It removes the need for a closing tag, too!

          Actually no. Partly because align in TABLE works like align in IMAGE. That
          is, aligning the element relative other content, not absolutely on the
          page. align="center" should work this way though, but is known not to
          always do so. Quoting Liam Quinn (his English is so much better than mine :) )
          Since many browsers do not support ALIGN=center with TABLE,
          authors may wish to place the TABLE within a CENTER element.

          But I think this all is quite far from Ray's problem and I'm dead. Zzzzzzzz
          Lotta
        • Scott Fordin
          Instead of using a dot fill, why not just use alternating row colors in your table? True, some very old browsers can t handle table cell background colors, but
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 17 9:33 AM
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            Instead of using a dot fill, why not just use alternating row colors in
            your table? True, some very old browsers can't handle table cell
            background colors, but really, 90-95% of the browsers out there can handle
            them just fine.

            Scott

            On Tue, 17 Jul 2001, Lotta wrote:

            > From: Lotta <loro@...>
            > To: ntb-html@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 06:17:24 +0200
            > Subject: Re: [NH] Dot Fill
            >
            > Ray,
            >
            > >Also, I worry that various browsers or various local font settings will
            > >mangle the appearance I'm working so hard to improve.
            >
            > Oh yes, I'm afraid it absolutely would.
            >
            > Is the purpose that it should be easier for the eye to follow the line? In
            > that case I think it looks perfectly OK as it is. Or you could consider
            > using two different, light background colors, alternating them each TR. Or
            > simply keep the borders on.
            >
            > The "filling" could probably be done with some kind of script, but with
            > plain HTML I fear it would be messy. But then I'm not sure that I
            > understand what you want to do - but I think I do. :)
            >
            > Lotta
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • Ray Shapp
            Hi Lotta and Greg I intend to drop the idea of dot fill as being impractical. I like the idea of alternate background colors for successive rows except that I
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 17 9:47 AM
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              Hi Lotta and Greg

              I intend to drop the idea of dot fill as being impractical. I like the idea
              of alternate background colors for successive rows except that I often add
              or subtract a name in the table. I'd have to develop a way to re-color the
              table after each change. Can this sort of thing be done with a style sheet?

              I have never had any success in getting Tidy to work.

              Ray Shapp
              Watchung, NJ
            • Lotta
              Ray, ... If you mean can the background colors be done with CSS - Yes. If you are saying that you want to delete a row and CSS would automatically change all
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 17 10:07 AM
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                Ray,

                >I like the idea of alternate background colors for successive rows except
                >that I often add
                >or subtract a name in the table. I'd have to develop a way to re-color the
                >table after each change. Can this sort of thing be done with a style sheet?

                If you mean can the background colors be done with CSS - Yes.
                If you are saying that you want to delete a row and CSS would automatically
                change all the colors - no.
                Again, some kind of script could probably do it but it can't be done
                without that.

                Either you use only HTML or HTML + CSS you need to in some way denote which
                rows that should have which color. If you yank one row out you have to
                rewrite the color attributes for the whole table. I guess this could be a
                job for NTB . Give a certain attribute to every other TR and another one to
                the rest. Get Jody on it! :)

                Lotta
              • Lotta
                Ray, ... Come to think of it, that could just as easily be done with Find and Replace even for a large document. It s after all only a matter of (after the
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 17 10:23 AM
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                  Ray,

                  >If you yank one row out you have to
                  >rewrite the color attributes for the whole table.

                  Come to think of it, that could just as easily be done with Find and
                  Replace even for a large document. It's after all only a matter of (after
                  the deleted or added row) changing all attribute A to attribute B and vice
                  versa, isn't it?

                  Lotta



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ray Shapp
                  Lotta, You said Come to think of it, that could just as easily be done with Find and Replace even for a large document. It s after all only a matter of
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 17 3:59 PM
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                    Lotta,

                    You said>>>>
                    Come to think of it, that could just as easily be done with Find and
                    Replace even for a large document. It's after all only a matter of (after
                    the deleted or added row) changing all attribute A to attribute B and vice
                    versa, isn't it?<<<<<<

                    I don't think so. Let's say I use a white background for all odd numbered
                    rows and a gray background for all even numbered rows. Now I remove row two
                    and add a row between the old row 50 and 51. Color reversals will be
                    necessary for new row two through 51 but all others should retain their
                    original color. If more than a few additions and deletions are done in a
                    session, it could become quite tedious.

                    Find and replace, however may do the trick as follows. I could change all
                    background attributes to white ("ffffff"). Then use a Regex to find and
                    replace both instances of bgcolor="ffffff" to bgcolor="D3D3D3" in every even
                    numbered row.

                    The sample below my signature shows my desired end point. Will anyone help
                    me write the Regex that will ignore without change everything between the
                    first instance of <TR> (anything) </TR> and in the second instance of <TR>
                    (anything) </TR>, replace both copies of "ffffff" with "D3D3D3" then repeat
                    the pattern?

                    Ray Shapp
                    Watchung, NJ

                    <CENTER>
                    <TABLE BORDER=0 cellspacing=0 WIDTH=460>

                    <TR>
                    <TD ALIGN="left" width="230" bgcolor="ffffff"><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"
                    SIZE=3>
                    <B>Adams, Joe   </font></B></TD>
                    <TD ALIGN="LEFT" width="230" bgcolor="ffffff"><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"
                    SIZE=3>
                    <A HREF="mailto:ccdhanks@...">ccdhanks@...
                    </A></font></TD></TR>
                    <TR>
                    <TD ALIGN="left" bgcolor="D3D3D3">
                    <B>Anderson, Frank   </B></CENTER></TD>
                    <TD ALIGN="LEFT" bgcolor="D3D3D3">
                    <A HREF="mailto:uses@...">uses@...
                    </A></TD></TR>
                    <TR>
                    <TD ALIGN="left" bgcolor="ffffff">
                    <B>Arcaro, Bill   </B></CENTER></TD>
                    <TD ALIGN="LEFT" bgcolor="ffffff">
                    <A HREF="mailto:jbar@...">jbar@...
                    </A></TD></TR>
                    <TR>
                    <TD ALIGN="left" bgcolor="D3D3D3">
                    <B>Ashcraft, Anaconda George   </B></CENTER></TD>
                    <TD ALIGN="LEFT" bgcolor="D3D3D3">
                    <A HREF="mailto:links3@...">links3@...
                    </A></TD></TR>

                    </TABLE>
                  • Lotta
                    Good morning Ray, ... Ah, I though that you were going to change only one or two names at the time. Just a tip for you. Either you do the colors in HTML or
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 18 12:04 AM
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                      Good morning Ray,

                      >>Come to think of it, that could just as easily be done with Find and
                      >>Replace
                      >
                      >I don't think so. Let's say I use a white background for all odd numbered
                      >rows and a gray background for all even numbered rows. Now I remove row two
                      >and add a row between the old row 50 and 51. Color reversals will be
                      >necessary for new row two through 51 but all others should retain their
                      >original color. If more than a few additions and deletions are done in a
                      >session, it could become quite tedious.
                      >
                      >Find and replace, however may do the trick as follows. I could change all
                      >background attributes to white ("ffffff"). Then use a Regex to find and
                      >replace both instances of bgcolor="ffffff" to bgcolor="D3D3D3" in every even
                      >numbered row.


                      Ah, I though that you were going to change only one or two names at the time.

                      Just a tip for you. Either you do the colors in HTML or CSS you don't need
                      to specify them for each cell. Works with rows as well. You get less code
                      and the switching becomes easier whatever method you choose.

                      I would consider using CSS for both colors and fonts. Not even NS4x
                      browsers have problems with this and the code becomes so much cleaner and
                      easier to handle. But then I don't know if you want to use CSS.

                      Lotta
                    • Yehuda Katz
                      Just a practical thought... When I see all the time, brain attributes, bandwidth etc. devoted for this dots issue, I wonder if it would not be MUCH simpler to
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 18 1:08 AM
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                        Just a practical thought...
                        When I see all the time, brain attributes, bandwidth etc. devoted for this
                        dots issue, I wonder if it would not be MUCH simpler to add the dots
                        manually. You do it for the whole list only once (maybe 1 hour work for 200
                        items), then you can remove any item without hard feelings. Of course, when
                        you add a new entry, you will have to add to it those 3-or-so dots.

                        Yehuda
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