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RE: [Clip] Code page/character issues

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  • John Shotsky
    Well, if it was mainstream, I wouldn t have brought it up here. At first, I thought maybe FireFox wasn t properly closing the file, which is why I rebooted
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 12, 2013
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      Well, if it was mainstream, I wouldn't have brought it up here. At first, I thought maybe FireFox wasn't properly
      closing the file, which is why I rebooted between, but that didn't help. I've inspected properties, but that didn't show
      anything different between the before and after. The byte count doesn't change. But somehow, NoteTab is seeing
      'something' that I can't find, which is why I asked here. I'll see if I can find a more robust file metadata analyzer.
      FYI � EditPad Pro opens it fine, but it is also a Unicode editor, and I often use it to see what is 'really' in a text
      file.

      Now for the even weirder part: EditPad Pro DOES display it correctly in text view, but in hex/Ascii view, it shows the
      same thing as NoteTab!
      Text View: Speka Piragi
      Hex/Ascii View: Spe��a P��r��gi

      NoteTab correctly detects it as utf-8. But when I force it to Windows 1252, it displays as in NoteTab � incorrectly.
      That means that NoteTab is detecting it as Win1252 before it is renamed, and as UTF8 afterwards. Further, that means
      that either Windows or NoteTab is incorrectly detecting the code page. But, since EditPad Pro detects it correctly, I
      don't think it's Windows. This reminds me that, over time, I have often had problems with characters in NoteTab, and
      have done everything I could think of to resolve those issues. But this one seems unresolvable. (except for moving the
      file)

      Recipes, it turns out, can be very difficult, since they come from every country, and even when Anglicized, they often
      retain oddball characters. Web pages can display these characters fine, but text editors may have problems. I can't even
      guess why NoteTab detects the code page differently, but I am pretty certain that it is a NoteTab problem alone. I do
      not know what mechanism editors use to detect code pages.

      Regards,
      John
      RecipeTools Web Site: <http://recipetools.gotdns.com/> http://recipetools.gotdns.com/

      From: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Axel Berger
      Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 00:39
      To: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Clip] Code page/character issues


      John Shotsky wrote:
      > If I export from FireFox, then copy the file to another folder,
      > and then open the copy in NoteTab, it does not have the
      > problem I am discussing. The original still has the problem.
      > If I export from FireFox, then rename the file in the original
      > folder using Windows, then open the file in NoteTab, it
      > does not have the problem I am discussing.

      This is really, really weird. There is no explanation I can think of
      except that Windows itself is saving extra meta-information about files
      and NT can access that. You should do a file compare in hex
      (Totalcommander can do that). If they are identical, they ought to be
      after a simple copy and must be after rename, then it has to be external
      meta-information.

      Axel



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John Shotsky
      One last bit of information about this problem: When the file has been moved or renamed, it displays correctly in NoteTab, although it doesn t display the
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 12, 2013
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        One last bit of information about this problem:
        When the file has been moved or renamed, it displays correctly in NoteTab, although it doesn't display the accents. It
        displays standard English characters. However, when this same file is viewed in EditPad Pro, the original accents are
        still present. It is only the DISPLAY that is different between these two instances. So, in one case NoteTab displays
        one way, and in the other case a different way.

        From what I've read about code page detection, there are commands that search through a document and report on
        characters found. I still have no idea why moving or renaming a file provides different results to NoteTab. But it is
        apparently something about this search or the decision about how to display that is not working correctly.

        In my research, I found this fascinating tale of the history and basis of characters on computers:
        http://www.joelonsoftware.com/printerFriendly/articles/Unicode.html

        Regards,
        John
        RecipeTools Web Site: http://recipetools.gotdns.com/


        -----Original Message-----
        From: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Shotsky
        Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 05:06
        To: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [Clip] Code page/character issues

        Well, if it was mainstream, I wouldn't have brought it up here. At first, I thought maybe FireFox wasn't properly
        closing the file, which is why I rebooted between, but that didn't help. I've inspected properties, but that didn't show
        anything different between the before and after. The byte count doesn't change. But somehow, NoteTab is seeing
        'something' that I can't find, which is why I asked here. I'll see if I can find a more robust file metadata analyzer.
        FYI – EditPad Pro opens it fine, but it is also a Unicode editor, and I often use it to see what is 'really' in a text
        file.

        Now for the even weirder part: EditPad Pro DOES display it correctly in text view, but in hex/Ascii view, it shows the
        same thing as NoteTab!
        Text View: Speka Piragi
        Hex/Ascii View: Speķa Pīr�gi

        NoteTab correctly detects it as utf-8. But when I force it to Windows 1252, it displays as in NoteTab – incorrectly.
        That means that NoteTab is detecting it as Win1252 before it is renamed, and as UTF8 afterwards. Further, that means
        that either Windows or NoteTab is incorrectly detecting the code page. But, since EditPad Pro detects it correctly, I
        don't think it's Windows. This reminds me that, over time, I have often had problems with characters in NoteTab, and
        have done everything I could think of to resolve those issues. But this one seems unresolvable. (except for moving the
        file)

        Recipes, it turns out, can be very difficult, since they come from every country, and even when Anglicized, they often
        retain oddball characters. Web pages can display these characters fine, but text editors may have problems. I can't even
        guess why NoteTab detects the code page differently, but I am pretty certain that it is a NoteTab problem alone. I do
        not know what mechanism editors use to detect code pages.

        Regards,
        John
        RecipeTools Web Site: <http://recipetools.gotdns.com/> http://recipetools.gotdns.com/

        From: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Axel Berger
        Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 00:39
        To: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Clip] Code page/character issues


        John Shotsky wrote:
        > If I export from FireFox, then copy the file to another folder,
        > and then open the copy in NoteTab, it does not have the
        > problem I am discussing. The original still has the problem.
        > If I export from FireFox, then rename the file in the original
        > folder using Windows, then open the file in NoteTab, it
        > does not have the problem I am discussing.

        This is really, really weird. There is no explanation I can think of
        except that Windows itself is saving extra meta-information about files
        and NT can access that. You should do a file compare in hex
        (Totalcommander can do that). If they are identical, they ought to be
        after a simple copy and must be after rename, then it has to be external
        meta-information.

        Axel



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

        Fookes Software: http://www.fookes.com/
        NoteTab website: http://www.notetab.com/
        NoteTab Discussion Lists: http://www.notetab.com/groups.php

        ***
        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • John Wallace
        What would happen if you saved it as a .html file instead of .txt file? ... From: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 12, 2013
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          What would happen if you saved it as a .html file instead of .txt file?


          -----Original Message-----
          From: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Shotsky
          Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 05:06
          To: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [Clip] Code page/character issues

          Well, if it was mainstream, I wouldn't have brought it up here. At first, I thought maybe FireFox wasn't properly closing the file,
          which is why I rebooted between, but that didn't help. I've inspected properties, but that didn't show anything different between
          the before and after. The byte count doesn't change. But somehow, NoteTab is seeing 'something' that I can't find, which is why I
          asked here. I'll see if I can find a more robust file metadata analyzer.
          FYI – EditPad Pro opens it fine, but it is also a Unicode editor, and I often use it to see what is 'really' in a text file.

          Now for the even weirder part: EditPad Pro DOES display it correctly in text view, but in hex/Ascii view, it shows the same thing as
          NoteTab!
          Text View: Speka Piragi
          Hex/Ascii View: Speķa Pīrāgi

          NoteTab correctly detects it as utf-8. But when I force it to Windows 1252, it displays as in NoteTab – incorrectly.
          That means that NoteTab is detecting it as Win1252 before it is renamed, and as UTF8 afterwards. Further, that means that either
          Windows or NoteTab is incorrectly detecting the code page. But, since EditPad Pro detects it correctly, I don't think it's Windows.
          This reminds me that, over time, I have often had problems with characters in NoteTab, and have done everything I could think of to
          resolve those issues. But this one seems unresolvable. (except for moving the
          file)

          Recipes, it turns out, can be very difficult, since they come from every country, and even when Anglicized, they often retain
          oddball characters. Web pages can display these characters fine, but text editors may have problems. I can't even guess why NoteTab
          detects the code page differently, but I am pretty certain that it is a NoteTab problem alone. I do not know what mechanism editors
          use to detect code pages.

          Regards,
          John
          RecipeTools Web Site: <http://recipetools.gotdns.com/> http://recipetools.gotdns.com/

          From: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Axel Berger
          Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 00:39
          To: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Clip] Code page/character issues


          John Shotsky wrote:
          > If I export from FireFox, then copy the file to another folder, and
          > then open the copy in NoteTab, it does not have the problem I am
          > discussing. The original still has the problem.
          > If I export from FireFox, then rename the file in the original folder
          > using Windows, then open the file in NoteTab, it does not have the
          > problem I am discussing.

          This is really, really weird. There is no explanation I can think of except that Windows itself is saving extra meta-information
          about files and NT can access that. You should do a file compare in hex (Totalcommander can do that). If they are identical, they
          ought to be after a simple copy and must be after rename, then it has to be external meta-information.

          Axel
        • Axel Berger
          ... It has to, those characters are not in CP1252. Converting your sample and assuming mail transfer has not broken anything I get: Speķa Pīrāgi These are
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 12, 2013
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            John Shotsky wrote:
            > Text View: Speka Piragi
            > Hex/Ascii View: Speķa Pīrāgi
            > NoteTab correctly detects it as utf-8. But when I force it to
            > Windows 1252, it displays as in NoteTab – incorrectly.

            It has to, those characters are not in CP1252. Converting your sample
            and assuming mail transfer has not broken anything I get:

            Speķa Pīrāgi

            These are from the "extended block A"
            http://www.sql-und-xml.de/unicode-database/latin-extended-a.html

            NoteTab will never be able to deal with them satisfactorily. What I
            don't get at all is how Win7 interferes with them, but then I have so
            far refrained from using eXPerimental and stick to Win98. Even that
            tries to interfere and impose its preferences over mine, but there I can
            more or less control it. Your identical byte count might result from
            using UTF-16, don't newer Windoses do that? If so the byte count should
            be twice the letter count.

            > But, since EditPad Pro detects it correctly, I
            > don't think it's Windows.

            If editpad is true UTF, as you say, then it need not detect anything.
            Notetab is stricly 8-bit and strictly codepage based, all it can do is
            read letters from inside that single chosen codepage when encoded as
            UTF-8. Letters from more than one codepage inside the same document will
            never work.

            Axel
          • John Shotsky
            EditPad Pro is a Unicode editor, so yes, it displays Unicode and utf-8 and many other code pages correctly. But that file is not Unicode, it is 8-bit UTF. When
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 12, 2013
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              EditPad Pro is a Unicode editor, so yes, it displays Unicode and utf-8 and many other code pages correctly. But that
              file is not Unicode, it is 8-bit UTF. When one of these files is moved, NoteTab not only displays it correctly, but it
              also saves it correctly, that is, without the accents. So, that is the workaround for now. What is not acceptable is the
              file as first opened, which does not result in a question mark or any valid character in any code page. It is just
              garbage. Previously, NoteTab displayed a question mark for any character out of its map. Now, it doesn't.

              But that's not actually the point anyway. The file is UTF-8 when it is written, and after it is copied. Nothing is
              different about the file except that there is a copy in another location. The copy displays correctly in NoteTab, but
              the original doesn't. The copy works with my clip library, the original doesn't. If I export the original in NoteTab to
              UTF-8 it displays correctly, but of course just copying it works, as does renaming it, so I can't say the export
              actually does anything. However, if I export it to Ascii, question marks show up for those characters, as expected. The
              clip library can't work with a bunch of question marks either, of course, as there is no way to guess what the missing
              character is except through a very, very complex word map which replaces question marks with characters if the word is
              otherwise recognized. So, for the words you correctly detected below, I would simply substitute the unaccented
              characters for accented ones and that would be fine. But I can't do that with the original, because it displays EXTRA
              characters, as indicated in my 'Hex/Ascii' view below.

              So, for now, my instructions will include moving the FireFox-exported file to a work folder, and we'll go with that as
              long as it continues to work. As to the problem, I will leave it in the category of unresolvable.

              Regards,
              John
              RecipeTools Web Site: <http://recipetools.gotdns.com/> http://recipetools.gotdns.com/

              From: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Axel Berger
              Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 07:23
              To: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Clip] Code page/character issues


              John Shotsky wrote:
              > Text View: Speka Piragi
              > Hex/Ascii View: Spe��a P��r��gi
              > NoteTab correctly detects it as utf-8. But when I force it to
              > Windows 1252, it displays as in NoteTab � incorrectly.

              It has to, those characters are not in CP1252. Converting your sample
              and assuming mail transfer has not broken anything I get:

              Speka Piragi

              These are from the "extended block A"
              http://www.sql-und-xml.de/unicode-database/latin-extended-a.html

              NoteTab will never be able to deal with them satisfactorily. What I
              don't get at all is how Win7 interferes with them, but then I have so
              far refrained from using eXPerimental and stick to Win98. Even that
              tries to interfere and impose its preferences over mine, but there I can
              more or less control it. Your identical byte count might result from
              using UTF-16, don't newer Windoses do that? If so the byte count should
              be twice the letter count.

              > But, since EditPad Pro detects it correctly, I
              > don't think it's Windows.

              If editpad is true UTF, as you say, then it need not detect anything.
              Notetab is stricly 8-bit and strictly codepage based, all it can do is
              read letters from inside that single chosen codepage when encoded as
              UTF-8. Letters from more than one codepage inside the same document will
              never work.

              Axel



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Axel Berger
              ... To my understanding UTF-8 as a specific encoding is a subset, or rather one of several possible versions, of Unicode. ... Sorry, but if those letters do
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 12, 2013
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                John Shotsky wrote:
                > But that file is not Unicode, it is 8-bit UTF.

                To my understanding UTF-8 as a specific encoding is a subset, or rather
                one of several possible versions, of Unicode.

                > When one of these files is moved, NoteTab not only displays it
                > correctly, but it also saves it correctly, that is, without the
                > accents.

                Sorry, but if those letters do have accents, then anything without is
                INcorrect. It may be an acceptable workaround, like Muller or Mueller
                instead of Müller, but never correct.

                > So, that is the workaround for now.

                Right

                > But that's not actually the point anyway.

                Agreed. Win7 does something strange here and I'm very happy I need not
                concern myself with that.

                > As to the problem, I will leave it in the category of unresolvable.

                Probably best.
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