Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [Clip] Code page/character issues

Expand Messages
  • John Shotsky
    When the text file is exported from Firefox, then opened in NoteTab, it has the problem I am discussing. Every time, for the same export. If I export from
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 11, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      When the text file is exported from Firefox, then opened in NoteTab, it has the problem I am discussing. Every time, for
      the same export.
      If I export from FireFox, then reboot my computer, and then open the file with NoteTab, it has the problem I am
      discussing.
      If I open the file from FireFox, then save it with another name, it still has the same problem.
      If I open the file from FireFox, copy the contents, then paste into a new file and save THAT, it still has the same
      problem.
      If I export from FireFox, then copy the file to another folder, and then open the copy in NoteTab, it does not have the
      problem I am discussing. The original still has the problem.
      If I export from FireFox, then rename the file in the original folder using Windows, then open the file in NoteTab, it
      does not have the problem I am discussing. There is no original at this point.
      I can show it with screenshots, but if I copy or rename the file, the problem vanishes. Win7-64.
      Regards,
      John
      RecipeTools Web Site: <http://recipetools.gotdns.com/> http://recipetools.gotdns.com/

      From: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Axel Berger
      Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 13:47
      To: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Clip] Code page/character issues


      John Shotsky wrote:
      > If I open the original, it has the problem.

      Almost certainly not. Your "original" has already been opened and
      probably saved by NT at least once before. NT saves info about recent
      files in Note*.fpr. When I encounter intractable UTF problems, I rename
      the file and open it then, does the same trick.

      > at least I can tell my users to copy it to a different work folder
      > before opening it.

      If they do that before opening it for the first time, they'll achieve
      nothing.

      But you can include the technique in a clip: Save the file, Rename it
      through ^!Dos (wait a second for cacheing), and open the "new" one. Even
      better, if you can make your users open NT with the /RawUTF8 parameter,
      your problems ought to be solved.

      (I should have remembered. When introduced I refrained from using that,
      because I wanted to keep the way back to version 5.8 and 6.2 open. By
      now I feel quite safe in 7.x and ought to reconsider. Now, where and how
      to find each and every place where NT is evoked? Registry, Programs
      folder, Links, Commands in dozens of shell-like programs, ... -- looks a
      lot like a big fool's errand, and needs to be done on at least three
      machines: Eric, a command line parameter is good, a setting would be
      much much better.)

      Axel



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Axel Berger
      ... This is really, really weird. There is no explanation I can think of except that Windows itself is saving extra meta-information about files and NT can
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 12, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        John Shotsky wrote:
        > If I export from FireFox, then copy the file to another folder,
        > and then open the copy in NoteTab, it does not have the
        > problem I am discussing. The original still has the problem.
        > If I export from FireFox, then rename the file in the original
        > folder using Windows, then open the file in NoteTab, it
        > does not have the problem I am discussing.

        This is really, really weird. There is no explanation I can think of
        except that Windows itself is saving extra meta-information about files
        and NT can access that. You should do a file compare in hex
        (Totalcommander can do that). If they are identical, they ought to be
        after a simple copy and must be after rename, then it has to be external
        meta-information.

        Axel
      • John Shotsky
        Well, if it was mainstream, I wouldn t have brought it up here. At first, I thought maybe FireFox wasn t properly closing the file, which is why I rebooted
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 12, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Well, if it was mainstream, I wouldn't have brought it up here. At first, I thought maybe FireFox wasn't properly
          closing the file, which is why I rebooted between, but that didn't help. I've inspected properties, but that didn't show
          anything different between the before and after. The byte count doesn't change. But somehow, NoteTab is seeing
          'something' that I can't find, which is why I asked here. I'll see if I can find a more robust file metadata analyzer.
          FYI � EditPad Pro opens it fine, but it is also a Unicode editor, and I often use it to see what is 'really' in a text
          file.

          Now for the even weirder part: EditPad Pro DOES display it correctly in text view, but in hex/Ascii view, it shows the
          same thing as NoteTab!
          Text View: Speka Piragi
          Hex/Ascii View: Spe��a P��r��gi

          NoteTab correctly detects it as utf-8. But when I force it to Windows 1252, it displays as in NoteTab � incorrectly.
          That means that NoteTab is detecting it as Win1252 before it is renamed, and as UTF8 afterwards. Further, that means
          that either Windows or NoteTab is incorrectly detecting the code page. But, since EditPad Pro detects it correctly, I
          don't think it's Windows. This reminds me that, over time, I have often had problems with characters in NoteTab, and
          have done everything I could think of to resolve those issues. But this one seems unresolvable. (except for moving the
          file)

          Recipes, it turns out, can be very difficult, since they come from every country, and even when Anglicized, they often
          retain oddball characters. Web pages can display these characters fine, but text editors may have problems. I can't even
          guess why NoteTab detects the code page differently, but I am pretty certain that it is a NoteTab problem alone. I do
          not know what mechanism editors use to detect code pages.

          Regards,
          John
          RecipeTools Web Site: <http://recipetools.gotdns.com/> http://recipetools.gotdns.com/

          From: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Axel Berger
          Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 00:39
          To: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Clip] Code page/character issues


          John Shotsky wrote:
          > If I export from FireFox, then copy the file to another folder,
          > and then open the copy in NoteTab, it does not have the
          > problem I am discussing. The original still has the problem.
          > If I export from FireFox, then rename the file in the original
          > folder using Windows, then open the file in NoteTab, it
          > does not have the problem I am discussing.

          This is really, really weird. There is no explanation I can think of
          except that Windows itself is saving extra meta-information about files
          and NT can access that. You should do a file compare in hex
          (Totalcommander can do that). If they are identical, they ought to be
          after a simple copy and must be after rename, then it has to be external
          meta-information.

          Axel



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John Shotsky
          One last bit of information about this problem: When the file has been moved or renamed, it displays correctly in NoteTab, although it doesn t display the
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 12, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            One last bit of information about this problem:
            When the file has been moved or renamed, it displays correctly in NoteTab, although it doesn't display the accents. It
            displays standard English characters. However, when this same file is viewed in EditPad Pro, the original accents are
            still present. It is only the DISPLAY that is different between these two instances. So, in one case NoteTab displays
            one way, and in the other case a different way.

            From what I've read about code page detection, there are commands that search through a document and report on
            characters found. I still have no idea why moving or renaming a file provides different results to NoteTab. But it is
            apparently something about this search or the decision about how to display that is not working correctly.

            In my research, I found this fascinating tale of the history and basis of characters on computers:
            http://www.joelonsoftware.com/printerFriendly/articles/Unicode.html

            Regards,
            John
            RecipeTools Web Site: http://recipetools.gotdns.com/


            -----Original Message-----
            From: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Shotsky
            Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 05:06
            To: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [Clip] Code page/character issues

            Well, if it was mainstream, I wouldn't have brought it up here. At first, I thought maybe FireFox wasn't properly
            closing the file, which is why I rebooted between, but that didn't help. I've inspected properties, but that didn't show
            anything different between the before and after. The byte count doesn't change. But somehow, NoteTab is seeing
            'something' that I can't find, which is why I asked here. I'll see if I can find a more robust file metadata analyzer.
            FYI – EditPad Pro opens it fine, but it is also a Unicode editor, and I often use it to see what is 'really' in a text
            file.

            Now for the even weirder part: EditPad Pro DOES display it correctly in text view, but in hex/Ascii view, it shows the
            same thing as NoteTab!
            Text View: Speka Piragi
            Hex/Ascii View: Speķa Pīr�gi

            NoteTab correctly detects it as utf-8. But when I force it to Windows 1252, it displays as in NoteTab – incorrectly.
            That means that NoteTab is detecting it as Win1252 before it is renamed, and as UTF8 afterwards. Further, that means
            that either Windows or NoteTab is incorrectly detecting the code page. But, since EditPad Pro detects it correctly, I
            don't think it's Windows. This reminds me that, over time, I have often had problems with characters in NoteTab, and
            have done everything I could think of to resolve those issues. But this one seems unresolvable. (except for moving the
            file)

            Recipes, it turns out, can be very difficult, since they come from every country, and even when Anglicized, they often
            retain oddball characters. Web pages can display these characters fine, but text editors may have problems. I can't even
            guess why NoteTab detects the code page differently, but I am pretty certain that it is a NoteTab problem alone. I do
            not know what mechanism editors use to detect code pages.

            Regards,
            John
            RecipeTools Web Site: <http://recipetools.gotdns.com/> http://recipetools.gotdns.com/

            From: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Axel Berger
            Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 00:39
            To: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Clip] Code page/character issues


            John Shotsky wrote:
            > If I export from FireFox, then copy the file to another folder,
            > and then open the copy in NoteTab, it does not have the
            > problem I am discussing. The original still has the problem.
            > If I export from FireFox, then rename the file in the original
            > folder using Windows, then open the file in NoteTab, it
            > does not have the problem I am discussing.

            This is really, really weird. There is no explanation I can think of
            except that Windows itself is saving extra meta-information about files
            and NT can access that. You should do a file compare in hex
            (Totalcommander can do that). If they are identical, they ought to be
            after a simple copy and must be after rename, then it has to be external
            meta-information.

            Axel



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            Fookes Software: http://www.fookes.com/
            NoteTab website: http://www.notetab.com/
            NoteTab Discussion Lists: http://www.notetab.com/groups.php

            ***
            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • John Wallace
            What would happen if you saved it as a .html file instead of .txt file? ... From: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 12, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              What would happen if you saved it as a .html file instead of .txt file?


              -----Original Message-----
              From: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Shotsky
              Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 05:06
              To: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [Clip] Code page/character issues

              Well, if it was mainstream, I wouldn't have brought it up here. At first, I thought maybe FireFox wasn't properly closing the file,
              which is why I rebooted between, but that didn't help. I've inspected properties, but that didn't show anything different between
              the before and after. The byte count doesn't change. But somehow, NoteTab is seeing 'something' that I can't find, which is why I
              asked here. I'll see if I can find a more robust file metadata analyzer.
              FYI – EditPad Pro opens it fine, but it is also a Unicode editor, and I often use it to see what is 'really' in a text file.

              Now for the even weirder part: EditPad Pro DOES display it correctly in text view, but in hex/Ascii view, it shows the same thing as
              NoteTab!
              Text View: Speka Piragi
              Hex/Ascii View: Speķa Pīrāgi

              NoteTab correctly detects it as utf-8. But when I force it to Windows 1252, it displays as in NoteTab – incorrectly.
              That means that NoteTab is detecting it as Win1252 before it is renamed, and as UTF8 afterwards. Further, that means that either
              Windows or NoteTab is incorrectly detecting the code page. But, since EditPad Pro detects it correctly, I don't think it's Windows.
              This reminds me that, over time, I have often had problems with characters in NoteTab, and have done everything I could think of to
              resolve those issues. But this one seems unresolvable. (except for moving the
              file)

              Recipes, it turns out, can be very difficult, since they come from every country, and even when Anglicized, they often retain
              oddball characters. Web pages can display these characters fine, but text editors may have problems. I can't even guess why NoteTab
              detects the code page differently, but I am pretty certain that it is a NoteTab problem alone. I do not know what mechanism editors
              use to detect code pages.

              Regards,
              John
              RecipeTools Web Site: <http://recipetools.gotdns.com/> http://recipetools.gotdns.com/

              From: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Axel Berger
              Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 00:39
              To: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Clip] Code page/character issues


              John Shotsky wrote:
              > If I export from FireFox, then copy the file to another folder, and
              > then open the copy in NoteTab, it does not have the problem I am
              > discussing. The original still has the problem.
              > If I export from FireFox, then rename the file in the original folder
              > using Windows, then open the file in NoteTab, it does not have the
              > problem I am discussing.

              This is really, really weird. There is no explanation I can think of except that Windows itself is saving extra meta-information
              about files and NT can access that. You should do a file compare in hex (Totalcommander can do that). If they are identical, they
              ought to be after a simple copy and must be after rename, then it has to be external meta-information.

              Axel
            • Axel Berger
              ... It has to, those characters are not in CP1252. Converting your sample and assuming mail transfer has not broken anything I get: Speķa Pīrāgi These are
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 12, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                John Shotsky wrote:
                > Text View: Speka Piragi
                > Hex/Ascii View: Speķa Pīrāgi
                > NoteTab correctly detects it as utf-8. But when I force it to
                > Windows 1252, it displays as in NoteTab – incorrectly.

                It has to, those characters are not in CP1252. Converting your sample
                and assuming mail transfer has not broken anything I get:

                Speķa Pīrāgi

                These are from the "extended block A"
                http://www.sql-und-xml.de/unicode-database/latin-extended-a.html

                NoteTab will never be able to deal with them satisfactorily. What I
                don't get at all is how Win7 interferes with them, but then I have so
                far refrained from using eXPerimental and stick to Win98. Even that
                tries to interfere and impose its preferences over mine, but there I can
                more or less control it. Your identical byte count might result from
                using UTF-16, don't newer Windoses do that? If so the byte count should
                be twice the letter count.

                > But, since EditPad Pro detects it correctly, I
                > don't think it's Windows.

                If editpad is true UTF, as you say, then it need not detect anything.
                Notetab is stricly 8-bit and strictly codepage based, all it can do is
                read letters from inside that single chosen codepage when encoded as
                UTF-8. Letters from more than one codepage inside the same document will
                never work.

                Axel
              • John Shotsky
                EditPad Pro is a Unicode editor, so yes, it displays Unicode and utf-8 and many other code pages correctly. But that file is not Unicode, it is 8-bit UTF. When
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 12, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  EditPad Pro is a Unicode editor, so yes, it displays Unicode and utf-8 and many other code pages correctly. But that
                  file is not Unicode, it is 8-bit UTF. When one of these files is moved, NoteTab not only displays it correctly, but it
                  also saves it correctly, that is, without the accents. So, that is the workaround for now. What is not acceptable is the
                  file as first opened, which does not result in a question mark or any valid character in any code page. It is just
                  garbage. Previously, NoteTab displayed a question mark for any character out of its map. Now, it doesn't.

                  But that's not actually the point anyway. The file is UTF-8 when it is written, and after it is copied. Nothing is
                  different about the file except that there is a copy in another location. The copy displays correctly in NoteTab, but
                  the original doesn't. The copy works with my clip library, the original doesn't. If I export the original in NoteTab to
                  UTF-8 it displays correctly, but of course just copying it works, as does renaming it, so I can't say the export
                  actually does anything. However, if I export it to Ascii, question marks show up for those characters, as expected. The
                  clip library can't work with a bunch of question marks either, of course, as there is no way to guess what the missing
                  character is except through a very, very complex word map which replaces question marks with characters if the word is
                  otherwise recognized. So, for the words you correctly detected below, I would simply substitute the unaccented
                  characters for accented ones and that would be fine. But I can't do that with the original, because it displays EXTRA
                  characters, as indicated in my 'Hex/Ascii' view below.

                  So, for now, my instructions will include moving the FireFox-exported file to a work folder, and we'll go with that as
                  long as it continues to work. As to the problem, I will leave it in the category of unresolvable.

                  Regards,
                  John
                  RecipeTools Web Site: <http://recipetools.gotdns.com/> http://recipetools.gotdns.com/

                  From: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Axel Berger
                  Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 07:23
                  To: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Clip] Code page/character issues


                  John Shotsky wrote:
                  > Text View: Speka Piragi
                  > Hex/Ascii View: Spe��a P��r��gi
                  > NoteTab correctly detects it as utf-8. But when I force it to
                  > Windows 1252, it displays as in NoteTab � incorrectly.

                  It has to, those characters are not in CP1252. Converting your sample
                  and assuming mail transfer has not broken anything I get:

                  Speka Piragi

                  These are from the "extended block A"
                  http://www.sql-und-xml.de/unicode-database/latin-extended-a.html

                  NoteTab will never be able to deal with them satisfactorily. What I
                  don't get at all is how Win7 interferes with them, but then I have so
                  far refrained from using eXPerimental and stick to Win98. Even that
                  tries to interfere and impose its preferences over mine, but there I can
                  more or less control it. Your identical byte count might result from
                  using UTF-16, don't newer Windoses do that? If so the byte count should
                  be twice the letter count.

                  > But, since EditPad Pro detects it correctly, I
                  > don't think it's Windows.

                  If editpad is true UTF, as you say, then it need not detect anything.
                  Notetab is stricly 8-bit and strictly codepage based, all it can do is
                  read letters from inside that single chosen codepage when encoded as
                  UTF-8. Letters from more than one codepage inside the same document will
                  never work.

                  Axel



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Axel Berger
                  ... To my understanding UTF-8 as a specific encoding is a subset, or rather one of several possible versions, of Unicode. ... Sorry, but if those letters do
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 12, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    John Shotsky wrote:
                    > But that file is not Unicode, it is 8-bit UTF.

                    To my understanding UTF-8 as a specific encoding is a subset, or rather
                    one of several possible versions, of Unicode.

                    > When one of these files is moved, NoteTab not only displays it
                    > correctly, but it also saves it correctly, that is, without the
                    > accents.

                    Sorry, but if those letters do have accents, then anything without is
                    INcorrect. It may be an acceptable workaround, like Muller or Mueller
                    instead of Müller, but never correct.

                    > So, that is the workaround for now.

                    Right

                    > But that's not actually the point anyway.

                    Agreed. Win7 does something strange here and I'm very happy I need not
                    concern myself with that.

                    > As to the problem, I will leave it in the category of unresolvable.

                    Probably best.
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.