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Re: Finding help for an optimal use of NoteTabPro

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  • flo.gehrke
    ... Hi Patrick, Here s a little NT Translating Engine ...;-) Take the following list and save it as MYDIC.TXT: beginning|Anfang God|Gott created|schuf
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 3, 2011
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      --- In ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Forkin" <pm4kin@...> wrote:

      > I have today decided to buy the product and use it as a base
      > to publish a description of a model to translate texts I write
      > in English into German...

      Hi Patrick,

      Here's a little "NT Translating Engine"...;-)

      Take the following list and save it as MYDIC.TXT:

      beginning|Anfang
      God|Gott
      created|schuf
      heaven|Himmel
      and|und
      earth|Erde
      was|war
      without|ohne
      darkness|Finsternis
      upon|auf
      face|Angesicht
      deep|Tiefe
      Spirit|Geist
      waters|Wassern


      (avoid empty line at the end!)

      Next, take the following text and insert it into an empty document:

      In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

      Now start the following clip:

      ^!SetScreenUpdate Off
      ^!Toolbar New Document
      ^!InsertFile ^$GetDocumentPath$MYDIC.TXT
      ^!Replace "|" >> "^P" AWS
      ^!SetListDelimiter ^P
      ^!SetArray %Dic%=^$GetText$
      ^!Close Discard
      ^!Set %i%=1
      ^!Jump 1

      :Loop
      ^!Set %Find%=^%Dic^%i%%
      ^!Inc %i%
      ^!Set %Repl%=^%Dic^%i%%
      ^!Replace "^%Find%" >> "^%Repl%" AWS
      ^!Inc %i%
      ^!If ^%i% > ^%Dic0% End
      ^!Goto Loop

      I hope it's not too bad for the beginning...

      Regards,
      Flo
    • Patrick Forkin
      Hallo Flo! Thanks for the response. My real problem lies in being able to give English words, role tags, to allow them to be translated correctly. As examples:
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 3, 2011
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        Hallo Flo!

        Thanks for the response. My real problem lies in being able to give English words, role tags, to allow them to be translated correctly.

        As examples:
        1. the English direct article "The" has 24 variants in German
        2. the indirect article has 12 variants
        3. Adjectives have 24 and
        4. Nouns have 4.

        Adding the effects of inflection with neuter nouns used with indirect article are an additional issue.
        One can either develop a rule based dictionary structure or a table based. I chose to go down the table based route for a variety of reasons.

        I will look at what you have snt me, for which I thanke you, and let you know the results.

        Thanks and regards. Happy New Year, Patrick.
        p.s.
        Are you German?
        Your name sounds german and you have a German email address.
        If you are, wher are you located?
        I live in the vacinity of Passau in Niederbayern.


        -------- Original-Nachricht --------
        > Datum: Mon, 03 Jan 2011 15:55:57 -0000
        > Von: "flo.gehrke" <flo.gehrke@...>
        > An: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com
        > Betreff: [Clip] Re: Finding help for an optimal use of NoteTabPro

        > --- In ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Forkin" <pm4kin@...> wrote:
        >
        > > I have today decided to buy the product and use it as a base
        > > to publish a description of a model to translate texts I write
        > > in English into German...
        >
        > Hi Patrick,
        >
        > Here's a little "NT Translating Engine"...;-)
        >
        > Take the following list and save it as MYDIC.TXT:
        >
        > beginning|Anfang
        > God|Gott
        > created|schuf
        > heaven|Himmel
        > and|und
        > earth|Erde
        > was|war
        > without|ohne
        > darkness|Finsternis
        > upon|auf
        > face|Angesicht
        > deep|Tiefe
        > Spirit|Geist
        > waters|Wassern
        >
        >
        > (avoid empty line at the end!)
        >
        > Next, take the following text and insert it into an empty document:
        >
        > In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was
        > without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the
        > Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
        >
        > Now start the following clip:
        >
        > ^!SetScreenUpdate Off
        > ^!Toolbar New Document
        > ^!InsertFile ^$GetDocumentPath$MYDIC.TXT
        > ^!Replace "|" >> "^P" AWS
        > ^!SetListDelimiter ^P
        > ^!SetArray %Dic%=^$GetText$
        > ^!Close Discard
        > ^!Set %i%=1
        > ^!Jump 1
        >
        > :Loop
        > ^!Set %Find%=^%Dic^%i%%
        > ^!Inc %i%
        > ^!Set %Repl%=^%Dic^%i%%
        > ^!Replace "^%Find%" >> "^%Repl%" AWS
        > ^!Inc %i%
        > ^!If ^%i% > ^%Dic0% End
        > ^!Goto Loop
        >
        > I hope it's not too bad for the beginning...
        >
        > Regards,
        > Flo
        >
      • Eb
        I ve had occasion to toy around with multiple verb forms. It never led to anything, but the approach I took was to create a database file (just a text file,
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 3, 2011
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          I've had occasion to toy around with multiple verb forms.
          It never led to anything, but the approach I took was to create a database file (just a text file, with comma-delimiters) containing the list of verbs of interest.

          The fields were organized under the headers of
          "I,you,he,she,it,we,you,they,(repeating in the verious tenses, to all possible forms (for example 'I will have,you will have,...)"

          I then used a custom function to extract the proper form for a given verb, by passing the index to the desired tense and person.

          ^$UdfGetVerb(^%verb%;^%tense%;^%person%)$

          The guts of the Udf was:

          ^!Set %result%=Error message
          ^!SetArray %args%=^&
          ;test args for numbers, then:
          ^!Set %field%=^$Calc(^%tense%*^%person%)$
          ^!Set %Result%=^$GetField(^%args1%;^%field%)$

          Once created, the template clip (containing multiple udf calls) would run the udf clip each instance, and automatically parse as the correct verb form.

          Good luck.


          Eb


          --- In ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Forkin" <pm4kin@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thanks for the response. My real problem lies in being able to give English words, role tags, to allow them to be translated correctly.
          >
          > As examples:
          > 1. the English direct article "The" has 24 variants in German

          Hmm, are you sure you're not overating the scope of 'the'?


          > 2. the indirect article has 12 variants
          > 3. Adjectives have 24 and
          > 4. Nouns have 4.


          I'd be curious to see the 4 variants for, say, "table".
        • Axel Berger
          ... Tisch, Tisches, Tische - three. Actually four different ones are rare (if they exist) because tow tend to be identical, but not always the same two.
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 3, 2011
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            Eb wrote:
            > I'd be curious to see the 4 variants for, say, "table".

            Tisch, Tisches, Tische - three. Actually four different ones are rare
            (if they exist) because tow tend to be identical, but not always the
            same two. Compare

            Tisch, Tisches, Tische, Tisch
            Mensch, Menschen, Menschen, Menschen

            In fact this holds true for most languages except English, which is why
            that is such a good choice for a common second language. In Russian it's
            not four cases but six.

            Axel

            --
            Dipl.-Ing. F. Axel Berger Tel: +49/ 2174/ 7439 07
            Johann-Häck-Str. 14 Fax: +49/ 2174/ 7439 68
            D-51519 Odenthal-Heide eMail: Axel-Berger@...
            Deutschland (Germany) http://berger-odenthal.de
          • Eb
            Thanks Axel, I guess I should have asked for the names of the four forms. I can only come up with singular, plural, and posessive . Singular, posessive,
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 3, 2011
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              Thanks Axel,

              I guess I should have asked for the names of the four forms. I can only come up with "singular, plural, and posessive".

              Singular, posessive, plural, ?
              Table, table's, tables,

              Eb


              --- In ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com, Axel Berger <Axel-Berger@...> wrote:
              >
              > Eb wrote:
              > > I'd be curious to see the 4 variants for, say, "table".
              >
              > Tisch, Tisches, Tische - three. Actually four different ones are rare
              > (if they exist) because tow tend to be identical, but not always the
              > same two. Compare
              >
              > Tisch, Tisches, Tische, Tisch
              > Mensch, Menschen, Menschen, Menschen
              >
              > In fact this holds true for most languages except English, which is why
              > that is such a good choice for a common second language. In Russian it's
              > not four cases but six.
              >
              > Axel
              >
              > --
              > Dipl.-Ing. F. Axel Berger Tel: +49/ 2174/ 7439 07
              > Johann-Häck-Str. 14 Fax: +49/ 2174/ 7439 68
              > D-51519 Odenthal-Heide eMail: Axel-Berger@...
              > Deutschland (Germany) http://berger-odenthal.de
              >
            • Axel Berger
              ... No, it s all singular. Adding in plural would make them eight. I m neither comfortable with the English nor the German terms, in the Gymnasium (grammar
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 3, 2011
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                Eb wrote:
                > I can only come up with "singular, plural, and posessive".

                No, it's all singular. Adding in plural would make them eight. I'm
                neither comfortable with the English nor the German terms, in the
                Gymnasium (grammar school, not sports stadium) we used the Latin ones:

                Nominativ: Who are you?
                Genitiv: Whose is this purse?
                Dativ: Whom did you give presents to?
                Akkusatitiv: Whom do you dislike too much to give presents to?
                or: Whom would you like to punch on the nose?

                N.B: as you're probably less familiar with the difference between Dativ
                and Akkusativ look at this sentence:

                A gave my son a dog for Christmas.
                A gave a dog my son for Christmas.

                As in German the Dativ (meinem Sohn, einem Hund) and Akkusativ (meinen
                Sohn, einen Hund) forms are different, both word orders can be and are
                used and place the stress on different things. As a general rule while
                english grammar is simpler, English word order is much more strongly
                proscribed than in other languages, although in the case above the
                problem could have been solved by adding a "to" to the second sentence.

                By the way the English have this lovely traditional idiosyncrasy that us
                [sic!] foreigners had to learn: "Who wants to help?" "Me". In every
                other language it would have been "I". Now the Americans don't want to
                speak English any more (actually, contrary to the written form, spoken
                American is already unintelligible to English speakers) but something
                more international. As so often happens they overcompensate and say
                stuff like "They invited my husband and I for dinner." which is complete
                gibberish. Here of course it must be "me", as the question is "whom" not
                "who".

                (Can you tell I really love this stuff? Language is wonderful and bad
                use of it, especially many Americanisms in currrent German, rather
                painful to my ears.)

                Axel

                --
                Dipl.-Ing. F. Axel Berger Tel: +49/ 2174/ 7439 07
                Johann-Häck-Str. 14 Fax: +49/ 2174/ 7439 68
                D-51519 Odenthal-Heide eMail: Axel-Berger@...
                Deutschland (Germany) http://berger-odenthal.de
              • Patrick Forkin
                Good morning, Flo! Following your steps as I have understood them, I arrive at a point where I have 1. A stored MYDIC.txt file. 2. An open but not stored
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 4, 2011
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                  Good morning, Flo!

                  Following your steps as I have understood them, I arrive at a point where I have
                  1. A stored MYDIC.txt file.
                  2. An open but not stored document with the suggested text to be translated.
                  3. A second opened document, unstored, with the script.

                  Please do not think that I am stupid, when I ask where do I go from there.

                  When I have done that with your help then I can respond, more intelligently.

                  Regards, Patrick.

                  -------- Original-Nachricht --------
                  > Datum: Mon, 03 Jan 2011 15:55:57 -0000
                  > Von: "flo.gehrke" <flo.gehrke@...>
                  > An: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com
                  > Betreff: [Clip] Re: Finding help for an optimal use of NoteTabPro

                  > --- In ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Forkin" <pm4kin@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > I have today decided to buy the product and use it as a base
                  > > to publish a description of a model to translate texts I write
                  > > in English into German...
                  >
                  > Hi Patrick,
                  >
                  > Here's a little "NT Translating Engine"...;-)
                  >
                  > Take the following list and save it as MYDIC.TXT:
                  >
                  > beginning|Anfang
                  > God|Gott
                  > created|schuf
                  > heaven|Himmel
                  > and|und
                  > earth|Erde
                  > was|war
                  > without|ohne
                  > darkness|Finsternis
                  > upon|auf
                  > face|Angesicht
                  > deep|Tiefe
                  > Spirit|Geist
                  > waters|Wassern
                  >
                  >
                  > (avoid empty line at the end!)
                  >
                  > Next, take the following text and insert it into an empty document:
                  >
                  > In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was
                  > without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the
                  > Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
                  >
                  > Now start the following clip:
                  >
                  > ^!SetScreenUpdate Off
                  > ^!Toolbar New Document
                  > ^!InsertFile ^$GetDocumentPath$MYDIC.TXT
                  > ^!Replace "|" >> "^P" AWS
                  > ^!SetListDelimiter ^P
                  > ^!SetArray %Dic%=^$GetText$
                  > ^!Close Discard
                  > ^!Set %i%=1
                  > ^!Jump 1
                  >
                  > :Loop
                  > ^!Set %Find%=^%Dic^%i%%
                  > ^!Inc %i%
                  > ^!Set %Repl%=^%Dic^%i%%
                  > ^!Replace "^%Find%" >> "^%Repl%" AWS
                  > ^!Inc %i%
                  > ^!If ^%i% > ^%Dic0% End
                  > ^!Goto Loop
                  >
                  > I hope it's not too bad for the beginning...
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Flo
                  >
                • Patrick Forkin
                  Hallo Axel and other topic mambers! Anyone who had learnt Latin would have also known of the additional case called Ablative, which has long since been
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 4, 2011
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                    Hallo Axel and other topic mambers!

                    Anyone who had learnt Latin would have also known of the additional case called Ablative, which has long since been dispensed with.

                    Taking the example sentence of:

                    <nom>A</nom/> <vb>gave</vb> <dat>my son</dat> <acc>a dog</acc>
                    <dat>for Christmas</dat.
                    <nom>A</nom/> <vb>gave</vb> <acc>a dog</acc> <dat>to my son</dat>
                    <dat>for Christmas</dat.

                    All of the phrase elements in the English form are the same as in the German form, in thes examples. I, as an English person, who has spent half of his life in Germany, am in the process of creating the dictionary, to translate around the problem of word-roles which the English language cannot address.

                    I have taken the route of using tables rather than programmed rules to create the words. The basic 2.000 English words will result in around 30.000 dictionary entries.

                    When I am far enough down the road I will explain the model and process in detail. I am at the moment keeping the process close to my chest becaus I wish to publish the model. The created revenue will be put into a fund for children.

                    Regards and a Happy New Year, Patrick Forkin.

                    -------- Original-Nachricht --------
                    > Datum: Tue, 04 Jan 2011 02:41:21 +0100
                    > Von: Axel Berger <Axel-Berger@...>
                    > An: ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com
                    > Betreff: Re: [Clip] Re: Finding help for an optimal use of NoteTabPro

                    > Eb wrote:
                    > > I can only come up with "singular, plural, and posessive".
                    >
                    > No, it's all singular. Adding in plural would make them eight. I'm
                    > neither comfortable with the English nor the German terms, in the
                    > Gymnasium (grammar school, not sports stadium) we used the Latin ones:
                    >
                    > Nominativ: Who are you?
                    > Genitiv: Whose is this purse?
                    > Dativ: Whom did you give presents to?
                    > Akkusatitiv: Whom do you dislike too much to give presents to?
                    > or: Whom would you like to punch on the nose?
                    >
                    > N.B: as you're probably less familiar with the difference between Dativ
                    > and Akkusativ look at this sentence:
                    >
                    > A gave my son a dog for Christmas.
                    > A gave a dog my son for Christmas.
                    >
                    > As in German the Dativ (meinem Sohn, einem Hund) and Akkusativ (meinen
                    > Sohn, einen Hund) forms are different, both word orders can be and are
                    > used and place the stress on different things. As a general rule while
                    > english grammar is simpler, English word order is much more strongly
                    > proscribed than in other languages, although in the case above the
                    > problem could have been solved by adding a "to" to the second sentence.
                    >
                    > By the way the English have this lovely traditional idiosyncrasy that us
                    > [sic!] foreigners had to learn: "Who wants to help?" "Me". In every
                    > other language it would have been "I". Now the Americans don't want to
                    > speak English any more (actually, contrary to the written form, spoken
                    > American is already unintelligible to English speakers) but something
                    > more international. As so often happens they overcompensate and say
                    > stuff like "They invited my husband and I for dinner." which is complete
                    > gibberish. Here of course it must be "me", as the question is "whom" not
                    > "who".
                    >
                    > (Can you tell I really love this stuff? Language is wonderful and bad
                    > use of it, especially many Americanisms in currrent German, rather
                    > painful to my ears.)
                    >
                    > Axel
                    >
                    > --
                    > Dipl.-Ing. F. Axel Berger Tel: +49/ 2174/ 7439 07
                    > Johann-Häck-Str. 14 Fax: +49/ 2174/ 7439 68
                    > D-51519 Odenthal-Heide eMail: Axel-Berger@...
                    > Deutschland (Germany) http://berger-odenthal.de
                  • flo.gehrke
                    ... Patrick, Regarding... #1: Please note that MYDIC.TXT must be stored in the default directory ... Documents. #3: You have to store that script (or clip in
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 4, 2011
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                      --- In ntb-clips@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Forkin" <pm4kin@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Good morning, Flo!
                      >
                      > Following your steps as I have understood them, I arrive at a
                      > point where I have
                      > 1. A stored MYDIC.txt file.
                      > 2. An open but not stored document with the suggested text to
                      > be translated.
                      > 3. A second opened document, unstored, with the script.
                      >
                      > Please do not think that I am stupid, when I ask where do I go from there.
                      >
                      > When I have done that with your help then I can respond, more intelligently.
                      >
                      > Regards, Patrick.

                      Patrick,

                      Regarding...

                      #1: Please note that MYDIC.TXT must be stored in the default directory ...\Documents.

                      #3: You have to store that script (or "clip" in NT-terminology) in a clipbook. For an efficient use of NT you will have to become acquainted with clips anyway. For further details, please have a look at "Help | How to... | Create Clipbook Libraries".

                      BTW: Of course, my "engine" wasn't meant for complete translations. It was derived from further developed clips I use for indexing text databases (creating descriptors, thesaurus, stop-words, standardizing terminology etc). Certainly, it could be used for tagging words.

                      In my view, the advantage over solutions based on user dictionaries and autoreplace is:

                      1. you have a better control of the vocabulary since it is stored in a normal TXT file.

                      2. You can use Regular Expressions which offer an approach to dealing with flexion forms, synonyms etc (and even word tagging).

                      Regards,
                      Flo

                      ...with greetings to you from Oberbayern (Upper Bavaria)
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