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RE: [Clip] isnumber function - calculating with letters

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  • John Wallace
    I don t have any knowledge on this, just thinking out loud. I would say the a is interpeted as not numeric and given a binary value of zero. Possibly the
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 4, 2006
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      I don't have any knowledge on this, just thinking out loud.

      I would say the 'a' is interpeted as not numeric and given a binary value of zero.
      Possibly the letter 'a' needs a declaration to show it's a variable instead of a letter?




      John Wallace
      Pontiac Power RULES !!!
      www.wallaceracing.com

      Subject: Re: [Clip] isnumber function - calculating with letters

      Don,
      It isn't only multiplication. A single letter a-z always is 0. Anyone knows why this is?

      a+1=1
      a*1=0
      a/1=0
      a^1=0
      1^a=1
      a*a=0

      For example these return an error, same as they do if 0 is used instead of a.
      1/a=[error]
      ln(a)=[error]

      So this would work too.
      ^!If ^$IsNumber("^$Calc(1/^$GetSelection$;0)$")$ = 1 num else notnum

      Now the question is - why is it this way?

      Lotta
    • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
      ... Hi Lotta, The above fails on this example: 1,00,00.10 Well I guess we could argue that is a number (begging that question again I suppose). At best, I
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 4, 2006
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        > ln() seems to work more as expected than multiplication. If I add that it
        > seems to work correctly.
        >
        > ^!If ^$IsNumber("^$Calc(ln(^$GetSelection$)*1;0)$")$ = 1 num else notnum

        Hi Lotta,

        The above fails on this example: "1,00,00.10"
        Well I guess we could argue that is a number (begging that question
        again I suppose). At best, I would suggest that it is a mis-formed
        number. I don't know if I would have cared ... but for trying a bunch
        of things it may not have occurred to me to check such a thing.

        What happens if you divide by a letter ... is that division by zero? :-)

        By the way using this method, "1.10.10", is not a number, so I think
        that more than one period/decimal/fullstop is bad, but placement of
        commas is apparently ignored.

        In an effort to test that theory I then used this: "1,,,,,,,,,,,1".
        Good news! It is a number ;-)

        Thanks to all who contributed.

        BTW here is a post from Alan that got lost in cyberspace somewhere:


        Hi Don,

        I'm wonder if the period and the comma happen to also fit within the
        other, the corresponding (what is it, the getascii function or is it
        IsAscii function)

        (there are two functions of which that each does what the other doesn't,
        IsNumber is one of these two)

        IOW the conterpart to IsNumber

        period and comma be found in "not number" (in sentences) too.

        But, yes, given sufficient parsing ability/intelligence, I agree with
        you on integers versus decimals.

        I suppose in the meantime, may need to pre parse, rounding off to rid of
        period and eliminate commas if they exist.

        Alan.
      • loro
        ... Come on! That isn t a (correctly written) number any way you see it. A writing convention maybe, but would you write it like that using a calculator? We
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 4, 2006
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          Don wrote:
          >The above fails on this example: "1,00,00.10"

          Come on! That isn't a (correctly written) number any way you see it. A
          writing convention maybe, but would you write it like that using a
          calculator? We use to write "money" like this: "10:95" (where you would
          write 10.95). That doesn't work either. :-)

          Lotta
        • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
          ... I think we agree then :-) I probably didn t mean what I said or say what I meant. By fails I meant that it shows it to be a number when I would argue it
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 4, 2006
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            loro wrote:
            > Don wrote:
            >> The above fails on this example: "1,00,00.10"
            >
            > Come on! That isn't a (correctly written) number any way you see it. A
            > writing convention maybe, but would you write it like that using a
            > calculator? We use to write "money" like this: "10:95" (where you would
            > write 10.95). That doesn't work either. :-)
            >
            > Lotta
            >
            I think we agree then :-)

            I probably didn't mean what I said or say what I meant. By fails I
            meant that it shows it to be a number when I would argue it "isn't" a
            number. I would have wanted it to say "not a number" but is said "is a
            number" when I put it to the ln() test. So I would argue while better
            than without that method that the method did not work to find well
            formed numbers. We would also agree I think that 1,,,,,,1 isn't a
            number, but that method found it to be one.

            I am actually working on a European clip, so I have converted commas to
            decimals so they are in my way of thinking before I test them. There
            they say 10,95 vs my 10.95 vs your (now outdated) 10:95. I used
            strreplace to convert it to my "proper" number formula. Then I wanted
            to test it to be sure it was good.
          • loro
            ... My Notetab handles comma as well as period as decimal point. I don t know if that is programmed in Notatab or if it in some way pick the comma up from my
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 5, 2006
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              Don:
              >I am actually working on a European clip, so I have converted commas to
              >decimals so they are in my way of thinking before I test them. There
              >they say 10,95 vs my 10.95 vs your (now outdated) 10:95. I used
              >strreplace to convert it to my "proper" number formula. Then I wanted
              >to test it to be sure it was good.

              "My" Notetab handles comma as well as period as decimal point. I don't know
              if that is programmed in Notatab or if it in some way pick the comma up
              from my system. I have some other (not swedish) programs that demand that I
              use comma, just because of my locale. Very irritating. I'm now used to
              period, so I get it wrong all the time.

              But I meant numbers like this one: 1,00,00.10. As I see it there are two
              too many, either you use comma or period. ;-)

              It's odd though. I also feel that what's not numeric should be alpha. And
              did we figure out why letters, mathematically, are zero? ;-o)

              Lotta
            • Larry Hamilton
              ... Lotta, The IsNumber function is a True/False test. Either the selected information is a number or it is not. The Clip Help indicates that it returns 1 for
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 8, 2006
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                loro wrote:
                > It's odd though. I also feel that what's not numeric should be alpha. And
                > did we figure out why letters, mathematically, are zero? ;-o)
                >
                > Lotta
                Lotta,

                The IsNumber function is a True/False test. Either the selected
                information is a number or it is not. The Clip Help indicates that it
                returns 1 for a number and 0 if it is not. It must assume decimal
                numbers, there is no option to consider Hexadecimal. But octal and
                binary values that have the same characters to represent decimal numbers
                would evaluate to numbers, if there is no character as part of the
                number indicating something other than decimal.

                I have not tested region-specific delimiters for thousands and decimals,
                but it should rely on the regional settings to determine if certain
                values are numbers or not. If it does not fit the pattern for thousands
                and decimals, then it must be a problem with the infamous input control.

                Larry Hamilton
                Kairos Computer Solutions
                http://www.kairoscomputers.com/
                Sales Affiliate for Grisoft Anti-Virus
              • Don - htmlfixit.com
                ... Hi Larry, Of the things we tested only the following were numbers (according to isnumber): a. an integer b. any single letter of the alphabet (I consider
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 8, 2006
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                  Larry Hamilton wrote:
                  > loro wrote:
                  >
                  >>It's odd though. I also feel that what's not numeric should be alpha. And
                  >>did we figure out why letters, mathematically, are zero? ;-o)
                  >>
                  >>Lotta
                  >
                  > Lotta,
                  >
                  > The IsNumber function is a True/False test. Either the selected
                  > information is a number or it is not. The Clip Help indicates that it
                  > returns 1 for a number and 0 if it is not. It must assume decimal
                  > numbers, there is no option to consider Hexadecimal. But octal and

                  Hi Larry,

                  Of the things we tested only the following were numbers (according to
                  isnumber):
                  a. an integer
                  b. any single letter of the alphabet (I consider this to be a bug)

                  The following were not numbers:
                  a. any decimal number
                  b. any mixed characters other than a single alphabetic character
                  c. any number with commas in it for example 1,000

                  So isnumber isn't isnumber, it is isinteger (with an odd twist of single
                  alphabetic characters tossed in).

                  Hopefully this can be fixed in version 4.96.
                • loro
                  ... Except if it s a single letter! :-) ... It works, as I can use both period and comma. The problem is that a single alphabetic character returns true when
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 8, 2006
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                    Larry Hamilton wrote:
                    >The IsNumber function is a True/False test. Either the selected
                    >information is a number or it is not.

                    Except if it's a single letter! :-)

                    >I have not tested region-specific delimiters for thousands and decimals,
                    >but it should rely on the regional settings to determine if certain
                    >values are numbers or not. If it does not fit the pattern for thousands
                    >and decimals, then it must be a problem with the infamous input control.

                    It works, as I can use both period and comma.

                    The problem is that a single alphabetic character returns true when tested
                    with $IsNumber$, as Don discovered. What more is, the letter seems to
                    evaluate to 0. Or that's what we thought yesterday. But I tried to
                    calculate with all the letters in the alphabet and it turns out this only
                    "works" with the letters a, b, c, d, e, t, x and y. The others return an
                    error, as we expected they all would ("expression could not be evaluated").
                    But it doesn't stop here. Take a look at this. Just calculate with Ctrl+E,
                    no clip needed.

                    a*2=0
                    b*2=0
                    c*2=0
                    d*2=0
                    e*2=0
                    t*2=0
                    x*2=0
                    y*2=0

                    2^a=1
                    2^b=1
                    2^c=1
                    2^d=1
                    2^e=1
                    2^t=1
                    2^x=1
                    2^y=1

                    The letters act as they were zero. But look what happens with e here...


                    a+2=2
                    b+2=2
                    c+2=2
                    d+2=2
                    e+2=0
                    t+2=2
                    x+2=2
                    y+2=2

                    a-2=-2
                    b-2=-2
                    c-2=-2
                    d-2=-2
                    e-2=0
                    t-2=-2
                    x-2=-2
                    y-2=-2


                    ??????????????
                    Lotta
                  • Don - htmlfixit.com
                    As we all know, the letter e is the most popular letter, so it demands to be treated differently during negotiations, don t you think?
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 8, 2006
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                      As we all know, the letter e is the most popular letter, so it demands
                      to be treated differently during negotiations, don't you think?

                      > The letters act as they were zero. But look what happens with e here...
                      >
                      >
                      > a+2=2
                      > b+2=2
                      > c+2=2
                      > d+2=2
                      > e+2=0
                      > t+2=2
                      > x+2=2
                      > y+2=2
                      >
                      > a-2=-2
                      > b-2=-2
                      > c-2=-2
                      > d-2=-2
                      > e-2=0
                      > t-2=-2
                      > x-2=-2
                      > y-2=-2
                    • loro
                      ... I think it s nothing less than an insult that I can t calculate with å, ä and ö, that s what I think. I ll probably write to Jody about this. I demand
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 8, 2006
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                        Don wrote:
                        >As we all know, the letter e is the most popular letter, so it demands
                        >to be treated differently during negotiations, don't you think?

                        I think it's nothing less than an insult that I can't calculate with å, ä
                        and ö, that's what I think. I'll probably write to Jody about this. I
                        demand that åäö calculation will be properly implemented in the next version!

                        Lotta - who is joking (better add that! ;-o))
                      • Larry Hamilton
                        ... I d like to buy a Q. ;-) I do not know if this behavior for IsNumber is a clip language bug or a problem with the infamous input control. I do not need
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 8, 2006
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                          Don - htmlfixit.com wrote:
                          > As we all know, the letter e is the most popular letter, so it demands
                          > to be treated differently during negotiations, don't you think?
                          I'd like to buy a Q. ;-)

                          I do not know if this behavior for IsNumber is a clip language bug or a
                          problem with the infamous input control. I do not need this function too
                          often, so personally not a big problem, but it should be fixed.

                          Larry
                        • Bill Newman
                          ... I think the problem is with the definition of IsNumber in Help. It takes an argument of Value and then refers to Value as the specified text . A
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 8, 2006
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                            Don - htmlfixit.com wrote:

                            > Larry Hamilton wrote:
                            > > loro wrote:
                            > >
                            > >>It's odd though. I also feel that what's not numeric should be
                            > alpha. And
                            > >>did we figure out why letters, mathematically, are zero? ;-o)
                            > >>
                            > >>Lotta
                            > >
                            > > Lotta,
                            > >
                            > > The IsNumber function is a True/False test. Either the selected
                            > > information is a number or it is not. The Clip Help indicates that it
                            > > returns 1 for a number and 0 if it is not. It must assume decimal
                            > > numbers, there is no option to consider Hexadecimal. But octal and
                            >
                            > Hi Larry,
                            >
                            > Of the things we tested only the following were numbers (according to
                            > isnumber):
                            > a. an integer
                            > b. any single letter of the alphabet (I consider this to be a bug)
                            >
                            > The following were not numbers:
                            > a. any decimal number
                            > b. any mixed characters other than a single alphabetic character
                            > c. any number with commas in it for example 1,000
                            >
                            > So isnumber isn't isnumber, it is isinteger (with an odd twist of single
                            > alphabetic characters tossed in).

                            I think the problem is with the definition of IsNumber in Help. It
                            takes an argument of "Value" and then refers to "Value" as the
                            "specified text". A better definition might be:

                            $IsNumber*("Str")$ *Returns 1 if Str contains only digits 0 through 9,
                            and 0 if it does not.

                            This explains what you observe. The fact that these numbers are
                            integers is just a coincidence. This definition also corresponds more
                            closely to the definition of IsAlpha.

                            It also might have avoided this whole thread. :-)

                            > Hopefully this can be fixed in version 4.96.
                            >
                            >
                            > Fookes Software: http://www.fookes.us, http://www.fookes.com
                            > Fookes Software Mailing Lists: http://www.fookes.us/maillist.htm
                          • Don - htmlfixit.com
                            ... Your definition would have indeed been better than the one provided ... but I think it is more accurate to say integers (defined as all whole numbers
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 9, 2006
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                              > I think the problem is with the definition of IsNumber in Help. It
                              > takes an argument of "Value" and then refers to "Value" as the
                              > "specified text". A better definition might be:
                              >
                              > $IsNumber*("Str")$ *Returns 1 if Str contains only digits 0 through 9,
                              > and 0 if it does not.
                              >
                              > This explains what you observe. The fact that these numbers are
                              > integers is just a coincidence. This definition also corresponds more
                              > closely to the definition of IsAlpha.
                              >
                              > It also might have avoided this whole thread. :-)

                              Your definition would have indeed been better than the one provided ...
                              but I think it is more accurate to say integers (defined as all whole
                              numbers positive AND NEGATIVE and zero:
                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integer ). Your definition forgot the
                              negative sign ... that is not a 0-9 character ... and can only appear
                              immediately preceeding the number:
                              ^!Info [C] minus 5 -- ^$IsNumber("-5")$
                              ^!Info [C] 5 minus -- ^$IsNumber("5-")$
                              ^!Info [C] 5 minus 5 -- ^$IsNumber("5-5")$

                              This tread would have still been necessary because what I needed to do
                              was test if something was a number in this format ([brackets mean
                              optional] and ... ellipses means one or more):
                              [#...][,][##]#[.][#...]

                              As isnumber didn't cover my situation ... I had to come up with a way to
                              do it.

                              Is is possible to test if something is a "number" with a regex?

                              Rules:
                              1. either one or no decimal point, but there can be any number of proper
                              characters before and after the decimal
                              2. comma's are permitted but not required, but may only be present with
                              three proper characters to the right of each comma and left of the
                              decimal (or implied decimal if it is an integer)
                              3. proper characters are 0-9, an no other characters are permitted
                              except for rule 1 (decimal point) and rule 2 (properly placed commas)

                              I wrote a clip function to do it, but if there is a regex that would do
                              it quicker ...

                              I just did this:
                              a+b+c+d+e+t+x+y=0
                              But the fact that those letters for some reason have a numeric value of
                              zero when used in calculations DOES NOT make them numbers per isnumber
                              when not used in calculations, as each of the following tests negative:
                              ^!Info [C]abcdetxy --^$IsNumber("abcdetxy")$
                              ^!Info [C]a --^$IsNumber("a")$
                              ^!Info [C]aa --^$IsNumber("aa")$
                              ^!Info [C]e --^$IsNumber("e")$

                              But when we use calc, we are all over the place ...
                              ^!Info [C]abcdetxy --^$IsNumber("^$Calc(abcdetxy)$")$
                              ^!Info [C]a --^$IsNumber("^$Calc(a)$")$
                              ^!Info [C]aa --^$IsNumber("^$Calc(aa)$")$
                              ^!Info [C]a*a --^$IsNumber("^$Calc(a*a)$")$
                              ^!Info [C]e --^$IsNumber("^$Calc(e)$")$

                              Anyway, I am enjoying the tread and hope deep in my heart that this bug
                              just might be the catalyst to get Eric coding either an update or better
                              yet, a version 5. As I said a few months back though, I am not sure a
                              version 5 is really going to happen and nobody has told me I am wrong by
                              giving me any milestones, targets or goals. I'd settle for 4.96 with
                              this bug fixed and isnumber better defined in help ;-)
                            • Hugo Paulissen
                              Don, You could try this... It fetches 4.96 as well as 5.0. And: 123,4234,976.345 4234,976.345 234,976.345 4234976.345 4234976345 1 ( d+,)* d+( .)* d* Hugo
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 9, 2006
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                                Don,

                                You could try this...

                                It fetches 4.96 as well as 5.0.

                                And:
                                123,4234,976.345
                                4234,976.345
                                234,976.345
                                4234976.345
                                4234976345
                                1

                                (\d+,)*\d+(\.)*\d*

                                Hugo
                              • Jody
                                Hi Lotta and All, ... LOL! Actually, I have been trying to follow this thread, but my time is limited. I have sent posts to me to file it as a bug. I m sure
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 9, 2006
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                                  Hi Lotta and All,

                                  >Don wrote:
                                  >> As we all know, the letter e is the most popular letter, so it
                                  >> demands to be treated differently during negotiations, don't
                                  >> you think?
                                  >
                                  >I think it's nothing less than an insult that I can't calculate
                                  >with å, ä and ö, that's what I think. I'll probably write to Jody
                                  >about this. I demand that åäö calculation will be properly
                                  >implemented in the next version!

                                  LOL! Actually, I have been trying to follow this thread, but my
                                  time is limited. I have sent posts to me to file it as a bug. I'm
                                  sure Eric will take it into consideration in the infamous
                                  4.96/5.0/6.0 release. I'll push to get the extended characters
                                  added along with giving "e" preference Don, but only after "E". :)

                                  >Lotta - who is joking (better add that! ;-o))


                                  Happy Topics,
                                  Jody

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                                • Charles M. Raine
                                  Hi Don: ... Not quite correct Don as not all of your Calc statements are valid. Try the following to see what I mean. ^!Info [C]abcdetxy --
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 9, 2006
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                                    Hi Don:

                                    On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 08:46:18 -0500, Don - htmlfixit.com wrote:
                                    > But when we use calc, we are all over the place ...
                                    > ^!Info [C]abcdetxy -- ^$IsNumber("^$Calc(abcdetxy)$")$
                                    > ^!Info [C]a -- ^$IsNumber("^$Calc(a)$")$
                                    > ^!Info [C]aa -- ^$IsNumber("^$Calc(aa)$")$
                                    > ^!Info [C]a*a -- ^$IsNumber("^$Calc(a*a)$")$
                                    > ^!Info [C]e -- ^$IsNumber("^$Calc(e)$")$

                                    Not quite correct Don as not all of your Calc statements are valid. Try the

                                    following to see what I mean.

                                    ^!Info [C]abcdetxy -- ^$IsNumber("^$Calc(abcdetxy+0)$")$ --
                                    ^$Calc(abcdetxy+0)$
                                    ^!Info [C]a -- ^$IsNumber("^$Calc(a+0)$")$ -- ^$Calc(a+0)$
                                    ^!Info [C]aa -- ^$IsNumber("^$Calc(a+a)$")$ -- ^$Calc(a+a)$
                                    ^!Info [C]a*a -- ^$IsNumber("^$Calc(a*a)$")$ -- ^$Calc(a*a)$
                                    ^!Info [C]e -- ^$IsNumber("^$Calc(e+0)$")$ -- ^$Calc(e+0)$

                                    Charlie
                                    Charles M. Raine,
                                    Winnipeg. MB R3P 0W3
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