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Re: [NTO] Kitchen English - or metallurgy

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  • Axel Berger
    ... I d say yes. I too am not familiar with the English terms here, I did my matarials science in German, but from what I could find, black iron ought to be
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 29, 2011
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      loro wrote:
      > Are black iron and mild steel the same thing, some
      > kind of carbon steel?

      I'd say yes. I too am not familiar with the English terms here, I did my
      matarials science in German, but from what I could find, black iron
      ought to be another term for wrought iron, which should be much more
      corrosion resistant than cheap mild steel.
      Alas, since the advent of blast furnaces you'll only find true wrought
      iron in archaeological digs. The terms are not logical for historical
      reasons. Before furnaces reached the melting temperature, their raw
      product from ore was nearly pure iron with slag inclusions to be
      hammered out and you had to do a lot of heating in the coal fire to get
      some carbon in.
      Nowadays "iron" refers to the eutectic (lowest melting point) liquid raw
      product from the furnace, an alloy of more than three percent carbon in
      iron, from which cast iron products used to be made. Brittle, not very
      strong, but rust resistant and good wear characteristics.
      From that you make steel by expelling the carbon. Mild steel is lowest
      in carbon. Easy to work, can't be hardened and rusts most easily.
      (Nearly) pure iron would nowadays be called mild steel too.
      Good pots and pans tend to be made of highly alloyed rust resistant
      steel, typically with a copper bottom soldered on outside (which will
      fall of, if you forget the empty pot on the fire). The ones in your link
      are cheap and lightweight, but I can see no disadvantage in using better
      quality from Sweden.

      Axel
    • Dave
      Hi If your going to use it for omelettes then you would a light weight pan so you can flip omelette put in contents of choice fold over half, cast iron are
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 29, 2011
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        Hi
        If your going to use it for omelettes then you would a light weight pan so
        you can flip omelette put in contents of choice fold over half, cast iron
        are usually heavy weight ,I can see little women both hands and ??
        THANKYOU DAVE M

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "loro" <tabbie@...>
        To: <ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 11:05 AM
        Subject: Re: [NTO] Kitchen English - or metallurgy


        > At 00:42 2011-01-30, hsavage wrote:
        >>'Are black iron and mild steel the same thing'
        >>
        >>This may be the case but I suspect 'black iron' may be referring to
        >>'cast iron'.
        >>
        >>Used many years in the past and you can still buy cooking hardware
        >>made of cast iron. After much use and curing with the fats and oils
        >>from what's been cooked they usually turn deep black color.
        >>
        >>It is not the same as mild steel!
        >
        > Nuh. Cast iron we have and I have a lot of it. I'll show you what I mean.
        > <http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002OSFIXU/>
        >
        > I can't buy form there though. Amazon marketplace doesn't ship
        > kitchen stuff outside U.K. :-(
        > I could buy from amazon.com where they are sold by amazon itself, but
        > the U.S. pans are more expensive (but may be better) and more
        > importantly, they aren't that nicely rounded between the bottom and
        > the side. And I risk custom fees. At amazon.com they have the
        > courtesy to call it carbon steel and that I understand. ;-)
        >
        > So, I google trying to find a British supplier that ships abroad and
        > doesn't charge an arm and a leg for it. I find pans looking very
        > similar if not identical to the one in the amazon picture. At some
        > places they say it's black iron and at some they call it mild steel.
        >
        > Lotta
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Axel Berger
        ... Alright, if that s the case then I do accept that mild steel may be preferable to higher quality. Tossing food into the air is an Anglo-saxon custom
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 29, 2011
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          Dave wrote:
          > you would a light weight pan so you can flip omelette

          Alright, if that's the case then I do accept that mild steel may be
          preferable to higher quality. Tossing food into the air is an
          Anglo-saxon custom unheard of to us stolid and slow-moving Germans.

          Axel
        • Al
          ... It says black iron. But that pic looks like a stainless steel pan, not cast iron.
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 29, 2011
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            loro wrote:
            > At 00:42 2011-01-30, hsavage wrote:
            >
            >> 'Are black iron and mild steel the same thing'
            >>
            >> This may be the case but I suspect 'black iron' may be referring to
            >> 'cast iron'.
            >>
            >> Used many years in the past and you can still buy cooking hardware
            >> made of cast iron. After much use and curing with the fats and oils
            >>
            > >from what's been cooked they usually turn deep black color.
            >
            >> It is not the same as mild steel!
            >>
            >
            > Nuh. Cast iron we have and I have a lot of it. I'll show you what I mean.
            > <http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002OSFIXU/>
            >
            It says black iron. But that pic looks like a stainless steel pan, not
            cast iron.

            http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cast-Iron-Skillet-11-5-Diam/dp/B001VGYSIC/ref=sr_1_6?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1296366434&sr=1-6

            That's a pic of cast iron. It gets darker in color with use. Thus (I
            think) the term black iron. These are *heavy* in weight pounds, ounces,
            etc.

            Cast iron (when new or unseasoned) has a grainy appearance. It is
            porous or at least somewhat so.

            <quote>*Remember* *- Every time you cook in your cast iron frying pan,
            you are actually seasoning it again by filling in the microscopic pores
            and valleys that are part of the cast iron surface. The more you cook,
            the smoother the surface becomes!</quote>

            above quote is from the bottom of the next web page

            http://whatscookingamerica.net/Information/CastIronPans.htm

            Next is what makes cast iron black rather than silver color.

            http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mats05/mats05044.htm

            A different material/metal, stainless steel. but I've not heard of a
            pan referenced as mild steel (until your mention of it).

            Perhaps this is a terminology thing from different countries (as you
            referenced American versus other countries terminology).

            --
            Alan.

            *


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • loro
            ... Exactly. I should have been more clear. I know what cast iron is and that s the only material I use for frying pans - so far. And yes, we do produce cast
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 30, 2011
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              Axel Berger wrote:
              >Dave wrote:
              > > you would a light weight pan so you can flip omelette
              >
              >Alright, if that's the case then I do accept that mild steel may be
              >preferable to higher quality. Tossing food into the air is an
              >Anglo-saxon custom unheard of to us stolid and slow-moving Germans.

              Exactly. I should have been more clear. I know what cast iron is and
              that's the only material I use for frying pans - so far. And yes, we
              do produce cast iron pans and pots here. Good ones too. I have some
              lovely ones after my grandmother, probably from the beginning of the
              last century. The only advantage of my new ones is that they have an
              isolated handle. Hope you like your Swedish pan fw. What is it?
              Skeppshult? Ronneby?

              But I've always wanted an omelette pan made of what I call carbon
              steel as I've seen used abroad. That's what I can't find in Sweden. I
              don't think they've ever been common here, which is kind of odd.
              Nowadays we have the modern coated pans of course and recently
              stainless steel has become popular, but carbon steel is unheard of.

              When I saw the movie Julie and Julia last year my old dream of an
              omelette pan awoke and since then I've been obsessed with being able
              to do this. :-D
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWmvfUKwBrg

              To summarize, I take it that in U.K. black iron and mild steel are
              the same thing, at least in the case of the pans I've looked at.
              Thanks for the help, everyone. I'll make you all omelettes once I've
              got it. Everyone good with shrimp and cheese? Axel, you bring the
              bear, I hope. Yours is superior to ours. ;-)

              Lotta
            • Axel Berger
              ... Well alright, I ll see what I can do. And for good measure I ll bring some beer too. Axel
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 30, 2011
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                loro wrote:
                > Axel, you bring the bear, I hope. Yours is superior to ours. ;-)

                Well alright, I'll see what I can do. And for good measure I'll bring
                some beer too.

                Axel
              • loro
                ... Well, as long as you don t bare with me! Could be dangerous around hot pans, that. :-D Darn, that s a mistake I usually don t make, believe it or not.
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 30, 2011
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                  Axel wrote:
                  >loro wrote:
                  > > Axel, you bring the bear, I hope. Yours is superior to ours. ;-)
                  >
                  >Well alright, I'll see what I can do. And for good measure I'll bring
                  >some beer too.

                  Well, as long as you don't bare with me! Could be dangerous around
                  hot pans, that. :-D

                  Darn, that's a mistake I usually don't make, believe it or not.

                  Lotta.
                • Axel Berger
                  ... Don t I know it. There s a fall of instead of fall off by me in this very thread. I ve done worse in official papers handed in to the university. Axel
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 30, 2011
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                    loro wrote:
                    > Darn, that's a mistake I usually don't make, believe it or not.

                    Don't I know it. There's a "fall of" instead of "fall off" by me in this
                    very thread. I've done worse in official papers handed in to the
                    university.

                    Axel
                  • loro
                    ... What s irritating with those small words, is that if native English speakers make those mistakes it s just a typo. If we do them people sometimes think we
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jan 30, 2011
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                      Axel wrote:
                      >Don't I know it. There's a "fall of" instead of "fall off" by me in this
                      >very thread. I've done worse in official papers handed in to the
                      >university.

                      What's irritating with those small words, is that if native English
                      speakers make those mistakes it's just a typo. If we do them people
                      sometimes think we don't know the difference. ESLers make typos too.

                      Well, of outside to chase me some polar beers now. :-)
                      (Both intentional!)
                      Lotta
                    • Larry Hamilton
                      ... Looks like your smell checker is broken. :-) Axel & Lotta - If I did not know you were not native English speakers, your fine use of English would have me
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jan 30, 2011
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                        On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 5:51 AM, loro <tabbie@...> wrote:

                        > Axel wrote:
                        > >Don't I know it. There's a "fall of" instead of "fall off" by me in this
                        > >very thread. I've done worse in official papers handed in to the
                        > >university.
                        >
                        > What's irritating with those small words, is that if native English
                        > speakers make those mistakes it's just a typo. If we do them people
                        > sometimes think we don't know the difference. ESLers make typos too.
                        >
                        > Well, of outside to chase me some polar beers now. :-)
                        > (Both intentional!)
                        > Lotta
                        >

                        Looks like your smell checker is broken. :-)

                        Axel & Lotta - If I did not know you were not native English speakers, your
                        fine use of English would have me fooled.

                        I know a lot of Americans whose only language is English, and they don't use
                        it very well. The written word seems to be the most difficult of all.

                        I once saw a sign at a gas station that said. "Checks will not be excepted".
                        I pointed out to the clerk that their sign meant that they take checks. She
                        looked at me like I was an idiot. Some people might pronounce them the same,
                        but "accepted" is the word they were after.

                        I try not to overdo things like that, but a sign at a business like that
                        invites comment.

                        This whole iron/steel thing is interesting. The different colloquialisms
                        between each English speaking country are interesting, and often
                        frustrating. The company I work for is based in Canada, and I have to make
                        sure I pay attention when I try to communicate with someone at corporate. I
                        say holiday and mean a date on the calendar like Memorial Day or Christmas.
                        They say holiday and mean vacation. I once wrote to the human resources
                        department for clarification about which day the office would be closed for
                        a holiday when it fell on the weekend, and they thought I was talking about
                        my vacation. I am not sure how they thought that based on the context. I
                        even referenced the policy manual.

                        ~ Larry


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Al
                        Interesting! I learned of carbon steel or milled steel cookware (I can now add it to my list of types of cookware that I know to exist). And, ditto to what
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jan 30, 2011
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                          Interesting! I learned of carbon steel or milled steel cookware (I can
                          now add it to my list of types of cookware that I know to exist).

                          And, ditto to what Larry said -- I wouldn't have known ESL (BTW I've
                          tutored both ESL'rs as well as non ESL'rs in English reading and writing
                          at the local junior college here in Sacramento, California U.S.A.)

                          http://ouichefcook.com/?p=4534
                          ---

                          http://www.circulon.com/cs/Satellite/mArticle/1162475169828/circulon/1163100357621/Page/MaterialName/Carbon%2520Steel/en_US/FullPage.htm

                          <quote>Carbon steel is often referred to as cold rolled steel or milled
                          steel.</quote>

                          two l's, "milled" like grist mill or steel mill. I've still not heard
                          of mild steel cookware, I just did a Google search on it.

                          So, it appears that "carbon steel cookware" is equivalent to "milled
                          steel cookware"

                          Also appears the carbon steel cookware develops a patina (cast iron
                          cookware does that too).

                          The next is reasons why to choose carbon steel versus cast iron ie
                          characteristics of these two different cookwares.

                          http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/297808
                        • loro
                          ... Thank you both. You are nice. ... Milled sounds like a more proper word for it. Could milled have changed into mild with time, maybe provincially? Here
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jan 30, 2011
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                            Al wrote:
                            >And, ditto to what Larry said -- I wouldn't have known ESL

                            Thank you both. You are nice.

                            >two l's, "milled" like grist mill or steel mill. I've still not heard
                            >of mild steel cookware, I just did a Google search on it.

                            Milled sounds like a more proper word for it. Could "milled" have
                            changed into "mild" with time, maybe provincially?

                            Here they use mild.
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mild_steel#Mild_and_low_carbon_steel
                            As for the omelette pans... mostly UK and Australia, however you
                            spell your omelette.
                            http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=omelette+pan+mild+steel
                            http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=omelet+pan+mild+steel


                            >The next is reasons why to choose carbon steel versus cast iron ie
                            >characteristics of these two different cookwares.
                            >
                            >http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/297808

                            I don't know if they say this there, haven't read all of it yet, but
                            I think one argument for carbon steel is that you can get the heat up
                            very quickly if you need to. The sheer weight of cast iron makes it slow.

                            Lotta
                          • bruce.somers@web.de
                            It would be a very nice gesture if someone would tell us what ESLers is intended to mean. Bruce [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 30, 2011
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                              It would be a very nice gesture if someone would tell us what "ESLers" is intended to mean.

                              Bruce

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Margaret Penfold
                              ESL=English as a second language. I enjoyed this thread ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jan 30, 2011
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                                ESL=English as a second language. I enjoyed this thread
                                On 30/01/2011 20:56, bruce.somers@... wrote:
                                >
                                > It would be a very nice gesture if someone would tell us
                                > what "ESLers" is intended to mean.
                                >
                                > Bruce
                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Al
                                ... Instead of that, I think it s the next. My guess is that mild steel is the raw material that gets milled (of which I was totally unaware that mild
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jan 30, 2011
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                                  loro wrote:
                                  > Al wrote:
                                  >
                                  > <snip>
                                  >
                                  >> two l's, "milled" like grist mill or steel mill. I've still not heard
                                  >> of mild steel cookware, I just did a Google search on it.
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  > Milled sounds like a more proper word for it. Could "milled" have
                                  > changed into "mild" with time, maybe provincially?
                                  >

                                  Instead of that, I think it's the next.

                                  My guess is that "mild steel" is the raw material that gets "milled" (of
                                  which I was totally unaware that mild steel is used in any or a certain
                                  type of cookware). "mild steel" is a term that's utilized to reference
                                  to a quality of steel with a higher level of carbon than low carbon
                                  steel. "carbon steel" would include low, mild, medium, high, and ultra
                                  high carbon content steels. (as per your link)

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mild_steel#Mild_and_low_carbon_steel


                                  Here is a definition for milled

                                  4. A common name for various machines which produce a
                                  manufactured product, or change the form of a raw material
                                  by the continuous repetition of some simple action; as, a
                                  sawmill; a stamping mill, etc.
                                  [1913 Webster]
                                  > Here they use mild.
                                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mild_steel#Mild_and_low_carbon_steel
                                  > As for the omelette pans... mostly UK and Australia, however you
                                  > spell your omelette.
                                  > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=omelette+pan+mild+steel
                                  > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=omelet+pan+mild+steel
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >> The next is reasons why to choose carbon steel versus cast iron ie
                                  >> characteristics of these two different cookwares.
                                  >>
                                  >> http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/297808
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  > I don't know if they say this there, haven't read all of it yet, but
                                  > I think one argument for carbon steel is that you can get the heat up
                                  > very quickly if you need to. The sheer weight of cast iron makes it slow.
                                  >

                                  Quicker to heat and quicker to cool (versus, yes, the sheer weight,
                                  thickness, etc. of cast iron).

                                  So, if I have it correct, carbon steel of the mild variety or mild steel
                                  gets milled, resulting in the end product cookware. I've observed that
                                  this type of cookware is referenced in multiple ways such as milled
                                  steel cookware, carbon steel cookware, and mild steel.

                                  --
                                  Alan.



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • edward
                                  http://www.buzzle.com/articles/mild-steel-properties.html The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least. ... From: Al To:
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jan 30, 2011
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                                    http://www.buzzle.com/articles/mild-steel-properties.html
                                    The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Al
                                    To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 6:14 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [NTO] Kitchen English - or metallurgy



                                    loro wrote:
                                    > Al wrote:
                                    >
                                    > <snip>
                                    >
                                    >> two l's, "milled" like grist mill or steel mill. I've still not heard
                                    >> of mild steel cookware, I just did a Google search on it.
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    > Milled sounds like a more proper word for it. Could "milled" have
                                    > changed into "mild" with time, maybe provincially?
                                    >

                                    Instead of that, I think it's the next.

                                    My guess is that "mild steel" is the raw material that gets "milled" (of
                                    which I was totally unaware that mild steel is used in any or a certain
                                    type of cookware). "mild steel" is a term that's utilized to reference
                                    to a quality of steel with a higher level of carbon than low carbon
                                    steel. "carbon steel" would include low, mild, medium, high, and ultra
                                    high carbon content steels. (as per your link)

                                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mild_steel#Mild_and_low_carbon_steel

                                    Here is a definition for milled

                                    4. A common name for various machines which produce a
                                    manufactured product, or change the form of a raw material
                                    by the continuous repetition of some simple action; as, a
                                    sawmill; a stamping mill, etc.
                                    [1913 Webster]
                                    > Here they use mild.
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mild_steel#Mild_and_low_carbon_steel
                                    > As for the omelette pans... mostly UK and Australia, however you
                                    > spell your omelette.
                                    > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=omelette+pan+mild+steel
                                    > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=omelet+pan+mild+steel
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >> The next is reasons why to choose carbon steel versus cast iron ie
                                    >> characteristics of these two different cookwares.
                                    >>
                                    >> http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/297808
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    > I don't know if they say this there, haven't read all of it yet, but
                                    > I think one argument for carbon steel is that you can get the heat up
                                    > very quickly if you need to. The sheer weight of cast iron makes it slow.
                                    >

                                    Quicker to heat and quicker to cool (versus, yes, the sheer weight,
                                    thickness, etc. of cast iron).

                                    So, if I have it correct, carbon steel of the mild variety or mild steel
                                    gets milled, resulting in the end product cookware. I've observed that
                                    this type of cookware is referenced in multiple ways such as milled
                                    steel cookware, carbon steel cookware, and mild steel.

                                    --
                                    Alan.

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • edward
                                    http://www.google.com/#q=omelet+pan&hl=en&prmd=ivns&source=univ&tbs=shop:1&tbo=u&ei=FARGTaieDoTbgQeT7-CgAg&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&sqi=2
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jan 30, 2011
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                                      http://www.google.com/#q=omelet+pan&hl=en&prmd=ivns&source=univ&tbs=shop:1&tbo=u&ei=FARGTaieDoTbgQeT7-CgAg&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CFcQrQQwAA&fp=d9008d84f286047
                                      The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Al
                                      To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 6:14 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [NTO] Kitchen English - or metallurgy



                                      loro wrote:
                                      > Al wrote:
                                      >
                                      > <snip>
                                      >
                                      >> two l's, "milled" like grist mill or steel mill. I've still not heard
                                      >> of mild steel cookware, I just did a Google search on it.
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      > Milled sounds like a more proper word for it. Could "milled" have
                                      > changed into "mild" with time, maybe provincially?
                                      >

                                      Instead of that, I think it's the next.

                                      My guess is that "mild steel" is the raw material that gets "milled" (of
                                      which I was totally unaware that mild steel is used in any or a certain
                                      type of cookware). "mild steel" is a term that's utilized to reference
                                      to a quality of steel with a higher level of carbon than low carbon
                                      steel. "carbon steel" would include low, mild, medium, high, and ultra
                                      high carbon content steels. (as per your link)

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mild_steel#Mild_and_low_carbon_steel

                                      Here is a definition for milled

                                      4. A common name for various machines which produce a
                                      manufactured product, or change the form of a raw material
                                      by the continuous repetition of some simple action; as, a
                                      sawmill; a stamping mill, etc.
                                      [1913 Webster]
                                      > Here they use mild.
                                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mild_steel#Mild_and_low_carbon_steel
                                      > As for the omelette pans... mostly UK and Australia, however you
                                      > spell your omelette.
                                      > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=omelette+pan+mild+steel
                                      > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=omelet+pan+mild+steel
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >> The next is reasons why to choose carbon steel versus cast iron ie
                                      >> characteristics of these two different cookwares.
                                      >>
                                      >> http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/297808
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      > I don't know if they say this there, haven't read all of it yet, but
                                      > I think one argument for carbon steel is that you can get the heat up
                                      > very quickly if you need to. The sheer weight of cast iron makes it slow.
                                      >

                                      Quicker to heat and quicker to cool (versus, yes, the sheer weight,
                                      thickness, etc. of cast iron).

                                      So, if I have it correct, carbon steel of the mild variety or mild steel
                                      gets milled, resulting in the end product cookware. I've observed that
                                      this type of cookware is referenced in multiple ways such as milled
                                      steel cookware, carbon steel cookware, and mild steel.

                                      --
                                      Alan.

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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