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css menu or javascript?

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  • Adrien Verlee
    [sorry to post twice] Are there people with a experience on a choice between the two? If the menu must be changed frequently, what is the best option? --
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 21, 2010
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      [sorry to post twice]

      Are there people with a experience on a choice between the two? If
      the menu must be changed frequently, what is the best option?
      --
      Adrien
    • Axel Berger
      ... If you insert the menu into all pages using server side includes, it is only one file in one place that needs to be edited. See:
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
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        Adrien Verlee wrote:
        > If the menu must be changed frequently, what is the best option?

        If you insert the menu into all pages using server side includes, it is
        only one file in one place that needs to be edited.

        See: http://axel.berger-odenthal.de/work/Sudel/Webdesign.htm

        If you use Javascript, all those who keep that turned off, and they are
        many and probably just the more sophisticated audience you want to
        reach, will see nothing. Javascript must only be used for optional
        add-ons, never for the basic functionality, at least not without
        fallback.

        Axel
      • Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV
        ... I concur with Axel. I took me a while to make the transition to using menu includes but now that I have I cannot imaging having to back track. I also use
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
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          Axel Berger wrote:

          > Adrien Verlee wrote:
          > > If the menu must be changed frequently, what is the best option?
          >
          > If you insert the menu into all pages using server side includes, it is
          > only one file in one place that needs to be edited.
          >
          > See: http://axel. berger-odenthal. de/work/Sudel/ Webdesign. htm
          > <http://axel.berger-odenthal.de/work/Sudel/Webdesign.htm>

          I concur with Axel.
          I took me a while to make the transition to using menu includes but now
          that I have I cannot imaging having to back track.

          I also use includes for footers and sometimes headers as well.

          -Mike
          www.EpicRoadTrips.us
        • Dave
          Hi just a thing ,the line below got off 61 as soon as I saw the Road to Bobo which I new was on the way to Rt 1. the bobo link does not work
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
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            Hi
            just a thing ,the line below
            " got off 61 as soon as I saw the Road to Bobo which I new was on the way to
            Rt 1."
            the "bobo link" does not work http://epicroadtrips.us/2010_ERT_winter/d11/
            thought I would let you know.
            THANKYOU DAVE M

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV" <mike@...>
            To: <ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 9:57 PM
            Subject: Re: [NTO] css menu or javascript?


            > Axel Berger wrote:
            >
            >> Adrien Verlee wrote:
            >> > If the menu must be changed frequently, what is the best option?
            >>
            >> If you insert the menu into all pages using server side includes, it is
            >> only one file in one place that needs to be edited.
            >>
            >> See: http://axel. berger-odenthal. de/work/Sudel/ Webdesign. htm
            >> <http://axel.berger-odenthal.de/work/Sudel/Webdesign.htm>
            >
            > I concur with Axel.
            > I took me a while to make the transition to using menu includes but now
            > that I have I cannot imaging having to back track.
            >
            > I also use includes for footers and sometimes headers as well.
            >
            > -Mike
            > www.EpicRoadTrips.us
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Axel Berger
            ... To be honest, on all of my pages I ve just about given up chasing those breakages except where the whole content hinges upon them. After all the generally
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
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              Dave wrote:
              > the "bobo link" does not work

              To be honest, on all of my pages I've just about given up chasing those
              breakages except where the whole content hinges upon them. After all the
              generally accepted (by everyone that counts) rule expressed in
              http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI is about as old as the web itself.
              I just hope that my visitors are knowledgeable enough to know, that it
              is not I, who's the idiot to blame here. And if they aren't, so be it.

              Axel

              (Yes I know. But I couldn't name my own site
              http://www.grumpyoldsod.com/, that name was already taken - and well
              worth a visit btw.)
            • Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV
              ... Thanks, Dave. This is a constant problem for me. That link worked just a month ago. -Mike
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
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                Dave wrote:
                > Hi
                > just a thing ,the line below
                > "got off 61 as soon as I saw the Road to Bobo which I new was on the
                > way to Rt 1."
                > the "bobo link" does not work http://epicroadtrip s.us/2010_ ERT_winter/
                > d11/ <http://epicroadtrips.us/2010_ERT_winter/d11/>
                > thought I would let you know.
                > THANKYOU DAVE M

                Thanks, Dave.
                This is a constant problem for me.
                That link worked just a month ago.

                -Mike
              • Greg Chapman
                Hi Mike, On 22 Feb 10 12:33 Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV ... Then put it in your diary to run Xenu Link Sleuth every couple of weeks! :-)
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
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                  Hi Mike,

                  On 22 Feb 10 12:33 Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV
                  <mike@...> said:
                  > This is a constant problem for me.
                  > That link worked just a month ago.

                  Then put it in your diary to run "Xenu Link Sleuth" every couple of
                  weeks! :-)

                  http://home.snafu.de/tilman/xenulink.html

                  For me it ranks along with NoteTab as an essential web developer's
                  tool!

                  Greg
                • Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV
                  ... Greg, I have tried and tried Xenu but I always get too many false negatives. See: http://epicroadtrips.us/2009/sept/ca/zenu/ Also I cannot get the URL
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
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                    Greg Chapman wrote:
                    > Hi Mike,
                    >
                    > On 22 Feb 10 12:33 Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV
                    > <mike@WildWonderfulW V.us <mailto:mike%40WildWonderfulWV.us>> said:
                    > > This is a constant problem for me.
                    > > That link worked just a month ago.
                    >
                    > Then put it in your diary to run "Xenu Link Sleuth" every couple of
                    > weeks! :-)

                    Greg, I have tried and tried Xenu but I always get too many false negatives.
                    See: http://epicroadtrips.us/2009/sept/ca/zenu/

                    Also I cannot get the URL exclusions to work either.
                    Can Zenu be set to check ONLY external liks?
                    I must be doing something wrong...
                    Thanks,
                    -Mike

                    >
                    > http://home. snafu.de/ tilman/xenulink. html
                    > <http://home.snafu.de/tilman/xenulink.html>
                    >
                    > For me it ranks along with NoteTab as an essential web developer's
                    > tool!
                    >
                    > Greg
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > avast! Antivirus <http://www.avast.com>: Inbound message clean.
                    >
                    > Virus Database (VPS): 100222-0, 02/22/2010
                    > Tested on: 2/22/2010 8:14:02 AM
                    > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.
                    >
                    >

                    --


                    Morgantown WV

                    www.EpicRoadTrips.us
                  • Adrien Verlee
                    ... Of course! Thank you. -- Adrien
                    Message 9 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
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                      Op 22-feb-10, om 09:11 heeft Axel Berger het volgende geschreven:

                      > only one file in one place that needs to be edited.


                      Of course! Thank you.
                      --
                      Adrien
                    • AL Guevara
                      CSS, of course. All free Hor Tab menu http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/qtabs/index.htm Hor Drop downs
                      Message 10 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
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                        CSS, of course.

                        All free
                        Hor Tab menu
                        http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/qtabs/index.htm

                        Hor Drop downs
                        http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/navigation/auto_hide/workpage.htm

                        Vert and Hor menu
                        http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/uberlinks/home.htm




                        Al Guevara

                        Services: Website Design, Re-design, Site Consultation, Hosting, E-mail, Domain Names
                        Seo: Site optimization, PayPerClick, Submission, Paid Inclusion


                        ----- Original message ----------------------------------------
                        From: "Adrien Verlee" <adrien.verlee@...>
                        To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                        Received: 2/22/2010 12:09:19 AM
                        Subject: [NTO] css menu or javascript?


                        >[sorry to post twice]

                        >Are there people with a experience on a choice between the two? If
                        >the menu must be changed frequently, what is the best option?
                        >--
                        >Adrien





                        >------------------------------------

                        >Yahoo! Groups Links




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Mick Housel
                        I d also agree with both Axel and Mike, includes are the only way to go. Personally, I use PHP. I get the basic layout/design done and then break out the
                        Message 11 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
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                          I'd also agree with both Axel and Mike, includes are the only way to go.
                          Personally, I use PHP. I get the basic layout/design done and then
                          "break out" the individual modules of the page into their respective
                          files. Header, menu, side info section, content section, etc. and then
                          use includes to put everything together for each individual page.
                          However, when you're talking hundreds or thousands of pages, it makes it
                          much easier to change one file and have it done. Even with the fantastic
                          search and replace disk searches available in NoteTab, that can be very
                          time consuming for both changing and then uploading files. It also can
                          save room on the server as it cuts down on the amount of code.

                          I use XAMPP to run an Apache server with PHP and MySQL on my system so
                          that I can test things in real time. It makes it quite nice to be able
                          to know how things are working before you put them on a live website.
                          Others' prefer other ways to do includes. PHP is my choice due to it's
                          flexibility and power to be able to manipulate data dynamically to serve
                          the customer/site visitor better. YMMV.

                          Mick

                          Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV wrote:
                          > Axel Berger wrote:
                          >
                          > > Adrien Verlee wrote:
                          > > > If the menu must be changed frequently, what is the best option?
                          > >
                          > > If you insert the menu into all pages using server side includes, it is
                          > > only one file in one place that needs to be edited.
                          > >
                          > > See: http://axel. berger-odenthal. de/work/Sudel/ Webdesign. htm
                          > > <http://axel.berger-odenthal.de/work/Sudel/Webdesign.htm
                          > <http://axel.berger-odenthal.de/work/Sudel/Webdesign.htm>>
                          >
                          > I concur with Axel.
                          > I took me a while to make the transition to using menu includes but now
                          > that I have I cannot imaging having to back track.
                          >
                          > I also use includes for footers and sometimes headers as well.
                        • Greg Chapman
                          Hi Mike, On 22 Feb 10 13:38 Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV ... I don t see any false negatives. It s all good info there. There was a bunch of 12029s, but that
                          Message 12 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
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                            Hi Mike,

                            On 22 Feb 10 13:38 Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV
                            <mike@...> said:
                            >
                            > Greg, I have tried and tried Xenu but I always get too many false
                            > negatives.
                            > See: http://epicroadtrips.us/2009/sept/ca/zenu/

                            I don't see any false negatives. It's all good info there.

                            There was a bunch of 12029s, but that just means it failed to connect,
                            probably you had your threading set a little low. I did about three
                            scans of your site and got hugely different results on each run. I
                            confess that is unusual, but it was all related to your site not
                            responding quickly enough. Once I increased the thread count all the
                            no connection, time out, and similar codes disappeared from the
                            report.

                            As for the rest, all the 204s on th pages lists that I looked at
                            refered to zero length JPGs. You need to look into those.

                            The two 12038s are reasonable. Have you tried clicking those links on
                            the actal pages!

                            I haven't fully investigated the 403s, but I always find that my
                            GoogleGroups links get the same result. I suspect there's some robot
                            prevention code as those site's servers.

                            Finally, you have a number of 404s, which mean true broken "Are Not
                            There's" that you need to fix!

                            > Also I cannot get the URL exclusions to work either.

                            Your wikipedia exclusion appears to be working fine. I tried the same
                            with and without and it's dfinitely working.

                            > Can Zenu be set to check ONLY external liks?

                            No. I'm tempted to say, what would be the point, but then I'm more
                            interested in making sure my internal links work. But from your point
                            of view, if the local links all work then nothing will show up in the
                            reports, leaving you with only the external links that go down to
                            worry about, so where's the problem?

                            > I must be doing something wrong...

                            Maybe you're just hoping to find less wrong with the internals of your
                            site?

                            Greg
                          • Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV
                            Hi Greg, Thanks for the detailed reply. I think I was not interpreting the results correctly. As far as my preference for only testing external links I feel
                            Message 13 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
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                              Hi Greg,
                              Thanks for the detailed reply.
                              I think I was not interpreting the results correctly.

                              As far as my preference for only testing external links I feel once I
                              put them up, they stay up.
                              The external links, which I use a lot of are out of my control and thus
                              my interesting in testing them only.

                              Increased the threads, but I still get a lot of 12029s.
                              I wonder what might be causing the 12029s. My pages seem to always load
                              - and quickly.

                              -Mike
                              ==================

                              Greg Chapman wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi Mike,
                              >
                              > On 22 Feb 10 13:38 Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV
                              > <mike@WildWonderfulW V.us <mailto:mike%40WildWonderfulWV.us>> said:
                              > >
                              > > Greg, I have tried and tried Xenu but I always get too many false
                              > > negatives.
                              > > See: http://epicroadtrip s.us/2009/ sept/ca/zenu/
                              > <http://epicroadtrips.us/2009/sept/ca/zenu/>
                              >
                              > I don't see any false negatives. It's all good info there.
                              >
                              > There was a bunch of 12029s, but that just means it failed to connect,
                              > probably you had your threading set a little low. I did about three
                              > scans of your site and got hugely different results on each run. I
                              > confess that is unusual, but it was all related to your site not
                              > responding quickly enough. Once I increased the thread count all the
                              > no connection, time out, and similar codes disappeared from the
                              > report.
                              >
                              > As for the rest, all the 204s on th pages lists that I looked at
                              > refered to zero length JPGs. You need to look into those.
                              >
                              > The two 12038s are reasonable. Have you tried clicking those links on
                              > the actal pages!
                              >
                              > I haven't fully investigated the 403s, but I always find that my
                              > GoogleGroups links get the same result. I suspect there's some robot
                              > prevention code as those site's servers.
                              >
                              > Finally, you have a number of 404s, which mean true broken "Are Not
                              > There's" that you need to fix!
                              >
                              > > Also I cannot get the URL exclusions to work either.
                              >
                              > Your wikipedia exclusion appears to be working fine. I tried the same
                              > with and without and it's dfinitely working.
                              >
                              > > Can Zenu be set to check ONLY external liks?
                              >
                              > No. I'm tempted to say, what would be the point, but then I'm more
                              > interested in making sure my internal links work. But from your point
                              > of view, if the local links all work then nothing will show up in the
                              > reports, leaving you with only the external links that go down to
                              > worry about, so where's the problem?
                              >
                              > > I must be doing something wrong...
                              >
                              > Maybe you're just hoping to find less wrong with the internals of your
                              > site?
                              >
                              > Greg
                            • Greg Chapman
                              Hi Adrien, ... I too agree. However, there s one proviso. Here in the UK, the free web space that virtually all ISPs provide does not include PHP services. If
                              Message 14 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
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                                Hi Adrien,

                                On 22 Feb 10 17:32 Mick Housel <motomania@...> said:
                                > I'd also agree with both Axel and Mike, includes are the only way to
                                > go.

                                I too agree. However, there's one proviso. Here in the UK, the free
                                web space that virtually all ISPs provide does not include PHP
                                services. If you don't have that facility, then the solution is
                                NoteTab.

                                Load every affected page and use the multiple file search and replace
                                feature to re-write the menu code across all pages requiring the
                                change. If you're bold enough, you can even do the search and replace
                                with direct disk editing!

                                I see no benefit in Javascript at all (but that's because I hate
                                drop-down menu systems, the only place where its use might be
                                excused!).

                                Greg
                              • Greg Chapman
                                Hi Mike, On 22 Feb 10 20:00 Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV ... I wonder if you are taking account of your local cache? Normally, when re-visiting a page your
                                Message 15 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
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                                  Hi Mike,

                                  On 22 Feb 10 20:00 Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV
                                  <mike@...> said:
                                  > Increased the threads, but I still get a lot of 12029s. I wonder
                                  > what might be causing the 12029s. My pages seem to always load - and
                                  > quickly.

                                  I wonder if you are taking account of your local cache?

                                  Normally, when re-visiting a page your computer grabs the page and its
                                  images from the cache on your hard disk, not the server. So, naturally
                                  it seems fast.

                                  I took a look at one of your pages at random - no idea if thats
                                  average or not. Day 1 of your San Franciso trip. The images amounted
                                  to 1.24Mb. (That's just the thumbnails, not the images to which they
                                  link) On a good dialup connection that's going to take around 8
                                  minutes to arrive (Reckon on about 10Mb and hour). Obviously, it will
                                  be faster on broadband.

                                  So, given that large number of links, over a 1800 from the page you
                                  were checking, it is going to take some time to establish a real
                                  connection with the server (it's not going to come from the cache for
                                  this purpose) and they will all stack up and wait for each other to be
                                  processed. You may well need to max out those threads and hope that
                                  traffic to your server is not too heavly stressed at the time you call
                                  for Xenu to check.

                                  Greg
                                • Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV
                                  ... Good point. Had not considered that. I will max he treads and see what happens. Thanks, -Mike ... -- Morgantown WV www.EpicRoadTrips.us
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
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                                    Greg Chapman wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi Mike,
                                    >
                                    > On 22 Feb 10 20:00 Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV
                                    > <mike@WildWonderfulW V.us <mailto:mike%40WildWonderfulWV.us>> said:
                                    > > Increased the threads, but I still get a lot of 12029s. I wonder
                                    > > what might be causing the 12029s. My pages seem to always load - and
                                    > > quickly.
                                    >
                                    > I wonder if you are taking account of your local cache?

                                    Good point. Had not considered that.

                                    I will max he treads and see what happens.
                                    Thanks,
                                    -Mike


                                    >
                                    > Normally, when re-visiting a page your computer grabs the page and its
                                    > images from the cache on your hard disk, not the server. So, naturally
                                    > it seems fast.
                                    >
                                    > I took a look at one of your pages at random - no idea if thats
                                    > average or not. Day 1 of your San Franciso trip. The images amounted
                                    > to 1.24Mb. (That's just the thumbnails, not the images to which they
                                    > link) On a good dialup connection that's going to take around 8
                                    > minutes to arrive (Reckon on about 10Mb and hour). Obviously, it will
                                    > be faster on broadband.
                                    >
                                    > So, given that large number of links, over a 1800 from the page you
                                    > were checking, it is going to take some time to establish a real
                                    > connection with the server (it's not going to come from the cache for
                                    > this purpose) and they will all stack up and wait for each other to be
                                    > processed. You may well need to max out those threads and hope that
                                    > traffic to your server is not too heavly stressed at the time you call
                                    > for Xenu to check.
                                    >
                                    > Greg
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > avast! Antivirus <http://www.avast.com>: Inbound message clean.
                                    >
                                    > Virus Database (VPS): 100222-1, 02/22/2010
                                    > Tested on: 2/22/2010 3:53:51 PM
                                    > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.
                                    >
                                    >

                                    --


                                    Morgantown WV

                                    www.EpicRoadTrips.us
                                  • john041650
                                    ... I use both rather extensively and other than some minor problems with IE8 displaying some JavaScript menus properly (which can be corrected with a meta tag
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
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                                      --- In ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com, Adrien Verlee <adrien.verlee@...> wrote:
                                      > Are there people with a experience on a choice between the two? If
                                      > the menu must be changed frequently, what is the best option?
                                      > --
                                      > Adrien
                                      >

                                      I use both rather extensively and other than some minor problems with IE8 displaying some JavaScript menus properly (which can be corrected with a meta tag that forces IE8 to render as IE7) I have never had a single report of a CSS or JavaScript menu not working as it should. I tend to lean towards JavaScript although it really depends upon the needs of each site.

                                      John
                                    • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
                                      agreed -- links should be fixed or removed if the issue is server ups/downs -- time to consider are you getting what you pay for out of your server -- I am
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
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                                        agreed -- links should be fixed or removed
                                        if the issue is server ups/downs -- time to consider are you getting
                                        what you pay for out of your server -- I am about to move most of my
                                        accounts that I provide hosting for as the server has had too many
                                        outages in the last six months. All less than an hour, most less than
                                        ten minutes, but cumulatively enough to be annoying.

                                        On 2/22/2010 8:07 AM, Greg Chapman wrote:
                                        > Hi Mike,
                                        >
                                        > On 22 Feb 10 12:33 Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV
                                        > <mike@...> said:
                                        >> This is a constant problem for me.
                                        >> That link worked just a month ago.
                                        >
                                        > Then put it in your diary to run "Xenu Link Sleuth" every couple of
                                        > weeks! :-)
                                        >
                                        > http://home.snafu.de/tilman/xenulink.html
                                        >
                                        > For me it ranks along with NoteTab as an essential web developer's
                                        > tool!
                                        >
                                        > Greg
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