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Unsophisticated Users Don't Scroll

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  • Ray Shapp
    To All, How to simplify navigation for unsophisticated users? I do web maintenance for my brother s antique automobile restoration business. The site is
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 28, 2008
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      To All,

      How to simplify navigation for unsophisticated users?

      I do web maintenance for my brother's antique automobile restoration business.
      The site is www.classiccars.ws

      My brother, Dick, reports that a significant number of the people he meets who
      have visited his website miss entire areas of it because they lack rudimentary
      browsing technique and/or have low reading comprehension. I added a huge arrow
      to the Home page pointing downward that says, "More Below", but they are
      either ignoring the arrow, or they don't speak English, or they don't know how
      to scroll. I'm reluctant to add an array of thumbnails near the top of the
      Home page that would link to various areas such as "Sales", "Parts", "Project
      Cars", "Videos", etc., but I know that some non-verbal nav aids may be
      necessary. I am even considering an animated slide show that could be
      click-able, but I'm not sure animation is possible if the user's browser lacks
      JAVA or Flash player.

      Any ideas to aid the user?

      Thanks for the help.

      Ray Shapp
    • David Smart
      Simplify. People don t scroll pages that are not obvious lists (e.g. like Google results). Get the important stuff up the top. No idea why the photograph has
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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        Simplify. People don't scroll pages that are not obvious lists (e.g. like
        Google results).

        Get the important stuff up the top. No idea why the photograph has more
        prominence than the information.

        Regards, Dave S
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Ray Shapp" <ras45@...>
        To: <ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 5:26 PM
        Subject: [NTO] Unsophisticated Users Don't Scroll


        > To All,
        >
        > How to simplify navigation for unsophisticated users?
        >
        > I do web maintenance for my brother's antique automobile restoration
        > business.
        > The site is www.classiccars.ws
        >
        > My brother, Dick, reports that a significant number of the people he meets
        > who
        > have visited his website miss entire areas of it because they lack
        > rudimentary
        > browsing technique and/or have low reading comprehension. I added a huge
        > arrow
        > to the Home page pointing downward that says, "More Below", but they are
        > either ignoring the arrow, or they don't speak English, or they don't know
        > how
        > to scroll. I'm reluctant to add an array of thumbnails near the top of the
        > Home page that would link to various areas such as "Sales", "Parts",
        > "Project
        > Cars", "Videos", etc., but I know that some non-verbal nav aids may be
        > necessary. I am even considering an animated slide show that could be
        > click-able, but I'm not sure animation is possible if the user's browser
        > lacks
        > JAVA or Flash player.
        >
        > Any ideas to aid the user?
        >
        > Thanks for the help.
        >
        > Ray Shapp
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Adrien Verlee
        ... The visitor gets a first impression that the page ends with Google . If Google is somewhere else is, a part of the problem is away. ... This is more for
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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          Op 29-dec-08, om 11:23 heeft David Smart het volgende geschreven:

          > Simplify. People don't scroll pages that are not obvious lists
          > (e.g. like
          > Google results).

          The visitor gets a first impression that the page ends with "Google".
          If Google is somewhere else is, a part of the problem is away.

          > Get the important stuff up the top. No idea why the photograph has
          > more
          > prominence than the information.


          This is more for an "about"-page I think.
          --
          adrien
        • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
          ... Ray, nice clean site. The horizontal bars for the google search section fall just so that it appears to be the page footer and nobody would dream there is
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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            Ray Shapp wrote:
            > To All,
            >
            > How to simplify navigation for unsophisticated users?
            >
            > I do web maintenance for my brother's antique automobile restoration business.
            > The site is www.classiccars.ws
            >
            > My brother, Dick, reports that a significant number of the people he meets who
            > have visited his website miss entire areas of it because they lack rudimentary
            > browsing technique and/or have low reading comprehension. I added a huge arrow
            > to the Home page pointing downward that says, "More Below", but they are
            > either ignoring the arrow, or they don't speak English, or they don't know how
            > to scroll. I'm reluctant to add an array of thumbnails near the top of the
            > Home page that would link to various areas such as "Sales", "Parts", "Project
            > Cars", "Videos", etc., but I know that some non-verbal nav aids may be
            > necessary. I am even considering an animated slide show that could be
            > click-able, but I'm not sure animation is possible if the user's browser lacks
            > JAVA or Flash player.
            >
            > Any ideas to aid the user?
            >
            > Thanks for the help.
            >
            > Ray Shapp
            >
            Ray, nice clean site. The horizontal bars for the google search section
            fall just so that it appears to be the page footer and nobody would
            dream there is more below.

            I understand the instant credibility of having Jay Leno on the front
            page. He is one of the most well known and well liked hobby car
            collectors in the world.

            I just found your site, why do I want to use google to go somewhere
            else? That should not be a dividing line in the page. If you even
            include the google search, make it a small sidebar type of thing.

            I might downsize the photo and I would get the 2003 date out of there.
            It is stale. You don't need to give a date, this isn't a news site.

            I would go to a two column layout perhaps. Find a book called
            transcending CSS, it's a good read. It talks about how to lay out
            pages. Look at how a magazine is laid out for example. You don't need
            the whole width for the picture. Downsize it a tad, move it left or
            right and move the articles to the left or right sidebar (not both!).

            See this article, it explains it clearly.

            Emulate what you like about some other site(s):
            http://usatoday.com/
            three columns with ad, then two columns
            note how small and to the side their search is

            http://www.newsvine.com/
            they want columns so bad they actually code in a fourth column -- wow
            that's a bit over the top to me

            http://www.nypost.com/
            two column with main column then split - can be a bit busy however

            But I do think you would benefit from a solid two column design.

            Don
          • Axel Berger
            ... I agree. I had to scroll down a bit to get to the Google bit, and it does look a lot like the end of the page and seems superfluous. You should add a more
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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              Adrien Verlee wrote:
              > The visitor gets a first impression that the page ends
              > with "Google".

              I agree. I had to scroll down a bit to get to the Google bit, and it
              does look a lot like the end of the page and seems superfluous. You
              should add a more prominent "search this site with Google" and place
              it top right, where we have come to expect searches.

              Another thing: Your page is way too wide. I usually have my browser
              window at a bit less than 800 points wide and detest the arrogance
              of people demanding my whole screen for themselves - I'm not their
              employee, rather the other way round in most cases. (Although
              admittedly full screen is what totally inexperienced computers
              non-users usually have, but see below.)

              Even more imprtantly it makes the lines much too long. A line in
              print should not have more than about 65 characters, (up to eighty
              for professional readers). For screen even 65 is considered too many
              and most useability studies point to something like 45 characters.
              In my own site I have found a max-width: 32em; (up to 38em, rarely
              42) to work well.

              Axel
            • Jeff Scism
              Considerations: One point is right and left scrolling. I usually set my width = 95% so that scrolling left and right is avoided. It is really bad if the
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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                Considerations:

                One point is right and left scrolling. I usually set my "width = 95%" so
                that scrolling left and right is avoided. It is really bad if the
                website needs to be scrolled left/right/ and down.

                One rule is to set it up in text columns like a newspaper if necessary
                (readers are used to short right and left visual scanning).

                Photos and images should be "beside" text, not above/below it. Or have
                the text start first, and wrap around the images.

                Just as in photography the website should lead the visual experience
                to the parts that are important.

                Paragraphs should be at least two sentences long, but shorter than
                eight. The subject should be covered in the first sentence, and
                summarized in the end of the paragraph, or lead to the next
                paragraph/subject.

                Spelling is IMPORTANT. If a website contains a lot of typos, then
                readers will assume the content has errors as well, and lose interest.
                Sloppy website standards detract from readability.

                Photographs should stick to the "no more than 600 pixels wide" rule. and
                should have a 3:4 or 4:3 ratio. Banner photos should have a 1:4 to a
                1:6 ratio.

                Back ground images should be made subdued, tiled, so that obvious lines
                do not appear between sections, and music if used must be optionally
                able to be turned off.

                Although aesthetics are important, the content of the site should have
                priority - the reason of the site should be to present the message, not
                the background and other bells and whistles.

                Information (communication of...) and in some cases sales, should be
                the focus. Thus ability to search within the page is important, it
                should be near the top, and discrete within the design.

                Jeff
              • sisterscape
                Ditto. Content should always have more prominence than ego. ;) That is if he wants to sell cars! Google at the page fold is also a killer. Additional text
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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                  Ditto. Content should always have more prominence than ego. ;) That is if he wants to sell cars!

                  Google at the page 'fold' is also a killer.

                  Additional text navigation at the top for the categories detailed at the bottom would also help.

                  --- On Mon, 12/29/08, David Smart <smartware.consulting@...> wrote:

                  > From: David Smart <smartware.consulting@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [NTO] Unsophisticated Users Don't Scroll
                  > To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 4:23 AM
                  > Simplify. People don't scroll pages that are not
                  > obvious lists (e.g. like
                  > Google results).
                  >
                  > Get the important stuff up the top. No idea why the
                  > photograph has more
                  > prominence than the information.
                  >
                  > Regards, Dave S
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Ray Shapp" <ras45@...>
                  > To: <ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 5:26 PM
                  > Subject: [NTO] Unsophisticated Users Don't Scroll
                  >
                  >
                  > > To All,
                  > >
                  > > How to simplify navigation for unsophisticated users?
                  > >
                  > > I do web maintenance for my brother's antique
                  > automobile restoration
                  > > business.
                  > > The site is www.classiccars.ws
                  > >
                  > > My brother, Dick, reports that a significant number of
                  > the people he meets
                  > > who
                  > > have visited his website miss entire areas of it
                  > because they lack
                  > > rudimentary
                  > > browsing technique and/or have low reading
                  > comprehension. I added a huge
                  > > arrow
                  > > to the Home page pointing downward that says,
                  > "More Below", but they are
                  > > either ignoring the arrow, or they don't speak
                  > English, or they don't know
                  > > how
                  > > to scroll. I'm reluctant to add an array of
                  > thumbnails near the top of the
                  > > Home page that would link to various areas such as
                  > "Sales", "Parts",
                  > > "Project
                  > > Cars", "Videos", etc., but I know that
                  > some non-verbal nav aids may be
                  > > necessary. I am even considering an animated slide
                  > show that could be
                  > > click-able, but I'm not sure animation is possible
                  > if the user's browser
                  > > lacks
                  > > JAVA or Flash player.
                  > >
                  > > Any ideas to aid the user?
                  > >
                  > > Thanks for the help.
                  > >
                  > > Ray Shapp
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Axel Berger
                  ... Are there any on Ray s site? If so I wholeheartedly agree, but both are turned of in my browsers anyway, so I wouldn t notice. Which leads to another rule:
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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                    Jeff Scism wrote:
                    > Back ground images should be made subdued, tiled, so that obvious
                    > lines do not appear between sections, and music if used must be
                    > optionally able to be turned off.

                    Are there any on Ray's site? If so I wholeheartedly agree, but both are
                    turned of in my browsers anyway, so I wouldn't notice. Which leads to
                    another rule: Never hide important content in background images, neither
                    I nor anyone disabled will ever see it.

                    Axel
                  • Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV
                    ... I often have friends and family ask me about how I design my site(s). I tell them I don t - anymore. I use the same basic layouts for all my pages and hope
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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                      Jeff Scism wrote:
                      > Although aesthetics are important, the content of the site should have
                      > priority - the reason of the site should be to present the message, not
                      > the background and other bells and whistles.
                      >
                      > Information (communication of...) and in some cases sales, should be
                      > the focus. Thus ability to search within the page is important, it
                      > should be near the top, and discrete within the design.

                      I often have friends and family ask me about how I design my site(s).
                      I tell them I don't - anymore. I use the same basic layouts for all my
                      pages and hope the content distinguishes the page.
                      See:
                      http://epicroadtrips.us/2007/summer/california/index.php
                      http://epicroadtrips.us/2006/spring/index.html
                      http://epicroadtrips.us/2006/spring/Southern_New_Jersey/Belleplane_State_Forest/index.html

                      As has been said elsewhere many times, usability and content are what
                      make or break any page.

                      And, I will be the first to admit I have relied heavily on lists such as
                      NoteTab, CSSDiscuss and Webdesign-l for technical help and
                      design/usability ideas. Without the help of the folks my pages would
                      still be a mess. (Some still are:
                      http://mbreiding.us/ert/Tennessee/nashville/Nville_Fri_21st_Jan/ )
                      It is great to have so many people to bounce ideas off of!

                      sisterscape wrote:
                      > Additional text navigation at the top for the categories detailed at the
                      > bottom would also help.

                      Because of the long scrolls on some of my pages I recently added bottom
                      navigation. Also, the use of "Back to TOP" links can help users
                      backtrack more easily.

                      -Mike
                    • sisterscape
                      ... Links at the bottom will be useless unless they know how to scroll to get there! All important navigation needs to be above the page fold.
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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                        --- On Mon, 12/29/08, Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV <mike@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Because of the long scrolls on some of my pages I recently
                        > added bottom
                        > navigation. Also, the use of "Back to TOP" links
                        > can help users
                        > backtrack more easily.
                        >
                        > -Mike
                        >

                        Links at the bottom will be useless unless they know how to scroll to get there! All important navigation needs to be above the page fold.
                      • Axel Berger
                        ... When using a two or three column design you can make the navigation list fixed. I do this on http://fdp-odenthal.de. It needs to be placed in a script (so
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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                          Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV wrote:
                          > Because of the long scrolls on some of my pages I recently
                          > added bottom navigation. Also, the use of "Back to TOP" links
                          > can help users backtrack more easily.

                          When using a two or three column design you can make the navigation
                          list fixed. I do this on http://fdp-odenthal.de It needs to be
                          placed in a script (so not avaliable to people with scripts off) and
                          you have to check to things first:
                          a) The window needs to be wide enough to avoid horizontal scrolling
                          as you can't scroll a fixed element to the left.
                          b) The window needs to be high enough to take all of the menu as you
                          can't scroll to get at elements below the bottom.
                          Those two requirements fulfilled you can redefine the CSS.

                          To see this in practice take a look at http://fdp-odenthal.de (The
                          technical explanation beneath Home>Impressum is in English.)

                          Axel
                        • Axel Berger
                          ... Quite so. On the other hand if there is a lot of content worth reading and you scroll down and down while doing so (not so much text at the recommended
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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                            sisterscape wrote:
                            > Links at the bottom will be useless unless they know how
                            > to scroll to get there!

                            Quite so. On the other hand if there is a lot of content worth
                            reading and you scroll down and down while doing so (not so much
                            text at the recommended line length of 45 characters), then, when
                            you have reached the bottom it is quite nice not to have to go back
                            up all the way to be able to move on.
                            (And it seems I forgot all those "back to top" links on my FDP
                            pages, time for going over all of them.)

                            Axel
                          • Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV
                            ... Cool. I like! I downloaded the test page and will have to see if I can apply this to the menus at www.EpicRoadTrips.us. Thanks, -Mike
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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                              Axel Berger wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV wrote:
                              > > Because of the long scrolls on some of my pages I recently
                              > > added bottom navigation. Also, the use of "Back to TOP" links
                              > > can help users backtrack more easily.
                              >
                              > When using a two or three column design you can make the navigation
                              > list fixed. I do this on http://fdp-odenthal .de.
                              > <http://fdp-odenthal.de >


                              Cool. I like!
                              I downloaded the test page and will have to see if I can apply this to
                              the menus at www.EpicRoadTrips.us.
                              Thanks,
                              -Mike


                              > To see this in practice take a look at http://fdp-odenthal .de
                              > <http://fdp-odenthal.de> (The
                              > technical explanation beneath Home>Impressum is in English.)
                              >
                              > Axel
                            • Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV
                              Axel Berger wrote: ... Now that size has been mentioned I am going to ask the age old question: What is the best screen res to design for? I am finding
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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                                Axel Berger wrote:

                                <TRIM>

                                > a) The window needs to be wide enough to avoid horizontal scrolling
                                > as you can't scroll a fixed element to the left.

                                Now that size has been mentioned I am going to ask the age old question:
                                What is the best screen res to design for?

                                I am finding the 800x600 rather confining for my photo pages and I am
                                about ready to go wider.

                                -Mike
                              • sisterscape
                                Flexible sites are the best. They should fit 800x600 at a minimum but also be able to expand as needed.
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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                                  Flexible sites are the best. They should fit 800x600 at a minimum but also be able to expand as needed.


                                  --- On Mon, 12/29/08, Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV <mike@...> wrote:

                                  > From: Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV <mike@...>
                                  > Subject: [NTO] What is the best screen res to design for?
                                  > To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 3:59 PM
                                  > Axel Berger wrote:
                                  >
                                  > <TRIM>
                                  >
                                  > > a) The window needs to be wide enough to avoid
                                  > horizontal scrolling
                                  > > as you can't scroll a fixed element to the left.
                                  >
                                  > Now that size has been mentioned I am going to ask the age
                                  > old question:
                                  > What is the best screen res to design for?
                                  >
                                  > -Mike
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • sisterscape
                                  ... Ditto for flash content which IMO should only be used for decoration. More people have flash disabled than you might imagine. Me for one!
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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                                    --- On Mon, 12/29/08, Axel Berger <Axel-Berger@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Never hide important content in background
                                    > images, neither
                                    > I nor anyone disabled will ever see it.
                                    >
                                    > Axel
                                    >

                                    Ditto for flash content which IMO should only be used for decoration. More people have flash disabled than you might imagine. Me for one!
                                  • Julie
                                    ... Me for two. Give me a nice simple webpage with no extra bells and whistles and you ve got my attention. Julie
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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                                      On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 5:34 PM, sisterscape <sisterscape@...> wrote:
                                      > --- On Mon, 12/29/08, Axel Berger <Axel-Berger@...> wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >> Never hide important content in background
                                      >> images, neither
                                      >> I nor anyone disabled will ever see it.
                                      >>
                                      >> Axel
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      > Ditto for flash content which IMO should only be used for decoration. More people have flash disabled than you might imagine. Me for one!

                                      Me for two.


                                      Give me a nice simple webpage with no extra bells and whistles and
                                      you've got my attention.


                                      Julie
                                    • Axel Berger
                                      ... Please beware that I have not updated that for some time. Especially the scripts have had recent changes, mainly to detect zooming and not just the default
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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                                        Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV wrote:
                                        > I downloaded the test page

                                        Please beware that I have not updated that for some time. Especially
                                        the scripts have had recent changes, mainly to detect zooming and
                                        not just the default font size when determining the minimum window
                                        size for the fixed menu.

                                        Axel
                                      • Axel Berger
                                        ... As I said I don t use fullscreen mode and my window usually is slightly less than 800 pixels wide. For photographs I prefer to make them between 320 and at
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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                                          Mike Breiding - Morgantown WV wrote:
                                          > I am finding the 800x600 rather confining for my photo pages

                                          As I said I don't use fullscreen mode and my window usually is
                                          slightly less than 800 pixels wide. For photographs I prefer to make
                                          them between 320 and at the most 640 pixels wide and place a bigger
                                          one behind them. For viewing a page with many images less than 400
                                          in width is usually sufficient and will load much faster.
                                          Also remember that all browsers make a bad job of rescaling (like
                                          Mozilla showing a picture too big for the window) and scrolling
                                          doesn't let you really appreciate it.

                                          At least make your non-graphic content reformat to suit the reader's
                                          choice of size.

                                          Axel
                                        • Ray Shapp
                                          Hi David, Adrien, Don, Axel, Jeff, sisterscape, and Mike Thank you all for your replies. Yes, I will move the Google search tool to top right as suggested, and
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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                                            Hi David, Adrien, Don, Axel, Jeff, sisterscape, and Mike

                                            Thank you all for your replies.

                                            Yes, I will move the Google search tool to top right as suggested, and I'll
                                            remove the horizontal line. On my high resolution monitor, I can see lots more
                                            of the display below the Google tool, but other users probably don't see it.

                                            The photo of Jay Leno is quite prominent not only because he has roots in
                                            Massachusetts near my brother's restoration business, but Leno and my brother,
                                            Dick, both acquired antique Duesenbergs at about the same time. My brother's
                                            Deusenberg is one of his featured restorations. Leno is in a court dispute
                                            over ownership of his "Duesey". Dick and Leno still communicate with each
                                            other about the hobby occasionally. Moving the picture to the left and
                                            replacing the big arrow with thumbnail links to interior content is a good
                                            idea.

                                            I have tried to avoid all left/right scrolling throughout -- even if it
                                            makes vertical scrolling necessary. But I also assume the browser will be
                                            operating at full screen width. I'm now pondering Axel's point about my
                                            assumption being arrogant. I must admit to being insensitive to screen width.
                                            I just checked the email client I'm using to write this message, and I find
                                            that it is set for 165-character width. Also, NoteTab runs on my PC all the
                                            time, and it is always expanded to full screen. I usually run my browsers at
                                            full screen too. In the case of my brother's site, most of the content is
                                            photos of cars, trucks, and motorcycles. My guess is that the majority of
                                            users would want the largest possible rendering of each photo. I also maintain
                                            a website for an astronomy club. Many of the members use older inexpensive PCs
                                            and monitors, therefore, I assume their browsers are set to 800x600. One
                                            complaint I hear occasionally is that the content renders too narrowly (on
                                            higher resolution screens). I'm pretty sure these two websites are visited by
                                            very different kinds of audiences.

                                            As Mike mentioned, 800x600 is very confining. My recent usage logs show
                                            1024x768 or higher resolutions are used by the majority. I'm still reluctant,
                                            however, to ignore the 15 percent of users still at 800x600. I think that
                                            unnecessary blank space is less of a burden than the requirement for
                                            horizontal scrolling.

                                            sisterscape said, "Additional text navigation at the top for the categories
                                            detailed at the bottom would also help". The material below the Google tool is
                                            a collection of stories that would be hard to categorize. Also, I'm worried
                                            about space on the top menu bar. Dick has just requested that I add a new link
                                            on the menu for "Motorcycles". Maybe one more for "Features" or "Stories" or
                                            "Articles" would meet the need you cite.

                                            Regarding background images and music: I don't remember ever adding any
                                            background images. The only audio on the site is embedded in the two video
                                            clips.

                                            As Mike indicated, I also benefit greatly from all the great ideas I see on
                                            discussion groups. Many thanks to you all!

                                            Ray Shapp
                                          • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
                                            If you get our htmlfixit counter http://htmlfixit.com counter you ll see who comes to your site by screen resolution. I suspect you may be correct. I still
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Dec 29, 2008
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                                              If you get our htmlfixit counter http://htmlfixit.com counter you'll see
                                              who comes to your site by screen resolution. I suspect you may be
                                              correct. I still think 800 is the right width for optimum design and
                                              you will find many big media sites at 800. I don't think pictures need
                                              to be too big ... maybe a click to enlarge, but often visitors want to
                                              see what is there first and then decide what to see bigger.
                                              > As Mike mentioned, 800x600 is very confining. My recent usage logs show
                                              > 1024x768 or higher resolutions are used by the majority. I'm still reluctant,
                                            • Axel Berger
                                              ... Yes, but that s screen, not window. You are right, very many people use full screen windows most of the time, but especially when searching the net for a
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Dec 30, 2008
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                                                Ray Shapp wrote:
                                                > My recent usage logs show 1024x768 or higher resolutions
                                                > are used by the majority.

                                                Yes, but that's screen, not window. You are right, very many people
                                                use full screen windows most of the time, but especially when
                                                searching the net for a purpose I have an editor window open too to
                                                copy and paste into and use partly overlapping windows.

                                                Axel
                                              • sisterscape
                                                ... At the top does not necessarily mean the menu bar. I was thinking more above the fold , maybe in a sidebar. However, one of the suggested categories
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Dec 30, 2008
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                                                  --- On Mon, 12/29/08, Ray Shapp <ras45@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Also, I'm worried
                                                  > about space on the top menu bar. Dick has just requested
                                                  > that I add a new link
                                                  > on the menu for "Motorcycles". Maybe one more for
                                                  > "Features" or "Stories" or
                                                  > "Articles" would meet the need you cite.
                                                  >
                                                  >

                                                  "At the top" does not necessarily mean the menu bar. I was thinking more "above the fold", maybe in a sidebar. However, one of the suggested categories would work just fine. Navigation is the single most important feature of a site IMO. It should be carefully thought out because if you ever change it, links pointing to you will be broken and it could even affect search engine rankings.
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