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Re: [NTO] Recover Serial Port

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  • Dave
    Hi I do not think there is a exit as such you are relying on the program letting go of the serial port when you exit the programA . Would you have two serial
    Message 1 of 30 , Aug 23, 2008
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      Hi
      I do not think there is a exit as such you are relying on the program
      letting go of the serial port when you exit the programA .
      Would you have two serial ports one for A and the other for B ,another
      thought is to find an I\O card and use another slot.
      THANKYOU DAVE M

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Ray Shapp" <ras45@...>
      To: <ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 5:42 AM
      Subject: [NTO] Recover Serial Port


      > To All,
      >
      > This is way off topic, but someone here may have a quick answer to my
      > question: how can I recover the use of a serial com port that was being
      > used
      > by an application on my PC when I want to switch to another application
      > that
      > needs that same com port?
      >
      > I want to control the slewing of a telescope by using a dedicated
      > stand-alone
      > PC. Sometimes I will use program A to do it, and other times I will use
      > program B to do it. Currently, the only way I know of to permit program B
      > to
      > access Com 1 after program A has been in use is to exit program A and
      > reboot.
      > I can also use Device Manager to remove Com 1, but that still requires a
      > reboot in order to regain access to Com 1.
      >
      > Can anyone tell me of a way to free up Com 1 after the first application
      > exits? I think a DOS command exists for this purpose, but I didn't find
      > it. I
      > also looked at MSCONFIG, but no joy.
      >
      > I'm using WinXP Pro SP3.
      >
      > Thanks for the help.
      >
      > Ray Shapp
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • Ray Shapp
      Hi fw7oaks and Dave, Thank you for your replies. pyserial looks like it might do the job, but I don t have Python on this PC. The problem with software not
      Message 2 of 30 , Aug 23, 2008
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        Hi fw7oaks and Dave,

        Thank you for your replies.

        pyserial looks like it might do the job, but I don't have Python on this PC.
        The problem with software not relinquishing control of Com 1 is on computers
        that are used in a remote location (where the telescope is). Several members
        of our club (including myself) control the telescope using their personal
        laptop PCs. It would be impractical to ask them all to load Python on laptop
        computers that are already straining to accommodate all the other software
        necessary to operate the observatory. It is likewise impractical to install
        additional serial ports on the laptop PCs of all members who use the
        observatory.

        BTW, to try to correct the incomplete exiting of program A, I examine Process
        Explore to delete or disable any remnant process, but none is evident.

        I'm still looking for a DOS command or some small stand-alone utility that
        will free up a specific serial port.

        Ray Shapp
      • Axel Berger
        ... Me too. I have the problem whenever the multiple switch connected to my serial port is in the wrong position for the program used. Whenever something hangs
        Message 3 of 30 , Aug 23, 2008
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          Ray Shapp wrote:
          > I'm still looking for a DOS command or some small stand-alone
          > utility that will free up a specific serial port.

          Me too. I have the problem whenever the multiple switch connected to
          my serial port is in the wrong position for the program used.
          Whenever something hangs the port stays blocked until the next reset
          and boot. It seems this is how Windows is and we'll have to live
          with it or change our OS.

          Axel
        • fw7oaks
          Have you tried a batch file with MODE ? C: MODE COM1:9600,N,8,1,P (Which sets 9600 baud, No parity, 8 Data Bits, 1 parity Bit, and XON/XOFF flow control (the
          Message 4 of 30 , Aug 23, 2008
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            Have you tried a batch file with MODE ?

            C:\> MODE COM1:9600,N,8,1,P
            (Which sets 9600 baud, No parity, 8 Data Bits, 1 parity Bit, and XON/XOFF flow control (the default))
            C:\> MODE COM1:4800,N,8,1,P
            (something other than the default)
            C:\> MODE COM1:9600,N,8,1,P
            (back to the default)
          • Axel Berger
            ... Well, I ll say this for it: It does make a difference. The second MODE hangs and prevents an ordinary shutdown, so a hard reset is needed with scanning 600
            Message 5 of 30 , Aug 23, 2008
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              fw7oaks wrote:
              > Have you tried a batch file with MODE ?

              Well, I'll say this for it: It does make a difference. The second MODE
              hangs and prevents an ordinary shutdown, so a hard reset is needed with
              scanning 600 GB of disks.

              I believe XP is better at shooting down processes, so perhaps its easier
              there, but it does not seem to help.

              Axel
            • fw7oaks
              Sorry about that Axel Perhaps one MODE would be enough to release the serial port . . . fw ... From: Axel Berger Well, I ll say this for
              Message 6 of 30 , Aug 23, 2008
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                Sorry about that Axel

                Perhaps one MODE would be enough to release the serial port . . .

                fw

                --- On Sun, 8/24/08, Axel Berger <Axel-Berger@...> wrote:
                From: Axel Berger <Axel-Berger@...>

                Well, I'll say this for it: It does make a difference. The second MODE
                hangs and prevents an ordinary shutdown, so a hard reset is needed with
                scanning 600 GB of disks.
              • Axel Berger
                ... Don t be -- this is to expected in trying things out. What I meant to say was mainly, that your solution does not work, at least not always. In this case I
                Message 7 of 30 , Aug 24, 2008
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                  fw7oaks wrote:
                  > Sorry about that Axel

                  Don't be -- this is to expected in trying things out. What I meant
                  to say was mainly, that your solution does not work, at least not
                  always. In this case I did not edevour to hang the serial port but
                  just started a Windows program taking it over and tried to batch to
                  take the port away, possibly a more difficult goal to achieve.

                  Axel
                • Dave
                  Hi Ray cmd the mode /? in msdos window in XP lets you change settings. the other thing what happens if you unplug the serial cable when finished ,does the stay
                  Message 8 of 30 , Aug 24, 2008
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                    Hi Ray
                    cmd the mode /? in msdos window in XP lets you change settings.
                    the other thing what happens if you unplug the serial cable when finished
                    ,does the stay as is or reset.
                    THANKYOU DAVE M

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Ray Shapp" <ras45@...>
                    To: <ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 5:42 AM
                    Subject: [NTO] Recover Serial Port


                    > To All,
                    >
                    > This is way off topic, but someone here may have a quick answer to my
                    > question: how can I recover the use of a serial com port that was being
                    > used
                    > by an application on my PC when I want to switch to another application
                    > that
                    > needs that same com port?
                    >
                    > I want to control the slewing of a telescope by using a dedicated
                    > stand-alone
                    > PC. Sometimes I will use program A to do it, and other times I will use
                    > program B to do it. Currently, the only way I know of to permit program B
                    > to
                    > access Com 1 after program A has been in use is to exit program A and
                    > reboot.
                    > I can also use Device Manager to remove Com 1, but that still requires a
                    > reboot in order to regain access to Com 1.
                    >
                    > Can anyone tell me of a way to free up Com 1 after the first application
                    > exits? I think a DOS command exists for this purpose, but I didn't find
                    > it. I
                    > also looked at MSCONFIG, but no joy.
                    >
                    > I'm using WinXP Pro SP3.
                    >
                    > Thanks for the help.
                    >
                    > Ray Shapp
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Ray Shapp
                    Hi Axel and fw, This approach seems to have merit. The three software applications that
                    Message 9 of 30 , Aug 24, 2008
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                      Hi Axel and fw,

                      <<Perhaps one MODE would be enough to release the serial port . . .>>

                      This approach seems to have merit. The three software applications that
                      control the telescope do each have a port configuration screen. Maybe the one
                      MODE command followed by a reconfiguration would do the trick. I'm not likely
                      to get back to the observatory until next Saturday, therefore, I may not have
                      the opportunity to test your idea, but I will do it at the first opportunity.

                      Thank you both for the help.

                      Ray Shapp
                    • Ray Shapp
                      Hi Dave,
                      Message 10 of 30 , Aug 24, 2008
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                        Hi Dave,

                        <<if you unplug the serial cable when finished ,does the stay as is or reset.

                        Thanks for your reply, however, if unplugging the cable would cause the Com
                        port to be released, the problem would not have come up.

                        Ray Shapp
                      • Dave
                        Hi You would run proga ,then run the batch file to set the serial port for progb then do the same thing for proga ,would mean two small batch file useing mode
                        Message 11 of 30 , Aug 25, 2008
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                          Hi
                          You would run proga ,then run the batch file to set the serial port for
                          progb then do the same thing for proga ,would mean two small batch file
                          useing mode but your serial ports would not be a problem ??
                          THANKYOU DAVE M


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Ray Shapp" <ras45@...>
                          To: <ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 8:59 AM
                          Subject: Re: [NTO] Recover Serial Port


                          > Hi Dave,
                          >
                          > <<if you unplug the serial cable when finished ,does the stay as is or
                          > reset.
                          >
                          > Thanks for your reply, however, if unplugging the cable would cause the
                          > Com
                          > port to be released, the problem would not have come up.
                          >
                          > Ray Shapp
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Mike Breiding
                          Greetings, I added a script for changing the text size on this page:
                          Message 12 of 30 , Aug 30, 2008
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                            Greetings,
                            I added a script for changing the text size on this page:
                            http://epicroadtrips.us/dad/journals/travel/usa/central_states_north_trip_june_2-15_1977/index.php

                            Two questions:
                            Why does the first click on the + sign decrease the text size?
                            How do I change the script so it only effects a specified target or
                            targets and not all paragraphs?
                            I tried changing the line: var p = document.getElementsByTagName('p');
                            But could not get it right.

                            Here is the script I am using:

                            <script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript">
                            function changeFontSize(inc)
                            {
                            var p = document.getElementsByTagName('p');
                            for(n=0; n<p.length; n++) {
                            if(p[n].style.fontSize) {
                            var size = parseInt(p[n].style.fontSize.replace("px", ""));
                            } else {
                            var size = 12;
                            }
                            p[n].style.fontSize = size+inc + 'px';
                            }
                            }
                            </script>
                            From:
                            http://labnol.blogspot.com/2006/12/allow-site-visitors-to-change-font.html
                          • Bob Janes
                            Hi Mike, ... The first click sets the font-size to 13px, as you previously didn t have a font-size defined (it was 100%) you were seeing the browser default
                            Message 13 of 30 , Aug 30, 2008
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                              Hi Mike,

                              > Why does the first click on the + sign decrease the text size?

                              The first click sets the font-size to 13px, as you previously didn't have a
                              font-size defined (it was 100%) you were seeing the browser default which
                              presumably was something bigger than 13px. To get round this you'll need to
                              set a default font-size of say 12px.

                              > How do I change the script so it only effects a specified target or
                              targets

                              Typically you'd select certain paragraphs in JavaScript by using either id
                              or class attributes. Add a 'class="change_me"' to those you want to change
                              and have the script work on those.

                              Best wishes

                              Bob
                            • Mike Breiding
                              ... have a ... need to ... Hi Bob, All my pages use a font size definition of 100% in the CSS. As I understand it this is preferable to setting a default size
                              Message 14 of 30 , Aug 30, 2008
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                                Bob Janes wrote:
                                > Hi Mike,
                                >> Why does the first click on the + sign decrease the text size?
                                >>
                                >
                                > The first click sets the font-size to 13px, as you previously didn't
                                have a
                                > font-size defined (it was 100%) you were seeing the browser default which
                                > presumably was something bigger than 13px. To get round this you'll
                                need to
                                > set a default font-size of say 12px.
                                >
                                Hi Bob,
                                All my pages use a font size definition of 100% in the CSS.
                                As I understand it this is preferable to setting a default size in px
                                and allows the user to the default size.
                                I think I am stating the correctly, not sure.

                                >> How do I change the script so it only effects a specified target or
                                targets
                                >>

                                >> Typically you'd select certain paragraphs in JavaScript by using
                                either id
                                >> or class attributes. Add a 'class="change_me"' to those you want to
                                change
                                >> and have the script work on those.
                                >>
                                Do you have any examples of the code needed?
                                I have no javascript experience what so ever.
                                I already have defined #div I can use for targets.
                                Thanks!
                                -Mike
                              • Bob Janes
                                Hi Mike, This version *should* keep the font size in percent and increase/decrease it by 10% on each click. The extra var line limits the changes to the div
                                Message 15 of 30 , Aug 30, 2008
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                                  Hi Mike,

                                  This version *should* keep the font size in percent and increase/decrease it
                                  by 10% on each click.

                                  The extra var line limits the changes to the div id='content'.

                                  Not tested but it should work OK - fingers crossed.

                                  Bob

                                  +++++

                                  <script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript">
                                  function changeFontSize(inc) {
                                  var d = document.getElementById('content');
                                  var p = d.getElementsByTagName('p');
                                  for ( n = 0; n < p.length; n++ ) {
                                  if ( p[n].style.fontSize ) {
                                  var size = parseInt(p[n].style.fontSize.replace("%", ""));
                                  } else {
                                  var size = 100;
                                  }
                                  p[n].style.fontSize = size+(inc*10)+'%';
                                  }
                                  }
                                  </script>

                                  +++++
                                • Axel Berger
                                  ... I m not doing an example myself here, because my Javascript is just terrible, but why don t you just change the font size of the body element? If all
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Aug 30, 2008
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                                    Bob Janes wrote:
                                    > This version *should* keep the font size in percent and
                                    > increase/decrease it by 10% on each click.

                                    I'm not doing an example myself here, because my Javascript is just
                                    terrible, but why don't you just change the font size of the body
                                    element? If all others are derived from that through ems or
                                    percentages they shall follow suit.

                                    As a purist I do not believe these funtions do any good anyway.
                                    These display decisions, font, size, colour, whathaveyou, are under
                                    the control of the browser and the reader, not the author. (Anything
                                    inside the code are to be considered suggestions.) It would be far
                                    better to remind users of the functions of their own programs. I've
                                    not yet had any "I can't change the font size on your site." yet,
                                    but you're helping to guide user's expectations in totally the wrong
                                    direction.

                                    I have two scripts for related problems. The first supplies an
                                    alternative for the missing max-width in IE<7. The object here are
                                    manageable line lengths, so the max-width is defined in ems of the
                                    user's chosen size.
                                    The second script checks whether the window is wide enough, at the
                                    chosen font size, to prevent horizontal scrolling and high enough to
                                    take the whole navigation menu. If so the latter is made fixed, so
                                    after reading down to the bottom you need not scroll up again to
                                    choose your next page.
                                    Both are part of the German site http://www.fdp-odenthal.de/ :
                                    http://www.fdp-odenthal.de/base/fix-width.js
                                    http://www.fdp-odenthal.de/base/fix-menue.js

                                    Axel
                                  • Mike Breiding
                                    ... This is selecting *only* paragraphs in the the DIV content . That is what I was looking for. But I forgot about the lists. I tried to expand on that by
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Aug 30, 2008
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                                      Bob Janes wrote:
                                      > Hi Mike,
                                      > This version *should* keep the font size in percent and increase/decrease it
                                      > by 10% on each click.
                                      >
                                      > The extra var line limits the changes to the div id='content'.
                                      >
                                      > Not tested but it should work OK - fingers crossed.
                                      > Bob
                                      > +++++
                                      >
                                      > <script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript">
                                      > function changeFontSize(inc) {
                                      > var d = document.getElementById('content');
                                      > var p = d.getElementsByTagName('p');
                                      >
                                      This is selecting *only* paragraphs in the the DIV "content".
                                      That is what I was looking for. But I forgot about the lists.
                                      I tried to expand on that by adding:

                                      var d = document.getElementById('journalbirdlist');
                                      var p = d.getElementsByTagName('ol');

                                      But it did not work. I need to add 'ul' as well.
                                      > for ( n = 0; n < p.length; n++ ) {
                                      > if ( p[n].style.fontSize ) {
                                      > var size = parseInt(p[n].style.fontSize.replace("%", ""));
                                      > } else {
                                      > var size = 100;
                                      > }
                                      > p[n].style.fontSize = size+(inc*10)+'%';
                                      >
                                      Does the last line increase/decrease it by 10% on each click?
                                      I changed (inc*10) to (inc*5) in an effort to get a smaller incremental
                                      change, but it did not work.
                                      What do I need to change that?

                                      Thanks for your help with this!
                                      It is starting to make some sence to me, but I am not a quick study.
                                      -Mike


                                      > }
                                      > }
                                      > </script>
                                      >
                                      > +++++
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Bob Janes
                                      Hi Axel. ... Broadly I agree with you though in this case Mike specifically said that he wanted to increase the size of certain elements. Best wishes Bob
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Aug 30, 2008
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                                        Hi Axel.

                                        Axel Berger <> wrote:
                                        > why don't you just change the font size of the body element?

                                        Broadly I agree with you though in this case Mike specifically said that he
                                        wanted to increase the size of certain elements.

                                        Best wishes

                                        Bob
                                      • Axel Berger
                                        ... In that case I suggest you style the font size for DIV.content in your style and then change just and only that in your script. Font sizes in elements
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Aug 30, 2008
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                                          Mike Breiding wrote:
                                          > This is selecting *only* paragraphs in the the DIV "content".
                                          > That is what I was looking for. But I forgot about the lists.

                                          In that case I suggest you style the font size for DIV.content in
                                          your style and then change just and only that in your script. Font
                                          sizes in elements inside that DIV are inherited verbatim or should
                                          be defined in units of em. They will then vary in line with all
                                          changes of the outer em-size.
                                          Just think about all the other things, perhaps added later, you
                                          might have forgotten: headings, lists, quotes ...

                                          Axel
                                        • Mike Breiding
                                          ... Good point and forward thinking. Now I need to think the same way. Thanks,Mike www.EpicRoadTrips.us/dad/
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Aug 30, 2008
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                                            Axel Berger wrote:
                                            > Mike Breiding wrote:
                                            >
                                            >> This is selecting *only* paragraphs in the the DIV "content".
                                            >> That is what I was looking for. But I forgot about the lists.
                                            >>
                                            >
                                            > In that case I suggest you style the font size for DIV.content in
                                            > your style and then change just and only that in your script. Font
                                            > sizes in elements inside that DIV are inherited verbatim or should
                                            > be defined in units of em. They will then vary in line with all
                                            > changes of the outer em-size.
                                            > Just think about all the other things, perhaps added later, you
                                            > might have forgotten: headings, lists, quotes ...

                                            Good point and forward thinking.
                                            Now I need to think the same way.

                                            Thanks,Mike
                                            www.EpicRoadTrips.us/dad/
                                          • Mike Breiding
                                            ... I removed: var p = d.getElementsByTagName( p ); Thinking the change would then apply to all of the tags in the div#content. But it broke the script. I
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Aug 30, 2008
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                                              Axel Berger wrote:
                                              > Mike Breiding wrote:
                                              >
                                              >> This is selecting *only* paragraphs in the the DIV "content".
                                              >> That is what I was looking for. But I forgot about the lists.
                                              >>
                                              >
                                              > In that case I suggest you style the font size for DIV.content in
                                              > your style and then change just and only that in your script.
                                              I removed:
                                              var p = d.getElementsByTagName('p');
                                              Thinking the change would then apply to all of the tags in the div#content.
                                              But it broke the script.

                                              I neglected to upload the page with Bob's script:
                                              http://epicroadtrips.us/dad/journals/travel/usa/central_states_north_trip_june_2-15_1977/index.php
                                              -mb

                                              Altered script:
                                              <script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript">
                                              function changeFontSize(inc) {
                                              var d = document.getElementById('content');
                                              for ( n = 0; n < p.length; n++ ) {
                                              if ( p[n].style.fontSize ) {
                                              var size = parseInt(p[n].style.fontSize.replace("%", ""));
                                              } else {
                                              var size = 100;
                                              }
                                              p[n].style.fontSize = size+(inc*10)+'%';
                                              }
                                              }
                                              </script>
                                            • loro
                                              ... So what s the point of a text resizer? Every browser has that feature built in. You don t use a fixed font size so IE s inability to resize text set in
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Aug 30, 2008
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                                                Mike Breiding wrote:
                                                >All my pages use a font size definition of 100% in the CSS.

                                                So what's the point of a text resizer? Every browser has that feature
                                                built in. You don't use a fixed font size so IE's inability to resize
                                                text set in points or pixels doesn't come into play.

                                                The font resizer widget mania stems from "designer sites" not wanting
                                                to give up on their beloved miniscule pixel sized Verdana and at the
                                                same time pay lip service to accessibility. You have no need for it.
                                                Your text is already accessible. K.I.S.S. ;-)

                                                Lotta
                                              • Axel Berger
                                                ... Exactly. This places us in a bit of a quandry as conscientious designers, I think. On the one hand a script resizer offers a service to people unaware of
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Aug 30, 2008
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                                                  loro wrote:
                                                  > You have no need for it.
                                                  > Your text is already accessible. K.I.S.S. ;-)

                                                  Exactly. This places us in a bit of a quandry as conscientious
                                                  designers, I think.
                                                  On the one hand a script resizer offers a service to people unaware of
                                                  their own browser's capabilities. It is a nice extra without making
                                                  anything difficult for those with scripting off, that's all good.
                                                  On the other hand it reinforces the wrong notion, that the designer is
                                                  the arbiter of how a page is to be viewed, and it takes people away from
                                                  learning about browsers, that's all bad.

                                                  I do not offer any sizers on principle myself, as there's no place for
                                                  them, when the web is used sensibly. But on the other hand stupid people
                                                  not knowing the first thing about their tools and not the least bit
                                                  prepared and able to learn are a huge majority. So catering for the
                                                  reader as he is and not as I want her to be, one might well go for
                                                  option number one. It's not my way, but I wouldn't call it wrong.

                                                  Axel
                                                • loro
                                                  ... I have to disagree. Doesn t a widget just confirm that they can t change the text size themselves? A link to an short instruction about how to change text
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Aug 30, 2008
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                                                    Axel Berger wrote:
                                                    >On the one hand a script resizer offers a service to people unaware of
                                                    >their own browser's capabilities

                                                    I have to disagree. Doesn't a widget just confirm that they can't
                                                    change the text size themselves? A link to an short instruction about
                                                    how to change text size in their browser is something they would
                                                    benefit from. On the other hand, it's right there on the browser menu...

                                                    Lotta
                                                  • Mike Breiding
                                                    ... What can I say - I like gadgets. -mb
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Aug 31, 2008
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                                                      loro wrote:
                                                      > Mike Breiding wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >> All my pages use a font size definition of 100% in the CSS.
                                                      >>
                                                      >
                                                      > So what's the point of a text resizer? Every browser has that feature
                                                      > built in. You don't use a fixed font size so IE's inability to resize
                                                      > text set in points or pixels doesn't come into play.

                                                      What can I say - I like gadgets.

                                                      -mb
                                                    • loro
                                                      ... Boys and their toys! :-P Lotta
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Aug 31, 2008
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                                                        Mike Breiding wrote:
                                                        >What can I say - I like gadgets.

                                                        Boys and their toys! :-P

                                                        Lotta
                                                      • Axel Berger
                                                        ... That s what I say in the next sentence. ... Many people would benefit from instruction,[1] but few are willing to take it. A case in point is the bland
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Aug 31, 2008
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                                                          loro wrote:
                                                          > Doesn't a widget just confirm that they can't change the text
                                                          > size themselves?

                                                          That's what I say in the next sentence.

                                                          > A link to an short instruction about how to change text size
                                                          > in their browser is something they would benefit from.

                                                          Many people would benefit from instruction,[1] but few are willing
                                                          to take it. A case in point is the bland look I get when asking
                                                          people, if they also put a big wad of photocopies of all the
                                                          previously exchanged letters with every new one, when writing on
                                                          paper. (I add, that for me this would actually be helpful, it takes
                                                          me ages to find older paper letters, but with mail it is just one
                                                          single keystroke.) And the next question, why they make their mails
                                                          one size smaller than I find comfortable to read, i.e. deliberately
                                                          make it uncomfortable for me (size=2, the IE default), usually
                                                          elicits the answer "I didn't write that email, that was the
                                                          computer".

                                                          So I stand by what I said: You and I will not do it, but I won't
                                                          call Mike's solution wrong.

                                                          [1] Q: How does one indent a parapgraph?
                                                          A: Press Tab once at the beginning of each line.
                                                          Q: What is Excel for?
                                                          A: It's a program for aligning text in columns
                                                          and for making squared paper.
                                                        • Mike Breiding
                                                          ... No one knows more than they want to know. Yes it would be wonderful to be so helpful and add all kinds of instructional links to my pages. But, I think
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Sep 1, 2008
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                                                            Axel Berger wrote:
                                                            > Many people would benefit from instruction,[1] but few are willing
                                                            > to take it.
                                                            No one knows more than they want to know.
                                                            Yes it would be wonderful to be so helpful and add all kinds of
                                                            instructional links to my pages.
                                                            But, I think this would be futile for 99% of the viewers.

                                                            Just two weeks ago I found out one could Ctrl +- to change the font size
                                                            in FF.
                                                            But in IE 6 this does not work.

                                                            Ctrl Mouse in IE 6 to change font size?
                                                            Try it on this page:
                                                            http://www.google.com/hws/dell-usuk-rel/afe?hl=en&channel=us&s=http://wvrts.org/
                                                            For me, only the menu tabs change size.
                                                            In FF all the text changes size.

                                                            Why not make it simpler by just adding the Jscript instead of confusing
                                                            people with something like:
                                                            "If your are using FF, change the text by Ctrl Mouse or Ctrl +-.
                                                            In IE 6.0 blah, blah
                                                            In IE 7. o blah, blah"

                                                            Ad naseum...

                                                            I know people who work with computers for a living and/or teach PC skills.
                                                            Some of the them do know even the most fundamental and important things
                                                            about software/hardware.
                                                            But who am I to decide what is fundamental and important?

                                                            No one knows more than they want to know.

                                                            -Mike
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