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Re: [NTO] Re: [NTB] PDF files

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  • Axel Berger
    ... I d say, you re wrong here. PDF is a format for distributing content. If there is my name on something I expect it to stay exactly the way I chose to write
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 19, 2007
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      Jeff Scism wrote:
      > In an age where data must not only be communicated, but manipulated,
      > this design is a built in flaw. That is why people have tried to
      > work around it.
      >
      > In my view, PDFs are a hassle. if you have to exert yourself to
      > be able to extract from them, it is more like TV than computing.

      I'd say, you're wrong here. PDF is a format for distributing content. If
      there is my name on something I expect it to stay exactly the way I
      chose to write it and noone should be able to to alter it and
      redistribute a fake.
      It is possible to copy content from the document - copy protection is
      silly and can always be circumvented - but text is copied as text, i.e.
      ASCII and graphics are copied as graphics. That is alright, but
      changing, adulterating and corrupting MY text is not.

      If I want to hand out work in progress for others to contribute to, we
      can either agree on one program to use or use any one of a number of
      open formats to do it in. This is not, what PDF is for.

      Axel
    • Sheri
      ... Actually with the full Acrobat program you can make a PDF that others can annotate using Reader. But the annotations don t alter the original, its more
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 19, 2007
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        --- In ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com, Axel Berger <Axel-Berger@...> wrote:
        >
        > Jeff Scism wrote:
        > > In an age where data must not only be communicated, but manipulated,
        > > this design is a built in flaw. That is why people have tried to
        > > work around it.
        > >
        > > In my view, PDFs are a hassle. if you have to exert yourself to
        > > be able to extract from them, it is more like TV than computing.
        >
        > I'd say, you're wrong here. PDF is a format for distributing
        > content. If there is my name on something I expect it to stay
        > exactly the way I chose to write it and noone should be able to
        > to alter it and redistribute a fake. It is possible to copy
        > content from the document - copy protection is silly and can
        > always be circumvented - but text is copied as text, i.e. ASCII
        > and graphics are copied as graphics. That is alright, but
        > changing, adulterating and corrupting MY text is not.

        > If I want to hand out work in progress for others to contribute
        > to, we can either agree on one program to use or use any one of a
        > number of open formats to do it in. This is not, what PDF is for.

        Actually with the full Acrobat program you can make a PDF that others
        can annotate using Reader. But the annotations don't alter the
        original, its more like a way of adding notes. Also, when creating a
        PDF you can protect it so the text can't be so easily copied to the
        clipboard; e.g., the text is more like graphics. An OCR program can
        still get the text, but that takes work and is not necessarily accurate.

        Regards,
        Sheri
      • Axel Berger
        ... Not in Adobe s own Acrobat reader, that s true, but I have done it often enough with third party software capable of showing PDFs. What can be viewed can
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 19, 2007
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          Sheri wrote:
          > Also, when creating a PDF you can protect it so the text can't
          > be so easily copied to the clipboard;

          Not in Adobe's own Acrobat reader, that's true, but I have done it often
          enough with third party software capable of showing PDFs. What can be
          viewed can be copied, any attempt to circumvent that basic fact is bound
          to fail - all you can do is make it more of a hassle for the less
          computer literate users.

          Axel
        • Jeff@ibssg.org
          ... Obviously Axel, it depends on the content and the reason for exchanging the document. I am a genealogy researcher, so I often move data from emailed files
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 19, 2007
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            Axel Berger wrote:
            > Jeff Scism wrote:
            >
            >> In an age where data must not only be communicated, but manipulated,
            >> this design is a built in flaw. That is why people have tried to
            >> work around it.
            >>
            >> In my view, PDFs are a hassle. if you have to exert yourself to
            >> be able to extract from them, it is more like TV than computing.
            >>
            >
            > I'd say, you're wrong here. PDF is a format for distributing content. If
            > there is my name on something I expect it to stay exactly the way I
            > chose to write it and noone should be able to to alter it and
            > redistribute a fake.
            > It is possible to copy content from the document - copy protection is
            > silly and can always be circumvented - but text is copied as text, i.e.
            > ASCII and graphics are copied as graphics. That is alright, but
            > changing, adulterating and corrupting MY text is not.
            >
            > If I want to hand out work in progress for others to contribute to, we
            > can either agree on one program to use or use any one of a number of
            > open formats to do it in. This is not, what PDF is for.
            >
            > Axel
            Obviously Axel, it depends on the content and the reason for exchanging
            the document.

            I am a genealogy researcher, so I often move data from emailed files to
            other programs for working on the data or developing a display of the data.

            I need to be able, without manually transcribing, to move the data, and
            sometimes images into another program, manual transcription introduces
            an opportunity for errors, direct transfer usually keeps it intact.

            Oft time I am sent photos in PDF documents, or photocopied book pages
            for transcribing to text, OCR programs do not like PDF. That is why I
            dislike the format.

            The ONLY nice thing about PDF is that it allows printing without hassle,
            keeping format intact.

            I recently had to manually transcribe a 330 page book (out of
            copyright) for my website. It was sent to me in PDF, and it took weeks
            of searching to find a way to extract the images so I could OCR them. By
            the time I found a program that would do it, I had manually transcribed
            over 150 pages. Yes it was a hassle, and a lot of time could have been
            saved if the ability to extract the images in JPG format was possible. I
            ended up printing out a full run of the book, manually scanning and
            OCR'ing each page.

            Another researcher (who is NOW deceased) sent me his entire research
            library on PDF, 30-40 years of his work, unfortunately he used password
            protection, and the docs will not open. He didn't include the password,
            and I didn't discover it until after he had passed away. Perhaps someday
            I will be able to crack those files.



            Jeff


            --


            Jeffery G. Scism, IBSSG
            ~~

            Blacksheep Ancestors in your Family?
            'Blacksheep Genealogy' is a registered California Sole Proprietorship.
            The International Black Sheep Society of Genealogists is a Social Organization Identified by its members using IBSSG after their signatures.

            Visit http://ibssg.org/

            For The Blacksheep website, Montgomery County, Putnam County, and Fountain County USGenWeb sites. MORE...
          • Axel Berger
            ... Quite. Everything you describe here are purposes for which PDF is particularly inappropiate. ... Not the only one. I often scan whole books and a graphics
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 19, 2007
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              "Jeff@..." wrote:
              > it depends on the content and the reason for exchanging
              > the document.

              Quite. Everything you describe here are purposes for which PDF is
              particularly inappropiate.

              > The ONLY nice thing about PDF is that it allows printing
              > without hassle

              Not the only one. I often scan whole books and a graphics program is not
              the best way to quickly skim the contents. For that I prefer PDF scaled
              (in the viewer) just big enough to be just legible, and when I've found
              the part I want I go to the raw scan and extract exactly the bit I need.

              One additional hint though:
              For OCR JPG definitely is NOT the format you want to use. For best
              results scan directly to black and white and save as a two colour (i.e.
              black and white, i.e. one bit per pixel) PNG. Just open any JPG with
              scanned text and enlarge the area around a single letter and you'll see,
              why OCRs struggle with it.

              > unfortunately he used password
              > protection, and the docs will not open.

              If you want you may send me one of those files and I'll try to break it.
              Don't expect too much though.

              Axel
            • Jeff Scism
              ... I agree completely, but the average submitter saves everything in JPG, image wise. Sometimes you have to work with what you get. JPEGs are crappy when it
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 19, 2007
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                Axel Berger wrote:
                >
                > "
                > One additional hint though:
                > For OCR JPG definitely is NOT the format you want to use. For best
                > results scan directly to black and white and save as a two colour (i.e.
                > black and white, i.e. one bit per pixel) PNG. Just open any JPG with
                > scanned text and enlarge the area around a single letter and you'll see,
                > why OCRs struggle with it.
                >








                I agree completely, but the average submitter saves everything in JPG,
                image wise. Sometimes you have to work with what you get. JPEGs are
                crappy when it comes to pixelation.

                Jeff
              • Jeff@ibssg.org
                ... I haven t tried yet, but someday I will run through some of the seemingly related keywords and see if any work. His research was quite controversial
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 19, 2007
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                  Axel Berger wrote:
                  >
                  > If you want you may send me one of those files and I'll try to break it.
                  > Don't expect too much though.
                  >
                  > Axel
                  >
                  I haven't tried yet, but someday I will run through some of the
                  'seemingly related' keywords and see if any work.

                  His research was quite controversial within the family, and he didn't
                  want the parts that were speculation released, so I have back burnered
                  the project.

                  --


                  Jeffery G. Scism, IBSSG
                  ~~

                  Blacksheep Ancestors in your Family?
                  'Blacksheep Genealogy' is a registered California Sole Proprietorship.
                  The International Black Sheep Society of Genealogists is a Social Organization Identified by its members using IBSSG after their signatures.

                  Visit http://ibssg.org/

                  For The Blacksheep website, Montgomery County, Putnam County, and Fountain County USGenWeb sites. MORE...
                • Brian Binder
                  Yep, PDF is quite handy for handing off information where others don t have the appropriate program either. This is true for Microsoft Project, as an example.
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 21, 2007
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                    Yep, PDF is quite handy for handing off information where others don't
                    have the appropriate program either. This is true for Microsoft
                    Project, as an example. I use that for making projects all the time,
                    yet 95% of my clients don't own it. With a PDF, they can view it all
                    and stay up-to-date on statuses, as necessary.

                    > Another researcher (who is NOW deceased) sent me his entire research
                    > library on PDF, 30-40 years of his work, unfortunately he used password
                    > protection, and the docs will not open. He didn't include the password,
                    > and I didn't discover it until after he had passed away. Perhaps someday
                    > I will be able to crack those files.

                    Not like I'm looking for this to be some circumvention post, but if
                    you'd like I can likely get the files unprotected for you. I say it
                    with more than a good amount of confidence. I'll offer that I've never
                    seen a PDF that I couldn't break the protection on safely. Happens to
                    plenty of my clients after they put a password on and somehow forget it.
                  • Pat Drummond
                    ... days ... from ... several ... I agree. Creating PDFs for organizations or clubs should be banned! What software can pull text out of protected PDFs? I d
                    Message 9 of 16 , Dec 23, 2007
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                      --- In ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Scism <jeff@...> wrote:
                      > One of the "features" of the portable Document format in the early
                      days
                      > of the format was advertised as "copy protection" preventing people
                      from
                      > copying from your PDF documents. Since that time there have been
                      several
                      > PDF capable programs designed by others which enable access to the
                      > contents of a PDF document.
                      >
                      > In an age where data must not only be communicated, but manipulated,
                      > this design is a built in flaw. That is why people have tried to work
                      > around it.
                      >
                      > In my view, PDFs are a hassle. if you have to exert yourself to be able
                      > to extract from them, it is more like TV than computing.

                      I agree. Creating PDFs for organizations or clubs should be banned!
                      What software can pull text out of 'protected' PDFs? I'd love to be
                      able to do that!
                    • David Smart
                      ... I m probably missing your point here, but ... PDFs are great for organisations with wide and varied membership - e.g. for clubs. It means that a formatted
                      Message 10 of 16 , Dec 23, 2007
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                        > I agree. Creating PDFs for organizations or clubs should be banned!

                        I'm probably missing your point here, but ...

                        PDFs are great for organisations with wide and varied membership - e.g. for
                        clubs. It means that a formatted document can be distributed with the
                        knowledge that everyone can see it or print it without needing to have your
                        particular brand or level of office software, or needing to buy some special
                        display software. This benefit increases when the people producing separate
                        documents for distribution are, themselves, possibly using different
                        software.

                        PDF should not be used for data storage (and I don't think it was ever
                        intended by its designers that it should). If this is your complaint,
                        then - yes I certainly agree. But not just for clubs, etc. It should never
                        be used to hold data anywhere.

                        Regards, Dave S

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Pat Drummond" <pat@...>
                        To: <ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 6:49 AM
                        Subject: [NTO] Re: [NTB] PDF files


                        > --- In ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Scism <jeff@...> wrote:
                        >> One of the "features" of the portable Document format in the early
                        > days
                        >> of the format was advertised as "copy protection" preventing people
                        > from
                        >> copying from your PDF documents. Since that time there have been
                        > several
                        >> PDF capable programs designed by others which enable access to the
                        >> contents of a PDF document.
                        >>
                        >> In an age where data must not only be communicated, but manipulated,
                        >> this design is a built in flaw. That is why people have tried to work
                        >> around it.
                        >>
                        >> In my view, PDFs are a hassle. if you have to exert yourself to be able
                        >> to extract from them, it is more like TV than computing.
                        >
                        > I agree. Creating PDFs for organizations or clubs should be banned!
                        > What software can pull text out of 'protected' PDFs? I'd love to be
                        > able to do that!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Jeff Scism
                        Basically PDF are Read Only, and therefor Acrobat (or the Adobe Programs that create PDF Docs) should not be used as a Word Processor. Simply because the
                        Message 11 of 16 , Dec 23, 2007
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                          Basically PDF are Read Only, and therefor Acrobat (or the Adobe
                          Programs that create PDF Docs) should not be used as a Word Processor.
                          Simply because the ability to edit the documents is limited.

                          This may be great for creating a printable format, or just doing
                          announcements, newsletters, etc. but for people who need to work with
                          the text, a word processing format is much better.

                          I prefer NoteTab. It does most of what i want to do. If I have to, I use
                          OpenOffice.



                          David Smart wrote:
                          >
                          > > I agree. Creating PDFs for organizations or clubs should be banned!
                          >
                          > I'm probably missing your point here, but ...
                          >
                          > PDFs are great for organisations with wide and varied membership -
                          > e.g. for
                          > clubs. It means that a formatted document can be distributed with the
                          > knowledge that everyone can see it or print it without needing to have
                          > your
                          > particular brand or level of office software, or needing to buy some
                          > special
                          > display software. This benefit increases when the people producing
                          > separate
                          > documents for distribution are, themselves, possibly using different
                          > software.
                          >
                          > PDF should not be used for data storage (and I don't think it was ever
                          > intended by its designers that it should). If this is your complaint,
                          > then - yes I certainly agree. But not just for clubs, etc. It should
                          > never
                          > be used to hold data anywhere.
                          >
                          > Regards, Dave S
                          >

                          --


                          Jeffery G. Scism, IBSSG
                          ~~

                          Blacksheep Ancestors in your Family?
                          'Blacksheep Genealogy' is a registered California Sole Proprietorship.
                          The International Black Sheep Society of Genealogists is a Social Organization Identified by its members using IBSSG after their signatures.

                          Visit http://ibssg.org/

                          For The Blacksheep website, Montgomery County, Putnam County, and Fountain County USGenWeb sites. MORE...
                        • Axel Berger
                          ... Exactly, and read-only is what the final distributed version of anything should be. If you don t set silly restrictions, that can be circumvented in any
                          Message 12 of 16 , Dec 23, 2007
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                            Jeff Scism wrote:
                            > Basically PDF are Read Only, and therefor Acrobat (or the Adobe
                            > Programs that create PDF Docs) should not be used as a Word Processor.

                            Exactly, and read-only is what the final distributed version of anything
                            should be. If you don't set silly restrictions, that can be circumvented
                            in any case, limited extraction of content is possible as graphics or
                            ASCII, but no real editing.

                            It is totally the wrong format for work in progress. That said I have
                            been asked to provide scans bound together as PDF rather than the raw
                            images and having done it I find myself much preferring that for reading
                            or scanning (or printing) pages of stuff, but I keep the raw images for
                            everything else.

                            Axel
                          • David Smart
                            Yes, I think you re saying what I m saying. It s funny, I really like NoteTab, but I don t seem to use it a fraction of what others do. The only time I ever
                            Message 13 of 16 , Dec 23, 2007
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                              Yes, I think you're saying what I'm saying.

                              It's funny, I really like NoteTab, but I don't seem to use it a fraction of
                              what others do. The only time I ever seem to have text files is when a
                              program requires them (e.g. batch file, configuration files). For almost
                              everything else I do, I seem to need formatting (e.g. Word) or data
                              manipulation (e.g. Access or Excel). Very rarely simple text files.
                              (Actually, I would use Excel at least 5:1 over Word or Access or NoteTab or
                              anything else.)

                              Regards, Dave S

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Jeff Scism" <jeff@...>
                              To: <ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 9:10 AM
                              Subject: Re: [NTO] Re: [NTB] PDF files


                              > Basically PDF are Read Only, and therefor Acrobat (or the Adobe
                              > Programs that create PDF Docs) should not be used as a Word Processor.
                              > Simply because the ability to edit the documents is limited.
                              >
                              > This may be great for creating a printable format, or just doing
                              > announcements, newsletters, etc. but for people who need to work with
                              > the text, a word processing format is much better.
                              >
                              > I prefer NoteTab. It does most of what i want to do. If I have to, I use
                              > OpenOffice.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > David Smart wrote:
                              >>
                              >> > I agree. Creating PDFs for organizations or clubs should be banned!
                              >>
                              >> I'm probably missing your point here, but ...
                              >>
                              >> PDFs are great for organisations with wide and varied membership -
                              >> e.g. for
                              >> clubs. It means that a formatted document can be distributed with the
                              >> knowledge that everyone can see it or print it without needing to have
                              >> your
                              >> particular brand or level of office software, or needing to buy some
                              >> special
                              >> display software. This benefit increases when the people producing
                              >> separate
                              >> documents for distribution are, themselves, possibly using different
                              >> software.
                              >>
                              >> PDF should not be used for data storage (and I don't think it was ever
                              >> intended by its designers that it should). If this is your complaint,
                              >> then - yes I certainly agree. But not just for clubs, etc. It should
                              >> never
                              >> be used to hold data anywhere.
                              >>
                              >> Regards, Dave S
                              >>
                              >
                              > --
                              >
                              >
                              > Jeffery G. Scism, IBSSG
                              > ~~
                              >
                              > Blacksheep Ancestors in your Family?
                              > 'Blacksheep Genealogy' is a registered California Sole Proprietorship.
                              > The International Black Sheep Society of Genealogists is a Social
                              > Organization Identified by its members using IBSSG after their
                              > signatures.
                              >
                              > Visit http://ibssg.org/
                              >
                              > For The Blacksheep website, Montgomery County, Putnam County, and Fountain
                              > County USGenWeb sites. MORE...
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
                              ... I use notetab over excel all day, every day, for data manipulation. It sorts, combines, strips, etc. etc.
                              Message 14 of 16 , Dec 23, 2007
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                                David Smart wrote:
                                > Yes, I think you're saying what I'm saying.
                                >
                                > It's funny, I really like NoteTab, but I don't seem to use it a fraction of
                                > what others do. The only time I ever seem to have text files is when a
                                > program requires them (e.g. batch file, configuration files). For almost
                                > everything else I do, I seem to need formatting (e.g. Word) or data
                                > manipulation (e.g. Access or Excel). Very rarely simple text files.
                                > (Actually, I would use Excel at least 5:1 over Word or Access or NoteTab or
                                > anything else.)
                                >
                                > Regards, Dave S
                                I use notetab over excel all day, every day, for data manipulation. It
                                sorts, combines, strips, etc. etc.
                              • buralex@gmail.com
                                Don - HtmlFixIt.com said on Dec 23, 2007 22:07 ... Dave, Don (just got back from visiting relatives over Christmas so I m a couple of
                                Message 15 of 16 , Dec 27, 2007
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                                  "Don - HtmlFixIt.com" <don@...> said on Dec 23, 2007 22:07
                                  -0500 (in part):
                                  > > (Actually, I would use Excel at least 5:1 over Word or Access or
                                  > NoteTab or
                                  > > anything else.)
                                  > >
                                  > > Regards, Dave S
                                  > I use notetab over excel all day, every day, for data manipulation. It
                                  > sorts, combines, strips, etc. etc.
                                  Dave, Don (just got back from visiting relatives over Christmas so I'm a
                                  couple of days behind)

                                  Notetab vs. Excel vs. Notetab - my frequent usage patterns is actually
                                  back-and-forth from Excel to Notetab.
                                  Copy a selection grid from Excel, paste into Notetab, manipulate with
                                  Regexp and/or clips, copy-ALL and paste back to Excel (sometimes several
                                  round trips to accomplish various sub-tasks)

                                  Very infrequently I dip into a little Basic from within Excel

                                  The two programs are (IMO) a perfect match!

                                  Regards ... Alec -- buralex-gmail
                                  --



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