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  • Ed Brown
    In the distant past there was some (much) discussion on various anti spam programs. I have been without spam for some time now, but it is coming back, I have
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 9, 2007
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      In the distant past there was some (much) discussion on various anti spam programs. I have been without spam for some time now, but it is coming back, I have had one or two several times a week. This morning I had four. I used to have a very good Bayesian spam filter. When I changed to dsl spam all but disappeared. I found the ISP was deleting some good email, so I told them to let my mail through unfiltered. Now I would like to install a good Bayesian spam filter. I have looked at spamassassin and it seems to be useful only if you use Outlook or a server. I looked over the configuration and did not make a lot of sense to me. (however, many things no longer makes sense to me) I can check the ports but I am not sure how to set up the assassin. The other one SpamBayes and it appeared to be pretty difficult to install also. Any have an easy to use Bayesian Spam filter besides those two?? Frank uses or used to use SpamAssassin which seems to require Perl to install, (i do not speak Perl) but he is much smarter than I am in any type of computer speak. So if you know of a good one that is simple to install and operate let me know. I cannot even remember the name of the one I used, but in doing a google search it's name never popped up, so may be gone.
      Ed

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • fw7oaks
      I m using POPFile, a bit of a fiddle to set up, but the instructions are clear enough if you take your time and don t rush, the more spam you get the better it
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 9, 2007
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        I'm using POPFile, a bit of a fiddle to set up, but the instructions are clear
        enough if you take your time and don't rush, the more spam you get the better
        it gets.

        http://popfile.sourceforge.net/

        HTH

        fw
      • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
        ... not ... I just use Thunderbird and it does a pretty decent job. Ask the isp if they have a challenge response system available. Those work pretty well
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 9, 2007
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          Ed Brown wrote:
          > In the distant past there was some (much) discussion on various anti spam programs. I have been without spam for some time now, but it is coming back, I have had one or two several times a week. This morning I had four. I used to have a very good Bayesian spam filter. When I changed to dsl spam all but disappeared. I found the ISP was deleting some good email, so I told them to let my mail through unfiltered. Now I would like to install a good Bayesian spam filter. I have looked at spamassassin and it seems to be useful only if you use Outlook or a server. I looked over the configuration and did not make a lot of sense to me. (however, many things no longer makes sense to me) I can check the ports but I am not sure how to set up the assassin. The other one SpamBayes and it appeared to be pretty difficult to install also. Any have an easy to use Bayesian Spam filter besides those two?? Frank uses or used to use SpamAssassin which seems to require Perl to install, (i do
          not
          > speak Perl) but he is much smarter than I am in any type of computer speak. So if you know of a good one that is simple to install and operate let me know. I cannot even remember the name of the one I used, but in doing a google search it's name never popped up, so may be gone.
          > Ed
          >

          I just use Thunderbird and it does a pretty decent job. Ask the isp if
          they have a challenge response system available. Those work pretty well
          too.
        • Ed Brown
          YES, this is my old one. I think I remember how it works. This is the best one that I have ever used and it sets itself with just a little guidance. Thank You
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 9, 2007
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            YES, this is my old one. I think I remember how it works. This is the best one that I have ever used and it sets itself with just a little guidance. Thank You
            Ed
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: fw7oaks
            To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 11:32
            Subject: Re: [NTO] spam


            I'm using POPFile, a bit of a fiddle to set up, but the instructions are clear
            enough if you take your time and don't rush, the more spam you get the better
            it gets.

            http://popfile.sourceforge.net/

            HTH

            fw





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • alice ttlg
            ... One thing to keep in mind with challenge response programs, they can cause all kinds of problems with mailing lists that you belong to - you need to be
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 9, 2007
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              On 10/9/07, Don - HtmlFixIt.com <don@...> wrote:
              >
              > I just use Thunderbird and it does a pretty decent job. Ask the isp if
              > they have a challenge response system available. Those work pretty well
              > too.

              One thing to keep in mind with challenge response programs, they can
              cause all kinds of problems with mailing lists that you belong to -
              you need to be able to do some careful whitelisting, otherwise you can
              end up sending challenges to list members and it can get you banned on
              some mailing lists.

              Also, if you contact someone via a form on their website, you may not
              know the email address that they'll reply from (so you can't really
              whitelist them) and you can end up blocking their replies to you - I
              maintain numerous websites on several domains and people who contact
              me wanting a reply and use those c/r programs never hear from me
              because I refuse to prove I'm not a spammer when they're the ones
              initiating the contact. I suggest keeping a separate address that
              doesn't use the challenge/response program for contacting people thru
              a website form (if you want a reply).

              And there's always the possibility that your c/r program may decide to
              spam everyone you know - SpamArrest did this, they figured that anyone
              sending (legit or not) mail to one of their users was somehow giving
              consent to SpamArrest to send them advertisements about the SpamArrest
              service! Obviously this didn't go over well especially since many of
              those people had no idea that someone they emailed was using
              SpamArrest (because they were already whitelisted by the SpamArrest
              user).

              Filtering your incoming mail is much less intrusive to legitimate
              senders and a much better solution than challenge/response programs,
              imho.

              --
              alice ttlg

              Vox Populli, webhosting for fans
              http://www.populli.org/
              Glenfinnan, webhosting for everything else
              http://www.glenfinnanhosting.com/
            • Axel Berger
              ... That depends on the other party. If I m posting to ask a favour of someone I ll accept that extra step. When answering a post requesting something from me
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 9, 2007
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                "Don - HtmlFixIt.com" wrote:
                > Ask the isp if they have a challenge response system available.
                > Those work pretty well too.

                That depends on the other party. If I'm posting to ask a favour of
                someone I'll accept that extra step. When answering a post requesting
                something from me I may very well not bother, in fact I'd have to be in
                an exceptionally good mood to do so.
                (In fact this and address faking is the reason I never give a full reply
                first. I only write very few words like "I can help" so I'm not too
                pissed when that mail bounces.)

                And these things seem a bit tricky. I've seen people not setting
                exceptions for list mails they're subscribed to correctly, and that of
                course makes it ridiculous.

                Axel
              • Axel Berger
                ... Well said. There may be exceptions. I know a church warden with a well known and frequently published address he can t easily change and who gets 300 spam
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 9, 2007
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                  alice ttlg wrote:
                  > Filtering your incoming mail is much less intrusive to legitimate
                  > senders and a much better solution than challenge/response programs,
                  > imho.

                  Well said. There may be exceptions. I know a church warden with a well
                  known and frequently published address he can't easily change and who
                  gets 300 spam (spams? Is spam countable?) per day.
                  In the experience of all folks here: How do elderly fuddy-duddies who
                  just master email
                  copy with those challenges?

                  Axel
                • Ed Brown
                  I guess you would say he is computer challenged? Tell him to quit think old and start studying. Everything worth while has a pretty good, some might even say
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 9, 2007
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                    I guess you would say he is computer challenged? Tell him to quit think old and start studying. Everything worth while has a pretty good, some might even say steep learning curve. You are only as old as you want to be. But evidently he likes to do something else rather than put sometime in studying. And he might need a computer Guru--like you Alex?? You know where to go to get answers. And might be able to help him a great deal. No matter the age, you do what you want to do--at least that is my opinion
                    ed
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Axel Berger
                    To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 13:36
                    Subject: [unclassified] Re: [NTO] spam


                    alice ttlg wrote:
                    > Filtering your incoming mail is much less intrusive to legitimate
                    > senders and a much better solution than challenge/response programs,
                    > imho.

                    Well said. There may be exceptions. I know a church warden with a well
                    known and frequently published address he can't easily change and who
                    gets 300 spam (spams? Is spam countable?) per day.
                    In the experience of all folks here: How do elderly fuddy-duddies who
                    just master email
                    copy with those challenges?

                    Axel




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ed Brown
                    It is taking some time to get my acct setup so I will ask you how to removed the [unclassified] in the subject line? You do not have [unclassified] in your
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 9, 2007
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                      It is taking some time to get my acct setup so I will ask you how to removed the [unclassified] in the subject line? You do not have [unclassified] in your subject line. How did you get rid of it. I was having the same problem, everytime I replied my subject line looked like this:
                      Re: [unclassified] Re: [NTO] spam

                      and with the [unclassified] in the subject line it was causing problems in archiving the messages and I had to delete each time I replied which was one reason that I dropped Popfile.

                      Ed

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: fw7oaks
                      To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 11:32
                      Subject: [unclassified] Re: [NTO] spam


                      I'm using POPFile, a bit of a fiddle to set up, but the instructions are clear
                      enough if you take your time and don't rush, the more spam you get the better
                      it gets.

                      http://popfile.sourceforge.net/

                      HTH

                      fw





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ed Brown
                      Now that I figured that out, it still puts the name of the bucket in brackets in front of the Re:[NTO]spam subject line is Re [adobe_ps] program halts. I do
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 9, 2007
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                        Now that I figured that out, it still puts the name of the bucket in brackets in front of the Re:[NTO]spam
                        subject line is "Re [adobe_ps] program halts." I do not want it to place the name of the bucket in the subject line and I see yours does not do that. How do you get rid of it. When I replied to your message in the subject I saw this: [notetab] Re [NTO] spam and in order to not mess up the archiving of the messages that must not be there. I see it is placed there as soon as a new email arrives and when I reply naturally it is in the subject line also.
                        Scratching head.
                        Ed


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: fw7oaks
                        To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 11:32
                        Subject: Re: [NTO] spam


                        I'm using POPFile, a bit of a fiddle to set up, but the instructions are clear
                        enough if you take your time and don't rush, the more spam you get the better
                        it gets.

                        http://popfile.sourceforge.net/

                        HTH

                        fw





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Axel Berger
                        ... No, not him. Richard is young(-ish) and quite bright if not very technical. But being a church warden he will get mail from very elderly and very computer
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 9, 2007
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                          Ed Brown wrote:
                          > I guess you would say he is computer challenged? Tell him to quit
                          > think old and start studying.

                          No, not him. Richard is young(-ish) and quite bright if not very
                          technical. But being a church warden he will get mail from very elderly
                          and very computer illiterate parishioners. So my question is, do you
                          suppose these might be put off by a challenge-response from him?

                          N.B: The name's Axel. But I know that English speaking people often
                          automatically substitute the more common (to them) Alex.

                          Axel
                        • Ed Brown
                          Ah yes that is a problem, if they know how to receive emails and read them that makes it easier. Perhaps he could start a computer class for the elderly or
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 9, 2007
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                            Ah yes that is a problem, if they know how to receive emails and read them that makes it easier. Perhaps he could start a computer class for the elderly or have a local school run an evening class for them for a few weeks. The local community college does that here and there is usually a full class.
                            Ed
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Axel Berger
                            To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 16:12
                            Subject: [personal] Re: [NTO] spam


                            Ed Brown wrote:
                            > I guess you would say he is computer challenged? Tell him to quit
                            > think old and start studying.

                            No, not him. Richard is young(-ish) and quite bright if not very
                            technical. But being a church warden he will get mail from very elderly
                            and very computer illiterate parishioners. So my question is, do you
                            suppose these might be put off by a challenge-response from him?

                            N.B: The name's Axel. But I know that English speaking people often
                            automatically substitute the more common (to them) Alex.

                            Axel




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Fay Johnston
                            On Wednesday, October 10, 2007 1:54 AM ... I ve had MailWasher for years--not sure how many! It s great. http://www.mailwasher.net/ Free if you have one email
                            Message 13 of 21 , Oct 9, 2007
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                              On Wednesday, October 10, 2007 1:54 AM
                              Ed Brown wrote:

                              > In the distant past there was some (much) discussion on various anti spam
                              > programs.

                              I've had MailWasher for years--not sure how many! It's great.


                              http://www.mailwasher.net/
                              Free if you have one email address, and I think now about $50 if you have
                              more than one.
                              It downloads the headers and first 20 lines of each email.
                              Pre-marks recognised spam. It seems to have a pretty extensive list of known
                              spam.
                              Shows size of each email and whether there are attachments.
                              You mark those from friends and it builds a "friends" list.
                              You mark any spam it's missed and those are added to the black list. It
                              doesn't miss very many, though.

                              It has a "bounce" facility, but I don't use that. Seems pretty pointless,
                              since most spam is from faked addresses.

                              You can also click a button to show all of the text in any particular email
                              if you want to.

                              When you've looked through the headers and unwanted mail is marked, you say
                              "Process Mail" and it opens your email client. You then click to "Receive
                              All" and only the good emails are downloaded.
                              (You have to have your client set to never check for email.)

                              A bonus is that if you're on dial-up and see that a friend has sent a 2MB
                              attachment, you can mark that email for deletion, then let the friend know
                              that you weren't able to receive their email because it was too big for your
                              mail program.

                              Updates to paid version are seamless. You d/l the new version of the program
                              and run the setup. It picks up all your existing settings. I don't know
                              whether you get the same updates with the free version.
                            • Jason W.
                              ... I ll go further than alice and say C/R is plain evil. It s shifting the cost of filtering spam onto the senders of your email. And sometimes, it s shifting
                              Message 14 of 21 , Oct 9, 2007
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                                On 10/9/07, alice ttlg <alice.ttlg@...> wrote:
                                > On 10/9/07, Don - HtmlFixIt.com <don@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I just use Thunderbird and it does a pretty decent job. Ask the isp if
                                > > they have a challenge response system available. Those work pretty well
                                > > too.
                                >
                                > One thing to keep in mind with challenge response programs, they can
                                > cause all kinds of problems with mailing lists that you belong to -

                                I'll go further than alice and say C/R is plain evil. It's shifting
                                the cost of filtering spam onto the senders of your email. And
                                sometimes, it's shifting cost onto third parties who have nothing to
                                do with your email.

                                C/R relies on the sender of the email to be correct and that is not
                                always so. Forging the sender on an email is trivial with most userr
                                email programs out there (Outlook, Thunderbird, Eudora). So you can
                                bet all the spambots do it :)

                                But what's worse is the address that is forged is often real and
                                valid, so some third party gets challenges for mail that they didn't
                                send. So in effect, they are being spammed by the C/R system.

                                I (and others) could go on & on, but in most anti-spam circles, it's a
                                stain on the ground where the dead horse was. Not that I have a strong
                                opinion about it, mind you ;-)

                                --
                                HTH, YMMV, HANW :)

                                Jason

                                My operat~1 system unders~1 long filena~1, does yours?
                              • Axel Berger
                                ... Point taken. I am not going to recommend it. Axel
                                Message 15 of 21 , Oct 9, 2007
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                                  "Jason W." wrote:
                                  > Not that I have a strong
                                  > opinion about it, mind you ;-)

                                  Point taken. I am not going to recommend it.

                                  Axel
                                • bruce.somers@web.de
                                  This barrage of messages may not fall under the heading SPAM, but it certainly is annoying! Bruce
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Oct 9, 2007
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                                    This barrage of messages may not fall under the heading SPAM, but it certainly is annoying!

                                    Bruce
                                  • fw7oaks
                                    That s done with my eMail client. POPFile adds a X-Text-Classification header ( unclassified ) and I tell my eMail program to ignore it. However I should
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Oct 9, 2007
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                                      That's done with my eMail client. POPFile adds a 'X-Text-Classification header'
                                      ('unclassified') and I tell my eMail program to ignore it. However I should
                                      add that for Yahoo Groups I use the Webmail interface and rely on Yahoo on
                                      pitching the junk, which they do very well, which is why you don't see any
                                      pre-selection on this reply.

                                      Sadly not every eMail client (program) is clever enough to do the necessary
                                      processing.

                                      HTH

                                      fw

                                      --- Ed Brown <ebrown1927@...> wrote:

                                      > It is taking some time to get my acct setup so I will ask you how to removed
                                      > the [unclassified] in the subject line? You do not have [unclassified] in
                                      > your subject line. How did you get rid of it. I was having the same problem,
                                      > everytime I replied my subject line looked like this:
                                      > Re: [unclassified] Re: [NTO] spam
                                      >
                                      > and with the [unclassified] in the subject line it was causing problems in
                                      > archiving the messages and I had to delete each time I replied which was one
                                      > reason that I dropped Popfile.
                                      >
                                      > Ed
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: fw7oaks
                                      > To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 11:32
                                      > Subject: [unclassified] Re: [NTO] spam
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I'm using POPFile, a bit of a fiddle to set up, but the instructions are
                                      > clear
                                      > enough if you take your time and don't rush, the more spam you get the
                                      > better
                                      > it gets.
                                      >
                                      > http://popfile.sourceforge.net/
                                      >
                                      > HTH
                                      >
                                      > fw
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Ed Brown
                                      Sorry I forgot to remove the hated brackets. And as much spam as there is any way to stop is desireable. And there are all these Spam removers which have the
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Oct 9, 2007
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                                        Sorry I forgot to remove the hated brackets. And as much spam as there is
                                        any way to stop is desireable. And there are all these Spam removers which
                                        have the ability to learn what is spam and what is not. This topic is not
                                        only boring to you but there are spammers out there who might also find it
                                        boring. And this is the off topic list and anything to help each other is
                                        discussed here.
                                        Ed

                                        .
                                        >This barrage of messages may not fall under the heading >SPAM, but it
                                        >certainly is annoying!
                                        >Bruce



                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: <bruce.somers@...>
                                        To: <ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 18:12
                                        Subject: [notetab] Re: [NTO] spam


                                        > This barrage of messages may not fall under the heading SPAM, but it
                                        > certainly is annoying!
                                        >
                                        > Bruce
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Alec Burgess
                                        Ed Brown said on Oct 09, 2007 16:44 -0400 (in part): It is taking some time to get my acct setup so I will ask you how to removed
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Oct 9, 2007
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                                          "Ed Brown" <ebrown1927@...> said on Oct 09, 2007 16:44 -0400 (in
                                          part):

                                          It is taking some time to get my acct setup so I will ask you how to
                                          removed the [unclassified] in the subject line? You do not have
                                          [unclassified] in your subject line. How did you get rid of it. I was
                                          having the same problem, everytime I replied my subject line looked
                                          like this:
                                          Re: [unclassified] Re: [NTO] spam

                                          Ed: the tags can be suppressed for particular buckets - in the Popfile-UI
                                          go to the Buckets tab where you have these choices for each bucket:

                                          - Subject Header Modification
                                          - X-Text-Classification Header
                                          - X-POPFile-Link Header
                                          - Quarantine Message


                                          and with the [unclassified] in the subject line it was causing
                                          problems in archiving the messages and I had to delete each time I
                                          replied which was one reason that I dropped Popfile.

                                          What email client are you using? With Thunderbird you can use the X-Text
                                          Classification as the basis for filtering (including automatically putting
                                          all Unclassified in a particular folder because each one should be
                                          re-classified in the PopFile UI).

                                          If interested have a look at a recent post I made to the Popfile sourceforge
                                          forum:

                                          - *RE: Pre-existing T-Bird filters work with
                                          Pop<https://sourceforge.net/forum/message.php?msg_id=4555956>
                                          *

                                          I hope you'll give it another try :-) .
                                          K9 is another free one that does a good job.
                                          If you've got the inclination/ability to switch from Yahoo-Web Mail to
                                          Google-gmail you'll find that it does a pretty good job of filtering spam
                                          and with the auto-forward to POP3 account you get (IMO) the best of both
                                          worlds!


                                          Ed

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: fw7oaks
                                          To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 11:32
                                          Subject: [unclassified] Re: [NTO] spam


                                          I'm using POPFile, a bit of a fiddle to set up, but the instructions are clear
                                          enough if you take your time and don't rush, the more spam you get the better
                                          it gets.


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • rosemary@sndc.demon.co.uk
                                          ... We don t. We just delete them with glee! When we can remember....
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Oct 10, 2007
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                                            Axel-Berger@... wrote:
                                            > alice ttlg wrote:
                                            > > Filtering your incoming mail is much less intrusive to legitimate
                                            > > senders and a much better solution than challenge/response programs,
                                            > > imho.
                                            > Well said. There may be exceptions. I know a church warden with a well
                                            > known and frequently published address he can't easily change and who
                                            > gets 300 spam (spams? Is spam countable?) per day.
                                            > In the experience of all folks here: How do elderly fuddy-duddies who
                                            > just master email
                                            > copy with those challenges?
                                            > Axel
                                            >
                                            We don't. We just delete them with glee! When we can remember....
                                          • Stan Blazejewski
                                            ... Same here, highly recommended. There is a free version but it s well worth paying for the pro version. The best part of it is that it checks the mail at
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Oct 10, 2007
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                                              On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:32:18 +1000, you wrote:

                                              >On Wednesday, October 10, 2007 1:54 AM
                                              >Ed Brown wrote:
                                              >
                                              >> In the distant past there was some (much) discussion on various anti spam
                                              >> programs.
                                              >
                                              >I've had MailWasher for years--not sure how many! It's great.

                                              Same here, highly recommended. There is a free version but it's well worth
                                              paying for the pro version. The best part of it is that it checks the mail 'at
                                              the ISP level' & junk/spam get deleted 'before' it get downloaded to your
                                              computer... great for the junk/spam that has large attachments.

                                              >
                                              >
                                              >http://www.mailwasher.net/
                                              >Free if you have one email address, and I think now about $50 if you have
                                              >more than one.
                                              >It downloads the headers and first 20 lines of each email.
                                              >Pre-marks recognised spam. It seems to have a pretty extensive list of known
                                              >spam.
                                              >Shows size of each email and whether there are attachments.
                                              >You mark those from friends and it builds a "friends" list.
                                              >You mark any spam it's missed and those are added to the black list. It
                                              >doesn't miss very many, though.
                                              >
                                              >It has a "bounce" facility, but I don't use that. Seems pretty pointless,
                                              >since most spam is from faked addresses.
                                              >
                                              >You can also click a button to show all of the text in any particular email
                                              >if you want to.
                                              >
                                              >When you've looked through the headers and unwanted mail is marked, you say
                                              >"Process Mail" and it opens your email client. You then click to "Receive
                                              >All" and only the good emails are downloaded.
                                              >(You have to have your client set to never check for email.)
                                              >
                                              >A bonus is that if you're on dial-up and see that a friend has sent a 2MB
                                              >attachment, you can mark that email for deletion, then let the friend know
                                              >that you weren't able to receive their email because it was too big for your
                                              >mail program.
                                              >
                                              >Updates to paid version are seamless. You d/l the new version of the program
                                              >and run the setup. It picks up all your existing settings. I don't know
                                              >whether you get the same updates with the free version.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
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                                              Australia isn't "down under", it's "off to one side"!

                                              stanblaz@...
                                              www.cobracat.com (home of the Australian Cobra Catamaran)
                                              www.parkdaleyc.com (where most of them sail)
                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cobra-cat/ (where we talk about them)
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