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RE: [NTO] The not genuine message

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  • Mobile Estimator2
    Not sure this is what is happening in your case but you might want to investigate. Microsoft last year began a transition to the Select 6.0 software
    Message 1 of 30 , May 24, 2006
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      Not sure this is what is happening in your case but you might want to
      investigate.

      "Microsoft last year began a transition to the "Select 6.0" software
      licensing program. The prime feature of this program is the elimination of
      software upgrades, in favor of something Microsoft calls "Software
      Assurance." Under Software Assurance, you can pay about twice as much as the
      normal cost of a license, to buy the right to install any upgrades for the
      next two to three calendar years. (Software Assurance always expires on
      December 31st, so if you buy it late in the year, it's good for slightly
      more than two years, but if you buy it in January, it's good for almost
      three years)."

      Bill Scott
      http://www.abibleverse4you.com
    • loro
      ... Give them the benefit of a doubt. Are you sure the shop didn t put pirated software on the computer? It happens. Lotta
      Message 2 of 30 , May 24, 2006
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        Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold wrote:
        >Microsoft has lost any goodwill I had towards it.

        Give them the benefit of a doubt. Are you sure the shop didn't put pirated
        software on the computer? It happens.

        Lotta
      • Jason Rush
        Adrian, I work for Microsoft, and you are using my intellectual property without having paid my company and me for our labor in creating it. It s unfortunate
        Message 3 of 30 , May 24, 2006
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          Adrian, I work for Microsoft, and you are using my intellectual property
          without having paid my company and me for our labor in creating it. It's
          unfortunate if you paid money to a pirate for stolen property, but it's not
          Microsoft's fault, it's yours.

          Jason


          -----Original Message-----
          From: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
          Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 8:32 AM
          To: ntb-offtopic@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [NTO] The not genuine message

          Thanks for the information. The effect on the screen is nasty, plus they
          cause a slow countdown to continue use.

          The immediate solution (should it happen to anyone else) is to go to System
          Update and go back before the invasion, then block automatic updates.

          Microsoft has lost any goodwill I had towards it.

          Adrian Worsfold

          http://www.pluralist.co.uk



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        • loro
          ... Jason, I think Adrian was answering Bill s post about Select 6.0 and assumed the software he bought had expired. I, too, put my bet on that the shop s
          Message 4 of 30 , May 24, 2006
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            Jason Rush wrote:
            >Adrian, I work for Microsoft, and you are using my intellectual property

            Jason, I think Adrian was answering Bill's post about Select 6.0 and
            assumed the software he bought had expired. I, too, put my bet on that the
            shop's shady and put not-so-legal software on. Hope you can get your money
            back, Adrian.

            Lotta
          • Larry Hamilton
            Jason, I think there is a big difference between someone buying Microsoft software in good faith from what appears to be a legitimate vendor, and getting it
            Message 5 of 30 , May 24, 2006
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              Jason,

              I think there is a big difference between someone buying Microsoft
              software in good faith from what appears to be a legitimate vendor, and
              getting it from someone in a dark alley with a Rolex.

              It is possible that the shop is small, and that their supplier is the
              crook. As I understand it, it is the complexities of where the
              counterfeits enter the supply chain is why Microsoft chose to
              inconvenience users of illegal software. However, for those who thought
              they did all the right things, and still do not have a legal copy, it is
              a big pain in the backside.

              Adrian should both go to the shop and complain to MS. I have legal
              software, so my OS did not break when I installed the genuine patch.
              What Adrian describes is more problematic than the blurb I read on the
              MS site before I decided to install the genuine patch. MS admits that
              users may buy in good faith and have a way to get a legal copy, but
              harassing someone who got bit unawares just perpetuates MS as a bully.

              Perhaps as an MS employee, and thus a representative of the company on
              this public forum, you should familiarize yourself with how the MS
              genuine program works, and post a link, email address, or phone number
              he could call to fix his problem. That would be a more positive way to
              support one of the many Microsoft users on this list.

              Larry Hamilton
              <><

              Jason Rush wrote:
              >
              >
              > Adrian, I work for Microsoft, and you are using my intellectual property
              > without having paid my company and me for our labor in creating it. It's
              > unfortunate if you paid money to a pirate for stolen property, but it's not
              > Microsoft's fault, it's yours.
              >
              > Jason
            • Scott Fordin
              Larry, I was going to reply to Jason s message in kind, but you have stated my sentiments in such a clear, constructive, and gracious way -- far better than
              Message 6 of 30 , May 24, 2006
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                Larry,

                I was going to reply to Jason's message in kind, but you have
                stated my sentiments in such a clear, constructive, and gracious
                way -- far better than anything I would have come up with --
                that no further exposition is necessary. Thank you!

                Scott

                Larry Hamilton wrote:
                > Jason,
                >
                > I think there is a big difference between someone buying Microsoft
                > software in good faith from what appears to be a legitimate vendor, and
                > getting it from someone in a dark alley with a Rolex.
                >
                > It is possible that the shop is small, and that their supplier is the
                > crook. As I understand it, it is the complexities of where the
                > counterfeits enter the supply chain is why Microsoft chose to
                > inconvenience users of illegal software. However, for those who thought
                > they did all the right things, and still do not have a legal copy, it is
                > a big pain in the backside.
                >
                > Adrian should both go to the shop and complain to MS. I have legal
                > software, so my OS did not break when I installed the genuine patch.
                > What Adrian describes is more problematic than the blurb I read on the
                > MS site before I decided to install the genuine patch. MS admits that
                > users may buy in good faith and have a way to get a legal copy, but
                > harassing someone who got bit unawares just perpetuates MS as a bully.
                >
                > Perhaps as an MS employee, and thus a representative of the company on
                > this public forum, you should familiarize yourself with how the MS
                > genuine program works, and post a link, email address, or phone number
                > he could call to fix his problem. That would be a more positive way to
                > support one of the many Microsoft users on this list.
                >
                > Larry Hamilton
                > <><
                >
                > Jason Rush wrote:
                >>
                >>
                >> Adrian, I work for Microsoft, and you are using my intellectual property
                >> without having paid my company and me for our labor in creating it. It's
                >> unfortunate if you paid money to a pirate for stolen property, but it's not
                >> Microsoft's fault, it's yours.
                >>
                >> Jason
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Larry Hamilton
                Scott, Thanks for the kudos. I just wish that I were as gracious when I m on the other end of constructive criticism. ;-) Larry
                Message 7 of 30 , May 24, 2006
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                  Scott,

                  Thanks for the kudos.

                  I just wish that I were as gracious when I'm on the other end of
                  constructive criticism. ;-)

                  Larry

                  Scott Fordin wrote:
                  > Larry,
                  >
                  > I was going to reply to Jason's message in kind, but you have
                  > stated my sentiments in such a clear, constructive, and gracious
                  > way -- far better than anything I would have come up with --
                  > that no further exposition is necessary. Thank you!
                  >
                  > Scott
                • Barry
                  Well said Larry. Microsoft doesn t endear it self at the best of times and a little bit of PR wouldn t go amiss. Take care. Barry UK ... From: Larry
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 25, 2006
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                    Well said Larry. Microsoft doesn't endear it self at the best of times and
                    a little bit of PR wouldn't go amiss.

                    Take care. Barry UK

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Larry Hamilton" <lmh@...>
                    To: <ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 12:32 AM
                    Subject: Re: [NTO] The not genuine message


                    Jason,

                    I think there is a big difference between someone buying Microsoft
                    software in good faith from what appears to be a legitimate vendor, and
                    getting it from someone in a dark alley with a Rolex.
                  • David Ash
                    I don t have a hologrammed CD. Dell for one don t supply them any more -- the operating system is delivered on a separate partition on the hard disk. There s
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 25, 2006
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                      I don't have a hologrammed CD. Dell for one don't supply them any more --
                      the operating system is delivered on a separate partition on the hard
                      disk.

                      There's a hologram stuck to the bottom of my laptop, though (until it
                      wears away).

                      D+

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Jason Rush" <rush@...>
                      To: <ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:47 AM
                      Subject: RE: [NTO] The not genuine message

                      A proper licensed copy of Windows comes on a CD with a hologram on the
                      front
                      that's quite distinctive, and if you don't have such a CD, it may be that
                      the store sold you a pirated copy.

                      Jason
                    • John Zeman
                      ... more -- ... That s one reason why I quit buying Dell computers. You lose the hard drive and you re out of luck as far as restoring the machine. John
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 25, 2006
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                        --- In ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com, David Ash <yho@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I don't have a hologrammed CD. Dell for one don't supply them any
                        more --
                        > the operating system is delivered on a separate partition on the hard
                        > disk.
                        >
                        > There's a hologram stuck to the bottom of my laptop, though (until it
                        > wears away).
                        >
                        > D+


                        That's one reason why I quit buying Dell computers. You lose the hard
                        drive and you're out of luck as far as restoring the machine.

                        John
                      • David Ash
                        ... Warning: There is a fault with your Innocent Until Proved Guilty policy management subsystem which could compromise your Company s public relations
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 25, 2006
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                          On Wed May 24, 2006 7:16 pm Jason Rush wrote:

                          > Adrian, I work for Microsoft, and you are using my
                          > intellectual property without having paid my company and me
                          > for our labor in creating it. It's unfortunate if you paid
                          > money to a pirate for stolen property, but it's not
                          > Microsoft's fault, it's yours.

                          > Jason

                          "Warning: There is a fault with your Innocent Until Proved Guilty policy
                          management subsystem which could compromise your Company's public
                          relations effort. Please visit the Microsoft site to check for the latest
                          updates."

                          D+
                        • Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
                          Thanks for the replies. The situation is that I bought the computer with the now clearly illegally installed operating system from RM Computers at 5 Market
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 25, 2006
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                            Thanks for the replies.

                            The situation is that I bought the computer with the now clearly illegally installed operating
                            system from RM Computers at 5 Market Place in Barton-on-Humber on 30th March 2005 and
                            as far as I was concerned I had no reason to think otherwise that the Windows XP Pro was
                            legal. I have found the receipt, and it is interesting because it does not mention the operating
                            system, nor does it mention the Microsoft Office that was installed too. So I might now
                            assume that that was illegal too.

                            Yesterday (Thursday) I went to the shop where he used to trade (closed and sold to a small
                            fabric retailer) and was told he works from Newtons Printers nearby. They said they bought
                            his stock from him and now give out his mobile number. I took this and after a voicemail
                            deposit I later rang again and spoke to him. He told me to do how to remove the offending
                            "May be a victim of Counterfeit" notices and slow speed of switching on - the countdown to
                            ungreying the "Resolve later" button - installed by the Microsoft update. He said the longer
                            term solution was that files can be backed up and he would put on Windows XP Home and
                            would cost me £70, costs him £65. He would not charge for his time. He now just deals with
                            existing customers and warranties. He said he did this with the operating system to keep
                            down the price. (Well we can all keep down the price by not paying for something!)

                            Now having given this some thought, this is not the solution is it, because he has installed
                            operating system software I thought was legal and is not, and therefore this surely needs
                            pursuing in a different way. It is a huge inconvenience to me to have to back up files and
                            data, not only this but I restructure the Start button shortcuts too. Presumably the Windows XP
                            Home would be legal, but this computer has been running Windows XP Pro.

                            So there are two issues here. One is the way I have been hoodwinked. The evidence is that I
                            was supplied with an operating system, and secondly his advertising. Unfortunately I did not
                            keep his advertising that described new and reconditioned computers with Windows XP
                            supplied. Mine was not new.

                            The second issue is that Microsoft have messed up my system on pain of reporting this
                            trader to them. Only if I pay Microsoft money or report this person can I have my computer
                            restored. Now it is not up to me to report him to Microsoft, nor is it right for my computer to be
                            messed up. It is up to Microsoft to deal with the rogue traders themselves. My contract is with
                            this trader, and I am going to go today to the local authority to pursue this further. Microsoft
                            have, or should have, a contract with him.

                            I have no difficulty with publishing (as indeed I am doing here) the details of this trader and
                            his business (that has ceased trading - and I only know his first name, Roger). What is wrong
                            is that Microsoft is using their dispute with such traders to affect retail customers' computers,
                            and it is an abuse of their privilege in sending automatic updates. This is a matter which I
                            have sent to my Member of Parliament and especially one of my Members of the European
                            Parliament to pass this behaviour on to the European Commission. I have received replies
                            from both. The European Commission deals with Microsoft issues because of the EU role
                            and the size and power of Microsoft, as demonstrated in this case.

                            Adrian Worsfold

                            http://www.pluralist.co.uk
                          • Jason Rush
                            Hi Adrian, Please let us know what the local authority advises. I m very interested. Since you apparently propose neither paying Microsoft for their operating
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 25, 2006
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                              Hi Adrian,

                              Please let us know what the local authority advises. I'm very interested.
                              Since you apparently propose neither paying Microsoft for their operating
                              system, nor turning in the pirate, yet you insist on continuing to use
                              Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office, it seems unlikely that the EU and
                              your MP will be willing to go to bat for you, but I could well be mistaken:
                              We Americans are not as sophisticated as you in our understanding of right
                              and wrong, and I may be missing some nuance.

                              The question of what this person advertised is not relevant. He may have
                              advertised and sold Windows and Office to someone, but if they are not on
                              your receipt, he did not sell them to you.

                              Why not just pay Microsoft for their software, or turn in the pirate. You
                              are not the victim here, Microsoft is. It is incredibly generous of
                              Microsoft to give you that second option; they did not have to do that.

                              Jason




                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf Of Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
                              Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 6:06 AM
                              To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [NTO] The not genuine message

                              Thanks for the replies.

                              The situation is that I bought the computer with the now clearly illegally
                              installed operating system from RM Computers at 5 Market Place in
                              Barton-on-Humber on 30th March 2005 and as far as I was concerned I had no
                              reason to think otherwise that the Windows XP Pro was legal. I have found
                              the receipt, and it is interesting because it does not mention the operating
                              system, nor does it mention the Microsoft Office that was installed too. So
                              I might now assume that that was illegal too.

                              Yesterday (Thursday) I went to the shop where he used to trade (closed and
                              sold to a small fabric retailer) and was told he works from Newtons Printers
                              nearby. They said they bought his stock from him and now give out his mobile
                              number. I took this and after a voicemail deposit I later rang again and
                              spoke to him. He told me to do how to remove the offending "May be a victim
                              of Counterfeit" notices and slow speed of switching on - the countdown to
                              ungreying the "Resolve later" button - installed by the Microsoft update.
                              He said the longer term solution was that files can be backed up and he
                              would put on Windows XP Home and would cost me £70, costs him £65. He would
                              not charge for his time. He now just deals with existing customers and
                              warranties. He said he did this with the operating system to keep down the
                              price. (Well we can all keep down the price by not paying for something!)

                              Now having given this some thought, this is not the solution is it, because
                              he has installed operating system software I thought was legal and is not,
                              and therefore this surely needs pursuing in a different way. It is a huge
                              inconvenience to me to have to back up files and data, not only this but I
                              restructure the Start button shortcuts too. Presumably the Windows XP Home
                              would be legal, but this computer has been running Windows XP Pro.

                              So there are two issues here. One is the way I have been hoodwinked. The
                              evidence is that I was supplied with an operating system, and secondly his
                              advertising. Unfortunately I did not keep his advertising that described new
                              and reconditioned computers with Windows XP supplied. Mine was not new.

                              The second issue is that Microsoft have messed up my system on pain of
                              reporting this trader to them. Only if I pay Microsoft money or report this
                              person can I have my computer restored. Now it is not up to me to report him
                              to Microsoft, nor is it right for my computer to be messed up. It is up to
                              Microsoft to deal with the rogue traders themselves. My contract is with
                              this trader, and I am going to go today to the local authority to pursue
                              this further. Microsoft have, or should have, a contract with him.

                              I have no difficulty with publishing (as indeed I am doing here) the details
                              of this trader and his business (that has ceased trading - and I only know
                              his first name, Roger). What is wrong is that Microsoft is using their
                              dispute with such traders to affect retail customers' computers, and it is
                              an abuse of their privilege in sending automatic updates. This is a matter
                              which I have sent to my Member of Parliament and especially one of my
                              Members of the European Parliament to pass this behaviour on to the European
                              Commission. I have received replies from both. The European Commission deals
                              with Microsoft issues because of the EU role and the size and power of
                              Microsoft, as demonstrated in this case.

                              Adrian Worsfold

                              http://www.pluralist.co.uk




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                            • Mark Partous
                              Hello John, Thursday, May 25, 2006, 1:51:16 PM, you wrote: JZ That s one reason why I quit buying Dell computers. You lose the hard JZ drive and you re out
                              Message 14 of 30 , May 25, 2006
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                                Hello John,

                                Thursday, May 25, 2006, 1:51:16 PM, you wrote:

                                JZ> That's one reason why I quit buying Dell computers. You lose the hard
                                JZ> drive and you're out of luck as far as restoring the machine.

                                The same applies to my Packard-Bell (the operating system is delivered on a
                                separate partition on the hard disk).

                                After I returned it to P-B, because the computer didn't boot any more, I
                                have since made (several) images (with True Image) of the whole Hard Disk
                                (all partitions, including the one with the Windows XP OS-installation
                                software).

                                Because there still were/are problems (seems to have improved after turning
                                hyperthreading off in the BIOS) I also installed Xandros Pro 3 to find out if
                                it was a hardware or software problem.

                                The remaining problem (often, after booting the PC it "freezes", sometimes I
                                have to restart 3 or 4 times - then, without identifiable reason it works and
                                the freezing does not occur anymore for as long as the computer isn't turned
                                off) does not seem to be OS-related (*).

                                Now, should the HD crash, would that mean that restoring the image to a new
                                Hard Disk also would generate an "illegal copy"-warning, even though it is a
                                genuine one, simply because it is another Hard Disk? (**)

                                If so, and though I have paid for XP, for that particular PC I think I would
                                not go through the "hassle" to get a solution from Microsoft or Packard-Bell.
                                I suppose I would only re-install Xandros, which has cost me less than XP
                                (not even taking into account that I can install it on several computers
                                (legally!). Furthermore, I can also run Microsoft Office on it...

                                (*): Actually, the "freezing"-problem seems to be less frequent when running
                                Xandros, but that may be a coincidence and/or impression.
                                Why does the problem go away after restarting (several times)?
                                It seems as if some part of the PC has to be warmed up?!?
                                That sounds highly improbable, but I do not have another explanation...
                                (**): Or would XP think it still is the original HD, because of the restoring
                                of the image?

                                --
                                Best Wishes,
                                Mark
                                using The Bat! 3.80.06
                              • Alan_C
                                On Thursday 25 May 2006 10:18, Mark Partous wrote: [ . . ] ... To do a (google, for example) search on the likes of xp activation should turn up more info.
                                Message 15 of 30 , May 25, 2006
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                                  On Thursday 25 May 2006 10:18, Mark Partous wrote:
                                  [ . . ]
                                  > Now, should the HD crash, would that mean that restoring the image to a new
                                  > Hard Disk also would generate an "illegal copy"-warning, even though it is
                                  > a genuine one, simply because it is another Hard Disk? (**)

                                  To do a (google, for example) search on the likes of "xp activation" should
                                  turn up more info.

                                  Very briefly, in your mentioned, the answer is: most likely not. And that is
                                  due to an "acumulation" sort of a charecteristic that's built in to the XP's
                                  activation components/monotoring. Within a certain time frame, you may
                                  acumulate up to near 3 maybe 4 of what are considered (by Microsoft)
                                  as "minor" hardware changes before XP will inactivate itself.

                                  There is also a time frame. For example, you cannot change motherboard -- at
                                  least not right away soon after the initial XP activation. But after some
                                  months (guessing perhaps 3 to 4) then you might able to because the slate
                                  gets wiped clean periodically, regularly at the mentioned time frame. This
                                  is so that (what Microsoft has determined to be) "normal" hardware pieces
                                  failing/being_replaced every so often will not trigger XP to inactivate
                                  itself.

                                  That's for a retail purchased XP just the OS itself that I can buy and then
                                  install on my computer.. Pack Bell and other major brands may pre activate
                                  the Win XP. But they likely have something along the lines of what the
                                  retail boxed OS as far as "continuing to remain activated so that the user
                                  doesn't get shut down.

                                  I'm with Win 2K. I decided not to and will not buy XP because I didn't want
                                  to risk my time having to phone Microsoft just so as to prove to them that I
                                  own something that I have already paid for and have a retail receipt for just
                                  because my motherboard or sufficient other hardware failed on me too early
                                  (prior to the 3 or so months before the slate gets wiped clean by Microsoft's
                                  database).

                                  And that's another matter, the matter of Microsoft's database keeping a file
                                  about my computer as to when what piece of hardware was changed on it during
                                  what time period. The detailed snapshot of my hardware profile.

                                  I'm on a (personal as in I will *not* buy it) strike against any software that
                                  snaps a hardware profile as a part of the required in order to activate so
                                  that the software can be used.

                                  *Yes* the developer gets to do it (and I can certainly empathise with them and
                                  see their reasons for doing it). No problem that they get to do it. But
                                  *yes* a prospective buyer has option to choose.

                                  I've been using open source Linux very much mostly anyways.

                                  I find it interesting that what was once a hobby for Linus Torvalds has
                                  evidently according to some news articles become "so competitive" or
                                  perhaps "a huge and thriving force" that Microsoft can no longer ignore it
                                  (as far as Microsoft's competition goes).

                                  --
                                  Alan.
                                • Jody
                                  Hi All, I just wanted to say thanks to all of you that replied in a friendly adult like manner. I believe I have a pretty good handle on all the list members
                                  Message 16 of 30 , May 25, 2006
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                                    Hi All,

                                    I just wanted to say thanks to all of you that replied in a
                                    friendly adult like manner. I believe I have a pretty good handle
                                    on all the list members that post even every now and then, why
                                    they do, their personalities, and so on, and etc. and... <g> I'm
                                    not going to point any fingers now, not that any need to be.

                                    You all, even me, could have jumped on board at anytime and
                                    started many flaming wars. Gee, if humans 'wanna' fight, and they
                                    don't have a reason they'll make one up. It's that simple. So,
                                    all my thanks again.

                                    Off to the last baseball game off the season. (I was an assistant
                                    coach (pitcher) and my son (10) plays first base. If we win this
                                    game we come in 2nd place in the division. :) The All-star
                                    (Allstar ?) game is Friday. My son and two other team members made
                                    it and will probably play the outfield since there are some
                                    really (!!!) good kids for the infield from the other teams
                                    picked.

                                    Proud daddy,
                                    Grampa Jody :)

                                    >To do a (google, for example) search on the likes of "xp activation" should
                                    >turn up more info.


                                    Happy Topics,
                                    Jody

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                                  • Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
                                    I d just like to say that having given this a lot of thought I have decided to report this trader to Microsoft and include an image of the invoice. Not only
                                    Message 17 of 30 , May 25, 2006
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                                      I'd just like to say that having given this a lot of thought I have decided to report this trader to
                                      Microsoft and include an image of the invoice. Not only this, but I keep a diary and have
                                      seen the basics of conversations at the time, and how I was comparing the purchase I did
                                      eventually make with one I was considering at Tesco supermarket. The clear impression
                                      was that the Windows XP was preinstalled because in fact I asked about Windows 2000,
                                      thinking it was less subject to interference than Windows XP and he said no, they are all
                                      Windows XP now. But of course they weren't, were they in that if something is illegal, you can
                                      bung anything on. I have even sent his mobile phone number.

                                      Now in sending this to Microsoft I have also told them about my annoyance at what has been
                                      done to my machine, and hopefully temporary system restore measures to stop it. This has
                                      gone via email and I have not actually asked them to send a legal key. I include my
                                      suspicion that the MS Office is illegal too, and a friend told me the price of it and I'm thinking
                                      that I was comparing this with bundles on new machines.

                                      Today I acquired the telephone number of Trading Standards and will ring them. I am
                                      considering sueing at the small claims court. I think the invoice I received is crafty - he knew
                                      what he was doing but did not exactly inform me.

                                      I further tell Microsoft that I may have been duped even further, because the CD recording of
                                      data fails a lot even with a slower speed. So this could be quite comprehensive.

                                      Adrian Worsfold

                                      http://www.pluralist.co.uk
                                    • Barry
                                      Good for you mister and I wholeheartedly agree with your decision. Too often the little man gets kicked in the crutch and no one gives a damn but you stick
                                      Message 18 of 30 , May 26, 2006
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                                        Good for you mister and I wholeheartedly agree with your decision. Too
                                        often the 'little man' gets kicked in the crutch and no one gives a damn but
                                        you stick with it. If you bite hard enough sooner or later you'll draw
                                        blood even though it may not happen in my lifetime <<LoL>>

                                        Take care. Barry UK

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold" <change@...>
                                        To: <ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 2:49 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [NTO] The not genuine message


                                        I'd just like to say that having given this a lot of thought I have decided
                                        to report this trader to
                                        Microsoft and include an image of the invoice.
                                      • Mark Partous
                                        Hello Alan, Thursday, May 25, 2006, 11:15:56 PM, you wrote: A I m with Win 2K. I decided not to and will not buy XP because I didn t want A to risk my time
                                        Message 19 of 30 , May 26, 2006
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                                          Hello Alan,

                                          Thursday, May 25, 2006, 11:15:56 PM, you wrote:

                                          A> I'm with Win 2K. I decided not to and will not buy XP because I didn't want
                                          A> to risk my time having to phone Microsoft just so as to prove to them that I
                                          A> own something that I have already paid for and have a retail receipt for just
                                          A> because my motherboard or sufficient other hardware failed on me too early
                                          A> (prior to the 3 or so months before the slate gets wiped clean by Microsoft's
                                          A> database).

                                          Thanks for your answer. It wasn't me that decided that XP was on two of the
                                          machines (the P-B laptop and one desktop). For business I still use Win 2K.
                                          All computers (that are compatible) have a Xandros partition too.

                                          --
                                          Best Wishes,
                                          Mark
                                          using The Bat! 3.80.06
                                        • Mobile Estimator2
                                          What ever happened to the customer is always right .... When MicroSoft came out they gave allot of software away and got my vote looks like the tables have
                                          Message 20 of 30 , May 26, 2006
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                                            What ever happened to the customer is always right .... When MicroSoft came
                                            out they gave allot of software away and got my vote looks like the tables
                                            have changed ... buying a Computer online is getting harder to do also ... I
                                            bought a Z83V online 2 months ago and I am still trying to get everything I
                                            ordered. Oh Well ... it's a brave new world ... Teach them they are animals
                                            and then wonder why they act like ... Monkey's

                                            Bill
                                          • Mobile Estimator2
                                            Good For You Jody .... Children need their faithers ...Bill
                                            Message 21 of 30 , May 26, 2006
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                                              Good For You Jody .... Children need their faithers ...Bill
                                            • Alan_C
                                              ... Side note: If on a major name brand PC (Pack Bell, HP, Dell, etc.) any the hardware failed too soon it most likely be the dealer s warranty issue anyways
                                              Message 22 of 30 , May 26, 2006
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                                                On Friday 26 May 2006 01:49, Mark Partous wrote:
                                                > Hello Alan,
                                                >
                                                > Thursday, May 25, 2006, 11:15:56 PM, you wrote:
                                                >
                                                > A> I'm with Win 2K. I decided not to and will not buy XP because I didn't
                                                > want A> to risk my time having to phone Microsoft just so as to prove to
                                                > them that I A> own something that I have already paid for and have a retail
                                                > receipt for just A> because my motherboard or sufficient other hardware
                                                > failed on me too early A> (prior to the 3 or so months before the slate
                                                > gets wiped clean by Microsoft's A> database).
                                                >
                                                > Thanks for your answer. It wasn't me that decided that XP was on two of the
                                                > machines (the P-B laptop and one desktop). For business I still use Win 2K.
                                                > All computers (that are compatible) have a Xandros partition too.

                                                Side note: If on a major name brand PC (Pack Bell, HP, Dell, etc.) any the
                                                hardware failed too soon it most likely be the dealer's warranty issue
                                                anyways therefore the end user would not experience time spent becoming
                                                involved with Microsoft.

                                                But I always build my own PC. (that's 1 reason why the Linux) (I've Win 2K on
                                                only 1 PC).

                                                Normally it (xp activate) *probably* would not be anything big enough to
                                                bother/concern over. But it's the principle of the possibility of my time
                                                becoming involved. And, just for me to *attempt* to prove to MS over the
                                                telephone that I own it and have the legal right to use it on thus_and_such
                                                hardware.

                                                MS has no way over the phone to discern whether someone being truthful or not
                                                about *significant and premature/early hardware failure*.
                                              • Alan_C
                                                MS has no way over the phone to discern whether someone being truthful or not about *significant and premature/early hardware failure* Oop, I ment to cut that.
                                                Message 23 of 30 , May 26, 2006
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                                                  MS has no way over the phone to discern whether someone being truthful or not
                                                  about *significant and premature/early hardware failure*

                                                  Oop, I ment to cut that. Sorry.

                                                  But if someone untruthful then the ms INTERNET database will snuff em due to
                                                  two different hardware profiles on the one Xp.
                                                • Chris Dart
                                                  We all like something for free if we can get it, but Jason and his colleagues put their time and effort into making the software and are entitled to be paid
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , May 29, 2006
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                                                    We all like something for free if we can get it, but Jason and his colleagues put their time and effort into making the software and are entitled to be paid for it. The ones to swear at, it would seem, are the staff in the place where you bought it.

                                                    If I found someone stealing my property they would find I can be very ‘nasty’. In a manner of speaking, it would seem you have been stolen from, but you are cursing the wrong people!



                                                    Chris



                                                    ________________________________

                                                    From: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason Rush
                                                    Sent: 24 May 2006 21:16
                                                    To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: RE: [NTO] The not genuine message





                                                    Adrian, I work for Microsoft, and you are using my intellectual property
                                                    without having paid my company and me for our labor in creating it. It's
                                                    unfortunate if you paid money to a pirate for stolen property, but it's not
                                                    Microsoft's fault, it's yours.

                                                    Jason


                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                    Behalf Of Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
                                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 8:32 AM
                                                    To: ntb-offtopic@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: [NTO] The not genuine message

                                                    Thanks for the information. The effect on the screen is nasty, plus they
                                                    cause a slow countdown to continue use.

                                                    The immediate solution (should it happen to anyone else) is to go to System
                                                    Update and go back before the invasion, then block automatic updates.

                                                    Microsoft has lost any goodwill I had towards it.

                                                    Adrian Worsfold

                                                    http://www.pluralist.co.uk



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                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Chris Dart
                                                    If you buy a stolen car – not knowing it to be stolen – but later the police or whoever catch up with it, you will find you have lost the car and your
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , May 29, 2006
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                                                      If you buy a stolen car – not knowing it to be stolen – but later the police or whoever catch up with it, you will find you have lost the car and your money and the only recourse is with the person who sold it to you. He will probably be in jail and you can whistle for your money. You have got a better deal from Microsoft, at least you get to keep what you bought, you just cannot update it.



                                                      Chris



                                                      ________________________________

                                                      From: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
                                                      Sent: 25 May 2006 15:06
                                                      To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: Re: [NTO] The not genuine message



                                                      Thanks for the replies.

                                                      The situation is that I bought the computer with the now clearly illegally installed operating
                                                      system from RM Computers at 5 Market Place in Barton-on-Humber on 30th March 2005 and
                                                      as far as I was concerned I had no reason to think otherwise that the Windows XP Pro was
                                                      legal. I have found the receipt, and it is interesting because it does not mention the operating
                                                      system, nor does it mention the Microsoft Office that was installed too. So I might now
                                                      assume that that was illegal too.

                                                      Yesterday (Thursday) I went to the shop where he used to trade (closed and sold to a small
                                                      fabric retailer) and was told he works from Newtons Printers nearby. They said they bought
                                                      his stock from him and now give out his mobile number. I took this and after a voicemail
                                                      deposit I later rang again and spoke to him. He told me to do how to remove the offending
                                                      "May be a victim of Counterfeit" notices and slow speed of switching on - the countdown to
                                                      ungreying the "Resolve later" button - installed by the Microsoft update. He said the longer
                                                      term solution was that files can be backed up and he would put on Windows XP Home and
                                                      would cost me £70, costs him £65. He would not charge for his time. He now just deals with
                                                      existing customers and warranties. He said he did this with the operating system to keep
                                                      down the price. (Well we can all keep down the price by not paying for something!)

                                                      Now having given this some thought, this is not the solution is it, because he has installed
                                                      operating system software I thought was legal and is not, and therefore this surely needs
                                                      pursuing in a different way. It is a huge inconvenience to me to have to back up files and
                                                      data, not only this but I restructure the Start button shortcuts too. Presumably the Windows XP
                                                      Home would be legal, but this computer has been running Windows XP Pro.

                                                      So there are two issues here. One is the way I have been hoodwinked. The evidence is that I
                                                      was supplied with an operating system, and secondly his advertising. Unfortunately I did not
                                                      keep his advertising that described new and reconditioned computers with Windows XP
                                                      supplied. Mine was not new.

                                                      The second issue is that Microsoft have messed up my system on pain of reporting this
                                                      trader to them. Only if I pay Microsoft money or report this person can I have my computer
                                                      restored. Now it is not up to me to report him to Microsoft, nor is it right for my computer to be
                                                      messed up. It is up to Microsoft to deal with the rogue traders themselves. My contract is with
                                                      this trader, and I am going to go today to the local authority to pursue this further. Microsoft
                                                      have, or should have, a contract with him.

                                                      I have no difficulty with publishing (as indeed I am doing here) the details of this trader and
                                                      his business (that has ceased trading - and I only know his first name, Roger). What is wrong
                                                      is that Microsoft is using their dispute with such traders to affect retail customers' computers,
                                                      and it is an abuse of their privilege in sending automatic updates. This is a matter which I
                                                      have sent to my Member of Parliament and especially one of my Members of the European
                                                      Parliament to pass this behaviour on to the European Commission. I have received replies
                                                      from both. The European Commission deals with Microsoft issues because of the EU role
                                                      and the size and power of Microsoft, as demonstrated in this case.

                                                      Adrian Worsfold

                                                      http://www.pluralist.co.uk





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                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Mark Partous
                                                      Hello Chris, Monday, May 29, 2006, 9:23:03 AM, you wrote: CD If you buy a stolen car – not knowing it to be stolen – but later the CD police or whoever
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , May 29, 2006
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                                                        Hello Chris,

                                                        Monday, May 29, 2006, 9:23:03 AM, you wrote:

                                                        CD> If you buy a stolen car – not knowing it to be stolen – but later the
                                                        CD> police or whoever catch up with it, you will find you have lost the car
                                                        CD> and your money and the only recourse is with the person who sold it to you.

                                                        I don't know where you are from, but in most "working" legal systems, this is
                                                        simply NOT true. If the stolen car was sold to someone who, in good faith,
                                                        bought it, he has become the legitimate owner. It is the original owner who
                                                        has to try to recuperate from the thief and/or the fence.

                                                        Without such a construction it would become very hazardous to buy anything at
                                                        all. That (even though in this case it protects the seller)also was the idea
                                                        behind the (no longer existing) system of Eurocheque; cheques accompanied by
                                                        the EC-card were guaranteed to be paid by the bank (max. ± 175 €), even if
                                                        they turned out to be stolen. If this would not have been the case, no merchant,
                                                        right in his mind, would have accepted such a cheque as payment.

                                                        Your comparison is not accurate, since, in this case, it was not the computer
                                                        that was stolen, but the operating system obviously wasn't paid for. Now,
                                                        I wouldn't know where to find the "operating system" of a car? :-)

                                                        Which does not mean I do not understand your point of view. Actually in this
                                                        case, the buyer should have asked for a proof of the legitimacy of the
                                                        software...

                                                        --
                                                        Best Wishes,
                                                        Mark
                                                        using The Bat! 3.80.06
                                                      • Jeff Scism
                                                        If the stolen car was sold to someone who, in good faith, bought it, he has become the legitimate owner. Here the person in possession would be arrested,
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , May 29, 2006
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                                                          "

                                                          If the stolen car was sold to someone who, in good faith,
                                                          bought it, he has become the legitimate owner.

                                                          "

                                                          Here the person in possession would be arrested, and the car would be
                                                          returned to the original owner from whom it was stolen. "possession of
                                                          stolen property" is a crime.

                                                          There have been cases where stolen items have been returned decades later.

                                                          With Software you are dealing with Intellectual property, and like a
                                                          copyright, it isn't a physical property, but a property of creativity.

                                                          The value determination is based on the USE of the property, and that is
                                                          why you license the software, rather than sell it as a outright sale.

                                                          Buying a book doesn't make it's contents yours, even though you own the
                                                          medium it is presented in, the "book". You do not have the right to copy
                                                          and resell the copies, but you can sell the ONE copy you bought.

                                                          Highjacking software takes the commercial value away from the creator
                                                          and puts it in the hands of the pirate.

                                                          You can't expect the creator to "service" the pirated copies, and you
                                                          can expect them to tell you that you have no license to use them, no
                                                          matter that you may think they were genuine when you bought them.

                                                          Caveat Emptor. It is the buyer's responsibility to assure he/she is
                                                          buying the genuine article, it is after all their money and their
                                                          decision to purchase. When you buy a pig in a poke, you end up with the
                                                          poke.


                                                          ~~

                                                          Jeffery Scism,
                                                          USGenWeb Project Local Coordinator Rep
                                                          NC/NE region




                                                          Mark Partous wrote:

                                                          >Hello Chris,
                                                          >
                                                          >Monday, May 29, 2006, 9:23:03 AM, you wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >CD> If you buy a stolen car – not knowing it to be stolen – but later the
                                                          >CD> police or whoever catch up with it, you will find you have lost the car
                                                          >CD> and your money and the only recourse is with the person who sold it to you.
                                                          >
                                                          >I don't know where you are from, but in most "working" legal systems, this is
                                                          >simply NOT true. If the stolen car was sold to someone who, in good faith,
                                                          >bought it, he has become the legitimate owner. It is the original owner who
                                                          >has to try to recuperate from the thief and/or the fence.
                                                          >
                                                          >Without such a construction it would become very hazardous to buy anything at
                                                          >all. That (even though in this case it protects the seller)also was the idea
                                                          >behind the (no longer existing) system of Eurocheque; cheques accompanied by
                                                          >the EC-card were guaranteed to be paid by the bank (max. ± 175 €), even if
                                                          >they turned out to be stolen. If this would not have been the case, no merchant,
                                                          >right in his mind, would have accepted such a cheque as payment.
                                                          >
                                                          >Your comparison is not accurate, since, in this case, it was not the computer
                                                          >that was stolen, but the operating system obviously wasn't paid for. Now,
                                                          >I wouldn't know where to find the "operating system" of a car? :-)
                                                          >
                                                          >Which does not mean I do not understand your point of view. Actually in this
                                                          >case, the buyer should have asked for a proof of the legitimacy of the
                                                          >software...
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                        • prog@lomascentral.com
                                                          I d regard the UK as a working legal system and it s true here. It s most often relevant in the case of stolen cars (simply because they re most commonly
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , May 29, 2006
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                                                            I'd regard the UK as a 'working' legal system and it's true here.

                                                            It's most often relevant in the case of stolen cars (simply because
                                                            they're most commonly stolen, sold on and found to be stolen) but it's
                                                            true for everything material.

                                                            You cannot be deprived of your ownership by theft.

                                                            Of course the discussion is about intellectual property rather than
                                                            material property.

                                                            Tim

                                                            Mark Partous wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > Hello Chris,
                                                            >
                                                            > Monday, May 29, 2006, 9:23:03 AM, you wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > CD> If you buy a stolen car – not knowing it to be stolen – but later the
                                                            > CD> police or whoever catch up with it, you will find you have lost the car
                                                            > CD> and your money and the only recourse is with the person who sold it to you.
                                                            >
                                                            > I don't know where you are from, but in most "working" legal systems, this is
                                                            > simply NOT true. If the stolen car was sold to someone who, in good faith,
                                                            > bought it, he has become the legitimate owner. It is the original owner who
                                                            > has to try to recuperate from the thief and/or the fence.
                                                            >
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