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RE: [NTO] The not genuine message

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  • Jason Rush
    A proper licensed copy of Windows comes on a CD with a hologram on the front that s quite distinctive, and if you don t have such a CD, it may be that the
    Message 1 of 30 , May 23, 2006
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      A proper licensed copy of Windows comes on a CD with a hologram on the front
      that's quite distinctive, and if you don't have such a CD, it may be that
      the store sold you a pirated copy.

      Jason


      -----Original Message-----
      From: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
      Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:26 PM
      To: ntb-offtopic@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [NTO] The not genuine message

      I bought my computer from a store that put them together. I took a Microsoft
      download of upgrade and as a result get a message that the software is not
      genuine when starting and finishing. I paid the full and proper price and
      now have to put up with this graffiti. Other than paying again, how can I
      get rid of this graffiti? Presumably this is now impossible. I did not even
      want any sodding upgrades.

      Meanwhile, let this be a warning to others. Accept nothing you do not
      actually want.

      Adrian Worsfold

      http://www.pluralist.co.uk



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    • Larry Hamilton
      ... Microsoft now has some process where you can prove you bought it in good faith and they will give you a genuine license. I am not sure exactly what the
      Message 2 of 30 , May 23, 2006
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        Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold wrote:
        > I bought my computer from a store that put them together. I took a Microsoft download of
        > upgrade and as a result get a message that the software is not genuine when starting and
        > finishing. I paid the full and proper price and now have to put up with this graffiti. Other than
        > paying again, how can I get rid of this graffiti? Presumably this is now impossible. I did not even
        > want any sodding upgrades.
        >
        > Meanwhile, let this be a warning to others. Accept nothing you do not actually want.
        >
        > Adrian Worsfold
        >
        > http://www.pluralist.co.uk
        Microsoft now has some process where you can prove you bought it in good
        faith and they will give you a genuine license. I am not sure exactly
        what the hoops are you have to go through to make this happen. If MS is
        smart, their annoyance message would include these details. Otherwise,
        it is on the MS website. I believe there is also a phone number you can
        call.

        Larry Hamilton
        Kairos Computer Solutions
        http://www.kairoscomputers.com/
        Sales Affiliate for Grisoft Anti-Virus
      • Mobile Estimator2
        Not sure this is what is happening in your case but you might want to investigate. Microsoft last year began a transition to the Select 6.0 software
        Message 3 of 30 , May 24, 2006
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          Not sure this is what is happening in your case but you might want to
          investigate.

          "Microsoft last year began a transition to the "Select 6.0" software
          licensing program. The prime feature of this program is the elimination of
          software upgrades, in favor of something Microsoft calls "Software
          Assurance." Under Software Assurance, you can pay about twice as much as the
          normal cost of a license, to buy the right to install any upgrades for the
          next two to three calendar years. (Software Assurance always expires on
          December 31st, so if you buy it late in the year, it's good for slightly
          more than two years, but if you buy it in January, it's good for almost
          three years)."

          Bill Scott
          http://www.abibleverse4you.com
        • loro
          ... Give them the benefit of a doubt. Are you sure the shop didn t put pirated software on the computer? It happens. Lotta
          Message 4 of 30 , May 24, 2006
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            Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold wrote:
            >Microsoft has lost any goodwill I had towards it.

            Give them the benefit of a doubt. Are you sure the shop didn't put pirated
            software on the computer? It happens.

            Lotta
          • Jason Rush
            Adrian, I work for Microsoft, and you are using my intellectual property without having paid my company and me for our labor in creating it. It s unfortunate
            Message 5 of 30 , May 24, 2006
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              Adrian, I work for Microsoft, and you are using my intellectual property
              without having paid my company and me for our labor in creating it. It's
              unfortunate if you paid money to a pirate for stolen property, but it's not
              Microsoft's fault, it's yours.

              Jason


              -----Original Message-----
              From: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
              Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 8:32 AM
              To: ntb-offtopic@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [NTO] The not genuine message

              Thanks for the information. The effect on the screen is nasty, plus they
              cause a slow countdown to continue use.

              The immediate solution (should it happen to anyone else) is to go to System
              Update and go back before the invasion, then block automatic updates.

              Microsoft has lost any goodwill I had towards it.

              Adrian Worsfold

              http://www.pluralist.co.uk



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            • loro
              ... Jason, I think Adrian was answering Bill s post about Select 6.0 and assumed the software he bought had expired. I, too, put my bet on that the shop s
              Message 6 of 30 , May 24, 2006
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                Jason Rush wrote:
                >Adrian, I work for Microsoft, and you are using my intellectual property

                Jason, I think Adrian was answering Bill's post about Select 6.0 and
                assumed the software he bought had expired. I, too, put my bet on that the
                shop's shady and put not-so-legal software on. Hope you can get your money
                back, Adrian.

                Lotta
              • Larry Hamilton
                Jason, I think there is a big difference between someone buying Microsoft software in good faith from what appears to be a legitimate vendor, and getting it
                Message 7 of 30 , May 24, 2006
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                  Jason,

                  I think there is a big difference between someone buying Microsoft
                  software in good faith from what appears to be a legitimate vendor, and
                  getting it from someone in a dark alley with a Rolex.

                  It is possible that the shop is small, and that their supplier is the
                  crook. As I understand it, it is the complexities of where the
                  counterfeits enter the supply chain is why Microsoft chose to
                  inconvenience users of illegal software. However, for those who thought
                  they did all the right things, and still do not have a legal copy, it is
                  a big pain in the backside.

                  Adrian should both go to the shop and complain to MS. I have legal
                  software, so my OS did not break when I installed the genuine patch.
                  What Adrian describes is more problematic than the blurb I read on the
                  MS site before I decided to install the genuine patch. MS admits that
                  users may buy in good faith and have a way to get a legal copy, but
                  harassing someone who got bit unawares just perpetuates MS as a bully.

                  Perhaps as an MS employee, and thus a representative of the company on
                  this public forum, you should familiarize yourself with how the MS
                  genuine program works, and post a link, email address, or phone number
                  he could call to fix his problem. That would be a more positive way to
                  support one of the many Microsoft users on this list.

                  Larry Hamilton
                  <><

                  Jason Rush wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Adrian, I work for Microsoft, and you are using my intellectual property
                  > without having paid my company and me for our labor in creating it. It's
                  > unfortunate if you paid money to a pirate for stolen property, but it's not
                  > Microsoft's fault, it's yours.
                  >
                  > Jason
                • Scott Fordin
                  Larry, I was going to reply to Jason s message in kind, but you have stated my sentiments in such a clear, constructive, and gracious way -- far better than
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 24, 2006
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                    Larry,

                    I was going to reply to Jason's message in kind, but you have
                    stated my sentiments in such a clear, constructive, and gracious
                    way -- far better than anything I would have come up with --
                    that no further exposition is necessary. Thank you!

                    Scott

                    Larry Hamilton wrote:
                    > Jason,
                    >
                    > I think there is a big difference between someone buying Microsoft
                    > software in good faith from what appears to be a legitimate vendor, and
                    > getting it from someone in a dark alley with a Rolex.
                    >
                    > It is possible that the shop is small, and that their supplier is the
                    > crook. As I understand it, it is the complexities of where the
                    > counterfeits enter the supply chain is why Microsoft chose to
                    > inconvenience users of illegal software. However, for those who thought
                    > they did all the right things, and still do not have a legal copy, it is
                    > a big pain in the backside.
                    >
                    > Adrian should both go to the shop and complain to MS. I have legal
                    > software, so my OS did not break when I installed the genuine patch.
                    > What Adrian describes is more problematic than the blurb I read on the
                    > MS site before I decided to install the genuine patch. MS admits that
                    > users may buy in good faith and have a way to get a legal copy, but
                    > harassing someone who got bit unawares just perpetuates MS as a bully.
                    >
                    > Perhaps as an MS employee, and thus a representative of the company on
                    > this public forum, you should familiarize yourself with how the MS
                    > genuine program works, and post a link, email address, or phone number
                    > he could call to fix his problem. That would be a more positive way to
                    > support one of the many Microsoft users on this list.
                    >
                    > Larry Hamilton
                    > <><
                    >
                    > Jason Rush wrote:
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Adrian, I work for Microsoft, and you are using my intellectual property
                    >> without having paid my company and me for our labor in creating it. It's
                    >> unfortunate if you paid money to a pirate for stolen property, but it's not
                    >> Microsoft's fault, it's yours.
                    >>
                    >> Jason
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Larry Hamilton
                    Scott, Thanks for the kudos. I just wish that I were as gracious when I m on the other end of constructive criticism. ;-) Larry
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 24, 2006
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                      Scott,

                      Thanks for the kudos.

                      I just wish that I were as gracious when I'm on the other end of
                      constructive criticism. ;-)

                      Larry

                      Scott Fordin wrote:
                      > Larry,
                      >
                      > I was going to reply to Jason's message in kind, but you have
                      > stated my sentiments in such a clear, constructive, and gracious
                      > way -- far better than anything I would have come up with --
                      > that no further exposition is necessary. Thank you!
                      >
                      > Scott
                    • Barry
                      Well said Larry. Microsoft doesn t endear it self at the best of times and a little bit of PR wouldn t go amiss. Take care. Barry UK ... From: Larry
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 25, 2006
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                        Well said Larry. Microsoft doesn't endear it self at the best of times and
                        a little bit of PR wouldn't go amiss.

                        Take care. Barry UK

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Larry Hamilton" <lmh@...>
                        To: <ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 12:32 AM
                        Subject: Re: [NTO] The not genuine message


                        Jason,

                        I think there is a big difference between someone buying Microsoft
                        software in good faith from what appears to be a legitimate vendor, and
                        getting it from someone in a dark alley with a Rolex.
                      • David Ash
                        I don t have a hologrammed CD. Dell for one don t supply them any more -- the operating system is delivered on a separate partition on the hard disk. There s
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 25, 2006
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                          I don't have a hologrammed CD. Dell for one don't supply them any more --
                          the operating system is delivered on a separate partition on the hard
                          disk.

                          There's a hologram stuck to the bottom of my laptop, though (until it
                          wears away).

                          D+

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Jason Rush" <rush@...>
                          To: <ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:47 AM
                          Subject: RE: [NTO] The not genuine message

                          A proper licensed copy of Windows comes on a CD with a hologram on the
                          front
                          that's quite distinctive, and if you don't have such a CD, it may be that
                          the store sold you a pirated copy.

                          Jason
                        • John Zeman
                          ... more -- ... That s one reason why I quit buying Dell computers. You lose the hard drive and you re out of luck as far as restoring the machine. John
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 25, 2006
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                            --- In ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com, David Ash <yho@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I don't have a hologrammed CD. Dell for one don't supply them any
                            more --
                            > the operating system is delivered on a separate partition on the hard
                            > disk.
                            >
                            > There's a hologram stuck to the bottom of my laptop, though (until it
                            > wears away).
                            >
                            > D+


                            That's one reason why I quit buying Dell computers. You lose the hard
                            drive and you're out of luck as far as restoring the machine.

                            John
                          • David Ash
                            ... Warning: There is a fault with your Innocent Until Proved Guilty policy management subsystem which could compromise your Company s public relations
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 25, 2006
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                              On Wed May 24, 2006 7:16 pm Jason Rush wrote:

                              > Adrian, I work for Microsoft, and you are using my
                              > intellectual property without having paid my company and me
                              > for our labor in creating it. It's unfortunate if you paid
                              > money to a pirate for stolen property, but it's not
                              > Microsoft's fault, it's yours.

                              > Jason

                              "Warning: There is a fault with your Innocent Until Proved Guilty policy
                              management subsystem which could compromise your Company's public
                              relations effort. Please visit the Microsoft site to check for the latest
                              updates."

                              D+
                            • Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
                              Thanks for the replies. The situation is that I bought the computer with the now clearly illegally installed operating system from RM Computers at 5 Market
                              Message 14 of 30 , May 25, 2006
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                                Thanks for the replies.

                                The situation is that I bought the computer with the now clearly illegally installed operating
                                system from RM Computers at 5 Market Place in Barton-on-Humber on 30th March 2005 and
                                as far as I was concerned I had no reason to think otherwise that the Windows XP Pro was
                                legal. I have found the receipt, and it is interesting because it does not mention the operating
                                system, nor does it mention the Microsoft Office that was installed too. So I might now
                                assume that that was illegal too.

                                Yesterday (Thursday) I went to the shop where he used to trade (closed and sold to a small
                                fabric retailer) and was told he works from Newtons Printers nearby. They said they bought
                                his stock from him and now give out his mobile number. I took this and after a voicemail
                                deposit I later rang again and spoke to him. He told me to do how to remove the offending
                                "May be a victim of Counterfeit" notices and slow speed of switching on - the countdown to
                                ungreying the "Resolve later" button - installed by the Microsoft update. He said the longer
                                term solution was that files can be backed up and he would put on Windows XP Home and
                                would cost me £70, costs him £65. He would not charge for his time. He now just deals with
                                existing customers and warranties. He said he did this with the operating system to keep
                                down the price. (Well we can all keep down the price by not paying for something!)

                                Now having given this some thought, this is not the solution is it, because he has installed
                                operating system software I thought was legal and is not, and therefore this surely needs
                                pursuing in a different way. It is a huge inconvenience to me to have to back up files and
                                data, not only this but I restructure the Start button shortcuts too. Presumably the Windows XP
                                Home would be legal, but this computer has been running Windows XP Pro.

                                So there are two issues here. One is the way I have been hoodwinked. The evidence is that I
                                was supplied with an operating system, and secondly his advertising. Unfortunately I did not
                                keep his advertising that described new and reconditioned computers with Windows XP
                                supplied. Mine was not new.

                                The second issue is that Microsoft have messed up my system on pain of reporting this
                                trader to them. Only if I pay Microsoft money or report this person can I have my computer
                                restored. Now it is not up to me to report him to Microsoft, nor is it right for my computer to be
                                messed up. It is up to Microsoft to deal with the rogue traders themselves. My contract is with
                                this trader, and I am going to go today to the local authority to pursue this further. Microsoft
                                have, or should have, a contract with him.

                                I have no difficulty with publishing (as indeed I am doing here) the details of this trader and
                                his business (that has ceased trading - and I only know his first name, Roger). What is wrong
                                is that Microsoft is using their dispute with such traders to affect retail customers' computers,
                                and it is an abuse of their privilege in sending automatic updates. This is a matter which I
                                have sent to my Member of Parliament and especially one of my Members of the European
                                Parliament to pass this behaviour on to the European Commission. I have received replies
                                from both. The European Commission deals with Microsoft issues because of the EU role
                                and the size and power of Microsoft, as demonstrated in this case.

                                Adrian Worsfold

                                http://www.pluralist.co.uk
                              • Jason Rush
                                Hi Adrian, Please let us know what the local authority advises. I m very interested. Since you apparently propose neither paying Microsoft for their operating
                                Message 15 of 30 , May 25, 2006
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                                  Hi Adrian,

                                  Please let us know what the local authority advises. I'm very interested.
                                  Since you apparently propose neither paying Microsoft for their operating
                                  system, nor turning in the pirate, yet you insist on continuing to use
                                  Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office, it seems unlikely that the EU and
                                  your MP will be willing to go to bat for you, but I could well be mistaken:
                                  We Americans are not as sophisticated as you in our understanding of right
                                  and wrong, and I may be missing some nuance.

                                  The question of what this person advertised is not relevant. He may have
                                  advertised and sold Windows and Office to someone, but if they are not on
                                  your receipt, he did not sell them to you.

                                  Why not just pay Microsoft for their software, or turn in the pirate. You
                                  are not the victim here, Microsoft is. It is incredibly generous of
                                  Microsoft to give you that second option; they did not have to do that.

                                  Jason




                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Behalf Of Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
                                  Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 6:06 AM
                                  To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [NTO] The not genuine message

                                  Thanks for the replies.

                                  The situation is that I bought the computer with the now clearly illegally
                                  installed operating system from RM Computers at 5 Market Place in
                                  Barton-on-Humber on 30th March 2005 and as far as I was concerned I had no
                                  reason to think otherwise that the Windows XP Pro was legal. I have found
                                  the receipt, and it is interesting because it does not mention the operating
                                  system, nor does it mention the Microsoft Office that was installed too. So
                                  I might now assume that that was illegal too.

                                  Yesterday (Thursday) I went to the shop where he used to trade (closed and
                                  sold to a small fabric retailer) and was told he works from Newtons Printers
                                  nearby. They said they bought his stock from him and now give out his mobile
                                  number. I took this and after a voicemail deposit I later rang again and
                                  spoke to him. He told me to do how to remove the offending "May be a victim
                                  of Counterfeit" notices and slow speed of switching on - the countdown to
                                  ungreying the "Resolve later" button - installed by the Microsoft update.
                                  He said the longer term solution was that files can be backed up and he
                                  would put on Windows XP Home and would cost me £70, costs him £65. He would
                                  not charge for his time. He now just deals with existing customers and
                                  warranties. He said he did this with the operating system to keep down the
                                  price. (Well we can all keep down the price by not paying for something!)

                                  Now having given this some thought, this is not the solution is it, because
                                  he has installed operating system software I thought was legal and is not,
                                  and therefore this surely needs pursuing in a different way. It is a huge
                                  inconvenience to me to have to back up files and data, not only this but I
                                  restructure the Start button shortcuts too. Presumably the Windows XP Home
                                  would be legal, but this computer has been running Windows XP Pro.

                                  So there are two issues here. One is the way I have been hoodwinked. The
                                  evidence is that I was supplied with an operating system, and secondly his
                                  advertising. Unfortunately I did not keep his advertising that described new
                                  and reconditioned computers with Windows XP supplied. Mine was not new.

                                  The second issue is that Microsoft have messed up my system on pain of
                                  reporting this trader to them. Only if I pay Microsoft money or report this
                                  person can I have my computer restored. Now it is not up to me to report him
                                  to Microsoft, nor is it right for my computer to be messed up. It is up to
                                  Microsoft to deal with the rogue traders themselves. My contract is with
                                  this trader, and I am going to go today to the local authority to pursue
                                  this further. Microsoft have, or should have, a contract with him.

                                  I have no difficulty with publishing (as indeed I am doing here) the details
                                  of this trader and his business (that has ceased trading - and I only know
                                  his first name, Roger). What is wrong is that Microsoft is using their
                                  dispute with such traders to affect retail customers' computers, and it is
                                  an abuse of their privilege in sending automatic updates. This is a matter
                                  which I have sent to my Member of Parliament and especially one of my
                                  Members of the European Parliament to pass this behaviour on to the European
                                  Commission. I have received replies from both. The European Commission deals
                                  with Microsoft issues because of the EU role and the size and power of
                                  Microsoft, as demonstrated in this case.

                                  Adrian Worsfold

                                  http://www.pluralist.co.uk




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                                • Mark Partous
                                  Hello John, Thursday, May 25, 2006, 1:51:16 PM, you wrote: JZ That s one reason why I quit buying Dell computers. You lose the hard JZ drive and you re out
                                  Message 16 of 30 , May 25, 2006
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                                    Hello John,

                                    Thursday, May 25, 2006, 1:51:16 PM, you wrote:

                                    JZ> That's one reason why I quit buying Dell computers. You lose the hard
                                    JZ> drive and you're out of luck as far as restoring the machine.

                                    The same applies to my Packard-Bell (the operating system is delivered on a
                                    separate partition on the hard disk).

                                    After I returned it to P-B, because the computer didn't boot any more, I
                                    have since made (several) images (with True Image) of the whole Hard Disk
                                    (all partitions, including the one with the Windows XP OS-installation
                                    software).

                                    Because there still were/are problems (seems to have improved after turning
                                    hyperthreading off in the BIOS) I also installed Xandros Pro 3 to find out if
                                    it was a hardware or software problem.

                                    The remaining problem (often, after booting the PC it "freezes", sometimes I
                                    have to restart 3 or 4 times - then, without identifiable reason it works and
                                    the freezing does not occur anymore for as long as the computer isn't turned
                                    off) does not seem to be OS-related (*).

                                    Now, should the HD crash, would that mean that restoring the image to a new
                                    Hard Disk also would generate an "illegal copy"-warning, even though it is a
                                    genuine one, simply because it is another Hard Disk? (**)

                                    If so, and though I have paid for XP, for that particular PC I think I would
                                    not go through the "hassle" to get a solution from Microsoft or Packard-Bell.
                                    I suppose I would only re-install Xandros, which has cost me less than XP
                                    (not even taking into account that I can install it on several computers
                                    (legally!). Furthermore, I can also run Microsoft Office on it...

                                    (*): Actually, the "freezing"-problem seems to be less frequent when running
                                    Xandros, but that may be a coincidence and/or impression.
                                    Why does the problem go away after restarting (several times)?
                                    It seems as if some part of the PC has to be warmed up?!?
                                    That sounds highly improbable, but I do not have another explanation...
                                    (**): Or would XP think it still is the original HD, because of the restoring
                                    of the image?

                                    --
                                    Best Wishes,
                                    Mark
                                    using The Bat! 3.80.06
                                  • Alan_C
                                    On Thursday 25 May 2006 10:18, Mark Partous wrote: [ . . ] ... To do a (google, for example) search on the likes of xp activation should turn up more info.
                                    Message 17 of 30 , May 25, 2006
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                                      On Thursday 25 May 2006 10:18, Mark Partous wrote:
                                      [ . . ]
                                      > Now, should the HD crash, would that mean that restoring the image to a new
                                      > Hard Disk also would generate an "illegal copy"-warning, even though it is
                                      > a genuine one, simply because it is another Hard Disk? (**)

                                      To do a (google, for example) search on the likes of "xp activation" should
                                      turn up more info.

                                      Very briefly, in your mentioned, the answer is: most likely not. And that is
                                      due to an "acumulation" sort of a charecteristic that's built in to the XP's
                                      activation components/monotoring. Within a certain time frame, you may
                                      acumulate up to near 3 maybe 4 of what are considered (by Microsoft)
                                      as "minor" hardware changes before XP will inactivate itself.

                                      There is also a time frame. For example, you cannot change motherboard -- at
                                      least not right away soon after the initial XP activation. But after some
                                      months (guessing perhaps 3 to 4) then you might able to because the slate
                                      gets wiped clean periodically, regularly at the mentioned time frame. This
                                      is so that (what Microsoft has determined to be) "normal" hardware pieces
                                      failing/being_replaced every so often will not trigger XP to inactivate
                                      itself.

                                      That's for a retail purchased XP just the OS itself that I can buy and then
                                      install on my computer.. Pack Bell and other major brands may pre activate
                                      the Win XP. But they likely have something along the lines of what the
                                      retail boxed OS as far as "continuing to remain activated so that the user
                                      doesn't get shut down.

                                      I'm with Win 2K. I decided not to and will not buy XP because I didn't want
                                      to risk my time having to phone Microsoft just so as to prove to them that I
                                      own something that I have already paid for and have a retail receipt for just
                                      because my motherboard or sufficient other hardware failed on me too early
                                      (prior to the 3 or so months before the slate gets wiped clean by Microsoft's
                                      database).

                                      And that's another matter, the matter of Microsoft's database keeping a file
                                      about my computer as to when what piece of hardware was changed on it during
                                      what time period. The detailed snapshot of my hardware profile.

                                      I'm on a (personal as in I will *not* buy it) strike against any software that
                                      snaps a hardware profile as a part of the required in order to activate so
                                      that the software can be used.

                                      *Yes* the developer gets to do it (and I can certainly empathise with them and
                                      see their reasons for doing it). No problem that they get to do it. But
                                      *yes* a prospective buyer has option to choose.

                                      I've been using open source Linux very much mostly anyways.

                                      I find it interesting that what was once a hobby for Linus Torvalds has
                                      evidently according to some news articles become "so competitive" or
                                      perhaps "a huge and thriving force" that Microsoft can no longer ignore it
                                      (as far as Microsoft's competition goes).

                                      --
                                      Alan.
                                    • Jody
                                      Hi All, I just wanted to say thanks to all of you that replied in a friendly adult like manner. I believe I have a pretty good handle on all the list members
                                      Message 18 of 30 , May 25, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi All,

                                        I just wanted to say thanks to all of you that replied in a
                                        friendly adult like manner. I believe I have a pretty good handle
                                        on all the list members that post even every now and then, why
                                        they do, their personalities, and so on, and etc. and... <g> I'm
                                        not going to point any fingers now, not that any need to be.

                                        You all, even me, could have jumped on board at anytime and
                                        started many flaming wars. Gee, if humans 'wanna' fight, and they
                                        don't have a reason they'll make one up. It's that simple. So,
                                        all my thanks again.

                                        Off to the last baseball game off the season. (I was an assistant
                                        coach (pitcher) and my son (10) plays first base. If we win this
                                        game we come in 2nd place in the division. :) The All-star
                                        (Allstar ?) game is Friday. My son and two other team members made
                                        it and will probably play the outfield since there are some
                                        really (!!!) good kids for the infield from the other teams
                                        picked.

                                        Proud daddy,
                                        Grampa Jody :)

                                        >To do a (google, for example) search on the likes of "xp activation" should
                                        >turn up more info.


                                        Happy Topics,
                                        Jody

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                                      • Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
                                        I d just like to say that having given this a lot of thought I have decided to report this trader to Microsoft and include an image of the invoice. Not only
                                        Message 19 of 30 , May 25, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I'd just like to say that having given this a lot of thought I have decided to report this trader to
                                          Microsoft and include an image of the invoice. Not only this, but I keep a diary and have
                                          seen the basics of conversations at the time, and how I was comparing the purchase I did
                                          eventually make with one I was considering at Tesco supermarket. The clear impression
                                          was that the Windows XP was preinstalled because in fact I asked about Windows 2000,
                                          thinking it was less subject to interference than Windows XP and he said no, they are all
                                          Windows XP now. But of course they weren't, were they in that if something is illegal, you can
                                          bung anything on. I have even sent his mobile phone number.

                                          Now in sending this to Microsoft I have also told them about my annoyance at what has been
                                          done to my machine, and hopefully temporary system restore measures to stop it. This has
                                          gone via email and I have not actually asked them to send a legal key. I include my
                                          suspicion that the MS Office is illegal too, and a friend told me the price of it and I'm thinking
                                          that I was comparing this with bundles on new machines.

                                          Today I acquired the telephone number of Trading Standards and will ring them. I am
                                          considering sueing at the small claims court. I think the invoice I received is crafty - he knew
                                          what he was doing but did not exactly inform me.

                                          I further tell Microsoft that I may have been duped even further, because the CD recording of
                                          data fails a lot even with a slower speed. So this could be quite comprehensive.

                                          Adrian Worsfold

                                          http://www.pluralist.co.uk
                                        • Barry
                                          Good for you mister and I wholeheartedly agree with your decision. Too often the little man gets kicked in the crutch and no one gives a damn but you stick
                                          Message 20 of 30 , May 26, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Good for you mister and I wholeheartedly agree with your decision. Too
                                            often the 'little man' gets kicked in the crutch and no one gives a damn but
                                            you stick with it. If you bite hard enough sooner or later you'll draw
                                            blood even though it may not happen in my lifetime <<LoL>>

                                            Take care. Barry UK

                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold" <change@...>
                                            To: <ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 2:49 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [NTO] The not genuine message


                                            I'd just like to say that having given this a lot of thought I have decided
                                            to report this trader to
                                            Microsoft and include an image of the invoice.
                                          • Mark Partous
                                            Hello Alan, Thursday, May 25, 2006, 11:15:56 PM, you wrote: A I m with Win 2K. I decided not to and will not buy XP because I didn t want A to risk my time
                                            Message 21 of 30 , May 26, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Hello Alan,

                                              Thursday, May 25, 2006, 11:15:56 PM, you wrote:

                                              A> I'm with Win 2K. I decided not to and will not buy XP because I didn't want
                                              A> to risk my time having to phone Microsoft just so as to prove to them that I
                                              A> own something that I have already paid for and have a retail receipt for just
                                              A> because my motherboard or sufficient other hardware failed on me too early
                                              A> (prior to the 3 or so months before the slate gets wiped clean by Microsoft's
                                              A> database).

                                              Thanks for your answer. It wasn't me that decided that XP was on two of the
                                              machines (the P-B laptop and one desktop). For business I still use Win 2K.
                                              All computers (that are compatible) have a Xandros partition too.

                                              --
                                              Best Wishes,
                                              Mark
                                              using The Bat! 3.80.06
                                            • Mobile Estimator2
                                              What ever happened to the customer is always right .... When MicroSoft came out they gave allot of software away and got my vote looks like the tables have
                                              Message 22 of 30 , May 26, 2006
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                What ever happened to the customer is always right .... When MicroSoft came
                                                out they gave allot of software away and got my vote looks like the tables
                                                have changed ... buying a Computer online is getting harder to do also ... I
                                                bought a Z83V online 2 months ago and I am still trying to get everything I
                                                ordered. Oh Well ... it's a brave new world ... Teach them they are animals
                                                and then wonder why they act like ... Monkey's

                                                Bill
                                              • Mobile Estimator2
                                                Good For You Jody .... Children need their faithers ...Bill
                                                Message 23 of 30 , May 26, 2006
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                                                  Good For You Jody .... Children need their faithers ...Bill
                                                • Alan_C
                                                  ... Side note: If on a major name brand PC (Pack Bell, HP, Dell, etc.) any the hardware failed too soon it most likely be the dealer s warranty issue anyways
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , May 26, 2006
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    On Friday 26 May 2006 01:49, Mark Partous wrote:
                                                    > Hello Alan,
                                                    >
                                                    > Thursday, May 25, 2006, 11:15:56 PM, you wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > A> I'm with Win 2K. I decided not to and will not buy XP because I didn't
                                                    > want A> to risk my time having to phone Microsoft just so as to prove to
                                                    > them that I A> own something that I have already paid for and have a retail
                                                    > receipt for just A> because my motherboard or sufficient other hardware
                                                    > failed on me too early A> (prior to the 3 or so months before the slate
                                                    > gets wiped clean by Microsoft's A> database).
                                                    >
                                                    > Thanks for your answer. It wasn't me that decided that XP was on two of the
                                                    > machines (the P-B laptop and one desktop). For business I still use Win 2K.
                                                    > All computers (that are compatible) have a Xandros partition too.

                                                    Side note: If on a major name brand PC (Pack Bell, HP, Dell, etc.) any the
                                                    hardware failed too soon it most likely be the dealer's warranty issue
                                                    anyways therefore the end user would not experience time spent becoming
                                                    involved with Microsoft.

                                                    But I always build my own PC. (that's 1 reason why the Linux) (I've Win 2K on
                                                    only 1 PC).

                                                    Normally it (xp activate) *probably* would not be anything big enough to
                                                    bother/concern over. But it's the principle of the possibility of my time
                                                    becoming involved. And, just for me to *attempt* to prove to MS over the
                                                    telephone that I own it and have the legal right to use it on thus_and_such
                                                    hardware.

                                                    MS has no way over the phone to discern whether someone being truthful or not
                                                    about *significant and premature/early hardware failure*.
                                                  • Alan_C
                                                    MS has no way over the phone to discern whether someone being truthful or not about *significant and premature/early hardware failure* Oop, I ment to cut that.
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , May 26, 2006
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      MS has no way over the phone to discern whether someone being truthful or not
                                                      about *significant and premature/early hardware failure*

                                                      Oop, I ment to cut that. Sorry.

                                                      But if someone untruthful then the ms INTERNET database will snuff em due to
                                                      two different hardware profiles on the one Xp.
                                                    • Chris Dart
                                                      We all like something for free if we can get it, but Jason and his colleagues put their time and effort into making the software and are entitled to be paid
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , May 29, 2006
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        We all like something for free if we can get it, but Jason and his colleagues put their time and effort into making the software and are entitled to be paid for it. The ones to swear at, it would seem, are the staff in the place where you bought it.

                                                        If I found someone stealing my property they would find I can be very ‘nasty’. In a manner of speaking, it would seem you have been stolen from, but you are cursing the wrong people!



                                                        Chris



                                                        ________________________________

                                                        From: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason Rush
                                                        Sent: 24 May 2006 21:16
                                                        To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: RE: [NTO] The not genuine message





                                                        Adrian, I work for Microsoft, and you are using my intellectual property
                                                        without having paid my company and me for our labor in creating it. It's
                                                        unfortunate if you paid money to a pirate for stolen property, but it's not
                                                        Microsoft's fault, it's yours.

                                                        Jason


                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                        Behalf Of Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
                                                        Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 8:32 AM
                                                        To: ntb-offtopic@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: [NTO] The not genuine message

                                                        Thanks for the information. The effect on the screen is nasty, plus they
                                                        cause a slow countdown to continue use.

                                                        The immediate solution (should it happen to anyone else) is to go to System
                                                        Update and go back before the invasion, then block automatic updates.

                                                        Microsoft has lost any goodwill I had towards it.

                                                        Adrian Worsfold

                                                        http://www.pluralist.co.uk



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                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • Chris Dart
                                                        If you buy a stolen car – not knowing it to be stolen – but later the police or whoever catch up with it, you will find you have lost the car and your
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , May 29, 2006
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          If you buy a stolen car – not knowing it to be stolen – but later the police or whoever catch up with it, you will find you have lost the car and your money and the only recourse is with the person who sold it to you. He will probably be in jail and you can whistle for your money. You have got a better deal from Microsoft, at least you get to keep what you bought, you just cannot update it.



                                                          Chris



                                                          ________________________________

                                                          From: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
                                                          Sent: 25 May 2006 15:06
                                                          To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Subject: Re: [NTO] The not genuine message



                                                          Thanks for the replies.

                                                          The situation is that I bought the computer with the now clearly illegally installed operating
                                                          system from RM Computers at 5 Market Place in Barton-on-Humber on 30th March 2005 and
                                                          as far as I was concerned I had no reason to think otherwise that the Windows XP Pro was
                                                          legal. I have found the receipt, and it is interesting because it does not mention the operating
                                                          system, nor does it mention the Microsoft Office that was installed too. So I might now
                                                          assume that that was illegal too.

                                                          Yesterday (Thursday) I went to the shop where he used to trade (closed and sold to a small
                                                          fabric retailer) and was told he works from Newtons Printers nearby. They said they bought
                                                          his stock from him and now give out his mobile number. I took this and after a voicemail
                                                          deposit I later rang again and spoke to him. He told me to do how to remove the offending
                                                          "May be a victim of Counterfeit" notices and slow speed of switching on - the countdown to
                                                          ungreying the "Resolve later" button - installed by the Microsoft update. He said the longer
                                                          term solution was that files can be backed up and he would put on Windows XP Home and
                                                          would cost me £70, costs him £65. He would not charge for his time. He now just deals with
                                                          existing customers and warranties. He said he did this with the operating system to keep
                                                          down the price. (Well we can all keep down the price by not paying for something!)

                                                          Now having given this some thought, this is not the solution is it, because he has installed
                                                          operating system software I thought was legal and is not, and therefore this surely needs
                                                          pursuing in a different way. It is a huge inconvenience to me to have to back up files and
                                                          data, not only this but I restructure the Start button shortcuts too. Presumably the Windows XP
                                                          Home would be legal, but this computer has been running Windows XP Pro.

                                                          So there are two issues here. One is the way I have been hoodwinked. The evidence is that I
                                                          was supplied with an operating system, and secondly his advertising. Unfortunately I did not
                                                          keep his advertising that described new and reconditioned computers with Windows XP
                                                          supplied. Mine was not new.

                                                          The second issue is that Microsoft have messed up my system on pain of reporting this
                                                          trader to them. Only if I pay Microsoft money or report this person can I have my computer
                                                          restored. Now it is not up to me to report him to Microsoft, nor is it right for my computer to be
                                                          messed up. It is up to Microsoft to deal with the rogue traders themselves. My contract is with
                                                          this trader, and I am going to go today to the local authority to pursue this further. Microsoft
                                                          have, or should have, a contract with him.

                                                          I have no difficulty with publishing (as indeed I am doing here) the details of this trader and
                                                          his business (that has ceased trading - and I only know his first name, Roger). What is wrong
                                                          is that Microsoft is using their dispute with such traders to affect retail customers' computers,
                                                          and it is an abuse of their privilege in sending automatic updates. This is a matter which I
                                                          have sent to my Member of Parliament and especially one of my Members of the European
                                                          Parliament to pass this behaviour on to the European Commission. I have received replies
                                                          from both. The European Commission deals with Microsoft issues because of the EU role
                                                          and the size and power of Microsoft, as demonstrated in this case.

                                                          Adrian Worsfold

                                                          http://www.pluralist.co.uk





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                                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        • Mark Partous
                                                          Hello Chris, Monday, May 29, 2006, 9:23:03 AM, you wrote: CD If you buy a stolen car – not knowing it to be stolen – but later the CD police or whoever
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , May 29, 2006
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Hello Chris,

                                                            Monday, May 29, 2006, 9:23:03 AM, you wrote:

                                                            CD> If you buy a stolen car – not knowing it to be stolen – but later the
                                                            CD> police or whoever catch up with it, you will find you have lost the car
                                                            CD> and your money and the only recourse is with the person who sold it to you.

                                                            I don't know where you are from, but in most "working" legal systems, this is
                                                            simply NOT true. If the stolen car was sold to someone who, in good faith,
                                                            bought it, he has become the legitimate owner. It is the original owner who
                                                            has to try to recuperate from the thief and/or the fence.

                                                            Without such a construction it would become very hazardous to buy anything at
                                                            all. That (even though in this case it protects the seller)also was the idea
                                                            behind the (no longer existing) system of Eurocheque; cheques accompanied by
                                                            the EC-card were guaranteed to be paid by the bank (max. ± 175 €), even if
                                                            they turned out to be stolen. If this would not have been the case, no merchant,
                                                            right in his mind, would have accepted such a cheque as payment.

                                                            Your comparison is not accurate, since, in this case, it was not the computer
                                                            that was stolen, but the operating system obviously wasn't paid for. Now,
                                                            I wouldn't know where to find the "operating system" of a car? :-)

                                                            Which does not mean I do not understand your point of view. Actually in this
                                                            case, the buyer should have asked for a proof of the legitimacy of the
                                                            software...

                                                            --
                                                            Best Wishes,
                                                            Mark
                                                            using The Bat! 3.80.06
                                                          • Jeff Scism
                                                            If the stolen car was sold to someone who, in good faith, bought it, he has become the legitimate owner. Here the person in possession would be arrested,
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , May 29, 2006
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              "

                                                              If the stolen car was sold to someone who, in good faith,
                                                              bought it, he has become the legitimate owner.

                                                              "

                                                              Here the person in possession would be arrested, and the car would be
                                                              returned to the original owner from whom it was stolen. "possession of
                                                              stolen property" is a crime.

                                                              There have been cases where stolen items have been returned decades later.

                                                              With Software you are dealing with Intellectual property, and like a
                                                              copyright, it isn't a physical property, but a property of creativity.

                                                              The value determination is based on the USE of the property, and that is
                                                              why you license the software, rather than sell it as a outright sale.

                                                              Buying a book doesn't make it's contents yours, even though you own the
                                                              medium it is presented in, the "book". You do not have the right to copy
                                                              and resell the copies, but you can sell the ONE copy you bought.

                                                              Highjacking software takes the commercial value away from the creator
                                                              and puts it in the hands of the pirate.

                                                              You can't expect the creator to "service" the pirated copies, and you
                                                              can expect them to tell you that you have no license to use them, no
                                                              matter that you may think they were genuine when you bought them.

                                                              Caveat Emptor. It is the buyer's responsibility to assure he/she is
                                                              buying the genuine article, it is after all their money and their
                                                              decision to purchase. When you buy a pig in a poke, you end up with the
                                                              poke.


                                                              ~~

                                                              Jeffery Scism,
                                                              USGenWeb Project Local Coordinator Rep
                                                              NC/NE region




                                                              Mark Partous wrote:

                                                              >Hello Chris,
                                                              >
                                                              >Monday, May 29, 2006, 9:23:03 AM, you wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              >CD> If you buy a stolen car – not knowing it to be stolen – but later the
                                                              >CD> police or whoever catch up with it, you will find you have lost the car
                                                              >CD> and your money and the only recourse is with the person who sold it to you.
                                                              >
                                                              >I don't know where you are from, but in most "working" legal systems, this is
                                                              >simply NOT true. If the stolen car was sold to someone who, in good faith,
                                                              >bought it, he has become the legitimate owner. It is the original owner who
                                                              >has to try to recuperate from the thief and/or the fence.
                                                              >
                                                              >Without such a construction it would become very hazardous to buy anything at
                                                              >all. That (even though in this case it protects the seller)also was the idea
                                                              >behind the (no longer existing) system of Eurocheque; cheques accompanied by
                                                              >the EC-card were guaranteed to be paid by the bank (max. ± 175 €), even if
                                                              >they turned out to be stolen. If this would not have been the case, no merchant,
                                                              >right in his mind, would have accepted such a cheque as payment.
                                                              >
                                                              >Your comparison is not accurate, since, in this case, it was not the computer
                                                              >that was stolen, but the operating system obviously wasn't paid for. Now,
                                                              >I wouldn't know where to find the "operating system" of a car? :-)
                                                              >
                                                              >Which does not mean I do not understand your point of view. Actually in this
                                                              >case, the buyer should have asked for a proof of the legitimacy of the
                                                              >software...
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                            • prog@lomascentral.com
                                                              I d regard the UK as a working legal system and it s true here. It s most often relevant in the case of stolen cars (simply because they re most commonly
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , May 29, 2006
                                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                                I'd regard the UK as a 'working' legal system and it's true here.

                                                                It's most often relevant in the case of stolen cars (simply because
                                                                they're most commonly stolen, sold on and found to be stolen) but it's
                                                                true for everything material.

                                                                You cannot be deprived of your ownership by theft.

                                                                Of course the discussion is about intellectual property rather than
                                                                material property.

                                                                Tim

                                                                Mark Partous wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                > Hello Chris,
                                                                >
                                                                > Monday, May 29, 2006, 9:23:03 AM, you wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                > CD> If you buy a stolen car – not knowing it to be stolen – but later the
                                                                > CD> police or whoever catch up with it, you will find you have lost the car
                                                                > CD> and your money and the only recourse is with the person who sold it to you.
                                                                >
                                                                > I don't know where you are from, but in most "working" legal systems, this is
                                                                > simply NOT true. If the stolen car was sold to someone who, in good faith,
                                                                > bought it, he has become the legitimate owner. It is the original owner who
                                                                > has to try to recuperate from the thief and/or the fence.
                                                                >
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