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Re: [NTO] RE: [NTB] Re: Intro

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  • John Mitchell
    Greg My guess is that many denizens of this board, including me, remember the days when 9.6kbs was the height of luxury. The fact that we still choose to use a
    Message 1 of 27 , Sep 1, 2005
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      Greg

      My guess is that many denizens of this board, including me, remember the
      days when 9.6kbs was the height of luxury. The fact that we still choose
      to use a text editor like NoteTab when most of the world prefers word
      processors is axiomatic. The majority of boards/forums these days are
      based on Apache/phpBB which is Open Source, tried and trusted, and
      ubiquitous for the simple reason that it works well. Diehards who prefer
      plain text can sign up to receive (plain text) appends by mail and
      resist the urge to browse in colour.

      "Chacun a son gout", as I recall being drummed into me as a child at school!

      All the best, John M

      Greg Chapman wrote:

      > snip..
      >
      > I guess that you come from a totally different culture to me, or you'd
      > also
      > not be top-posting and leaving a whole string of crud from previous posts
      > for me to download, forcing me to download many times more guff than
      > the ads
      > that Yahoo appends. (If I want to see the history of a thread on a mail
      > list, I just refer to the previous message. I don't need it continually
      > echoed back to me, appended at the end of a message.) I come that that
      > breed that of internet users who used to belong to FidoNet where you were
      > deeply conscious of the costs incurred by hobbyists in setting up their
      > bulletin boards and every minute on-line cost you an arm and a leg. I
      > still
      > frequently connect at 9.6kbps. Give me plain text mail any time!
    • Greg Chapman
      Hi John, ... Oh indeed! My first modem was 1200bps and I felt a late arrival when others were talking of their 300bps acoustic couplers! ... I don t know who
      Message 2 of 27 , Sep 1, 2005
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        Hi John,

        > My guess is that many denizens of this board, including me, remember the
        > days when 9.6kbs was the height of luxury.

        Oh indeed! My first modem was 1200bps and I felt a late arrival when others
        were talking of their 300bps acoustic couplers!

        > "Chacun a son gout", as I recall being drummed into me as a child
        > at school!

        I don't know who this Chacun is that has a son with gout. Sounds painful!
        But I'm sure you're right really!

        Greg
      • John Mitchell
        ... Touché Greg! I meant to add the English translation (each to his own) but your theory is *much* better. Regards, John M
        Message 3 of 27 , Sep 1, 2005
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          Greg Chapman wrote:

          > snip..
          >
          > I don't know who this Chacun is that has a son with gout. Sounds painful!
          > But I'm sure you're right really!
          >
          > snip..

          Touché Greg! I meant to add the English translation (each to his own)
          but your theory is *much* better.

          Regards, John M
        • David Smart
          They had 300 baud? I remember when I started timesharing on a KSR 33 teletype with 110 baud. :-) (Well actually, I started long before that. Punched card
          Message 4 of 27 , Sep 1, 2005
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            They had 300 baud?

            I remember when I started timesharing on a KSR 33 teletype with 110 baud. :-)

            (Well actually, I started long before that. Punched card storage for programs was an improvement on my first computer job. Bloomin' big slate panels about a metre square with the programs set up with thousands of wires whose plugs would occasionally pop out of the board. Gave a whole new meaning to visual inspection of a program - or maybe this was where the term came from.)

            Dave S

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Greg Chapman
            To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 12:32 AM
            Subject: RE: [NTO] RE: [NTB] Re: Intro


            Hi John,

            > My guess is that many denizens of this board, including me, remember the
            > days when 9.6kbs was the height of luxury.

            Oh indeed! My first modem was 1200bps and I felt a late arrival when others
            were talking of their 300bps acoustic couplers!

            > "Chacun a son gout", as I recall being drummed into me as a child
            > at school!

            I don't know who this Chacun is that has a son with gout. Sounds painful!
            But I'm sure you're right really!

            Greg




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          • abairheart
            ... baud. :-) ... for programs was an improvement on my first computer job. What s this, i went slower than you did ? I started out switching an PDP 8 one
            Message 5 of 27 , Sep 3, 2005
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              --- In ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com, "David Smart" <smartware@o...>
              wrote:
              > They had 300 baud?
              >
              > I remember when I started timesharing on a KSR 33 teletype with 110
              baud. :-)
              >
              > (Well actually, I started long before that. Punched card storage
              for programs was an improvement on my first computer job.


              What's this, "i went slower than you did" ?

              I started out switching an PDP 8 one bit at a time, using the front
              panel switches ;-)

              Just kidding.

              Just what was this thread about, anyway?

              Abair
            • David Smart
              You had switches? I had to get out of bed at 4 am, build my computer from scratch using firewood .... sorry, far too much Monty Python. I think this started
              Message 6 of 27 , Sep 3, 2005
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                You had switches? I had to get out of bed at 4 am, build my computer from scratch using firewood .... sorry, far too much Monty Python.

                I think this started as an intro from a new member, who has undoubtedly come to the conclusion that we're all a bunch of loonies and has run away screaming. :-)

                Dave S

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: abairheart
                To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 5:18 AM
                Subject: [NTO] RE: [NTB] Re: Intro


                --- In ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com, "David Smart" <smartware@o...>
                wrote:
                > They had 300 baud?
                >
                > I remember when I started timesharing on a KSR 33 teletype with 110
                baud. :-)
                >
                > (Well actually, I started long before that. Punched card storage
                for programs was an improvement on my first computer job.


                What's this, "i went slower than you did" ?

                I started out switching an PDP 8 one bit at a time, using the front
                panel switches ;-)

                Just kidding.

                Just what was this thread about, anyway?

                Abair


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Greg Chapman
                Hi Abair, ... It started on the main list with a call to have a proper discussion board rather than a YahooGroup. And I said No Never! Give me YahooGroup s
                Message 7 of 27 , Sep 4, 2005
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                  Hi Abair,

                  > > (Well actually, I started long before that. Punched card storage
                  > for programs was an improvement on my first computer job.
                  >
                  >
                  > What's this, "i went slower than you did" ?

                  It started on the main list with a call to have a "proper" discussion board
                  rather than a YahooGroup. And I said No Never! Give me YahooGroup's plain
                  text e-mail and a decent e-mail client any day. It seems more appropriate
                  for support of a plain text editor and I just don't want the graphical
                  overhead and lack on off-line reading that message boards imply."

                  Greg
                • David R. Hanson
                  Hi Greg, My apologies for the delay, just saw your reply now... ... board? That s a good point. lots of free BBSs are quite poor. I made the mistake of
                  Message 8 of 27 , Sep 6, 2005
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                    Hi Greg,

                    My apologies for the delay, just saw your reply now...

                    --- In ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Chapman" <greg@e...> wrote:
                    > > I don't know what message boards you've frequented in the past, but
                    > > they must have been poorly run.
                    >
                    > Or maybe just took advantage of being free for the provider of that
                    board?

                    That's a good point. lots of free BBSs are quite poor. I made the
                    mistake of trying to teach a class using EZboard, and then the
                    "backups" the provided proved non-existant once a hacker broke in.

                    No question, the only way to do a BBS is to use one of the excellent
                    open-source products that John alludes to.

                    > >The worries you share (bloated
                    > > graphics, ads, etc.) are easily surmountable.
                    >
                    > The only methods I know of all involve the hassle of reconfiguring your
                    > browser, which then has to be re-configured for every other site you
                    visit.

                    Eh? First, one can easily set up the BBS to be "lean and mean", so no
                    graphics bloat to begin with.

                    But then again, if you're against ads and graphics, why would you want
                    to ENABLE this overhead on other web sites anyway?


                    > In any case, all these complaints:
                    >
                    > > there is no efficient way to see what different topics
                    > > have been posted, or to follow a thread, or to send private messages,
                    > > or to cooperatively build FAQs, or do see if other questions have been
                    > > asked and answered.
                    >
                    > are dealt with by a decent mail client.

                    Do tell?

                    There's no way to send private messages with an email client, and no
                    way to have multiple parties edit a single post (as in a faq), since
                    it's an inherently non-editable medium (once it's sent, it's gone.)

                    This is a major liabilty when the point of the discussion is to get
                    up-to-date info on a product like notetab. It also means MORE junk to
                    sort through, not less...with an email based discussion board, I'm
                    dealing with a new FAQ every x days, having to download and delete
                    every time.

                    Granted, if one has a threaded email client, one can follow a
                    thread--but ONLY if that person has the other messages already
                    downloaded or available. With a BBS, the entire history is right
                    there in one efficient, easy to read screen (or more than one if the
                    thread is long and it's broken up into many pages.)

                    I'm not saying that an email-based discussion modality offers NO
                    advantages. But on the factors I just mentioned, it really isn't a
                    close call.

                    >Remember this is primarily a mail
                    > list. The YahooGroups web interface should only ever be regarded as a
                    > "back-up", if something has gone wrong with your normal access.

                    Agreed. But see above--this has all the limitations of that mode for
                    n-person communication.


                    > > currently, we have to put up with whatever
                    > > overhead and bloat that yahoo wants to send our way.
                    >
                    > Hand-crafting the necessary scripts to run a private board, not only
                    costs
                    > money but, I fancy, is outside of Jody's skill set. All free boards
                    I know
                    > will be just as graphic ad laden as YahooGroups.

                    As John indicates, no hand-crafting is necessary. There are several
                    FREE, open-source, turnkey products out there that do a remarkable
                    job. Of course it's up to Jody what he WISHES to do, but given his
                    skills RE notepad, putting together a lean web BBS would be child's
                    play for him.

                    And again, I'd vote against having ANY third-party provided solution:
                    Yahoo groups, ezboard, whatever. A simple free BBS hosted on his
                    currently existing website would do very nicely.

                    > I suspect you get. I also get the benefit of being able to read
                    everything
                    > off-line. I can't do that on any web-based service.

                    I concede that the ease of reading off-line is indeed the MAIN
                    advantage of an uneditable, static, email-type discussion mode.

                    However, there are a number of utilities that allow you to save BBSs
                    locally to your hard drive in a painless, automated fastion.
                    Admittedly, I don't have much experience with these utilities, because
                    I am blessed with an "always-on" broadband connection. I'm told that
                    they work quite well, however.


                    > I guess that you come from a totally different culture to me, or
                    you'd also
                    > not be top-posting and leaving a whole string of crud from previous
                    posts
                    > for me to download, forcing me to download many times more guff than
                    the ads
                    > that Yahoo appends. (If I want to see the history of a thread on a mail
                    > list, I just refer to the previous message. I don't need it continually
                    > echoed back to me, appended at the end of a message.)

                    My sincere apologies if I gave offense here...

                    Ironcially, I was trying to include the pertinent history in order to
                    make it easier for you and other readers...not to make it harder.
                    (Sure, you COULD search through your archieve of emails to trace the
                    post history on this, but I assumed that the few seconds it takes to
                    download the text at once would be a more than fair tradeoff for the
                    added convenience...even at 9600 bps!

                    I come that that
                    > breed that of internet users who used to belong to FidoNet where you
                    were
                    > deeply conscious of the costs incurred by hobbyists in setting up their
                    > bulletin boards and every minute on-line cost you an arm and a leg.

                    I very much respect that--sincerely. I've been a ham radio op since
                    age 11, and get the "minimizing costs" point.

                    OTOH, even as bandwidth continues to grows rapidly, available time
                    does not. I value modes of communication that help me find the
                    current version of just what I need, swiftly, efficiently, and
                    reliably. That's what a good BBS offers.
                  • loro
                    ... Gosh! I do that all the time! ;-) Jokes aside, I like message boards and I like mailing lists. But, these lists are Jody s private effort and Jody likes
                    Message 9 of 27 , Sep 6, 2005
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                      David R. Hanson wrote:
                      >There's no way to send private messages with an email client

                      Gosh! I do that all the time! ;-)

                      Jokes aside, I like message boards and I like mailing lists. But, these
                      lists are Jody's private effort and Jody likes mailing lists. Period.
                      There's nothing that stops you, me or anyone else from putting up a board
                      to discuss Notetab. That was sort of what Jody did with the lists, long
                      before he worked for Fookes. I won't do it because I know everyone will
                      stay here anyway.

                      Point is, the lists are Jody's. Not Fookes Software's.

                      Lotta
                    • David R. Hanson
                      ... Fair enough...as per the subject of this debate, why do you like mailing lists? ... I didn t realize that these had no connection at all to Fookes, and
                      Message 10 of 27 , Sep 6, 2005
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                        --- In ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com, loro <loro-spam01-@t...> wrote:
                        > Jokes aside, I like message boards and I like mailing lists.

                        Fair enough...as per the subject of this debate, why do you like
                        mailing lists?

                        >But, these
                        > lists are Jody's private effort and Jody likes mailing lists. Period.

                        I didn't realize that these had no connection at all to Fookes, and
                        were strictly Jody's effort. Thank you for clarifying that...

                        Certainly, I respect our host's wishes, and do not mean to antagonize.
                        I would respectfully suggest that he consider the benefits that a
                        lean and mean message board would provide.

                        > There's nothing that stops you, me or anyone else from putting up a
                        board
                        > to discuss Notetab. That was sort of what Jody did with the lists, long
                        > before he worked for Fookes. I won't do it because I know everyone will
                        > stay here anyway.

                        Indeed, as you suggest, there is nothing stopping us from starting a
                        web BBS but the preferences of the community--and that is everything
                        in this context, as you response implies. If Jody or a plurality of
                        other forum members expressed an interest, I'd gladly donate both the
                        web space and the software myself.

                        > Point is, the lists are Jody's. Not Fookes Software's.

                        OK...but is it fair to say that this is the de facto place where one
                        receives ongoing (i.e. updated and interactive) support for Notetab?

                        If it is, and if Jody is currently working for Fookes, then if I were
                        in his position, I would try to accommodate the preferences and needs
                        of my paying customers.

                        Please note, this is NOT to imply that I'm griping about what is here.
                        While I don't much care for groups for reasons discussed, I'm VERY
                        grateful to him and the rest of you for the discussion you offer on
                        this excellent software product.

                        Cheers, Dave
                      • loro
                        ... Why not? As said, I like both. I don t know if I have a preference really. For groups I tend to follow closely, I think I *maybe* prefer mailing lists
                        Message 11 of 27 , Sep 6, 2005
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                          David R. Hanson wrote:
                          > > Jokes aside, I like message boards and I like mailing lists.
                          >Fair enough...as per the subject of this debate, why do you like
                          >mailing lists?

                          Why not? As said, I like both. I don't know if I have a preference really.
                          For groups I tend to follow closely, I think I *maybe* prefer mailing lists
                          because it's faster to skim through the posts. I can save posts and search
                          them later with any tool I want and so on. I'm not following the Notatab
                          lists that close anymore though. Guess I'm just used to them being lists. I
                          think if they were a board I would probably never look in some categories
                          (sorry!) and miss a lot. Now I at least see everything flicker by. But
                          that's me. Generally speaking I'm on about as many lists as boards. I take
                          them as they come.

                          > >But, these
                          > > lists are Jody's private effort and Jody likes mailing lists. Period.
                          >
                          >I didn't realize that these had no connection at all to Fookes, and
                          >were strictly Jody's effort. Thank you for clarifying that...

                          Thought you didn't. No one does. I'm really sorry if I sounded harsh. I
                          didn't mean to say "period" to you. I meant that's Jody's take on it. This
                          has been up before. ;-)

                          >OK...but is it fair to say that this is the de facto place where one
                          >receives ongoing (i.e. updated and interactive) support for Notetab?

                          I think that's about it. The lists act as support lists but they are not.
                          Hey, this is like politics!

                          Lotta
                        • David Smart
                          The reason I like mailing lists is that the information arrives with the rest of my e-mail. I can then filter/divert it as needed, and according to which of
                          Message 12 of 27 , Sep 6, 2005
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                            The reason I like mailing lists is that the information arrives with the rest of my e-mail. I can then filter/divert it as needed, and according to which of my e-mail devices I receive it on.

                            I've also got one of my computers linked to several Internet discussion groups. I attend to these much less often. My biggest annoyance with these is that I have only been able to achieve satisfactory access when I link only from one PC. If I link to the same groups from multiple PCs, they all update independently, so I've got to scan them all to mark messages/threads as read. As I use two different PCs at home, plus a laptop of my own, plus customer computers on two sites, plus an IPAQ (for mail, not Internet groups), keeping the Internet groups up-to-date would be impossible. (With mailing lists, I only get one copy of the message - on the machine I'm using at the moment, including the IPAQ.)

                            As co-owner / co-moderator of five Yahoo groups, I find that they work pretty well. The price is good too. :-)

                            Dave S

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: David R. Hanson
                            To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 6:45 AM
                            Subject: [NTO] BBS vs. Yahoo Groups debate con't (was [NTB] Re: Intro)


                            --- In ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com, loro <loro-spam01-@t...> wrote:
                            > Jokes aside, I like message boards and I like mailing lists.

                            Fair enough...as per the subject of this debate, why do you like
                            mailing lists?

                            >But, these
                            > lists are Jody's private effort and Jody likes mailing lists. Period.

                            I didn't realize that these had no connection at all to Fookes, and
                            were strictly Jody's effort. Thank you for clarifying that...

                            Certainly, I respect our host's wishes, and do not mean to antagonize.
                            I would respectfully suggest that he consider the benefits that a
                            lean and mean message board would provide.

                            > There's nothing that stops you, me or anyone else from putting up a
                            board
                            > to discuss Notetab. That was sort of what Jody did with the lists, long
                            > before he worked for Fookes. I won't do it because I know everyone will
                            > stay here anyway.

                            Indeed, as you suggest, there is nothing stopping us from starting a
                            web BBS but the preferences of the community--and that is everything
                            in this context, as you response implies. If Jody or a plurality of
                            other forum members expressed an interest, I'd gladly donate both the
                            web space and the software myself.

                            > Point is, the lists are Jody's. Not Fookes Software's.

                            OK...but is it fair to say that this is the de facto place where one
                            receives ongoing (i.e. updated and interactive) support for Notetab?

                            If it is, and if Jody is currently working for Fookes, then if I were
                            in his position, I would try to accommodate the preferences and needs
                            of my paying customers.

                            Please note, this is NOT to imply that I'm griping about what is here.
                            While I don't much care for groups for reasons discussed, I'm VERY
                            grateful to him and the rest of you for the discussion you offer on
                            this excellent software product.

                            Cheers, Dave




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                          • David R. Hanson
                            Thanks for replying Dave, ... the rest of my e-mail. I can then filter/divert it as needed, and according to which of my e-mail devices I receive it on. That
                            Message 13 of 27 , Sep 6, 2005
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                              Thanks for replying Dave,

                              --- In ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com, "David Smart" <smartware@o...> wrote:
                              > The reason I like mailing lists is that the information arrives with
                              the rest of my e-mail. I can then filter/divert it as needed, and
                              according to which of my e-mail devices I receive it on.

                              That makes sense. I gather your email devices aren't web accessible?
                              I can see how a person who uses such devices regularly would prefer a
                              group/email format.

                              > I've also got one of my computers linked to several Internet
                              discussion groups. I attend to these much less often. My biggest
                              annoyance with these is that I have only been able to achieve
                              satisfactory access when I link only from one PC. If I link to the
                              same groups from multiple PCs, they all update independently, so I've
                              got to scan them all to mark messages/threads as read.


                              This problem should be eliminated if you log in to the forum, rather
                              than just review it as a guest. That way, what you've read, sorted,
                              marked, etc. will be available.

                              Moreover, I think this argues FOR a BBS. With groups/email, your web
                              devices won't be synchronized like a BBS account would be. IMAP email
                              would help, but would eliminate the problem.
                            • prog@lomascentral.com
                              I think you re missing one of the major points. I subscribe to a fairly large number of mailing lists (about a dozen at the moment) and get a lot of emails on
                              Message 14 of 27 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                I think you're missing one of the major points.

                                I subscribe to a fairly large number of mailing lists (about a dozen at
                                the moment) and get a lot of emails on them (between 1000 and 2000 per day).

                                Now, of those emails only a small number are actually of interest and
                                those are filtered out to folders (by my email software) that I can see
                                immediately are of potential interest. I can then scan the others
                                quickly to see if anything looks interesting when I have the time.

                                Using a web based forum would require me to log in to a dozen different
                                web forums, scan a multitude of listings and take a considerable time
                                daily. I don't have the time (or inclination) to spend an hour or more a
                                day looking for items of interest rather than the minute or two it takes
                                me today.

                                Mailing lists are inherently more efficient for my requirements, my
                                reaction if it were to move to a web forum would be to simply stop
                                reading it.

                                Tim

                                David R. Hanson wrote:
                                > This problem should be eliminated if you log in to the forum, rather
                                > than just review it as a guest. That way, what you've read, sorted,
                                > marked, etc. will be available.
                                >
                                > Moreover, I think this argues FOR a BBS. With groups/email, your web
                                > devices won't be synchronized like a BBS account would be. IMAP email
                                > would help, but would eliminate the problem.
                              • David R. Hanson
                                Hi Tim, The issue you raise is efficiency RE scanning what would be of interest to you. I m very sympathetic to this concern, and agree that it should be a
                                Message 15 of 27 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                  Hi Tim,

                                  The issue you raise is efficiency RE scanning what would be of
                                  interest to you. I'm very sympathetic to this concern, and agree that
                                  it should be a major consideration.

                                  I think you exaggerate the effort involved in scanning a
                                  well-organized web forum.

                                  First, you don't need to log in every time--cookies take care of this,
                                  and logging isn't even required at all unless you want a custom view
                                  of the forum (which itself increases efficiency.)

                                  Second, since a web forum gives you a top-level view of entire set of
                                  threads, organized by subject, it takes only seconds to scan the
                                  entire list of new subjects in the forum. MUCH quicker than having to
                                  look through emails, which not threaded in the same way, or grouped by
                                  subject.


                                  Aside from this, you discount the need to review and regularly delete
                                  thousands of emails. With a web forum, there's no need to this
                                  EVER--just do a search. And once you delete the emails you think
                                  won't be interesting, they are gone. (You could return and search
                                  yahoo groups too, but a web forum allows much more precision and ease
                                  here.)


                                  Look, I want to stress that I respect the wishes of the apparent
                                  majority here to continue using a listserve. If most notetab users
                                  feel this way, that's a great reason not to change. I just believe
                                  that there would be far more utility in a web-based solution.
                                • loro
                                  ... They are if you use an email client that supports threading. ... They are if sensible subject lines are used. ... So save them. ... And when the forum is
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                    David R. Hanson wrote:
                                    >MUCH quicker than having to
                                    >look through emails, which not threaded in the same way

                                    They are if you use an email client that supports threading.

                                    >or grouped by subject.

                                    They are if sensible subject lines are used.

                                    >Aside from this, you discount the need to review and regularly delete
                                    >thousands of emails.

                                    So save them.

                                    > With a web forum, there's no need to this
                                    >EVER--just do a search.

                                    And when the forum is long gone? Then what do you do?

                                    > And once you delete the emails you think
                                    >won't be interesting, they are gone.

                                    Not if you save them. ;-)

                                    Lotta
                                  • Tony McClelland
                                    ... I have so far read this thread with interest but from the sidelines. I have seen similar threads in other mailing lists I am subscribed to. I just want to
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                      > The issue you raise is efficiency RE scanning what would be of interest
                                      > to you. I'm very sympathetic to this concern, and agree that it should
                                      > be a major consideration.
                                      >
                                      > I think you exaggerate the effort involved in scanning a well-organized
                                      > web forum.
                                      >
                                      > First, you don't need to log in every time--cookies take care of this,
                                      > and logging isn't even required at all unless you want a custom view of
                                      > the forum (which itself increases efficiency.)
                                      >
                                      > Second, since a web forum gives you a top-level view of entire set of
                                      > threads, organized by subject, it takes only seconds to scan the entire
                                      > list of new subjects in the forum. MUCH quicker than having to look
                                      > through emails, which not threaded in the same way, or grouped by
                                      > subject.
                                      >
                                      > Aside from this, you discount the need to review and regularly delete
                                      > thousands of emails. With a web forum, there's no need to this EVER--
                                      > just do a search. And once you delete the emails you think won't be
                                      > interesting, they are gone. (You could return and search yahoo groups
                                      > too, but a web forum allows much more precision and ease here.)
                                      >
                                      > Look, I want to stress that I respect the wishes of the apparent
                                      > majority here to continue using a listserve. If most notetab users feel
                                      > this way, that's a great reason not to change. I just believe that there
                                      > would be far more utility in a web-based solution.

                                      I have so far read this thread with interest but from the sidelines. I
                                      have seen similar threads in other mailing lists I am subscribed to. I
                                      just want to add my vote for things to stay the way they are. The
                                      convenience and long-term usefulness as a resource of a mailing list is
                                      great for me. I use Becky! as my mail client, which has very strong
                                      support for mailing lists, including threading the messages, and a great
                                      search function. I don't delete emails from mailing lists (unless they
                                      are either spam or simple "me too" noise) but keep them knowing that I
                                      will need to search for things there in future. I can find a message
                                      about some topic of interest quickly even in a list of thousands of
                                      messages, and then follow the thread again to see what advice came up.
                                      Sure you can do that with a web interface, but if you access the
                                      internet through a dial-up connection (as I do) it is much quicker to
                                      have the archive available offline. I would hate to try to do that with
                                      an email client that didn't thread discussions though. Or one that had
                                      rather limited searching. If you haven't tried Becky! before, please do
                                      so, you might never go back to web-based forums.

                                      Best,
                                      --
                                      Tony
                                    • David R. Hanson
                                      Hi Lotta, People don t generally use sensible subjects on email lists (see this forum as an example). Also, email clients don t have nearly the threading
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                        Hi Lotta,

                                        People don't generally use "sensible subjects" on email lists (see
                                        this forum as an example). Also, email clients don't have nearly the
                                        threading capabilities of a even a rudimentary forum software. This
                                        makes sense, because email was never designed to be used for group
                                        discussion (unlike BBS software), and most people wouldn't know how to
                                        use it this way.

                                        As for saving, this is easily (and more efficiently) done by saving
                                        the forum pages that interest you. Any decent forum software has the
                                        functionality for this.

                                        For people who aren't familiar with the kind of thing I'm talking
                                        about, checkout http://www.fatwallet.com/c/52/ as a typical example
                                        (software isn't especially good, but the forum isn't bad.)
                                      • loro
                                        ... On most lists I m on they do. I don t think it s that bad here either. The excessive quoting is annoying though (couldn t refrain from THAT! Hee-hee! ;-o))
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                          At 21:42 2005-09-07, David R. Hanson wrote:
                                          >People don't generally use "sensible subjects" on email lists (see
                                          >this forum as an example).

                                          On most lists I'm on they do. I don't think it's that bad here either. The
                                          excessive quoting is annoying though (couldn't refrain from THAT! Hee-hee!
                                          ;-o))

                                          > Also, email clients don't have nearly the
                                          >threading capabilities of a even a rudimentary forum software.

                                          I'd say it's the other way around.

                                          >As for saving, this is easily (and more efficiently) done by saving
                                          >the forum pages that interest you. Any decent forum software has the
                                          >functionality for this.

                                          Come on! You can't mean that would be quicker? Besides, how does this
                                          differ from deleting some of the lists posts? What's not saved will one day
                                          be gone.

                                          >For people who aren't familiar with the kind of thing I'm talking
                                          >about, checkout http://www.fatwallet.com/c/52/ as a typical example
                                          >(software isn't especially good, but the forum isn't bad.)

                                          I see a typical flat board, not a threaded one.

                                          ????????
                                          Lotta
                                        • David R. Hanson
                                          Tony, Thanks for your two cents! Sorry, didn t see you comment above (the limits of using a group interface, alas) :) I have not heard of Becky!, that sounds
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                            Tony,

                                            Thanks for your two cents! Sorry, didn't see you comment above (the
                                            limits of using a group interface, alas) :)

                                            I have not heard of Becky!, that sounds very interesting... It's the
                                            product at http://www.rimarts.co.jp/becky.htm , correct?

                                            I try to use open source stuff, and am currently using Thuderbird. It
                                            does a pretty good job of threading, and an increasingly good job of
                                            searching.


                                            Lotta,

                                            > > Also, email clients don't have nearly the
                                            > >threading capabilities of a even a rudimentary forum software.
                                            >
                                            > I'd say it's the other way around.

                                            Huh? I'm not sure what basis you have for this assertion...

                                            Look at that Fatwallet forum. Everything is threaded from the start.
                                            Ratings are available to help distinguish helpful from unhelpful
                                            threads. None of that exists, or even COULD exist that does this....

                                            > >As for saving, this is easily (and more efficiently) done by saving
                                            > >the forum pages that interest you. Any decent forum software has the
                                            > >functionality for this.
                                            >
                                            > Come on! You can't mean that would be quicker?

                                            I didn't say it would be quicker to save, just more efficient, because
                                            you can save each PAGE/DISCUSSION you want to at a time, with no need
                                            to go through and delete stuff you don't want to keep.

                                            > >For people who aren't familiar with the kind of thing I'm talking
                                            > >about, checkout http://www.fatwallet.com/c/52/ as a typical example
                                            > >(software isn't especially good, but the forum isn't bad.)
                                            >
                                            > I see a typical flat board, not a threaded one.

                                            Each topic is a "thread". That's the organizing metaphor for the
                                            entire board.


                                            I'm beginning to think that most of the respondents in this discussion
                                            are quite saavy RE their email clients, and perhaps less savvy RE how
                                            threaded conferencing/BBS/discussion boards can be used.

                                            This is hardly surprising, given that a "yahoo group" readers will
                                            self select among those (in this case, notetab users) who like
                                            communicating in this manner.

                                            In any case, if the responses so far are typical, then "the people
                                            have spoken", ratifying the status quo. I like notetab enough and
                                            value your all's experience enough to accept such a verdict, even
                                            though I disagree with it. :)
                                          • Jason W.
                                            David, I m not Lotta, but..... ... A good portion of the web forums I ve used thread by subject only. I haven t seen where I can thread by date or author. Even
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                              David,

                                              I'm not Lotta, but.....

                                              On 9/7/05, David R. Hanson <posts.yahoo@...> wrote:

                                              > Lotta,
                                              >
                                              > > > Also, email clients don't have nearly the
                                              > > >threading capabilities of a even a rudimentary forum software.
                                              > >
                                              > > I'd say it's the other way around.
                                              >
                                              > Huh? I'm not sure what basis you have for this assertion...

                                              A good portion of the web forums I've used thread by subject only. I
                                              haven't seen where I can thread by date or author. Even Microsft
                                              Outlook - the bane of email clients - can thread by author, date,
                                              subject, conversation and a lot of other things.

                                              > Look at that Fatwallet forum. Everything is threaded from the start.
                                              > Ratings are available to help distinguish helpful from unhelpful
                                              > threads. None of that exists, or even COULD exist that

                                              But with email, we really don't need that. For example, I'm on a list
                                              that mostly is idle chit chat and not anything I'd want to read, but I
                                              do have a "list" of posters that post interresting stuff. So on that
                                              list, I just delete anytthing that isn't interesting.

                                              > I didn't say it would be quicker to save, just more efficient, because
                                              > you can save each PAGE/DISCUSSION you want to at a time, with no need
                                              > to go through and delete stuff you don't want to keep.

                                              But then I'd have a whole thread I'd have to wade thru to find that
                                              one little tidbit I wanted to save - rather than saving only that one
                                              person's message and canning the others.

                                              > > >For people who aren't familiar with the kind of thing I'm talking
                                              > > >about, checkout http://www.fatwallet.com/c/52/ as a typical example
                                              > > >(software isn't especially good, but the forum isn't bad.)
                                              > >
                                              > > I see a typical flat board, not a threaded one.
                                              >
                                              > Each topic is a "thread". That's the organizing metaphor for the
                                              > entire board.

                                              I think Lotta was referring to who replied to whom in a thread. A
                                              medium isn't conversationally threaded unless you can immediately tell
                                              that just from an overview list of messages.

                                              + John posted at 2 PM
                                              + Sally replied at 3 PM
                                              + Bob replied at 4 PM
                                              + Angel replied at 3:01 PM
                                              + Billy posted at 3:30 PM

                                              With most forums you don't get that, it's just a list of posts with no
                                              threading - just chronological order. I do get that in my mail client
                                              because it understands quoting so I can immediately see who wrote what
                                              if quoted material is in place.

                                              > I'm beginning to think that most of the respondents in this discussion
                                              > are quite saavy RE their email clients, and perhaps less savvy RE how
                                              > threaded conferencing/BBS/discussion boards can be used.

                                              It's really a religious war per se and there's different cultures.
                                              Forums tend to be lax about some things like quoting and such where
                                              email lists can be more stringent.

                                              For me, all my list mail comes in my Gmail account, is labeled and I
                                              can pick and choose what I delete off-hand, what I don't read but keep
                                              for archival purposes and what I do read. It's all in my Inbox, but I
                                              can look at just one label if I want. But I'm on roughly 50 lists - I
                                              don't want to go to fifty websites and read that. Not to mention,
                                              Gmail's search capabilities are wonderful so I can just search for a
                                              phrase and find it in all my saved email.

                                              We're all going to have opinions here, but I think it's important for
                                              people to make sure they are knowledgable on the choices out there and
                                              they choose what's best for them. Choice is a wonderful thing :)

                                              --
                                              HTH, YMMV, HANW :)

                                              Jason

                                              EL-M Computer Help List - Computer help for listowners and list moderators
                                              http://groups-beta.google.com/group/EL-M-ComputerHelp/about

                                              On June 1, 2001, Steve Ballmer, CEO of Microsoft, told the Chicago
                                              Sun-Times: "Linux is cancer." Unsurprisingly that's incorrect; LINUX
                                              was released on August 25th 1991 and is therefore a Virgo.
                                            • prog@lomascentral.com
                                              David, Sorry, badly phrased, when I said log in I meant go and access the forums. My email software shows me the stuff by date, author, subject or a
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Sep 8, 2005
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                                                David,

                                                Sorry, badly phrased, when I said log in I meant go and access the forums.

                                                My email software shows me the stuff by date, author, subject or a
                                                combination and I can change it with a single click

                                                As for deleting, that's what select all is for :-)

                                                Anyway, as has been said I suspect this has run it's course, I think we
                                                have two diametrically opposed viewpoints, we'll have to agree to differ :-)

                                                Tim

                                                On 07/09/2005 19:52 David R. Hanson wrote:
                                                > First, you don't need to log in every time--cookies take care of this,
                                                > and logging isn't even required at all unless you want a custom view
                                                > of the forum (which itself increases efficiency.)
                                                >
                                                > Second, since a web forum gives you a top-level view of entire set of
                                                > threads, organized by subject, it takes only seconds to scan the
                                                > entire list of new subjects in the forum. MUCH quicker than having to
                                                > look through emails, which not threaded in the same way, or grouped by
                                                > subject.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Aside from this, you discount the need to review and regularly delete
                                                > thousands of emails. With a web forum, there's no need to this
                                                > EVER--just do a search. And once you delete the emails you think
                                                > won't be interesting, they are gone. (You could return and search
                                                > yahoo groups too, but a web forum allows much more precision and ease
                                                > here.)
                                              • David Smart
                                                Oh eck - that type of forum. How I hate that format. You can access either the first or the last message - nothing in between. It doesn t seem to remember
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Sep 8, 2005
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                                                  Oh 'eck - that type of forum. How I hate that format. You can access either the first or the last message - nothing in between. It doesn't seem to remember what you've already read. I don't think it keeps a tree of replies associated with the individual messages they're in reply to.

                                                  About the only thing it does do is show you all the subjects at the top level, so that you can ignore the ones you're not interested in.

                                                  It's interesting how different people prefer different formats - can't please everyone, they say.

                                                  I don't agree that forums of this type offer threading capabilities - they just bunch all the replies for a subject into a single long list. (E-mail groups don't either, of course.) If you look at Internet groups through OE - or better yet through Thunderbird - you'll see proper threading. Replies to posts are linked firmly with the posts they reply to, so you can truly follow a thread inside a subject.

                                                  Dave S

                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: David R. Hanson
                                                  To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 5:42 AM
                                                  Subject: [NTO] BBS vs. Yahoo Groups debate con't


                                                  Hi Lotta,

                                                  People don't generally use "sensible subjects" on email lists (see
                                                  this forum as an example). Also, email clients don't have nearly the
                                                  threading capabilities of a even a rudimentary forum software. This
                                                  makes sense, because email was never designed to be used for group
                                                  discussion (unlike BBS software), and most people wouldn't know how to
                                                  use it this way.

                                                  As for saving, this is easily (and more efficiently) done by saving
                                                  the forum pages that interest you. Any decent forum software has the
                                                  functionality for this.

                                                  For people who aren't familiar with the kind of thing I'm talking
                                                  about, checkout http://www.fatwallet.com/c/52/ as a typical example
                                                  (software isn't especially good, but the forum isn't bad.)





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                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Tony McClelland
                                                  Dear David, ... That s the one. I have some sympathy with the desire to use open source wherever possible. I have tried Thunderbird and liked some things about
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Sep 8, 2005
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                                                    Dear David,

                                                    > Thanks for your two cents! Sorry, didn't see you comment above (the
                                                    > limits of using a group interface, alas) :)
                                                    >
                                                    > I have not heard of Becky!, that sounds very interesting... It's the
                                                    > product at http://www.rimarts.co.jp/becky.htm , correct?
                                                    >
                                                    > I try to use open source stuff, and am currently using Thuderbird. It
                                                    > does a pretty good job of threading, and an increasingly good job of
                                                    > searching.

                                                    That's the one. I have some sympathy with the desire to use open source
                                                    wherever possible. I have tried Thunderbird and liked some things about
                                                    it (and I use Firefox as my default browser). But I haven't yet found
                                                    anything to lure me away from Becky! Now that really is a religious war,
                                                    and I'm just saying what works best for me. But I would urge anyone to
                                                    try the 30 days free with Becky! just to find out for themselves.

                                                    Oh, and I just remembered another good feature of mailing lists over
                                                    web-based forums. I can reply to a bunch of messages offline and then
                                                    send my replies all at once when I connect. You can't do that with a web
                                                    forum.

                                                    --
                                                    Tony
                                                  • David R. Hanson
                                                    Thanks Jason and Tony for your very thoughtful replies! I now have a better sense of why you prefer email-based discussion. I still lack an gmail invitation
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Sep 8, 2005
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                                                      Thanks Jason and Tony for your very thoughtful replies!

                                                      I now have a better sense of why you prefer email-based discussion. I
                                                      still lack an gmail invitation (anyone like to send me one?) so I
                                                      haven't had a chance to play with gmail's search capabilities. But I
                                                      can certainly see more clearly how a _properly optimized_ email client
                                                      could surpass a web forum in functionality, especially for folks who
                                                      rely on dial-up or who must make most of their replies off-line.

                                                      For FAQs, and (more generally) information that needs to be updated
                                                      and edited, forums seem the clearly superior choice. But for general
                                                      chat, esp with lots of noise and little organization by thread, these
                                                      advantages are minor or nonexistant.

                                                      As I said, it seems pretty clear that the seniment of this group is to
                                                      stick with yahoo groups. I respect that, and I appreicate you all for
                                                      taking to the time to explain your decision in more detail. :)

                                                      Cheers, Dave
                                                    • Mickster
                                                      Dave, Send me the email address where you d like to have a gmail invite sent to and I ll be happy to send one. Mick
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Sep 8, 2005
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                                                        Dave,

                                                        Send me the email address where you'd like to have a gmail invite sent
                                                        to and I'll be happy to send one.

                                                        Mick

                                                        David R. Hanson wrote:
                                                        > Thanks Jason and Tony for your very thoughtful replies!
                                                        >
                                                        > I now have a better sense of why you prefer email-based discussion. I
                                                        > still lack an gmail invitation (anyone like to send me one?) so I
                                                        > haven't had a chance to play with gmail's search capabilities. But I
                                                        > can certainly see more clearly how a _properly optimized_ email client
                                                        > could surpass a web forum in functionality, especially for folks who
                                                        > rely on dial-up or who must make most of their replies off-line.
                                                        >
                                                        > For FAQs, and (more generally) information that needs to be updated
                                                        > and edited, forums seem the clearly superior choice. But for general
                                                        > chat, esp with lots of noise and little organization by thread, these
                                                        > advantages are minor or nonexistant.
                                                        >
                                                        > As I said, it seems pretty clear that the seniment of this group is to
                                                        > stick with yahoo groups. I respect that, and I appreicate you all for
                                                        > taking to the time to explain your decision in more detail. :)
                                                        >
                                                        > Cheers, Dave
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > .
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