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RE: [NTB] Re: Intro

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  • Greg Chapman
    Hi David, ... Or maybe just took advantage of being free for the provider of that board? ... The only methods I know of all involve the hassle of reconfiguring
    Message 1 of 27 , Sep 1, 2005
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      Hi David,

      > I don't know what message boards you've frequented in the past, but
      > they must have been poorly run.

      Or maybe just took advantage of being free for the provider of that board?

      >The worries you share (bloated
      > graphics, ads, etc.) are easily surmountable.

      The only methods I know of all involve the hassle of reconfiguring your
      browser, which then has to be re-configured for every other site you visit.
      In any case, all these complaints:

      > there is no efficient way to see what different topics
      > have been posted, or to follow a thread, or to send private messages,
      > or to cooperatively build FAQs, or do see if other questions have been
      > asked and answered.

      are dealt with by a decent mail client. Remember this is primarily a mail
      list. The YahooGroups web interface should only ever be regarded as a
      "back-up", if something has gone wrong with your normal access.

      > currently, we have to put up with whatever
      > overhead and bloat that yahoo wants to send our way.

      Hand-crafting the necessary scripts to run a private board, not only costs
      money but, I fancy, is outside of Jody's skill set. All free boards I know
      will be just as graphic ad laden as YahooGroups.

      However, I suspect that you haven't optimised your YahooGroup settings. I
      can tolerate a 280 byte ad like this:

      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ------------------->
      > Most low income households are not online. Help bridge the
      > digital divide today!
      > http://us.click.yahoo.com/cd_AJB/QnQLAA/TtwFAA/NhFolB/TM
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------>

      which is the kind of ad I get appended to each message. Not the stuff which
      I suspect you get. I also get the benefit of being able to read everything
      off-line. I can't do that on any web-based service.

      I guess that you come from a totally different culture to me, or you'd also
      not be top-posting and leaving a whole string of crud from previous posts
      for me to download, forcing me to download many times more guff than the ads
      that Yahoo appends. (If I want to see the history of a thread on a mail
      list, I just refer to the previous message. I don't need it continually
      echoed back to me, appended at the end of a message.) I come that that
      breed that of internet users who used to belong to FidoNet where you were
      deeply conscious of the costs incurred by hobbyists in setting up their
      bulletin boards and every minute on-line cost you an arm and a leg. I still
      frequently connect at 9.6kbps. Give me plain text mail any time!

      > (Alas, none of the replies on this subject have been transferred to
      > OT...in any case, it doesn't seem OT to me?)

      Well, it's not the basic use of NoteTab itself, so I reckon it is
      technically "off-topic".

      Greg
    • John Mitchell
      Greg My guess is that many denizens of this board, including me, remember the days when 9.6kbs was the height of luxury. The fact that we still choose to use a
      Message 2 of 27 , Sep 1, 2005
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        Greg

        My guess is that many denizens of this board, including me, remember the
        days when 9.6kbs was the height of luxury. The fact that we still choose
        to use a text editor like NoteTab when most of the world prefers word
        processors is axiomatic. The majority of boards/forums these days are
        based on Apache/phpBB which is Open Source, tried and trusted, and
        ubiquitous for the simple reason that it works well. Diehards who prefer
        plain text can sign up to receive (plain text) appends by mail and
        resist the urge to browse in colour.

        "Chacun a son gout", as I recall being drummed into me as a child at school!

        All the best, John M

        Greg Chapman wrote:

        > snip..
        >
        > I guess that you come from a totally different culture to me, or you'd
        > also
        > not be top-posting and leaving a whole string of crud from previous posts
        > for me to download, forcing me to download many times more guff than
        > the ads
        > that Yahoo appends. (If I want to see the history of a thread on a mail
        > list, I just refer to the previous message. I don't need it continually
        > echoed back to me, appended at the end of a message.) I come that that
        > breed that of internet users who used to belong to FidoNet where you were
        > deeply conscious of the costs incurred by hobbyists in setting up their
        > bulletin boards and every minute on-line cost you an arm and a leg. I
        > still
        > frequently connect at 9.6kbps. Give me plain text mail any time!
      • Greg Chapman
        Hi John, ... Oh indeed! My first modem was 1200bps and I felt a late arrival when others were talking of their 300bps acoustic couplers! ... I don t know who
        Message 3 of 27 , Sep 1, 2005
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          Hi John,

          > My guess is that many denizens of this board, including me, remember the
          > days when 9.6kbs was the height of luxury.

          Oh indeed! My first modem was 1200bps and I felt a late arrival when others
          were talking of their 300bps acoustic couplers!

          > "Chacun a son gout", as I recall being drummed into me as a child
          > at school!

          I don't know who this Chacun is that has a son with gout. Sounds painful!
          But I'm sure you're right really!

          Greg
        • John Mitchell
          ... Touché Greg! I meant to add the English translation (each to his own) but your theory is *much* better. Regards, John M
          Message 4 of 27 , Sep 1, 2005
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            Greg Chapman wrote:

            > snip..
            >
            > I don't know who this Chacun is that has a son with gout. Sounds painful!
            > But I'm sure you're right really!
            >
            > snip..

            Touché Greg! I meant to add the English translation (each to his own)
            but your theory is *much* better.

            Regards, John M
          • David Smart
            They had 300 baud? I remember when I started timesharing on a KSR 33 teletype with 110 baud. :-) (Well actually, I started long before that. Punched card
            Message 5 of 27 , Sep 1, 2005
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              They had 300 baud?

              I remember when I started timesharing on a KSR 33 teletype with 110 baud. :-)

              (Well actually, I started long before that. Punched card storage for programs was an improvement on my first computer job. Bloomin' big slate panels about a metre square with the programs set up with thousands of wires whose plugs would occasionally pop out of the board. Gave a whole new meaning to visual inspection of a program - or maybe this was where the term came from.)

              Dave S

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Greg Chapman
              To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 12:32 AM
              Subject: RE: [NTO] RE: [NTB] Re: Intro


              Hi John,

              > My guess is that many denizens of this board, including me, remember the
              > days when 9.6kbs was the height of luxury.

              Oh indeed! My first modem was 1200bps and I felt a late arrival when others
              were talking of their 300bps acoustic couplers!

              > "Chacun a son gout", as I recall being drummed into me as a child
              > at school!

              I don't know who this Chacun is that has a son with gout. Sounds painful!
              But I'm sure you're right really!

              Greg




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            • abairheart
              ... baud. :-) ... for programs was an improvement on my first computer job. What s this, i went slower than you did ? I started out switching an PDP 8 one
              Message 6 of 27 , Sep 3, 2005
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                --- In ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com, "David Smart" <smartware@o...>
                wrote:
                > They had 300 baud?
                >
                > I remember when I started timesharing on a KSR 33 teletype with 110
                baud. :-)
                >
                > (Well actually, I started long before that. Punched card storage
                for programs was an improvement on my first computer job.


                What's this, "i went slower than you did" ?

                I started out switching an PDP 8 one bit at a time, using the front
                panel switches ;-)

                Just kidding.

                Just what was this thread about, anyway?

                Abair
              • David Smart
                You had switches? I had to get out of bed at 4 am, build my computer from scratch using firewood .... sorry, far too much Monty Python. I think this started
                Message 7 of 27 , Sep 3, 2005
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                  You had switches? I had to get out of bed at 4 am, build my computer from scratch using firewood .... sorry, far too much Monty Python.

                  I think this started as an intro from a new member, who has undoubtedly come to the conclusion that we're all a bunch of loonies and has run away screaming. :-)

                  Dave S

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: abairheart
                  To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 5:18 AM
                  Subject: [NTO] RE: [NTB] Re: Intro


                  --- In ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com, "David Smart" <smartware@o...>
                  wrote:
                  > They had 300 baud?
                  >
                  > I remember when I started timesharing on a KSR 33 teletype with 110
                  baud. :-)
                  >
                  > (Well actually, I started long before that. Punched card storage
                  for programs was an improvement on my first computer job.


                  What's this, "i went slower than you did" ?

                  I started out switching an PDP 8 one bit at a time, using the front
                  panel switches ;-)

                  Just kidding.

                  Just what was this thread about, anyway?

                  Abair


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Greg Chapman
                  Hi Abair, ... It started on the main list with a call to have a proper discussion board rather than a YahooGroup. And I said No Never! Give me YahooGroup s
                  Message 8 of 27 , Sep 4, 2005
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                    Hi Abair,

                    > > (Well actually, I started long before that. Punched card storage
                    > for programs was an improvement on my first computer job.
                    >
                    >
                    > What's this, "i went slower than you did" ?

                    It started on the main list with a call to have a "proper" discussion board
                    rather than a YahooGroup. And I said No Never! Give me YahooGroup's plain
                    text e-mail and a decent e-mail client any day. It seems more appropriate
                    for support of a plain text editor and I just don't want the graphical
                    overhead and lack on off-line reading that message boards imply."

                    Greg
                  • David R. Hanson
                    Hi Greg, My apologies for the delay, just saw your reply now... ... board? That s a good point. lots of free BBSs are quite poor. I made the mistake of
                    Message 9 of 27 , Sep 6, 2005
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                      Hi Greg,

                      My apologies for the delay, just saw your reply now...

                      --- In ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Chapman" <greg@e...> wrote:
                      > > I don't know what message boards you've frequented in the past, but
                      > > they must have been poorly run.
                      >
                      > Or maybe just took advantage of being free for the provider of that
                      board?

                      That's a good point. lots of free BBSs are quite poor. I made the
                      mistake of trying to teach a class using EZboard, and then the
                      "backups" the provided proved non-existant once a hacker broke in.

                      No question, the only way to do a BBS is to use one of the excellent
                      open-source products that John alludes to.

                      > >The worries you share (bloated
                      > > graphics, ads, etc.) are easily surmountable.
                      >
                      > The only methods I know of all involve the hassle of reconfiguring your
                      > browser, which then has to be re-configured for every other site you
                      visit.

                      Eh? First, one can easily set up the BBS to be "lean and mean", so no
                      graphics bloat to begin with.

                      But then again, if you're against ads and graphics, why would you want
                      to ENABLE this overhead on other web sites anyway?


                      > In any case, all these complaints:
                      >
                      > > there is no efficient way to see what different topics
                      > > have been posted, or to follow a thread, or to send private messages,
                      > > or to cooperatively build FAQs, or do see if other questions have been
                      > > asked and answered.
                      >
                      > are dealt with by a decent mail client.

                      Do tell?

                      There's no way to send private messages with an email client, and no
                      way to have multiple parties edit a single post (as in a faq), since
                      it's an inherently non-editable medium (once it's sent, it's gone.)

                      This is a major liabilty when the point of the discussion is to get
                      up-to-date info on a product like notetab. It also means MORE junk to
                      sort through, not less...with an email based discussion board, I'm
                      dealing with a new FAQ every x days, having to download and delete
                      every time.

                      Granted, if one has a threaded email client, one can follow a
                      thread--but ONLY if that person has the other messages already
                      downloaded or available. With a BBS, the entire history is right
                      there in one efficient, easy to read screen (or more than one if the
                      thread is long and it's broken up into many pages.)

                      I'm not saying that an email-based discussion modality offers NO
                      advantages. But on the factors I just mentioned, it really isn't a
                      close call.

                      >Remember this is primarily a mail
                      > list. The YahooGroups web interface should only ever be regarded as a
                      > "back-up", if something has gone wrong with your normal access.

                      Agreed. But see above--this has all the limitations of that mode for
                      n-person communication.


                      > > currently, we have to put up with whatever
                      > > overhead and bloat that yahoo wants to send our way.
                      >
                      > Hand-crafting the necessary scripts to run a private board, not only
                      costs
                      > money but, I fancy, is outside of Jody's skill set. All free boards
                      I know
                      > will be just as graphic ad laden as YahooGroups.

                      As John indicates, no hand-crafting is necessary. There are several
                      FREE, open-source, turnkey products out there that do a remarkable
                      job. Of course it's up to Jody what he WISHES to do, but given his
                      skills RE notepad, putting together a lean web BBS would be child's
                      play for him.

                      And again, I'd vote against having ANY third-party provided solution:
                      Yahoo groups, ezboard, whatever. A simple free BBS hosted on his
                      currently existing website would do very nicely.

                      > I suspect you get. I also get the benefit of being able to read
                      everything
                      > off-line. I can't do that on any web-based service.

                      I concede that the ease of reading off-line is indeed the MAIN
                      advantage of an uneditable, static, email-type discussion mode.

                      However, there are a number of utilities that allow you to save BBSs
                      locally to your hard drive in a painless, automated fastion.
                      Admittedly, I don't have much experience with these utilities, because
                      I am blessed with an "always-on" broadband connection. I'm told that
                      they work quite well, however.


                      > I guess that you come from a totally different culture to me, or
                      you'd also
                      > not be top-posting and leaving a whole string of crud from previous
                      posts
                      > for me to download, forcing me to download many times more guff than
                      the ads
                      > that Yahoo appends. (If I want to see the history of a thread on a mail
                      > list, I just refer to the previous message. I don't need it continually
                      > echoed back to me, appended at the end of a message.)

                      My sincere apologies if I gave offense here...

                      Ironcially, I was trying to include the pertinent history in order to
                      make it easier for you and other readers...not to make it harder.
                      (Sure, you COULD search through your archieve of emails to trace the
                      post history on this, but I assumed that the few seconds it takes to
                      download the text at once would be a more than fair tradeoff for the
                      added convenience...even at 9600 bps!

                      I come that that
                      > breed that of internet users who used to belong to FidoNet where you
                      were
                      > deeply conscious of the costs incurred by hobbyists in setting up their
                      > bulletin boards and every minute on-line cost you an arm and a leg.

                      I very much respect that--sincerely. I've been a ham radio op since
                      age 11, and get the "minimizing costs" point.

                      OTOH, even as bandwidth continues to grows rapidly, available time
                      does not. I value modes of communication that help me find the
                      current version of just what I need, swiftly, efficiently, and
                      reliably. That's what a good BBS offers.
                    • loro
                      ... Gosh! I do that all the time! ;-) Jokes aside, I like message boards and I like mailing lists. But, these lists are Jody s private effort and Jody likes
                      Message 10 of 27 , Sep 6, 2005
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                        David R. Hanson wrote:
                        >There's no way to send private messages with an email client

                        Gosh! I do that all the time! ;-)

                        Jokes aside, I like message boards and I like mailing lists. But, these
                        lists are Jody's private effort and Jody likes mailing lists. Period.
                        There's nothing that stops you, me or anyone else from putting up a board
                        to discuss Notetab. That was sort of what Jody did with the lists, long
                        before he worked for Fookes. I won't do it because I know everyone will
                        stay here anyway.

                        Point is, the lists are Jody's. Not Fookes Software's.

                        Lotta
                      • David R. Hanson
                        ... Fair enough...as per the subject of this debate, why do you like mailing lists? ... I didn t realize that these had no connection at all to Fookes, and
                        Message 11 of 27 , Sep 6, 2005
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                          --- In ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com, loro <loro-spam01-@t...> wrote:
                          > Jokes aside, I like message boards and I like mailing lists.

                          Fair enough...as per the subject of this debate, why do you like
                          mailing lists?

                          >But, these
                          > lists are Jody's private effort and Jody likes mailing lists. Period.

                          I didn't realize that these had no connection at all to Fookes, and
                          were strictly Jody's effort. Thank you for clarifying that...

                          Certainly, I respect our host's wishes, and do not mean to antagonize.
                          I would respectfully suggest that he consider the benefits that a
                          lean and mean message board would provide.

                          > There's nothing that stops you, me or anyone else from putting up a
                          board
                          > to discuss Notetab. That was sort of what Jody did with the lists, long
                          > before he worked for Fookes. I won't do it because I know everyone will
                          > stay here anyway.

                          Indeed, as you suggest, there is nothing stopping us from starting a
                          web BBS but the preferences of the community--and that is everything
                          in this context, as you response implies. If Jody or a plurality of
                          other forum members expressed an interest, I'd gladly donate both the
                          web space and the software myself.

                          > Point is, the lists are Jody's. Not Fookes Software's.

                          OK...but is it fair to say that this is the de facto place where one
                          receives ongoing (i.e. updated and interactive) support for Notetab?

                          If it is, and if Jody is currently working for Fookes, then if I were
                          in his position, I would try to accommodate the preferences and needs
                          of my paying customers.

                          Please note, this is NOT to imply that I'm griping about what is here.
                          While I don't much care for groups for reasons discussed, I'm VERY
                          grateful to him and the rest of you for the discussion you offer on
                          this excellent software product.

                          Cheers, Dave
                        • loro
                          ... Why not? As said, I like both. I don t know if I have a preference really. For groups I tend to follow closely, I think I *maybe* prefer mailing lists
                          Message 12 of 27 , Sep 6, 2005
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                            David R. Hanson wrote:
                            > > Jokes aside, I like message boards and I like mailing lists.
                            >Fair enough...as per the subject of this debate, why do you like
                            >mailing lists?

                            Why not? As said, I like both. I don't know if I have a preference really.
                            For groups I tend to follow closely, I think I *maybe* prefer mailing lists
                            because it's faster to skim through the posts. I can save posts and search
                            them later with any tool I want and so on. I'm not following the Notatab
                            lists that close anymore though. Guess I'm just used to them being lists. I
                            think if they were a board I would probably never look in some categories
                            (sorry!) and miss a lot. Now I at least see everything flicker by. But
                            that's me. Generally speaking I'm on about as many lists as boards. I take
                            them as they come.

                            > >But, these
                            > > lists are Jody's private effort and Jody likes mailing lists. Period.
                            >
                            >I didn't realize that these had no connection at all to Fookes, and
                            >were strictly Jody's effort. Thank you for clarifying that...

                            Thought you didn't. No one does. I'm really sorry if I sounded harsh. I
                            didn't mean to say "period" to you. I meant that's Jody's take on it. This
                            has been up before. ;-)

                            >OK...but is it fair to say that this is the de facto place where one
                            >receives ongoing (i.e. updated and interactive) support for Notetab?

                            I think that's about it. The lists act as support lists but they are not.
                            Hey, this is like politics!

                            Lotta
                          • David Smart
                            The reason I like mailing lists is that the information arrives with the rest of my e-mail. I can then filter/divert it as needed, and according to which of
                            Message 13 of 27 , Sep 6, 2005
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                              The reason I like mailing lists is that the information arrives with the rest of my e-mail. I can then filter/divert it as needed, and according to which of my e-mail devices I receive it on.

                              I've also got one of my computers linked to several Internet discussion groups. I attend to these much less often. My biggest annoyance with these is that I have only been able to achieve satisfactory access when I link only from one PC. If I link to the same groups from multiple PCs, they all update independently, so I've got to scan them all to mark messages/threads as read. As I use two different PCs at home, plus a laptop of my own, plus customer computers on two sites, plus an IPAQ (for mail, not Internet groups), keeping the Internet groups up-to-date would be impossible. (With mailing lists, I only get one copy of the message - on the machine I'm using at the moment, including the IPAQ.)

                              As co-owner / co-moderator of five Yahoo groups, I find that they work pretty well. The price is good too. :-)

                              Dave S

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: David R. Hanson
                              To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 6:45 AM
                              Subject: [NTO] BBS vs. Yahoo Groups debate con't (was [NTB] Re: Intro)


                              --- In ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com, loro <loro-spam01-@t...> wrote:
                              > Jokes aside, I like message boards and I like mailing lists.

                              Fair enough...as per the subject of this debate, why do you like
                              mailing lists?

                              >But, these
                              > lists are Jody's private effort and Jody likes mailing lists. Period.

                              I didn't realize that these had no connection at all to Fookes, and
                              were strictly Jody's effort. Thank you for clarifying that...

                              Certainly, I respect our host's wishes, and do not mean to antagonize.
                              I would respectfully suggest that he consider the benefits that a
                              lean and mean message board would provide.

                              > There's nothing that stops you, me or anyone else from putting up a
                              board
                              > to discuss Notetab. That was sort of what Jody did with the lists, long
                              > before he worked for Fookes. I won't do it because I know everyone will
                              > stay here anyway.

                              Indeed, as you suggest, there is nothing stopping us from starting a
                              web BBS but the preferences of the community--and that is everything
                              in this context, as you response implies. If Jody or a plurality of
                              other forum members expressed an interest, I'd gladly donate both the
                              web space and the software myself.

                              > Point is, the lists are Jody's. Not Fookes Software's.

                              OK...but is it fair to say that this is the de facto place where one
                              receives ongoing (i.e. updated and interactive) support for Notetab?

                              If it is, and if Jody is currently working for Fookes, then if I were
                              in his position, I would try to accommodate the preferences and needs
                              of my paying customers.

                              Please note, this is NOT to imply that I'm griping about what is here.
                              While I don't much care for groups for reasons discussed, I'm VERY
                              grateful to him and the rest of you for the discussion you offer on
                              this excellent software product.

                              Cheers, Dave




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                            • David R. Hanson
                              Thanks for replying Dave, ... the rest of my e-mail. I can then filter/divert it as needed, and according to which of my e-mail devices I receive it on. That
                              Message 14 of 27 , Sep 6, 2005
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                                Thanks for replying Dave,

                                --- In ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com, "David Smart" <smartware@o...> wrote:
                                > The reason I like mailing lists is that the information arrives with
                                the rest of my e-mail. I can then filter/divert it as needed, and
                                according to which of my e-mail devices I receive it on.

                                That makes sense. I gather your email devices aren't web accessible?
                                I can see how a person who uses such devices regularly would prefer a
                                group/email format.

                                > I've also got one of my computers linked to several Internet
                                discussion groups. I attend to these much less often. My biggest
                                annoyance with these is that I have only been able to achieve
                                satisfactory access when I link only from one PC. If I link to the
                                same groups from multiple PCs, they all update independently, so I've
                                got to scan them all to mark messages/threads as read.


                                This problem should be eliminated if you log in to the forum, rather
                                than just review it as a guest. That way, what you've read, sorted,
                                marked, etc. will be available.

                                Moreover, I think this argues FOR a BBS. With groups/email, your web
                                devices won't be synchronized like a BBS account would be. IMAP email
                                would help, but would eliminate the problem.
                              • prog@lomascentral.com
                                I think you re missing one of the major points. I subscribe to a fairly large number of mailing lists (about a dozen at the moment) and get a lot of emails on
                                Message 15 of 27 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                  I think you're missing one of the major points.

                                  I subscribe to a fairly large number of mailing lists (about a dozen at
                                  the moment) and get a lot of emails on them (between 1000 and 2000 per day).

                                  Now, of those emails only a small number are actually of interest and
                                  those are filtered out to folders (by my email software) that I can see
                                  immediately are of potential interest. I can then scan the others
                                  quickly to see if anything looks interesting when I have the time.

                                  Using a web based forum would require me to log in to a dozen different
                                  web forums, scan a multitude of listings and take a considerable time
                                  daily. I don't have the time (or inclination) to spend an hour or more a
                                  day looking for items of interest rather than the minute or two it takes
                                  me today.

                                  Mailing lists are inherently more efficient for my requirements, my
                                  reaction if it were to move to a web forum would be to simply stop
                                  reading it.

                                  Tim

                                  David R. Hanson wrote:
                                  > This problem should be eliminated if you log in to the forum, rather
                                  > than just review it as a guest. That way, what you've read, sorted,
                                  > marked, etc. will be available.
                                  >
                                  > Moreover, I think this argues FOR a BBS. With groups/email, your web
                                  > devices won't be synchronized like a BBS account would be. IMAP email
                                  > would help, but would eliminate the problem.
                                • David R. Hanson
                                  Hi Tim, The issue you raise is efficiency RE scanning what would be of interest to you. I m very sympathetic to this concern, and agree that it should be a
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                    Hi Tim,

                                    The issue you raise is efficiency RE scanning what would be of
                                    interest to you. I'm very sympathetic to this concern, and agree that
                                    it should be a major consideration.

                                    I think you exaggerate the effort involved in scanning a
                                    well-organized web forum.

                                    First, you don't need to log in every time--cookies take care of this,
                                    and logging isn't even required at all unless you want a custom view
                                    of the forum (which itself increases efficiency.)

                                    Second, since a web forum gives you a top-level view of entire set of
                                    threads, organized by subject, it takes only seconds to scan the
                                    entire list of new subjects in the forum. MUCH quicker than having to
                                    look through emails, which not threaded in the same way, or grouped by
                                    subject.


                                    Aside from this, you discount the need to review and regularly delete
                                    thousands of emails. With a web forum, there's no need to this
                                    EVER--just do a search. And once you delete the emails you think
                                    won't be interesting, they are gone. (You could return and search
                                    yahoo groups too, but a web forum allows much more precision and ease
                                    here.)


                                    Look, I want to stress that I respect the wishes of the apparent
                                    majority here to continue using a listserve. If most notetab users
                                    feel this way, that's a great reason not to change. I just believe
                                    that there would be far more utility in a web-based solution.
                                  • loro
                                    ... They are if you use an email client that supports threading. ... They are if sensible subject lines are used. ... So save them. ... And when the forum is
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                      David R. Hanson wrote:
                                      >MUCH quicker than having to
                                      >look through emails, which not threaded in the same way

                                      They are if you use an email client that supports threading.

                                      >or grouped by subject.

                                      They are if sensible subject lines are used.

                                      >Aside from this, you discount the need to review and regularly delete
                                      >thousands of emails.

                                      So save them.

                                      > With a web forum, there's no need to this
                                      >EVER--just do a search.

                                      And when the forum is long gone? Then what do you do?

                                      > And once you delete the emails you think
                                      >won't be interesting, they are gone.

                                      Not if you save them. ;-)

                                      Lotta
                                    • Tony McClelland
                                      ... I have so far read this thread with interest but from the sidelines. I have seen similar threads in other mailing lists I am subscribed to. I just want to
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                        > The issue you raise is efficiency RE scanning what would be of interest
                                        > to you. I'm very sympathetic to this concern, and agree that it should
                                        > be a major consideration.
                                        >
                                        > I think you exaggerate the effort involved in scanning a well-organized
                                        > web forum.
                                        >
                                        > First, you don't need to log in every time--cookies take care of this,
                                        > and logging isn't even required at all unless you want a custom view of
                                        > the forum (which itself increases efficiency.)
                                        >
                                        > Second, since a web forum gives you a top-level view of entire set of
                                        > threads, organized by subject, it takes only seconds to scan the entire
                                        > list of new subjects in the forum. MUCH quicker than having to look
                                        > through emails, which not threaded in the same way, or grouped by
                                        > subject.
                                        >
                                        > Aside from this, you discount the need to review and regularly delete
                                        > thousands of emails. With a web forum, there's no need to this EVER--
                                        > just do a search. And once you delete the emails you think won't be
                                        > interesting, they are gone. (You could return and search yahoo groups
                                        > too, but a web forum allows much more precision and ease here.)
                                        >
                                        > Look, I want to stress that I respect the wishes of the apparent
                                        > majority here to continue using a listserve. If most notetab users feel
                                        > this way, that's a great reason not to change. I just believe that there
                                        > would be far more utility in a web-based solution.

                                        I have so far read this thread with interest but from the sidelines. I
                                        have seen similar threads in other mailing lists I am subscribed to. I
                                        just want to add my vote for things to stay the way they are. The
                                        convenience and long-term usefulness as a resource of a mailing list is
                                        great for me. I use Becky! as my mail client, which has very strong
                                        support for mailing lists, including threading the messages, and a great
                                        search function. I don't delete emails from mailing lists (unless they
                                        are either spam or simple "me too" noise) but keep them knowing that I
                                        will need to search for things there in future. I can find a message
                                        about some topic of interest quickly even in a list of thousands of
                                        messages, and then follow the thread again to see what advice came up.
                                        Sure you can do that with a web interface, but if you access the
                                        internet through a dial-up connection (as I do) it is much quicker to
                                        have the archive available offline. I would hate to try to do that with
                                        an email client that didn't thread discussions though. Or one that had
                                        rather limited searching. If you haven't tried Becky! before, please do
                                        so, you might never go back to web-based forums.

                                        Best,
                                        --
                                        Tony
                                      • David R. Hanson
                                        Hi Lotta, People don t generally use sensible subjects on email lists (see this forum as an example). Also, email clients don t have nearly the threading
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                          Hi Lotta,

                                          People don't generally use "sensible subjects" on email lists (see
                                          this forum as an example). Also, email clients don't have nearly the
                                          threading capabilities of a even a rudimentary forum software. This
                                          makes sense, because email was never designed to be used for group
                                          discussion (unlike BBS software), and most people wouldn't know how to
                                          use it this way.

                                          As for saving, this is easily (and more efficiently) done by saving
                                          the forum pages that interest you. Any decent forum software has the
                                          functionality for this.

                                          For people who aren't familiar with the kind of thing I'm talking
                                          about, checkout http://www.fatwallet.com/c/52/ as a typical example
                                          (software isn't especially good, but the forum isn't bad.)
                                        • loro
                                          ... On most lists I m on they do. I don t think it s that bad here either. The excessive quoting is annoying though (couldn t refrain from THAT! Hee-hee! ;-o))
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                            At 21:42 2005-09-07, David R. Hanson wrote:
                                            >People don't generally use "sensible subjects" on email lists (see
                                            >this forum as an example).

                                            On most lists I'm on they do. I don't think it's that bad here either. The
                                            excessive quoting is annoying though (couldn't refrain from THAT! Hee-hee!
                                            ;-o))

                                            > Also, email clients don't have nearly the
                                            >threading capabilities of a even a rudimentary forum software.

                                            I'd say it's the other way around.

                                            >As for saving, this is easily (and more efficiently) done by saving
                                            >the forum pages that interest you. Any decent forum software has the
                                            >functionality for this.

                                            Come on! You can't mean that would be quicker? Besides, how does this
                                            differ from deleting some of the lists posts? What's not saved will one day
                                            be gone.

                                            >For people who aren't familiar with the kind of thing I'm talking
                                            >about, checkout http://www.fatwallet.com/c/52/ as a typical example
                                            >(software isn't especially good, but the forum isn't bad.)

                                            I see a typical flat board, not a threaded one.

                                            ????????
                                            Lotta
                                          • David R. Hanson
                                            Tony, Thanks for your two cents! Sorry, didn t see you comment above (the limits of using a group interface, alas) :) I have not heard of Becky!, that sounds
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                              Tony,

                                              Thanks for your two cents! Sorry, didn't see you comment above (the
                                              limits of using a group interface, alas) :)

                                              I have not heard of Becky!, that sounds very interesting... It's the
                                              product at http://www.rimarts.co.jp/becky.htm , correct?

                                              I try to use open source stuff, and am currently using Thuderbird. It
                                              does a pretty good job of threading, and an increasingly good job of
                                              searching.


                                              Lotta,

                                              > > Also, email clients don't have nearly the
                                              > >threading capabilities of a even a rudimentary forum software.
                                              >
                                              > I'd say it's the other way around.

                                              Huh? I'm not sure what basis you have for this assertion...

                                              Look at that Fatwallet forum. Everything is threaded from the start.
                                              Ratings are available to help distinguish helpful from unhelpful
                                              threads. None of that exists, or even COULD exist that does this....

                                              > >As for saving, this is easily (and more efficiently) done by saving
                                              > >the forum pages that interest you. Any decent forum software has the
                                              > >functionality for this.
                                              >
                                              > Come on! You can't mean that would be quicker?

                                              I didn't say it would be quicker to save, just more efficient, because
                                              you can save each PAGE/DISCUSSION you want to at a time, with no need
                                              to go through and delete stuff you don't want to keep.

                                              > >For people who aren't familiar with the kind of thing I'm talking
                                              > >about, checkout http://www.fatwallet.com/c/52/ as a typical example
                                              > >(software isn't especially good, but the forum isn't bad.)
                                              >
                                              > I see a typical flat board, not a threaded one.

                                              Each topic is a "thread". That's the organizing metaphor for the
                                              entire board.


                                              I'm beginning to think that most of the respondents in this discussion
                                              are quite saavy RE their email clients, and perhaps less savvy RE how
                                              threaded conferencing/BBS/discussion boards can be used.

                                              This is hardly surprising, given that a "yahoo group" readers will
                                              self select among those (in this case, notetab users) who like
                                              communicating in this manner.

                                              In any case, if the responses so far are typical, then "the people
                                              have spoken", ratifying the status quo. I like notetab enough and
                                              value your all's experience enough to accept such a verdict, even
                                              though I disagree with it. :)
                                            • Jason W.
                                              David, I m not Lotta, but..... ... A good portion of the web forums I ve used thread by subject only. I haven t seen where I can thread by date or author. Even
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                                David,

                                                I'm not Lotta, but.....

                                                On 9/7/05, David R. Hanson <posts.yahoo@...> wrote:

                                                > Lotta,
                                                >
                                                > > > Also, email clients don't have nearly the
                                                > > >threading capabilities of a even a rudimentary forum software.
                                                > >
                                                > > I'd say it's the other way around.
                                                >
                                                > Huh? I'm not sure what basis you have for this assertion...

                                                A good portion of the web forums I've used thread by subject only. I
                                                haven't seen where I can thread by date or author. Even Microsft
                                                Outlook - the bane of email clients - can thread by author, date,
                                                subject, conversation and a lot of other things.

                                                > Look at that Fatwallet forum. Everything is threaded from the start.
                                                > Ratings are available to help distinguish helpful from unhelpful
                                                > threads. None of that exists, or even COULD exist that

                                                But with email, we really don't need that. For example, I'm on a list
                                                that mostly is idle chit chat and not anything I'd want to read, but I
                                                do have a "list" of posters that post interresting stuff. So on that
                                                list, I just delete anytthing that isn't interesting.

                                                > I didn't say it would be quicker to save, just more efficient, because
                                                > you can save each PAGE/DISCUSSION you want to at a time, with no need
                                                > to go through and delete stuff you don't want to keep.

                                                But then I'd have a whole thread I'd have to wade thru to find that
                                                one little tidbit I wanted to save - rather than saving only that one
                                                person's message and canning the others.

                                                > > >For people who aren't familiar with the kind of thing I'm talking
                                                > > >about, checkout http://www.fatwallet.com/c/52/ as a typical example
                                                > > >(software isn't especially good, but the forum isn't bad.)
                                                > >
                                                > > I see a typical flat board, not a threaded one.
                                                >
                                                > Each topic is a "thread". That's the organizing metaphor for the
                                                > entire board.

                                                I think Lotta was referring to who replied to whom in a thread. A
                                                medium isn't conversationally threaded unless you can immediately tell
                                                that just from an overview list of messages.

                                                + John posted at 2 PM
                                                + Sally replied at 3 PM
                                                + Bob replied at 4 PM
                                                + Angel replied at 3:01 PM
                                                + Billy posted at 3:30 PM

                                                With most forums you don't get that, it's just a list of posts with no
                                                threading - just chronological order. I do get that in my mail client
                                                because it understands quoting so I can immediately see who wrote what
                                                if quoted material is in place.

                                                > I'm beginning to think that most of the respondents in this discussion
                                                > are quite saavy RE their email clients, and perhaps less savvy RE how
                                                > threaded conferencing/BBS/discussion boards can be used.

                                                It's really a religious war per se and there's different cultures.
                                                Forums tend to be lax about some things like quoting and such where
                                                email lists can be more stringent.

                                                For me, all my list mail comes in my Gmail account, is labeled and I
                                                can pick and choose what I delete off-hand, what I don't read but keep
                                                for archival purposes and what I do read. It's all in my Inbox, but I
                                                can look at just one label if I want. But I'm on roughly 50 lists - I
                                                don't want to go to fifty websites and read that. Not to mention,
                                                Gmail's search capabilities are wonderful so I can just search for a
                                                phrase and find it in all my saved email.

                                                We're all going to have opinions here, but I think it's important for
                                                people to make sure they are knowledgable on the choices out there and
                                                they choose what's best for them. Choice is a wonderful thing :)

                                                --
                                                HTH, YMMV, HANW :)

                                                Jason

                                                EL-M Computer Help List - Computer help for listowners and list moderators
                                                http://groups-beta.google.com/group/EL-M-ComputerHelp/about

                                                On June 1, 2001, Steve Ballmer, CEO of Microsoft, told the Chicago
                                                Sun-Times: "Linux is cancer." Unsurprisingly that's incorrect; LINUX
                                                was released on August 25th 1991 and is therefore a Virgo.
                                              • prog@lomascentral.com
                                                David, Sorry, badly phrased, when I said log in I meant go and access the forums. My email software shows me the stuff by date, author, subject or a
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Sep 8, 2005
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                                                  David,

                                                  Sorry, badly phrased, when I said log in I meant go and access the forums.

                                                  My email software shows me the stuff by date, author, subject or a
                                                  combination and I can change it with a single click

                                                  As for deleting, that's what select all is for :-)

                                                  Anyway, as has been said I suspect this has run it's course, I think we
                                                  have two diametrically opposed viewpoints, we'll have to agree to differ :-)

                                                  Tim

                                                  On 07/09/2005 19:52 David R. Hanson wrote:
                                                  > First, you don't need to log in every time--cookies take care of this,
                                                  > and logging isn't even required at all unless you want a custom view
                                                  > of the forum (which itself increases efficiency.)
                                                  >
                                                  > Second, since a web forum gives you a top-level view of entire set of
                                                  > threads, organized by subject, it takes only seconds to scan the
                                                  > entire list of new subjects in the forum. MUCH quicker than having to
                                                  > look through emails, which not threaded in the same way, or grouped by
                                                  > subject.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Aside from this, you discount the need to review and regularly delete
                                                  > thousands of emails. With a web forum, there's no need to this
                                                  > EVER--just do a search. And once you delete the emails you think
                                                  > won't be interesting, they are gone. (You could return and search
                                                  > yahoo groups too, but a web forum allows much more precision and ease
                                                  > here.)
                                                • David Smart
                                                  Oh eck - that type of forum. How I hate that format. You can access either the first or the last message - nothing in between. It doesn t seem to remember
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Sep 8, 2005
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                                                    Oh 'eck - that type of forum. How I hate that format. You can access either the first or the last message - nothing in between. It doesn't seem to remember what you've already read. I don't think it keeps a tree of replies associated with the individual messages they're in reply to.

                                                    About the only thing it does do is show you all the subjects at the top level, so that you can ignore the ones you're not interested in.

                                                    It's interesting how different people prefer different formats - can't please everyone, they say.

                                                    I don't agree that forums of this type offer threading capabilities - they just bunch all the replies for a subject into a single long list. (E-mail groups don't either, of course.) If you look at Internet groups through OE - or better yet through Thunderbird - you'll see proper threading. Replies to posts are linked firmly with the posts they reply to, so you can truly follow a thread inside a subject.

                                                    Dave S

                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: David R. Hanson
                                                    To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 5:42 AM
                                                    Subject: [NTO] BBS vs. Yahoo Groups debate con't


                                                    Hi Lotta,

                                                    People don't generally use "sensible subjects" on email lists (see
                                                    this forum as an example). Also, email clients don't have nearly the
                                                    threading capabilities of a even a rudimentary forum software. This
                                                    makes sense, because email was never designed to be used for group
                                                    discussion (unlike BBS software), and most people wouldn't know how to
                                                    use it this way.

                                                    As for saving, this is easily (and more efficiently) done by saving
                                                    the forum pages that interest you. Any decent forum software has the
                                                    functionality for this.

                                                    For people who aren't familiar with the kind of thing I'm talking
                                                    about, checkout http://www.fatwallet.com/c/52/ as a typical example
                                                    (software isn't especially good, but the forum isn't bad.)





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                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Tony McClelland
                                                    Dear David, ... That s the one. I have some sympathy with the desire to use open source wherever possible. I have tried Thunderbird and liked some things about
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Sep 8, 2005
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                                                      Dear David,

                                                      > Thanks for your two cents! Sorry, didn't see you comment above (the
                                                      > limits of using a group interface, alas) :)
                                                      >
                                                      > I have not heard of Becky!, that sounds very interesting... It's the
                                                      > product at http://www.rimarts.co.jp/becky.htm , correct?
                                                      >
                                                      > I try to use open source stuff, and am currently using Thuderbird. It
                                                      > does a pretty good job of threading, and an increasingly good job of
                                                      > searching.

                                                      That's the one. I have some sympathy with the desire to use open source
                                                      wherever possible. I have tried Thunderbird and liked some things about
                                                      it (and I use Firefox as my default browser). But I haven't yet found
                                                      anything to lure me away from Becky! Now that really is a religious war,
                                                      and I'm just saying what works best for me. But I would urge anyone to
                                                      try the 30 days free with Becky! just to find out for themselves.

                                                      Oh, and I just remembered another good feature of mailing lists over
                                                      web-based forums. I can reply to a bunch of messages offline and then
                                                      send my replies all at once when I connect. You can't do that with a web
                                                      forum.

                                                      --
                                                      Tony
                                                    • David R. Hanson
                                                      Thanks Jason and Tony for your very thoughtful replies! I now have a better sense of why you prefer email-based discussion. I still lack an gmail invitation
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Sep 8, 2005
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                                                        Thanks Jason and Tony for your very thoughtful replies!

                                                        I now have a better sense of why you prefer email-based discussion. I
                                                        still lack an gmail invitation (anyone like to send me one?) so I
                                                        haven't had a chance to play with gmail's search capabilities. But I
                                                        can certainly see more clearly how a _properly optimized_ email client
                                                        could surpass a web forum in functionality, especially for folks who
                                                        rely on dial-up or who must make most of their replies off-line.

                                                        For FAQs, and (more generally) information that needs to be updated
                                                        and edited, forums seem the clearly superior choice. But for general
                                                        chat, esp with lots of noise and little organization by thread, these
                                                        advantages are minor or nonexistant.

                                                        As I said, it seems pretty clear that the seniment of this group is to
                                                        stick with yahoo groups. I respect that, and I appreicate you all for
                                                        taking to the time to explain your decision in more detail. :)

                                                        Cheers, Dave
                                                      • Mickster
                                                        Dave, Send me the email address where you d like to have a gmail invite sent to and I ll be happy to send one. Mick
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Sep 8, 2005
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                                                          Dave,

                                                          Send me the email address where you'd like to have a gmail invite sent
                                                          to and I'll be happy to send one.

                                                          Mick

                                                          David R. Hanson wrote:
                                                          > Thanks Jason and Tony for your very thoughtful replies!
                                                          >
                                                          > I now have a better sense of why you prefer email-based discussion. I
                                                          > still lack an gmail invitation (anyone like to send me one?) so I
                                                          > haven't had a chance to play with gmail's search capabilities. But I
                                                          > can certainly see more clearly how a _properly optimized_ email client
                                                          > could surpass a web forum in functionality, especially for folks who
                                                          > rely on dial-up or who must make most of their replies off-line.
                                                          >
                                                          > For FAQs, and (more generally) information that needs to be updated
                                                          > and edited, forums seem the clearly superior choice. But for general
                                                          > chat, esp with lots of noise and little organization by thread, these
                                                          > advantages are minor or nonexistant.
                                                          >
                                                          > As I said, it seems pretty clear that the seniment of this group is to
                                                          > stick with yahoo groups. I respect that, and I appreicate you all for
                                                          > taking to the time to explain your decision in more detail. :)
                                                          >
                                                          > Cheers, Dave
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > .
                                                          >
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