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Re: [NTO] Math MB > GB

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  • DA
    Hi Jody, Unfortunately, there are two systems in use for calculating KB, MB and GB. The decimal based one and the binary one. For advertising purposes they
    Message 1 of 20 , May 4 2:30 PM
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      Hi Jody,

      Unfortunately, there are two systems in use for calculating
      KB, MB and GB. The decimal based one and the binary one.

      For advertising purposes they usually want the largest number they
      can get, so they will use multiples of 1000 to measure the capacity
      of disk drives, etc.

      The binary based KB, MB and GB is used by hardware and technical
      people and is multiples of 1024. Sometimes you see the two systems
      intermixed.

      So, a hard drive advertised as 100 MB is usually about 5% smaller
      when you recalculate the capacity using the binary based 1024
      factor instead of 1000.
      (1024*1024=1,048,576 compared to 1000*1000=1,000,000)

      The answer to your question, "100MB * 11.5 = ? GB" depends upon
      which system is being used for the 100MB part, and which system
      you want the GB answer to use.

      I'd like to see a 1024 standard established, but I'm sure the
      marketing people will continue to have their way.

      It's a little confusing, but I hope this helps.

      DA

      > I though the formula was BG/1024 would be the one, but I don't
      > think so. Gee, I do not know how much a MG is. I think the 1024
      > is like for bytes, KB, etc.
      >
      > So, I have a factor of 100 and want/need to find x in BG.
      >
      > So, 100MB * 11.5 = ? GB. I think I have my CPU set wrong. I
      > have the setting at 11.5 and it shows up as 1100
    • Jody
      Hi DA, (Thanks for the DLL Remover Wendy, Alec, and Alan!) Thank you! That sure is a keeper. Now, guess what? The post got sent before I changed it to what
      Message 2 of 20 , May 4 6:01 PM
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        Hi DA,

        (Thanks for the DLL Remover Wendy, Alec, and Alan!)

        Thank you! That sure is a keeper. Now, guess what? The post
        got sent before I changed it to what I really wanted to know,
        although I have always been curios about the MB/GB.

        It is hertz I needed to know for my CPU. I have a 1.1GHz cpu. I
        have the factor of 100 * ? = 1.1GHz. I probably not wording it
        right. I have the 100 and different settings like 7.7, 11.5 and
        when I use those, like 11.5 for instance, it comes to 1100. In
        other words, I do not have a 1.1GHz setting. I hope I gave
        enough information. I'll check it next time I boot up.

        >Unfortunately, there are two systems in use for calculating KB,
        >MB and GB. The decimal based one and the binary one.


        Happy Topics,
        Jody

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      • DA
        Hi Jody, Oh -- now I get it! In this case the 1024 stuff doesn t apply since it is a frequency that it is being applied to. 1100 Mhz = 1.1 Ghz (1100/1000) so
        Message 3 of 20 , May 4 7:09 PM
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          Hi Jody,

          Oh -- now I get it!

          In this case the 1024 stuff doesn't apply since
          it is a frequency that it is being applied to.

          1100 Mhz = 1.1 Ghz (1100/1000) so you are getting
          the right number, but the arithmetic is a little
          weird.

          11.5 * 100 = 1150 not 1100, but if you
          get the right number anyhow, who cares?

          DA


          > Thank you! That sure is a keeper. Now, guess what? The post
          > got sent before I changed it to what I really wanted to know,
          > although I have always been curios about the MB/GB.
          >
          > It is hertz I needed to know for my CPU. I have a 1.1GHz cpu. I
          > have the factor of 100 * ? = 1.1GHz. I probably not wording it
          > right. I have the 100 and different settings like 7.7, 11.5 and
          > when I use those, like 11.5 for instance, it comes to 1100. In
          > other words, I do not have a 1.1GHz setting. I hope I gave
          > enough information. I'll check it next time I boot up.
        • Ben Barnet
          ... Jody, what processor is this? If it s a 1.1GHz Celeron the spec is to set the system clock (FSB) to 100MHz and use a multiplier of 11. All Intel CPUs since
          Message 4 of 20 , May 4 11:52 PM
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            Jody wrote:

            > It is hertz I needed to know for my CPU. I have a 1.1GHz cpu. I
            > have the factor of 100 * ? = 1.1GHz. I probably not wording it
            > right. I have the 100 and different settings like 7.7, 11.5 and
            > when I use those, like 11.5 for instance, it comes to 1100. In
            > other words, I do not have a 1.1GHz setting. I hope I gave
            > enough information. I'll check it next time I boot up.

            Jody, what processor is this?

            If it's a 1.1GHz Celeron the spec is to set the system clock (FSB) to
            100MHz and use a multiplier of 11.

            All Intel CPUs since the (in)famous Celeron 300A have been multiplier
            locked. Which is why you're getting 1100MHz (1.1GHz) even with it set
            higher.

            HTH
            Ben
          • Jody
            Hi DA and Ben, ... It s a AMD 1.1GHz ... haha - I was dead beat when I sent the first post w/ GB vs. MG. I knew it was wrong, but forgot to change it. (But I
            Message 5 of 20 , May 5 11:10 AM
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              Hi DA and Ben,

              > It is hertz I needed to know for my CPU.
              >
              > Jody, what processor is this?

              It's a AMD 1.1GHz

              >Oh -- now I get it!

              haha - I was dead beat when I sent the first post w/ GB vs. MG.
              I knew it was wrong, but forgot to change it. (But I always
              wondered about those file sizes, so your work was not in vain. ;)
              I'm sure others on the list benefited from it too.)

              >In this case the 1024 stuff doesn't apply since it is a frequency
              >that it is being applied to.
              >
              >1100 Mhz = 1.1 Ghz (1100/1000) so you are getting the right
              >number, but the arithmetic is a little weird.
              >
              >11.5 * 100 = 1150 not 1100, but if you get the right number
              >anyhow, who cares?

              My only concern was running my CPU at a speed that it was not
              made for. I was very much pretty sure I had it set right. ;)
              Perhaps it was the .5 that was throwing me off. I wasn't for
              sure if 1100MHz was correct, even though I really do know that.
              I've had basic electronics three times in days of old and
              actually had to apply it to resisters, diodes, transistors, and
              even a few vacuum tubes. <g>

              FWIW, my CPU seems to run at about 140+ degrees F. I though that
              was pretty hot myself. Jim Hall sent me some stuff on that in
              the past and noted that AMD ran hotter than the others bench
              tested.

              Happy Topics,
              Jody

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            • DA
              Hi Jody, I think the temperature is borderline, but acceptable. One of the things to keep in mind is: What happens when the ambient temperature goes up in the
              Message 6 of 20 , May 5 5:17 PM
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                Hi Jody,

                I think the temperature is borderline, but acceptable. One of the things to keep in mind is: What happens when the ambient temperature goes up in the summer? My server has a thermostatic fan, and you can really hear it kick in when the weather is hot. (I don't have air conditioning) The higher temperatures usually don't result in immediate failure, but reduce the life of the cpu and all the other components too.

                On one of my older computers I had temperature concerns, so I arranged the boards and wiring so the cpu was unobstructed. I then added a second fan after noticing that there was an unused hole for an additional fan.

                Another trick I have seen used is adding a piece of plastic tubing (about 3/4" inside diameter) and mount it to the case so that outside air is drawn through the tube. The end of the tube is placed next to the cpu so that the exhaust fan draws part of its air through the tube and insures that the cpu gets ventilation.

                If you have a generic computer case, it probably was not designed with thermal considerations in mind, partly because they don't know what is going to be put into the case. Reliance upon just the power supply fan to cool the computer isn't good enough if you have a lot of add-ons that clutter up the computer and also generate more heat. My IBM server came from the factory with 3 fans. I don't think they would have spent the money for those fans if they didn't consider it to be a good idea. It's been running 24/7 for the last 3-1/2 years without a glitch.

                DA

                > FWIW, my CPU seems to run at about 140+ degrees F. I though that
                > was pretty hot myself. Jim Hall sent me some stuff on that in
                > the past and noted that AMD ran hotter than the others bench
                > tested.
              • Len
                Hi Jody, All; ... The hottest I ve seen my PIII 667 MHz run is about 25 deg F above the ambient temperature. I have standard PS, Case and CPU fans. I use
                Message 7 of 20 , May 6 9:28 AM
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                  Hi Jody, All;

                  >FWIW, my CPU seems to run at about 140+ degrees F. I though that
                  >was pretty hot myself.

                  The hottest I've seen my PIII 667 MHz run is about 25 deg F above
                  the ambient temperature. I have standard PS, Case and CPU fans.
                  I use MBProbe http://mbprobe.livewiredev.com/
                  to monitor the voltages, fan speeds and temps.

                  Based on what I've read, AMD CPUs do run hotter than Intel units
                  and AMD gurus recommend using higher output CPU fans than those
                  normally used by system builders.

                  Now, for anyone who cares :-))

                  Scientific Standards
                  1 teraX (10 E12) = 1000 gigaX 1 tHz (tera hertz)
                  1 gigaX (10 E9) = 1000 megaX 1 gHz
                  1 megaX (10 E6) = 1000 kiloX 1 mHz
                  1 kiloX (10 E3) = 1000 X 1 kHz

                  Computer nomenclature
                  1 teraX (1024 ^4) = 1024 gigaX 1 TB (1 tera bytes)
                  1 gigaX (1024 ^3) = 1024 megaX 1 GB
                  1 megaX (1024 ^2) = 1024 kiloX 1 MB
                  1 kiloX (1024 ^1) = 1024 X 1 KB

                  10 Exx = 10 to the power xx or exponent xx
                  1024 ^x = 1024 to the power x or exponent x
                  The computer nomenclature is generally accepted but not a standard.
                • Jody
                  Hi DA and Len, Thanks for the replies! We normally keep the house at 74-78 degrees with a 1 degree A/C kick-in difference. (It s strange how we keep our
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 6 10:27 AM
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                    Hi DA and Len,

                    Thanks for the replies!

                    We normally keep the house at 74-78 degrees with a 1 degree A/C
                    kick-in difference. (It's strange how we keep our houses in the
                    winter/summer. We make it fairly cold in the summer all the way
                    down to 74, but in the winter, we like it 80-82. ;)

                    I've had the sides off my tower since day one and also got the
                    large one for better air circulation. I have a PII ball bearing
                    fan for my CPU, but did not get the others yet to mount on the
                    back of the case. I'll try putting a full size floor fan by its
                    side. My ceiling fan circulates enough air, but then I have to
                    put up with the "cold" and papers blowing around.

                    Off-topic...
                    In the long distance telephone switches I use to work in we had
                    to keep the A/C at 68 degrees which blew up from an A/D'd tile
                    floor with large fans at the top of each bay, shelves for PCB's
                    about 1' x 3' x 6' in metal cabinets about 3' deep. There were
                    rows and rows of them. Man, it was always cold on the
                    graveyard/maintenance shift. (We could only do maintenance from
                    12:00 to 4-5:00am unless of course the whole switch went down -
                    which happened in very rare cases due to redundancy.) Out of
                    over 10 years of that work I never had one full outage. :)
                    Companies like MCI have a fit when they start loosing 5 million
                    an hour in billing revenue. <g>

                    >I think the temperature is borderline, but acceptable. One of
                    >the things to keep in mind is: What happens when the ambient
                    >temperature goes up in the summer? My server has a thermostatic
                    >fan, and you can really hear it kick in when the weather is hot.
                    >(I don't have air conditioning) The higher temperatures usually
                    >don't result in immediate failure, but reduce the life of the cpu
                    >and all the other components too.


                    Happy Topics,
                    Jody

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                  • Jim Hall
                    Len,Jody, et al, ... FWIW The PIII will shut itself down if it over heats. The PIV will slow itself down until the temp is within normal operating range. The
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 6 10:28 AM
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                      Len,Jody, et al,

                      At 09:28 AM 5/6/2002 -0700, you wrote:
                      >Hi Jody, All;
                      >
                      >>FWIW, my CPU seems to run at about 140+ degrees F. I though that
                      >>was pretty hot myself.
                      >
                      >The hottest I've seen my PIII 667 MHz run is about 25 deg F above
                      >the ambient temperature. I have standard PS, Case and CPU fans.
                      >I use MBProbe http://mbprobe.livewiredev.com/
                      >to monitor the voltages, fan speeds and temps.
                      >
                      >Based on what I've read, AMD CPUs do run hotter than Intel units
                      >and AMD gurus recommend using higher output CPU fans than those
                      >normally used by system builders.


                      FWIW

                      The PIII will shut itself down if it over heats.

                      The PIV will slow itself down until the temp is within normal operating range.

                      The AMD's just burn themselves up (smoke and fire both).

                      You can see the test results here:

                      http://www4.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q3/010917/heatvideo-01.html

                      WATCH YOUR HEATSINKS & FANS

                      BTW the thermal paste between your heatsink and processor will dry out in time and will not be as effective.

                      It is a good idea to replace it every year or so, especially with these high speed/temperature processors.

                      http://www.electronics-cooling.com/Resources/EC_Articles/SEP96/sep96_01.htm

                      http://www.overclockers.com/articles531/

                      Obviously, dirty fans are not good either.

                      Just my 2 cents worth.

                      Regards,

                      Jim
                    • Nicholas Kormanik
                      I ve had the sides off my tower since day one and also got the large one for better air circulation. How in the world can you stand the noise? I m, in fact,
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 6 11:31 AM
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                        "I've had the sides off my tower since day one and also got the large
                        one for better air circulation."

                        How in the world can you stand the noise? I'm, in fact, thinking of
                        covering/boxing my own tower with some thick noise insulation material
                        --- I love silence!

                        Nicholas



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Jody [mailto:av1611@...]
                        Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 11:28 AM
                        To: ntb-OffTopic@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: CPU Speed, Heat, etc. (was Re: [NTO] Math MB > GB)


                        Hi DA and Len,

                        Thanks for the replies!

                        We normally keep the house at 74-78 degrees with a 1 degree A/C kick-in
                        difference. (It's strange how we keep our houses in the winter/summer.
                        We make it fairly cold in the summer all the way down to 74, but in the
                        winter, we like it 80-82. ;)

                        I've had the sides off my tower since day one and also got the large one
                        for better air circulation. I have a PII ball bearing fan for my CPU,
                        but did not get the others yet to mount on the back of the case. I'll
                        try putting a full size floor fan by its side. My ceiling fan
                        circulates enough air, but then I have to put up with the "cold" and
                        papers blowing around.

                        Off-topic...
                        In the long distance telephone switches I use to work in we had to keep
                        the A/C at 68 degrees which blew up from an A/D'd tile floor with large
                        fans at the top of each bay, shelves for PCB's about 1' x 3' x 6' in
                        metal cabinets about 3' deep. There were rows and rows of them. Man,
                        it was always cold on the graveyard/maintenance shift. (We could only
                        do maintenance from 12:00 to 4-5:00am unless of course the whole switch
                        went down - which happened in very rare cases due to redundancy.) Out
                        of over 10 years of that work I never had one full outage. :) Companies
                        like MCI have a fit when they start loosing 5 million an hour in billing
                        revenue. <g>

                        >I think the temperature is borderline, but acceptable. One of the
                        >things to keep in mind is: What happens when the ambient temperature
                        >goes up in the summer? My server has a thermostatic fan, and you can
                        >really hear it kick in when the weather is hot. (I don't have air
                        >conditioning) The higher temperatures usually don't result in
                        >immediate failure, but reduce the life of the cpu and all the other
                        >components too.


                        Happy Topics,
                        Jody

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                      • DA
                        Hi Jody, ... Just something to watch out for: I had a computer that would overheat the disk drives if I removed the cover because the fans then couldn t draw
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 6 11:31 AM
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                          Hi Jody,

                          > I've had the sides off my tower since day one and also got the
                          > large one for better air circulation.

                          Just something to watch out for:
                          I had a computer that would overheat the disk drives if I removed
                          the cover because the fans then couldn't draw air over the drives.
                          Removing the sides/cover upsets the air flow pattern.

                          DA
                        • Jody
                          Hi DA and Nick, ... I ve been listening to machines making background noise for near 30 years now. It is when I don t hear it that I start getting concerned.
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 6 3:18 PM
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                            Hi DA and Nick,

                            >> I've had the sides off my tower since day one and also got the
                            >> large one for better air circulation.

                            > How in the world can you stand the noise? I'm, in fact,
                            > thinking of covering/boxing my own tower with some thick noise
                            > insulation material --- I love silence!

                            I've been listening to machines making background noise for near
                            30 years now. It is when I don't hear it that I start getting
                            concerned. ;)

                            Off topic warning... (DA, I replied to you below.)
                            In large computer rooms, well outside the room itself somewhere,
                            there are huge rectifiers which convert AC (480) to DC. The
                            equipment I worked on varied but most of it had 24 huge batteries
                            (about 1' across x 2' high x 2' deep). Each of those was a cell
                            like in a car battery, the total making up the battery itself.
                            The battery system was of course used as back up power, but also
                            used to filter the DC from the rectifier outputs which would
                            still have an AC ripple riding on the DC which is straight lined,
                            at least on an Oscilloscope. The output of them is a pure -48VDC
                            and was fed into each frame's power supplies having the shelves
                            of large PCB's and then split up into the various low DC voltages
                            needed. Anyhow, all that equipment makes a humming noise.

                            Do you know why the rectifiers hum?


                            scroll down


                            down


                            down


                            Because they forgot the words, silly. ;)

                            >Just something to watch out for:
                            >I had a computer that would overheat the disk drives if I removed
                            >the cover because the fans then couldn't draw air over the
                            >drives. Removing the sides/cover upsets the air flow pattern.

                            That makes good sense if one has all the fans installed he
                            should. I have an onboard fan on my video card, one on the CPU,
                            and one inside my pwr supply which sucks out. I hooked up my
                            $8.98 floor/window fan from WalMart on the side of my computer.
                            The pwr supply no longer has hot air blowing out the back, my
                            hard drives cooled down considerably, and there is cool air
                            flowing out the other side of the computer. (I have to check the
                            CPU in CMOS.)

                            Off topic warning...
                            In the old days we had to have a number of those big fans on
                            stands (like in public schools) to help keep the equipment cooled
                            down because AC was not always there <g> so we sometimes had to
                            go to emergency procedures 'cause the batteries were only good
                            for so long, and one switch I was at in the Army did not have
                            reliable generators. Civilians kept them up, so it was sort of
                            out of our hands. Those were the good 'ol days when there were
                            always problem to troubleshoot and quite a challenge to keep up
                            and running. Some military Autovon switches back then would go
                            down for days at a time. ;)

                            Happy Topics,
                            Jody

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                          • DA
                            Hi Jody, I ve done that WalMart trick too. It sounds like you have everything thermal under control. DA
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 6 6:38 PM
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                              Hi Jody,

                              I've done that WalMart trick too. It sounds like you have
                              everything thermal under control.

                              DA

                              > I hooked up my
                              > $8.98 floor/window fan from WalMart on the side of my computer.
                            • Jody
                              Hi DA, You know, if they do not sell them, I bet a fella in the A/C and Heating could fabricate a small A/C unit that could mount wherever and really have it
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 7 7:42 AM
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                                Hi DA,

                                You know, if they do not sell them, I bet a fella in the A/C and
                                Heating could fabricate a small A/C unit that could mount
                                wherever and really have it done right then. ;)

                                (Silly me forgot that the fax stuff on the other thread was a
                                matter of making the fax the default printer, or selected printer
                                when fax'n. I would image all the guy would have to do is setup
                                his DUN (if not already, connect, go through the fax motions
                                including picking the fax for the printer, and it should fly.)

                                >I've done that WalMart trick too. It sounds like you have
                                >everything thermal under control.
                                >
                                >DA
                                >
                                >> I hooked up my $8.98 floor/window fan from WalMart on the side
                                >> of my computer.


                                Happy Topics,
                                Jody

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                              • hsavage
                                ... Hi Jody, DA, Overclockers and other experimenters have already Been there, Done that . Thermoelectric cooling units, and even, water(fluid) cooling units
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 7 10:45 AM
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                                  On 5/7/02 9:42 AM, Jody wrote:
                                  > Hi DA,
                                  >
                                  > You know, if they do not sell them, I bet a fella in the A/C and
                                  > Heating could fabricate a small A/C unit that could mount
                                  > wherever and really have it done right then. ;)
                                  >

                                  Hi Jody, DA,

                                  Overclockers and other experimenters have already "Been there, Done
                                  that". Thermoelectric cooling units, and even, water(fluid) cooling
                                  units have been adapted to CPU's for quite a while now.

                                  The thermo-units are a solid state devices that has been around for some
                                  time that mounts on the cpu just like a cpu-fan, the fluid units are
                                  like a car radiator. A reservoir that water is circulated through is
                                  physically attached to the cpu.

                                  The water is circulated through the reservoir, just as an engine block,
                                  then out through a radiator to dissipate heat.

                                  hrs
                                • Jim Hall
                                  Jody, ... The old Cray SuperComputers had the CPU s and Ram in a refrigerator.:-) You can get cases today that come with A/C units. COOL is the word!! Jim
                                  Message 16 of 20 , May 7 3:55 PM
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                                    Jody,

                                    At 09:42 AM 5/7/2002 -0500, you wrote:
                                    >Hi DA,
                                    >
                                    >You know, if they do not sell them, I bet a fella in the A/C and
                                    >Heating could fabricate a small A/C unit that could mount
                                    >wherever and really have it done right then. ;)

                                    The old Cray SuperComputers had the CPU's and Ram in a refrigerator.:-)

                                    You can get cases today that come with A/C units.

                                    COOL is the word!!

                                    Jim
                                  • Jody
                                    Hi Jim, ... ARGH! That is as bad as my rectifiers humming because they forgot the words. ;) Happy Topics, Jody The NoteTab Off-Topic List
                                    Message 17 of 20 , May 7 4:25 PM
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                                      Hi Jim,

                                      >The old Cray SuperComputers had the CPU's and Ram in a refrigerator.:-)
                                      >
                                      >You can get cases today that come with A/C units.
                                      >
                                      >COOL is the word!!

                                      ARGH! That is as bad as my rectifiers humming because they
                                      forgot the words. ;)


                                      Happy Topics,
                                      Jody

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                                    • DA
                                      Hi Jody/Jim, I don t think Jim was joking, were you Jim? DA
                                      Message 18 of 20 , May 7 9:59 PM
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                                        Hi Jody/Jim,

                                        I don't think Jim was joking, were you Jim?

                                        DA

                                        Jody wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hi Jim,
                                        >
                                        > >The old Cray SuperComputers had the CPU's and Ram in a refrigerator.:-)
                                        > >
                                        > >You can get cases today that come with A/C units.
                                        > >
                                        > >COOL is the word!!
                                        >
                                        > ARGH! That is as bad as my rectifiers humming because they
                                        > forgot the words. ;)
                                        >
                                        > Happy Topics,
                                        > Jody
                                        >
                                        > The NoteTab Off-Topic List
                                        > mailto:ntb-OffTopic-Subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > mailto:ntb-OffTopic-UnSubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      • Jim Hall
                                        DA, Nope, I was as serious as a heart attack, they really did.
                                        Message 19 of 20 , May 7 11:54 PM
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                                          DA,

                                          Nope, I was as serious as a heart attack, they really did.

                                          At 09:59 PM 5/7/2002 -0700, you wrote:
                                          >Hi Jody/Jim,
                                          >
                                          >I don't think Jim was joking, were you Jim?
                                          >
                                          >DA
                                          >
                                          >Jody wrote:
                                          >>
                                          >> Hi Jim,
                                          >>
                                          >> >The old Cray SuperComputers had the CPU's and Ram in a refrigerator.:-)
                                          >> >
                                          >> >You can get cases today that come with A/C units.
                                          >> >
                                          >> >COOL is the word!!
                                          >>
                                          >> ARGH! That is as bad as my rectifiers humming because they
                                          >> forgot the words. ;)
                                          >>
                                        • Jody
                                          Hi Jim, I certainly believed they have/had the units. What I was talking about was what I thought was a play on words. The refrigerators were certainly cool,
                                          Message 20 of 20 , May 8 7:22 AM
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hi Jim,

                                            I certainly believed they have/had the units. What I was talking
                                            about was what I thought was a play on words. The refrigerators
                                            were certainly cool, but they are "way too kewl" (COOL) also. ;)
                                            Or, is COOL an acronym?

                                            I think it was Harvey that mentioned they already had some type
                                            of thermal control units. I was thinking more on the lines of an
                                            everyday (miniature though) A/C unit say the size of a pwr supply
                                            that would mount right inside a tower case where a pwr supply
                                            would go. It would cool big time, and also draw the moisture
                                            out of the air and help with corrosion. A long time NoteTabber,
                                            Dr. ??? in Hawaii, told me that they had to buy new computers
                                            every two years because of the humidly and salty air destroying
                                            them.

                                            >>I don't think Jim was joking, were you Jim?
                                            >>
                                            >>DA
                                            >>
                                            >>Jody wrote:
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Hi Jim,
                                            >>>
                                            >>>>The old Cray SuperComputers had the CPU's and Ram in a refrigerator.:-)
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>>You can get cases today that come with A/C units.
                                            >>> >
                                            >>> >COOL is the word!!
                                            >>>
                                            >>> ARGH! That is as bad as my rectifiers humming because they
                                            >>> forgot the words. ;)


                                            Happy Topics,
                                            Jody

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