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Re: [NTO] Hard Drive Backup

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  • Paul M. King
    Hi Wren: I saw your letter to Phil and have a couple of questions as I am considering using an older machine for backup instead of big Zip discs. Paul King ...
    Message 1 of 17 , May 5, 2000
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      Hi Wren:

      I saw your letter to Phil and have a couple of
      questions as I am considering using an older
      machine for backup instead of big Zip discs.

      Paul King


      At 02:01 AM 5/6/00 -0400, you wrote:
      >Hi Phil,
      >I've been using older machines as an active backup for about
      >ten years. It works great, you keep any critical software and
      >all your data on both.

      Are there any compatibility problems using say DOS 6.22
      on a 486dx with WIN98SE on a 300mhz machine?


      >For the size data files we deal with today I wouldn't consider
      >anything except network transfer.

      Do you mean a LAN setup within your own home?


      >Good Luck,
      > Wren
    • Wren McMains
      Hi Phil, We re all assuming you want to still use the second computer, either for other purposes, or as a active backup . If not, I d bet you could hook up
      Message 2 of 17 , May 5, 2000
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        Hi Phil,

        We're all assuming you want to still use the second computer,
        either for other purposes, or as a "active backup". If not, I'd
        bet you could hook up the second drive internally for almost
        nothing.

        I've been using older machines as an active backup for about
        ten years. It works great, you keep any critical software and
        all your data on both. When (not if) your primary machine
        fails, you can use your backup instantly.

        Ten years ago (when the backup drive was 30M total) I could
        use a cable, but even then it was slow. For the size data
        files we deal with today I wouldn't consider anything except
        network transfer. The cost is low. I use home grown tools,
        but Briefcase or other programs can help you automate daily
        synchronization of key data directories. I even use Backup
        to do full backups to network disks on occasion.

        As pointed out, once you can put a CD writer into the mix you
        have even more options, but I still think a network is the
        most important element.

        Good Luck,
        Wren
      • Marco Bernardini
        *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro* Hi all! A friend of mine wrote to the webmaster of www.cmirl.ge.infn.it (INFN -
        Message 3 of 17 , May 6, 2000
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          *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro*
          Hi all!

          A friend of mine wrote to the webmaster of www.cmirl.ge.infn.it (INFN -
          Istituto Nazionale Fisica Nucleare - National Institute for Nuclear Phisic)
          because that site is too slow.
          That webmaster replies it's an ISP problem, but I know my friend uses a
          nationwide provider, so I think the problem is elsewhere (I suppose on
          University of Genoa - unige.it).
          I need some traceroutes from around the world to see where the bottleneck
          really is: are here some kind souls to make a DOS traceroute to
          www.cmirl.ge.infn.it and send results to me?

          TIA!

          Marco Bernardini
        • Larry Thomas
          Hi Phil, ... have most of the disks for the stuff that is on it, but I would like to backup all the stuff I don t have disks for, plus a bunch of games I have
          Message 4 of 17 , May 6, 2000
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            Hi Phil,

            At 07:43 PM 05/05/2000 -0700, you wrote:
            >I have a machine with Win 98-2nd Edition on it, 64 megs ram, 10.8 HD. I
            have most of the disks for the stuff that is on it, but I would like to
            backup all the stuff I don't have disks for, plus a bunch of games I have
            made, and a bunch of other files I would hate to lose.
            >
            >I have another machine with a newly formatted 2.7 gig hard drive. Internal.
            >
            >My thought is: That hard drive would make a great back up disk. Can this
            be done? Is there any way to hook it externally to my new machine and use
            it for a backup?
            >
            >Thanks for your help, even if I can't do it.

            I just purchased a new machine and received it on March 10th. My brother
            installed my old 8.4 Gb hard drive as a secondary master on this machine
            and I purchased a pair of drive trays for the machine. The drive trays
            cost about $25.00 for the two and allow me to easily insert and remove
            drives from my computer. I have no skills at fooling around with hard
            drives and such at all and this is easy for me with the drive trays.

            The drive tray literally turns my hard drive into a removeable media
            device. It comes with a mounting rail that you plug the com ribbon and the
            power cord into instead of the hard drive. In the back of this rail is a
            female connector for the tray which holds your hard drive. You slide the
            tray into this rail and the back of the tray has a male connector that
            matches when you slide it in and and handle on the front closes and latches
            the tray to secure the connection. Inside the tray is another com ribbon
            to connect to the actual drive and another power cord. You connect this to
            the drive and carefully place it into the tray and place the lid/top on the
            tray and the drive can be safely inserted or removed with the power off on
            your computer.

            There is also a key on the front of the tray and I can disable the drive by
            turning the computer off and unlocking the drive with this key. When I
            restart the computer, it cannot see the drive. If I do this with my
            primary master, the computer will boot from the os on my secondary master.
            It makes a great backup drive especially with a software multi-partition os
            manager program that I have called System Commander 2000.

            Good Luck,

            Larry
            larryt@...
          • Marco Bernardini
            *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro* Alle 02.37 Saturday 06/05/2000 -0500, Larry Thomas ha mandato a Marco ... I hear of
            Message 5 of 17 , May 6, 2000
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              *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro*

              Alle 02.37 Saturday 06/05/2000 -0500, Larry Thomas ha mandato a Marco
              questo messaggio:

              >The drive tray literally turns my hard drive into a removeable media
              >device.

              I hear of trays locking the disk while computer is turned on: a must, if
              you have kids!

              Bye

              Marco Bernardini
            • Wren McMains
              Hi Paul, ... You need something on the old machine which supports a network. Usually that means at least Windows for Work Groups 3.11. Or assuming you need
              Message 6 of 17 , May 6, 2000
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                Hi Paul,

                > Are there any compatibility problems using say DOS 6.22
                > on a 486dx with WIN98SE on a 300mhz machine?

                You need something on the old machine which supports a network.
                Usually that means at least Windows for Work Groups 3.11. Or
                assuming you need keep long file names Windows 95. (Years ago
                you might have used Lantastic or NetWare, but networking is built
                into all the newer MS OS's.)

                > >For the size data files we deal with today I wouldn't consider
                > >anything except network transfer.
                >
                > Do you mean a LAN setup within your own home?

                Yes. As I said the old machine can be an active backup for a
                critical application that you can't afford to be without for
                a few days while awaiting a repair. I also use it to backup
                ALL data files.

                -Wren
              • Jody
                Hi Marco, ... Should me a url for a freeware Windows utility and I ll check. Bye for now, Jody Adair Prov. 3:5-7; 4:23 http://www.sureword.com/sojourner
                Message 7 of 17 , May 6, 2000
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                  Hi Marco,

                  > I need some traceroutes from around the world to see where the
                  > bottleneck really is: are here some kind souls to make a DOS
                  > traceroute to www.cmirl.ge.infn.it and send results to me?

                  Should me a url for a freeware Windows utility and I'll check.

                  Bye for now,
                  Jody Adair
                  Prov. 3:5-7; 4:23

                  http://www.sureword.com/sojourner
                  http://www.sureword.com/kjb1611
                  http://www.sureword.com/notetab
                • Lawrence M Hamilton, Jr.
                  Hi Jody, ... This is what I used for Marco, lots more than just TraceRoute. http://www.samspade.org/ssw/ Also, If I am not mistaken, TRACERT.EXE is a
                  Message 8 of 17 , May 6, 2000
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                    Hi Jody,

                    On Sat, 06 May 2000 20:06:56 -0500 Jody <KJB1611@...> writes:
                    > Hi Marco,
                    >
                    > > I need some traceroutes from around the world to see where the
                    > > bottleneck really is: are here some kind souls to make a DOS
                    > > traceroute to www.cmirl.ge.infn.it and send results to me?
                    >
                    > Should me a url for a freeware Windows utility and I'll check.

                    This is what I used for Marco, lots more than just TraceRoute.

                    http://www.samspade.org/ssw/

                    Also, If I am not mistaken, TRACERT.EXE is a traceroute commandline
                    program that comes with(Win 9x/NT). Just go to commanline and type the
                    program name and it will give you its options.

                    For another free option that is smaller and does what SamSpade does wih a
                    batch file and some freeware commandline programs, see:

                    http://www.pc-help.org/trace/

                    This is another thing that I have thought about enabling NoteTab to do.
                    (Boy I really opened myself up with that one, didn't I?)

                    HTH,

                    Larry Hamilton, Jr. lmhamilton@...
                    Hamilton National Genealogical Society, Inc.
                    http://www.HamiltonGenSociety.org/
                    My Web Site: http://notlimaH.tripod.com



                    ________________________________________________________________
                    YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
                    Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
                    Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
                    http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
                  • Jim Hall
                    Hi Phil, FWIW You ve heard all of the other methods but here is an article about mirroring. There is no question that with todays large drives, the best way
                    Message 9 of 17 , May 6, 2000
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                      Hi Phil,


                      FWIW You've heard all of the other methods but here is an article about
                      mirroring.

                      There is no question that with todays' large drives, the best way to
                      backup a hard drive is with another hard drive.

                      Aside from Mirror Technology which is continuous and real time, you need
                      a scheduler and the upgrade for the standard one in Windows, allows you
                      to schedule and backup to several different media. Regardless of the
                      media or method (including LAN) it takes time to backup several GB of
                      data so scheduling it to occur while you sleep is a good way to avoid
                      the inconvenience of waiting for a backup to finish.

                      I use all of the methods described on the list at various times for
                      various reasons.

                      If you would like to know more about the pro's and cons for any given
                      method, feel free to send me a private missle.



                      For Mirroring:

                      http://www.pcworld.com/current_issue/article/0,1212,12315,00.html


                      For Backup Exec (formerly Seagate, now Veritas)


                      http://www.conner.com/support/software/


                      http://www.driverforum.com/tapebackup/385.html



                      Regards

                      Jim
                    • Lawrence M Hamilton, Jr.
                      Hi Jim, ... Should such an explosive comment be permitted on the list? Perhaps you meant missive . Bad pun, I know, but I couldn t help myself. (Nor did
                      Message 10 of 17 , May 6, 2000
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                        Hi Jim,

                        On Sat, 6 May 2000 19:35:17 -0700 "Jim Hall" <jehall@...> writes:
                        > If you would like to know more about the pro's and cons for any
                        > given
                        > method, feel free to send me a private missle.

                        Should such an "explosive" comment be permitted on the list? <g>

                        Perhaps you meant "missive".

                        Bad pun, I know, but I couldn't help myself. (Nor did I try! <vbg>)

                        Larry

                        "Incorrigible Punster, Do Not Incorrige"
                        ________________________________________________________________
                        YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
                        Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
                        Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
                        http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
                      • Jody
                        Hi Lawrence & Marco, ... I m originating in Milton, FL via local access to ATT. 05/07/00 00:10:39 ping www.cmirl.ge.infn.it Ping www.cmirl.ge.infn.it
                        Message 11 of 17 , May 6, 2000
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                          Hi Lawrence & Marco,

                          > www.cmirl.ge.infn.it and send results to me?

                          > http://www.samspade.org/ssw/

                          I'm originating in Milton, FL via local access to ATT.

                          05/07/00 00:10:39 ping www.cmirl.ge.infn.it
                          Ping www.cmirl.ge.infn.it (130.251.168.218) ...
                          1 Addr:130.251.168.218, RTT: 359ms, TTL: 103
                          2 Addr:130.251.168.218, RTT: 349ms, TTL: 103
                          3 Addr:130.251.168.218, RTT: 363ms, TTL: 103
                          4 Addr:130.251.168.218, RTT: 341ms, TTL: 103
                          5 Addr:130.251.168.218, RTT: 337ms, TTL: 103
                          6 Addr:130.251.168.218, RTT: 342ms, TTL: 103
                          7 Addr:130.251.168.218, RTT: 337ms, TTL: 103
                          8 Addr:130.251.168.218, RTT: 336ms, TTL: 103
                          9 Addr:130.251.168.218, RTT: 359ms, TTL: 103
                          10 Addr:130.251.168.218, RTT: 957ms, TTL: 103

                          05/07/00 00:14:38 Fast traceroute www.cmirl.ge.infn.it
                          Trace www.cmirl.ge.infn.it (130.251.168.218) ...
                          1 199.70.249.154 140ms 132ms 135ms TTL: 0 (No rDNS)
                          2 12.77.244.129 150ms 134ms 161ms TTL: 0 (129.jacksonville-05-10rs.fl.dial-access.att.net ok)
                          3 199.70.254.113 141ms 137ms 162ms TTL: 0 (No rDNS)
                          4 12.127.11.89 150ms 136ms 154ms TTL: 0 (gbr1-a31s4.ormfl.ip.att.net bogus rDNS: host not found [authoritative])
                          5 12.122.5.125 143ms 135ms 167ms TTL: 0 (gbr4-p70.ormfl.ip.att.net bogus rDNS: host not found [authoritative])
                          6 12.122.2.181 149ms 147ms 149ms TTL: 0 (gbr3-p20.attga.ip.att.net bogus rDNS: host not found [authoritative])
                          7 12.122.1.142 147ms 167ms 157ms TTL: 0 (gbr4-p60.attga.ip.att.net bogus rDNS: host not found [authoritative])
                          8 12.122.2.178 165ms 160ms 176ms TTL: 0 (gbr4-p80.wswdc.ip.att.net bogus rDNS: host not found [authoritative])
                          9 12.123.9.53 164ms 163ms 164ms TTL: 0 (ggr1-p370.wswdc.ip.att.net bogus rDNS: host not found [authoritative])
                          10 192.205.32.134 173ms 171ms 184ms TTL: 0 (att-gw.dc.uu.net bogus rDNS: host not found [authoritative])
                          11 152.63.35.198 164ms 163ms 162ms TTL: 0 (159.ATM2-0.XR1.DCA8.ALTER.NET ok)
                          12 146.188.163.74 166ms 160ms 164ms TTL: 0 (289.ATM2-0.TR1.DCA8.ALTER.NET ok)
                          13 146.188.138.118 184ms 181ms 194ms TTL: 0 (115.ATM7-0.TR1.NYC1.ALTER.NET ok)
                          14 146.188.179.17 185ms 183ms 241ms TTL: 0 (199.ATM6-0.XR1.NYC4.ALTER.NET ok)
                          15 152.63.21.201 187ms 186ms 193ms TTL: 0 (189.ATM6-0.GW9.NYC4.ALTER.NET ok)
                          16 157.130.19.22 187ms 184ms 183ms TTL: 0 (dante3-gw.customer.ALTER.NET ok)
                          17 212.1.200.106 337ms 317ms 318ms TTL: 0 (ny-na.garr.net bogus rDNS: host not found [authoritative])
                          18 193.206.134.9 328ms 323ms 326ms TTL: 0 (mi-na-1.garr.net ok)
                          19 193.206.134.70 328ms 332ms 345ms TTL: 0 (ge-mi-2.garr.net ok)
                          20 193.206.132.86 336ms 337ms 360ms TTL: 0 (unige-rc.ge.garr.net ok)
                          21 130.251.253.178 337ms 339ms 337ms TTL: 0 (No rDNS)
                          22 130.251.203.2 332ms 337ms 339ms TTL: 0 (No rDNS)
                          23 130.251.206.134 339ms 354ms 342ms TTL: 0 (catapuggia.csita.unige.it ok)
                          24 130.251.168.218 377ms 362ms 337ms TTL:103 (cmeteo.fisica.unige.it ok)

                          Bye for now,
                          Jody Adair
                          Prov. 3:5-7; 4:23

                          http://www.sureword.com/sojourner
                          http://www.sureword.com/kjb1611
                          http://www.sureword.com/notetab
                        • Marco Bernardini
                          *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro* ... Thanks to everybody! I m the only one (I live 100 km from Genoa) having a long
                          Message 12 of 17 , May 7, 2000
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                            *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro*
                            > I need some traceroutes from around the world to see where the bottleneck
                            > really is

                            Thanks to everybody!
                            I'm the only one (I live 100 km from Genoa) having a long time connection,
                            more than 7 secs, to that site.
                            I make a trace using our server line and I see the signal going to
                            Switzerland before to bounce in Genoa.
                            But from London the line goes to New York to reach Italy: maybe it's better
                            to hire non-alcoholic electricians to make Internet backbones ;-)))

                            A good program for tracing, pinging, whoising (uh! a new verb for my
                            smellchecker!) is the free and fancy CyberKit:
                            http://www.cyberkit.net

                            Have a nice day

                            Marco Bernardini
                          • Jody
                            Hi Marco, ... Maybe it is not the drunkard s problem, at least not his real one. ;) I don t know how they do your routing over there, but the latest and
                            Message 13 of 17 , May 7, 2000
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                              Hi Marco,

                              > I'm the only one (I live 100 km from Genoa) having a long time
                              > connection, more than 7 secs, to that site.
                              > I make a trace using our server line and I see the signal going
                              > to Switzerland before to bounce in Genoa.
                              > But from London the line goes to New York to reach Italy: maybe
                              > it's better to hire non-alcoholic electricians to make Internet
                              > backbones ;-)))

                              Maybe it is not the drunkard's problem, at least not his real
                              one. ;) I don't know how they do your routing over there, but
                              the latest and greatest 10 years ago here when I worked in long
                              distance switching was SS7, a signalling and routing protocol.
                              One of the routing features is called "Look ahead routing." The
                              setup is pretty basic in that there are route choices. They work
                              in a descending order from the best route to least desired. we
                              would set our switches to try at least seven different routes
                              before returning an all circuits busy (ATB) condition. If the
                              route is faulty (no signal received) the next choice is tried.
                              The same with an ATB condition. In reality, all the routes are
                              checked while the call is trying to be connected. There was also
                              time-out options to set for each route. If the those times are
                              too long, perhaps seven seconds even <g>, and under a faulty
                              condition it will hang there until time-out occurs the proceed to
                              the next route.

                              One can place a call from say Miami, FL USA trying to get to NYC,
                              NY which has "express fiber" with no switching involved for first
                              and more route choices. On Mother's Day, it would not be
                              uncommon for that same call to do something wild like go to:

                              Atlanta, GA > Seattle, WA >
                              Honolulu, HI, > Tokyo, JP >
                              Honolulu, HI, San Francisco, CA >
                              Dallas, TX, > Memphis, TN
                              New Orleans, LA > [catch this -->] Miami, FL > NYC, NY.

                              Insane? Nope. Would you rather get an ATB signal or start
                              getting ring back tone (RBT) in less than a couple a seconds. ;)
                              Or would you like to go high and dry just to have DUN time out or
                              connect in 7 seconds until the problem is fixed, if fixable.

                              Of course it is fixable with fiber right into your modem <G>, but
                              is the equipment now being used able to make it quicker. Leaving
                              out of Milton here with old worn out copper till it hits fiber to
                              the local telephone company (TELCO) then shot to a TELCO in
                              Pensacola takes time before even getting switched to an Other
                              Common Carrier (OCC). A five second connect time for me is
                              normal and four of those is just getting to an OCC, or ATT in my
                              case because I use ATT. (Anything other than ATT is an OCC. :) It
                              came about them MCI sued ATT for being a monopoly and then all
                              the *other* companies came about.)

                              Connect time though is going to be different from just running a
                              trace when one is already connected as you know. My guess is,
                              Internet connections are at the bottom of the totem pole, at
                              least over here, because there is no charge to us other than our
                              monthly flat rate. Routing is also done in a priority order,
                              some services and call types get priority of the better route
                              choices over others. Local access can also hang while seeking an
                              available line for dial tone returned or switching out onto the
                              carrier lines. A connect or speed of a connect can only be as
                              fast as its slowest link.

                              Now we could go back to ring down circuits where you crank a
                              generator by hand sending AC to a switchboard where the busy body
                              noisy gossiping operator has to plug into the switchboard and ask
                              you who you want to call, then plug into that persons line and
                              rings them via a generator of course listening in the whole time
                              so others kept getting a ring no answer trying to get the
                              operator. ;) I actually got into the field when they still
                              taught those in school, but I don't think there any left in the
                              field except maybe some real desolate areas.

                              >http://www.cyberkit.net

                              ;)

                              Happy Topics,
                              Jody

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                            • Marco Bernardini
                              *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro* ... I suppose here it s the same. When I tell 7 secs it was traceroute response
                              Message 14 of 17 , May 7, 2000
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                                *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro*

                                Alle 14.56 Sunday 07/05/2000 -0500, Jody ha mandato a Marco questo messaggio:

                                >Maybe it is not the drunkard's problem, at least not his real
                                >one. ;) I don't know how they do your routing over there, but
                                >the latest and greatest 10 years ago here when I worked in long
                                >distance switching was SS7, a signalling and routing protocol.

                                I suppose here it's the same.
                                When I tell 7 secs it was traceroute response (7000 msec), not browsing time...

                                Thanks for your interesting infos about US lines.
                                I'm just back from our Telecom site, where I look for a decent permanent
                                line (ADSL aren't still available in our area).

                                For a 64Kb line I must pay:
                                - 300$ for the activation
                                - 180$/monthly fee
                                of course everything + taxes 20%...

                                A 2,4 kb (Yes! 2,4 kb!) is:
                                - 150$ activation
                                - 120$ monthly

                                But there are big discounts for 155 Mb lines connected to Austria...

                                Who understand Italian can laugh at
                                http://www.telecomitalia.it/perlavorare/cdn_768@...

                                An ADSL (where available) is 1000$/yr.

                                So you understand why less than 15% of Italians are using the Internet.

                                Bye!

                                Marco Bernardini
                              • Jody
                                Hi Marco, ... Yes, that is robbery! Bye for now, Jody Adair Prov. 3:5-7; 4:23 http://www.sureword.com/sojourner http://www.sureword.com/kjb1611
                                Message 15 of 17 , May 7, 2000
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                                  Hi Marco,

                                  >For a 64Kb line I must pay:
                                  >- 300$ for the activation
                                  >- 180$/monthly fee
                                  >of course everything + taxes 20%...
                                  >
                                  >A 2,4 kb (Yes! 2,4 kb!) is:
                                  >- 150$ activation
                                  >- 120$ monthly

                                  >So you understand why less than 15% of Italians are using the Internet.

                                  Yes, that is robbery!

                                  Bye for now,
                                  Jody Adair
                                  Prov. 3:5-7; 4:23

                                  http://www.sureword.com/sojourner
                                  http://www.sureword.com/kjb1611
                                  http://www.sureword.com/notetab
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