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  • Ian Ornstein
    Replying to Jody from the HTML list. Feel free to do the same so we can spare the HTML folk who aren t on the list for this kind of stuff. Agreed. The reason I
    Message 1 of 2 , Apr 16, 2000
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      Replying to Jody from the HTML list.

      Feel free to do the same so we can spare the
      HTML folk who aren't on the list for this kind of stuff.
      Agreed. The reason I continued on the HTML for so long
      was that I felt that those folks would be amoung those
      most harmed by by the practice.

      > This Spyware plague is a major league threat to all web usage.

      Software has to "spy," collect data from users computers, before
      it could be termed "Spyware."

      Well here is the source of that confusion. I wrote to Garret
      and asked him to include a warning on his site that announces
      software. Here is part of his reply which is where I got the
      term Spyware [I believe that the *spy* aspect is grabbing
      a hold of the windows handle to act on the program which
      is quite different from spying by gathering data on users].
      Sorry for the mis-direction caused by the nomenclature.

      ------- From Garrent ------
      Greetings Ian,

      Well!!!! Now I see what you were trying to tell me!! I know very
      well of Web
      3000, Aureate/Radiate and a few others out there like that..

      With the recent out break of these programs, they have finally gained
      a name now.. It's now called 'Spyware'.

      ---- End insert from Garret ---

      Alison Barbour explains: ------------
      There are two ways that you could have gotten our Browser Headline
      advertising. The first is by installing the free version of NetSonic,
      and the second is by installing software from one of our Web3000
      Network partners.

      The Browser Headline advertising will remain on the machine until
      NetSonic**AND** all Web3000 Network partner applications have been
      removed.

      ---------- end from Alison Barbour

      Aureate advertising software (or
      Bannerware if you will) is what NetCaptor used before it was
      falsely accused of being Spyware, even a trogan virus - it is a
      hoax, period. I refer you to the following links for that:

      http://www.aureate.com/privacy/falserumors.html
      http://kumite.com/myths/myths/myth036.htm
      http://vil.nai.com/vil/ve98516.asp

      Shareware writers already have access to Bannerware.
      That is not the problem.
      THE problem is attaching it to the browser and not
      their own product.
      This is THE issue for the whole discussion.


      I believe you are extremely over exaggerating here. Also, I believe
      you are stepping on the rights of a programmer to use whatever legal
      means he wants to use to make a living.

      Jody, I am raising a ETHICAL / MORAL objection.
      Suppose you work hard to deliver a product to some customer.
      Then the customer calls you to say the product is behaving
      in ways you did neither write nor intend. When you investigated
      you found that some tech-wiz decided he could put his advertizing
      on your program. Would you not be livid?


      I personally do not use Bannerware because it is very distracting
      for me.

      When NetCaptor was praised, I went to the site and took the
      tour. It looked promising. It said it was add supported.
      It did not say that it used Banerware. If it did, I would not
      have know what it meant. IT DID NOT SAY THAT IT WOULD ADD
      A PARASITE TO IE5.


      > This violation of trust is the strongest feeling I have ever had
      > about software ethics in close to 30 years as a developer.

      I believe you did not do your homework before posting and then
      twisted Freeware into Shareware. mea culpa

      I am a consumer of Shareware and user of Freeware. I see absolutely
      no threat to the Shareware Industry or to Freeware because of
      Bannerware.

      If you do not, then I have failed to make the case.
      What more can I say?

      I believe in liberty for people no matter what walk of life they are
      in so long as it does not harm others.

      My premise it that they HAVE BEEN HARMED by the banner
      advertising on IE5 when not being used by the sponsored site.

      > I frankly don't see me doing business with someone who was naivete
      > or careless enough to release this abomination.

      The only place Adam Styles was at fault was he did not check well
      enough and missed the banner being put on IE5, at least that is the
      way I read it.

      Yes. And as I said, this case is special (to me).
      I believe it justifies all this alarm.

      Surely you cannot call that an "abomination" even if
      he was aware of it.

      May I disagree (trying not to be disagreable)

      The fact is, he immediately saw it was wrong
      and jumped on it getting with WEB3000 to give him a .dll that does
      not do it. I think very highly of him for that. I believe your
      fear and screaming should be directed towards Shareware authors that
      don't give their users the time of day -- here's the product; your
      stuck with it buddy -- type programmers.

      Okay we are still confusing his product (or other author's)
      product with a sea change tampering of our environment
      which is larger than any one's product.

      Also, I believe thanking
      the authors for being concerned about their users is in line as well
      to let them know they are appreciated. Everybody sure knows we sure
      need more authors like that!!! Certainly.

      And I like to thank you for you very generous patience with
      my concerns on this whole issue.

      My first response was outrage.
      I followed up by trying to be Paul Revere and warn everyone.
      By now, I hope everyone has the message
    • Jody
      Hi Ian, ... Thanks for bringing it over here! You might want to brief through this before replying, because you might only feel like me that the end of it is
      Message 2 of 2 , Apr 16, 2000
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        Hi Ian,

        > Replying to Jody from the HTML list.

        Thanks for bringing it over here! You might want to brief
        through this before replying, because you might only feel like me
        that the end of it is all that needs replying to. Thank for
        admitting when you were wrong. ;)

        > ...Garret...
        > With the recent out break of these programs, they have finally
        > gained a name now. It's now called 'Spyware'.

        It might be called that, but the label is false as we saw from
        the links I posted. We can put names on a lot of things, but
        that does not mean what they do or are.

        > THE problem is attaching it to the browser and not their own
        > product.
        > This is THE issue for the whole discussion.

        Well, yes, then keep the focus on it instead of coming up with
        these other things like Shareware authors putting "Spyware" on
        their Shareware products and calling them all kinds of names. ;)

        >> I believe you are extremely over exaggerating here. Also, I
        >> believe you are stepping on the rights of a programmer to use
        >> whatever legal means he wants to use to make a living.
        >
        > Jody, I am raising a ETHICAL / MORAL objection. Suppose you
        > work hard to deliver a product to some customer. Then the
        > customer calls you to say the product is behaving in ways you
        > did neither write nor intend. When you investigated you found
        > that some tech-wiz decided he could put his advertizing on your
        > program. Would you not be livid?

        I agree, but you did not go into this in your second post. Your
        accusations were unjustified giving Shareware authors a bad name
        and since this started with NetCaptor, Adam Stiles in particular.

        >> I personally do not use Bannerware because it is very
        >> distracting for me.
        >
        > When NetCaptor was praised, I went to the site and took the
        > tour. It looked promising. It said it was add supported. It did
        > not say that it used Banerware. If it did, I would not have
        > know what it meant. IT DID NOT SAY THAT IT WOULD ADD A PARASITE
        > TO IE5.

        True, we have been over this, but for the benefit of the others
        reading this when Adam Styles was informed about the WEB3000
        banner being put on IE5 he immediately took action because he
        realized it was wrong and is having the WEB3000 people make him a
        new .dll.

        >> I am a consumer of Shareware and user of Freeware. I see
        >> absolutely no threat to the Shareware Industry or to Freeware
        >> because of Bannerware.
        >
        > If you do not, then I have failed to make the case.

        Certainly not. I have used it in the past, so I know what it
        behaves like. It would not matter if I never used it to make a
        point, in fact, by me not using it makes my point more valid,
        because I am not biased. If I don't use it because it distracts
        me and since there is software using it that I would like to use
        but don't, I'd rather see it not allowed. However, I *do not*
        want to see that happen for the reasons I have stated. Software
        programmers should have the right to offer their software in any
        form or fashion as long as it is not illegal.

        > What more can I say?

        Well, if you want to say my argument is no good because I do not
        use Bannerware, then you might as well throw out 95% of the
        reviews you read on software since the writers just try it out
        for the most part and are done with it, except NoteTab of course. :)

        >> I believe in liberty for people no matter what walk of life
        >> they are in so long as it does not harm others.
        >
        > My premise it that they HAVE BEEN HARMED by the banner
        > advertising on IE5 when not being used by the sponsored site.

        With NetCaptor, that is being corrected. As far as the other
        software, you should get with WEB3000 on that. I agree that
        software should not attached itself to other programs without the
        user given an option like WebWord does with MS Word. Or like
        ClipWriter does with NoteTab.

        > Okay we are still confusing his product (or other author's)
        > product with a sea change tampering of our environment which is
        > larger than any one's product.

        Re: WEB3000 above. Our fight should be with those people and
        perhaps posts to authors that se stuff like WEB3000 did to
        encourage them not to use invasive products. NetSonic might be
        WEB3000, but I am not sure.

        >> Also, I believe thanking the authors for being concerned about
        >> their users is in line as well to let them know they are
        >> appreciated. Everybody sure knows we sure need more authors
        >> like that!!!

        > Certainly.

        :-)

        > And I like to thank you for you very generous patience with my
        > concerns on this whole issue.
        >
        > My first response was outrage.
        > I followed up by trying to be Paul Revere and warn everyone.
        > By now, I hope everyone has the message

        Great! So, we have a happy ending? FWIW, Adam Styles is 27 years
        old so he wasn't even in his parents mind when you had already
        been developing for a few years, so I think he handled the
        situation quite well. :) You might want to thank him for that
        and give him some suggestions since you feel so strong about it.

        mailto:Adam@...

        Happy Off-Topic'n!
        Jody

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