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Re: [nslu2-general] Re: NSLU2 using 7805s and a 12V battery

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  • Philip Pemberton
    ... Take a look at this: It s a two-transistor (plus three resistors, three capacitors and a Zener diode) switching
    Message 1 of 15 , May 4, 2008
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      efilvasers wrote:
      > oabroad: a schematic and parts list would be great.
      > I've been fiddling with other ways; if I don't have the parts to make
      > a switching regulator, I'll probably use a 2N3055 with a 7805.

      Take a look at this:
      <http://www.romanblack.com/smps/smps.htm>

      It's a two-transistor (plus three resistors, three capacitors and a Zener
      diode) switching regulator based on parts you can get from most electronics
      parts dealers. You might need to wind the inductor yourself, or steal one from
      a broken electronic device of some kind (or even a PC power supply if you have
      a broken one lying around).

      The beauty of it is that it'll work with most small inductors and is
      incredibly easy to build. It's also a nice, easy introduction to the workings
      of an SMPSU (moreso with Roman's explanation of how it all works).

      If you want more info on SMPSUs, Microchip's website has an appnote on "buck"
      switch-mode converter design -- the so-called buck topology is a voltage
      step-down type SMPSU variant (Boost is one of the other topologies, there are
      a ton of others - see
      <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-mode_power_supply> for a bit more info).

      --
      Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny
      ygroups@... | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain
      http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination.
    • Peter Serbe
      Hi there guys, take a tip from an old H/W engineer: surf to the National website (www.national.com) and then go on the webench design software. Fill in Your
      Message 2 of 15 , May 4, 2008
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        Hi there guys,

        take a tip from an old H/W engineer:
        surf to the National website (www.national.com) and then go on
        the webench design software. Fill in Your specs - it will
        propose You an LM25576. You may have to register though.

        It's not worth to try to learn the intricacies of switching
        regulator design for such a simple task.

        Best regards
        Peter

        Philip Pemberton wrote:
        > efilvasers wrote:
        >> oabroad: a schematic and parts list would be great.
        >> I've been fiddling with other ways; if I don't have the parts to make
        >> a switching regulator, I'll probably use a 2N3055 with a 7805.
        >
        > Take a look at this:
        > <http://www.romanblack.com/smps/smps.htm>
        >
        > It's a two-transistor (plus three resistors, three capacitors and a Zener
        > diode) switching regulator based on parts you can get from most electronics
        > parts dealers. You might need to wind the inductor yourself, or steal one from
        > a broken electronic device of some kind (or even a PC power supply if you have
        > a broken one lying around).
        >
        > The beauty of it is that it'll work with most small inductors and is
        > incredibly easy to build. It's also a nice, easy introduction to the workings
        > of an SMPSU (moreso with Roman's explanation of how it all works).
        >
        > If you want more info on SMPSUs, Microchip's website has an appnote on "buck"
        > switch-mode converter design -- the so-called buck topology is a voltage
        > step-down type SMPSU variant (Boost is one of the other topologies, there are
        > a ton of others - see
        > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-mode_power_supply> for a bit more info).
        >
      • efilvasers
        First off, I d like to thank you all again for your help. I should have done a bit more research before jumping head first into this project. Next time around,
        Message 3 of 15 , May 5, 2008
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          First off, I'd like to thank you all again for your help.
          I should have done a bit more research before jumping head first into
          this project.
          Next time around, I'm definitely going with a switching regulator.
          My quick solution is this:
          A 2N3055, bolted to an old CPU heatsink (which still had some thermal
          compound on it), with the base connected to a 7805 (with a small heat
          sink), collector to the battery, and emitter to the NSLU2 (and other
          electronics).
          Also, the ground pin of the 7805 is connected to the real ground
          through a 1A diode; when I measured the emitter voltage without this,
          it read about 4.4 volts, went up to about 5.2 after adding it (runs
          about 4.9 with the NSLU2 on).
          The 7805 heatsink doesn't even warm up, while the 2N3055 heatsink
          warms up after a couple of minutes, but went back down to near room
          temperature when I placed an extra 80mm fan next to it.
          I'm using the same solution for the 9 volt regulator (both sharing the
          same fan).

          --- In nslu2-general@yahoogroups.com, Philip Pemberton <ygroups@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > efil vasers wrote:
          > > So far, I've tried a few different regulators (rated 1 or 1.5
          amps), and
          > > when I turn the NSLU2 on, after about 30 seconds, the regulators
          are too hot
          > > to touch and soon shut themselves down.
          >
          > OK, this is going to be a long post, mainly because I don't like
          saying that
          > something is going wrong, I also like saying exactly *why* it's
          going wrong
          > and how I came to the conclusion. If you've seen Big Bang Theory, think
          > 'Sheldon with slightly better social skills' :)
          >
          > Two things that could cause this:
          >
          > You're trying to drop too much power over the 7805s.
          > ----------------------------------------------------
          > 7805s are linear regulators (and horribly inefficient ones at that,
          but
          > they're cheap and pretty much the 'jellybean standard' so everyone
          uses them).
          > That means that any voltage drop has to be dissipated in the form of
          heat...
          > So let's do the math:
          >
          > Your input voltage is 13.8V (assuming a fully charged SLA battery).
          You're
          > using 7805s, so your output is 5V. That means a voltage drop of 8.8V
          by virtue of:
          > 13.8V - 5.0V = 8.8V
          >
          > You're also dumping a peak of 2A over the the regulators (though ~1A
          typical;
          > the USB ports are rated for 500mA each for a total of 1A). That's
          17.6 Watts:
          > 8.8V * 2A = 17.6W
          >
          > Or with the USBs 'open' (nothing connected), we assume 1A because:
          > 2A - (500mA * 2) = 1A
          >
          > Thus:
          > 8.8V * 1A = 8.8W
          >
          > So your regulators have to dissipate between 8.8 and 17.6 Watts of
          energy as
          > heat. And probably more than that because of internal
          inefficiencies. That's a
          > lot of heat!
          >
          > Your heatsink isn't big enough
          > ------------------------------
          > You need to get rid of 17.6W of heat, and keep the temperature of
          the chip die
          > itself below the thermal cutoff point (70 Celsius if I remember
          correctly). I
          > honestly can't remember the calculations for heatsinks off the top
          of my head,
          > but you can probably find them in 'The Art of Electronics' by
          Horowitz and
          > Hill. Or on the internet.
          >
          > OK, so your possible solutions would be:
          > - A switching regulator. These are pretty much turn-key these
          days, but you
          > have to be careful with them. Good PCB layout is essential,
          heatsinking less
          > so. Also, because you're not wasting as much energy as heat, your
          battery will
          > last longer.
          > - A bigger heatsink. Probably something about the size of a PC
          processor
          > heatsink, with a fan, and drilled to take your regulator. You'll
          need some
          > thermal grease and an insulator pad too.
          > - A pre-regulator. Add another regulator in front of the 7805 to
          > pre-regulate the 12V down to 8V, then feed the 8V to the 7805. Still
          horribly
          > inefficient, but you're distributing the load over two separate
          chips, which
          > reduces the heat output per chip.
          >
          > > I connected the regulators in parallel with each other to provide
          up to 3
          > > amps (more than the NSLU2 power supply), so I figured that I
          wouldn't need
          > > heatsinks for them. Am I wrong, or is my NSLU2 just behaving
          strangely?
          > > How many people out there have tried this?
          >
          > You shouldn't parallel 7805s. One chip will end up with a lower
          voltage than
          > the others (due to internal tolerances), and that'll take most of
          the load.
          > Result being that it ends up getting roasted, then when it
          eventually blows
          > you get a cascading failure of all the other 7805s. Lots of fun,
          involving
          > burned plastic, melted silicon and smoke that really isn't good for
          your
          > health or the chips'.
          >
          > You can add an external pass transistor though -- though it's been
          ages since
          > I've done it. I do recall it involves a 10-ohm resistor and a beefy PNP
          > transistor though. Cost is likely to be more than a switcher, though.
          >
          > Thanks,
          > --
          > Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and
          paste Bunny
          > ygroups@... | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain
          > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination.
          >
        • Phil Reed
          Take a look at the products from Dimension Engineering. They have a number of small, easily integrated switching power supplies you could use.
          Message 4 of 15 , May 6, 2008
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            Take a look at the products from Dimension Engineering. They have a
            number of small, easily integrated switching power supplies you could use.

            http://www.dimensionengineering.com/

            (just a happy customer...)

            ...phil

            --- In nslu2-general@yahoogroups.com, efil vasers <efilvasers@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > I'm trying to run my NSLU2 (with a 1GB flash drive, connected to an
            old wifi
            > router) from a 12 volt SLA rechargeable battery (5Ah) using 7805 voltage
            > regulators.
            > So far, I've tried a few different regulators (rated 1 or 1.5 amps), and
            > when I turn the NSLU2 on, after about 30 seconds, the regulators are
            too hot
            > to touch and soon shut themselves down.
            > I'm not sure what the problem is.
            > Just to try, I connected it with a single 7805 (1 amp), which
            immediately
            > shut itself off.
            >
            > I connected the regulators in parallel with each other to provide up
            to 3
            > amps (more than the NSLU2 power supply), so I figured that I
            wouldn't need
            > heatsinks for them. Am I wrong, or is my NSLU2 just behaving strangely?
            > How many people out there have tried this?
            >
            > (For those wondering, this is for a robotics project for school, and the
            > NSLU2 is running Debian)
            > --
            > View this message in context:
            http://www.nabble.com/NSLU2-using-7805s-and-a-12V-battery-tp17030363p17030363.html
            > Sent from the Nslu2 - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
            >
          • oabroad
            I just remembered a design trick for boosting a regulator: one circuit I ve seen used a PNP power transistor with the base connected to the INPUT of the
            Message 5 of 15 , May 6, 2008
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              I just remembered a design trick for boosting a regulator: one
              circuit I've seen used a PNP power transistor with the base
              connected to the INPUT of the regulator (with a bypass resistor,
              probably 22ohms). By putting the junction on the input side the
              output regulation isn't compromised by Vbe drop.

              --- In nslu2-general@yahoogroups.com, "efilvasers" <efilvasers@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > First off, I'd like to thank you all again for your help.
              > I should have done a bit more research before jumping head first
              into
              > this project.
              > Next time around, I'm definitely going with a switching regulator.
              > My quick solution is this:
              > A 2N3055, bolted to an old CPU heatsink (which still had some
              thermal
              > compound on it), with the base connected to a 7805 (with a small
              heat
              > sink), collector to the battery, and emitter to the NSLU2 (and
              other
              > electronics).
              > Also, the ground pin of the 7805 is connected to the real ground
              > through a 1A diode; when I measured the emitter voltage without
              this,
              > it read about 4.4 volts, went up to about 5.2 after adding it (runs
              > about 4.9 with the NSLU2 on).
              > The 7805 heatsink doesn't even warm up, while the 2N3055 heatsink
              > warms up after a couple of minutes, but went back down to near room
              > temperature when I placed an extra 80mm fan next to it.
              > I'm using the same solution for the 9 volt regulator (both sharing
              the
              > same fan).
              >
            • tbering2002
              In nslu2-general@yahoogroups.com, efilvasers ... You might want to take a look at www.national.com and use one of their simple switching
              Message 6 of 15 , May 8, 2008
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                In nslu2-general@yahoogroups.com, "efilvasers" <efilvasers@
                ...>
                wrote:
                > Next time around, I'm definitely going with a switching regulator.

                You might want to take a look at www.national.com and use one of their
                simple switching regulator circuits. Your battery would last longer,
                and digikey can supply almost all the parts you need to build the design.

                National Semiconductor even has a nice tool
                http://www.national.com/appinfo/power/webench.html to automatically
                design your application.

                Additionally, digikey has some pre-made switching regulator modules.
                If you use those, you only need to add capacitors, and thus they are
                more prototype friendly. Some of the DC-DC modules will be even
                easier to connect than your power boosted 7805. Look at the 78HCT205
                or the 78ST305.

                --- In nslu2-general@yahoogroups.com, "oabroad" <oliverb@...> wrote:
                >
                > I just remembered a design trick for boosting a regulator: one
                > circuit I've seen used a PNP power transistor with the base
                > connected to the INPUT of the regulator (with a bypass resistor,
                > probably 22ohms). By putting the junction on the input side the
                > output regulation isn't compromised by Vbe drop.
                >
                > --- In nslu2-general@yahoogroups.com, "efilvasers" <efilvasers@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > First off, I'd like to thank you all again for your help.
                > > I should have done a bit more research before jumping head first
                > into
                > > this project.
                > > Next time around, I'm definitely going with a switching regulator.
                > > My quick solution is this:
                > > A 2N3055, bolted to an old CPU heatsink (which still had some
                > thermal
                > > compound on it), with the base connected to a 7805 (with a small
                > heat
                > > sink), collector to the battery, and emitter to the NSLU2 (and
                > other
                > > electronics).
                > > Also, the ground pin of the 7805 is connected to the real ground
                > > through a 1A diode; when I measured the emitter voltage without
                > this,
                > > it read about 4.4 volts, went up to about 5.2 after adding it (runs
                > > about 4.9 with the NSLU2 on).
                > > The 7805 heatsink doesn't even warm up, while the 2N3055 heatsink
                > > warms up after a couple of minutes, but went back down to near room
                > > temperature when I placed an extra 80mm fan next to it.
                > > I'm using the same solution for the 9 volt regulator (both sharing
                > the
                > > same fan).
                > >
                >
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