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Re: Spin-up maxtor onetouch

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  • bloedmann999
    ... Hi, I just read an interesting article on this in the German computer magazine c t. Quote (and translated by me): For desktop 3.5 drives, SATA and IDE,
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 5, 2008
      --- In nslu2-general@yahoogroups.com, "bullfrog528" <yahoo@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In nslu2-general@yahoogroups.com, "David Shepherd" <david@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In nslu2-general@yahoogroups.com, Mike Westerhof <mwester@>
      > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > On Tue 26/02/08 12:02 AM , "David Shepherd" david@ sent:
      > > > [snip]
      > > > > If not ... while it seems "tidy" to be able to get the
      > Onetouch to
      > > > > spindown (its mainly aimed at being a backup server which will
      > > > > eventually run rsnapshot once or twice a day to snapshot my
      > main
      > > > > active NAS drive slo its not really in use much at the moment)
      > is it
      > > > > really necessary to get the drive to spin down .... will it
      > affect
      > > > > reliability much etc?
      > > >
      > > > Now that is *exactly* the correct question, IMO. Far too many
      > > people have wasted
      > > > far too much time, it seems to me, to try to get disks to spin
      > down
      > > for no useful
      > > > reason.
      > > >
      > > > The bottom line is that a modern disk drive is designed to spin.
      > > There's no
      > > > appreciable wear caused by keeping it running. Modern drives are
      > > much better
      > > > about it, but in fact older hard drives were rather limited in
      > terms
      > > of the
      > > > number of load/unload cycles they could tolerate.
      > >
      > > Thanks ... I think I'll forget about spin down and get on with
      > doing
      > > more usefull things with the slug. It just seemed a bit "strange"
      > that
      > > this HDD which is primarily intended to do rsnapshot backups of the
      > > main NAS device (a WD Netcenter) will be running 24/7 while the
      > > netcenter spins down after around 5 mins idle!
      > >
      >
      > There is possibly another argument for keeping the drives spinning.
      > I seem to remember around the late seventies early eighties it was
      > determined that computers that stayed on all the time were more
      > reliable than ones which were turned on and off. This was eventually
      > attibuted to the temperture cycles and the gold wires in IC's
      > connecting the silicon die to the pins for the outside world. The
      > temperture cycles made the wires expand and contract, they would
      > eventually break due to metal fatigue. I would like to think that
      > there have been improvements in this regard since then, but you
      > never know. So I suppose we should ask, do the majority of drives
      > fail because of mechanical motor/actuator wear or logic board
      > failure?
      >
      > Anyway I tend to power down drives if not going to be used for
      > several days (i.e. holding backups), otherwise they tend to remain
      > on and spinning.
      >
      > Anyway everyone is different, so as stated earlier you have to make
      > up your own mind what is best.
      >
      > Jeremy (Bullfrog)
      >
      Hi, I just read an interesting article on this in the German computer
      magazine c't. Quote (and translated by me):
      "For desktop 3.5" drives, SATA and IDE, the manufacturers generally
      view 50,000 start-stop cycles as OK (within spec maybe?).
      If you use the drive on 230 days a year, and have 20 on-off cycles a
      day, then over 5 years that is 23,000 cycles."

      Which as such doesn't really say anything. Some people will have
      drives that fail after far less cycles, and others will have drives
      that keep running far longer.

      Just FYI.

      Cheers Brian
    • David Shepherd
      ... Update on how I got on. After getting the disk to spin down and the finding it wouldn t spin up I restarted everything and didin t do the copy /var to ram
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 28, 2008
        --- In nslu2-general@yahoogroups.com, "David Shepherd" <david@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm using Unslung 6.10 and after following instructions on how to move
        > /var and /dev to a ramdisk + added noatime to the disk mounts I
        > managed to get my Maxtor Onetouch III to spin down (no 5 sec flicker
        > on disk light + after 10-15 mins disk definitely span down)! However,
        > when I looked at the slug a couple of days later found it no longer
        > thought it had a USB disk attached + attempts to login into it or
        > access it via web interface failed.
        >
        > Looking at nslu2-linux.org saw comments abut IO requests timing out
        > when Seagate freeagents had spun down along with a "fix" involving
        > creating an auto_restatr file in a dir under /sys/ ... however, this
        > seems to be for Debian and I'm on Unslung ... any ideas whether
        > there's an equivalent fix I can use.
        >
        > If not ... while it seems "tidy" to be able to get the Onetouch to
        > spindown (its mainly aimed at being a backup server which will
        > eventually run rsnapshot once or twice a day to snapshot my main
        > active NAS drive slo its not really in use much at the moment) is it
        > really necessary to get the drive to spin down .... will it affect
        > reliability much etc?

        Update on how I got on.

        After getting the disk to spin down and the finding it wouldn't spin
        up I restarted everything and didin't do the copy /var to ram disk
        trick again ... however I found that after a day or so the NSLU2 was
        crashed with a spun down disk. I tried reformatting disk and
        re-unslinging etc but same thing happens,

        Eventually I took the "last resort" and used the LinkSys Eraseall tool
        to revert to (as close as possible to) its initial state. This worked
        fine.

        N.b. as is the habit of things on internet the whole EraseAll
        situation has become totally exagerated and when googling to find out
        how to use it I found endless websites which solemnly declare that if
        you use eraseall then your NSLU2 will be permanently bricked! Given
        that its a tool produced by Linksys this would seem unlikely but
        common sense is not a major asset in parts of the web! Clearly
        eraseall is more dangerous than other toosl to reflash the NSLU2 since
        it apparent rewrites all the redboot code so if something does go
        wrong you may have bricked the NSLU2 so for standard unslinging etc
        its safer to use something less drastic ... however, in my situation
        (to quote a UK TV advert) "it did what it says on the can".

        With the NSLU2 back to standard Linksys stae I was able to unsling and
        so far after a week or so its all working ok. Maxtor disk is not
        spinning down but I'm not seeing that as a problem ... in fact if
        anything when lookinhg for info on any issues from 24/7 running on the
        Seagate/Maxtor web site the info given there was definitely that disk
        are designed to be able to run constantly and if there is an issue its
        with constant spin down/spin up cycles!

        Again I think I'd fallen for "web folklore" as I recall some of the
        original IBM deskstars had reliabiliyt problems which IBM at the time
        tried to explain by saying "well, they're desktop drives which aren't
        meant to be used more than 8 hours a day".
      • Rod Whitby
        ... It is a fact that the *only* reported cases of end-user brickage of NSLU2 units have occurred when the EraseAll tool has been used. There have been no
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 28, 2008
          David Shepherd wrote:
          > N.b. as is the habit of things on internet the whole EraseAll
          > situation has become totally exagerated and when googling to find out
          > how to use it I found endless websites which solemnly declare that if
          > you use eraseall then your NSLU2 will be permanently bricked! Given
          > that its a tool produced by Linksys this would seem unlikely but
          > common sense is not a major asset in parts of the web!

          It is a fact that the *only* reported cases of end-user brickage of
          NSLU2 units have occurred when the EraseAll tool has been used. There
          have been no confirmed reported cases of permanent (i.e. requiring
          hardware JTAG to fix) brickage when people use UpSlug2 or the SerComm
          updater to reflash as recommended by the nslu2-linux project.

          There are at least two cases where EraseAll is guaranteed to brick your
          device:

          1) You get a power failure during flashing. Note that power failure
          includes the cat knocking the power adapter out of the wall.

          2) You try and flash a Debian image (which for DFSG-compliance reasons
          does not contain a replacement copy of RedBoot).

          > Clearly eraseall is more dangerous than other toosl to reflash the NSLU2 since
          > it apparent rewrites all the redboot code so if something does go
          > wrong you may have bricked the NSLU2 so for standard unslinging etc
          > its safer to use something less drastic ... however, in my situation
          > (to quote a UK TV advert) "it did what it says on the can".

          A goal of the nslu2-linux project is to not increase the warranty/RMA
          return rate of NSLU2 devices to Linksys. At the moment, the only cases
          we know where using nslu2-linux firmware has caused a return is when
          someone has used the EraseAll tool and encountered one of the two known
          failure modes.

          For this reason, we strongly advise, at every opportunity possible, that
          people do *not* use EraseAll.

          Now, anyone is free to disregard that advice if they know what they are
          doing. At that point, any failure becomes the sole resposibility of the
          person making that choice - the project has done all it can to prevent
          problems. We don't prevent people using EraseAll, and if it does the
          job for someone who fully understands the risks, then that's great.

          -- Rod Whitby
          -- NSLU2-Linux Project Lead
        • David Shepherd
          ... Further update .... despite my initial optimism that after complete reinstall of original linksys firmware and unsling process that system was ok I found
          Message 4 of 9 , May 3 6:50 AM
            --- In nslu2-general@yahoogroups.com, "David Shepherd" <david@...> wrote:
            >
            > I'm using Unslung 6.10 and after following instructions on how to move
            > /var and /dev to a ramdisk + added noatime to the disk mounts I
            > managed to get my Maxtor Onetouch III to spin down (no 5 sec flicker
            > on disk light + after 10-15 mins disk definitely span down)! However,
            > when I looked at the slug a couple of days later found it no longer
            > thought it had a USB disk attached + attempts to login into it or
            > access it via web interface failed.
            >
            > Looking at nslu2-linux.org saw comments abut IO requests timing out
            > when Seagate freeagents had spun down along with a "fix" involving
            > creating an auto_restatr file in a dir under /sys/ ... however, this
            > seems to be for Debian and I'm on Unslung ... any ideas whether
            > there's an equivalent fix I can use.
            >
            > If not ... while it seems "tidy" to be able to get the Onetouch to
            > spindown (its mainly aimed at being a backup server which will
            > eventually run rsnapshot once or twice a day to snapshot my main
            > active NAS drive slo its not really in use much at the moment) is it
            > really necessary to get the drive to spin down .... will it affect
            > reliability much etc?
            >

            Further update .... despite my initial optimism that after complete
            reinstall of original linksys firmware and unsling process that system
            was ok I found that the NSLU2 locked up again after a few more days.

            Solution this time was to attach the OneTouch to a windows PC, run the
            Maxtor setup program and set the spin-down on the OneTouch to "never".
            Since then (just over 2 weeks) its been working fine so I'm now hoping
            its "sorted".
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