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Re: [NTB] Loss of outline pages

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  • Paul King
    ... Hi Jody: You are generally correct with the wet noodle, but not this time. Both messages went to the NTB list. PK
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 1, 2000
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      At 01:13 PM 7/1/00 -0500, you wrote:
      >Hi Paul,
      >
      > > Hi Jody:
      >
      >If you address your posts to everybody, you might get an answer
      >faster although most of us don't have any problem ignoring to who
      >the post is addressed to. :) That is what group discussion lists
      >are all about.


      Hi Jody:

      You are generally correct with the wet noodle, but not this
      time. Both messages went to the NTB list.

      PK
    • Paul King
      Hi Jody and all: I am restating my problem to make it more understandable. I have just lost four pages from a current topic I have hard copy, but wish to
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 1, 2000
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        Hi Jody and all:

        I am restating my problem to make it more understandable.

        I have just lost four pages from a current topic I
        have hard copy, but wish to recover my loss. Any
        hope?

        As I recall, ntp asked whether I wanted to print the
        current topic or the the entire outline file. I chose
        current topic.

        I am unable to duplicate my subsequent error. I fail
        to find in Help any reference to printing options for
        Outline files.

        Paul King

        On July 1, Jody wrote:
        I'm not exactly sure what you are saying. If you cannot find the
        Topic because the Outline is very large, type in some of the text
        from your hard copy in the Find dialog to get back to it.

        Using Find failed to produce my copy. PK

        To print the pages that were missed print the Topic again, but this
        time when the print dialog comes up click on Pages then enter the
        To and From page numbers.

        I never saw a dialog with more than two options
        nor can I make one appear. PK

        When you answer the Print whole Outline question the Print dialog
        comes up next.

        I'm unable to make this happen. PK
      • Jody
        Hi Paul, ... If they are no longer there and you do not have a backup, then there is no hope. If you are still sitting there though waiting for an answer
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 1, 2000
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          Hi Paul,

          > I have just lost four pages from a current topic I have hard
          > copy, but wish to recover my loss. Any hope?

          If they are no longer there and you do not have a backup, then
          there is no hope. If you are still sitting there though waiting
          for an answer before you close the Outline, just close it without
          saving (unless you have Auto-save turned on). If by some chance
          you did not close the file yet, see if you can use the Undo tool.
          A few things could have caused text to be deleted, but I haven't
          heard of NoteTab doing it and it has never happened to me except
          on rare occasion during beta testing, but it was fixed.

          > As I recall, ntp asked whether I wanted to print the current
          > topic or the the entire outline file. I chose current topic.

          OK.

          > I am unable to duplicate my subsequent error. I fail to find in
          > Help any reference to printing options for Outline files.

          Once you answer the Topic/whole Outline question the options are
          the same.

          > Using Find failed to produce my copy.

          Try again and make sure you type in the search criteria correctly
          and do not cross over hard line breaks if they are in the document.
          It can be done easily in the search, but let's don't confuse things.

          > I never saw a dialog with more than two options
          > nor can I make one appear.

          You said in your first post:

          "As I recall, I was queried whether I wanted to print the specific
          heading or the the entire outline file....Then I was asked
          another question and apparently made the wrong choice."

          The second question was probably the Print dialog.

          Do this. Open an Outline or focus one. Press Ctrl+P, use your
          Print icon, or choose File | Print...

          At the time you will see your Topic or whole Outline question.
          Next, the Print dialog should come up with your print options.

          Happy NoteTab'n,
          Jody Adair

          The NoteTabbers Assistant Page
          http://www.sureword.com/notetab

          The NoteTab Basic Discussion List
          mailto:NoteTab-Subscribe@...
          mailto:NoteTab-UnSubscribe@...
          http://www.egroups.com/group/notetab
        • Paul King
          Hi Jody: ... I am resigned to the loss of the text and that is really of little concern to me. My real need is to avoid repetition of my error. If outline
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 1, 2000
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            Hi Jody:

            At 04:04 PM 7/1/00 -0500, you wrote:
            >Hi Paul,
            >
            > > I have just lost four pages from a current topic I have hard
            > > copy, but wish to recover my loss. Any hope?
            >
            >If they are no longer there and you do not have a backup, then
            >there is no hope. If you are still sitting there though waiting
            >for an answer before you close the Outline, just close it without
            >saving (unless you have Auto-save turned on). If by some chance
            >you did not close the file yet, see if you can use the Undo tool.
            >A few things could have caused text to be deleted, but I haven't
            >heard of NoteTab doing it and it has never happened to me except
            >on rare occasion during beta testing, but it was fixed.

            I am resigned to the loss of the text and that is really
            of little concern to me. My real need is to avoid repetition
            of my error. If outline files are touchy and unreliable, I
            will move my outline files elsewhere. I keep running files
            here, subject to periodic editing and periodic snail mail
            deadlines. Until now, I have no complaints about outline
            files.

            You have several times mentioned the large and prominent
            Print dialog box which does not figure at all in the error
            that caused my problem. I never saw it when the text
            vanished, but would have recognized it had it been there.

            I think we are communicating imperfectly here, Jody, but I
            thank you for the tips you have given me. I am responsible
            for failing to render a complete and lucid description of what
            I was doing and what I saw.

            > > As I recall, ntp asked whether I wanted to print the current
            > > topic or the the entire outline file. I chose current topic.
            >
            >OK.

            The language in this dialog box could be improved.
            It asks for a positive answer to print the entire outline
            and a negative answer to print only the current topic.

            > > I am unable to duplicate my subsequent error. I fail to find in
            > > Help any reference to printing options for Outline files.
            >
            >Once you answer the Topic/whole Outline question the options are
            >the same.
            Sorry about that. I read your comments to mean there were
            options specific to outline files in a separate dialog box, not
            a part of the familiar, large Print dialog box with four tabs along
            the top.


            > > Using Find failed to produce my copy.
            >
            >Try again and make sure you type in the search criteria correctly
            >and do not cross over hard line breaks if they are in the document.
            >It can be done easily in the search, but let's don't confuse things.
            >
            > > I never saw a dialog with more than two options
            > > nor can I make one appear.
            You said in your first post:

            >"As I recall, I was queried whether I wanted to print the specific
            >heading or the the entire outline file....Then I was asked
            >another question and apparently made the wrong choice."

            I have failed to explain clearly that these choices
            came in successive boxes, not the same dialog box.
            Each offered me two and only two choices.

            >The second question was probably the Print dialog.
            >
            >Do this. Open an Outline or focus one. Press Ctrl+P, use your
            >Print icon, or choose File | Print...
            >
            >At the time you will see your Topic or whole Outline question.
            >Next, the Print dialog should come up with your print options.
            >
            >Happy NoteTab'n,
            >Jody Adair

            I think we have just about squeezed all the juice out of this one.
            I'll post (to the whole list and especially Jody) again only if the
            error reoccurs.

            Paul King
          • Jody
            Hi Paul, ... They are not unreliable. ... That has been mentioned a number of times. Using the same dialog with the Yes/No buttons, how would you word it. To
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 1, 2000
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              Hi Paul,

              > If outline files are touchy and unreliable, I will move my
              > outline files elsewhere. I keep running files here, subject to
              > periodic editing and periodic snail mail deadlines. Until now,
              > I have no complaints about outline files.

              They are not unreliable.

              > The language in this dialog box could be improved. It asks for
              > a positive answer to print the entire outline and a negative
              > answer to print only the current topic.

              That has been mentioned a number of times. Using the same dialog
              with the Yes/No buttons, how would you word it. To make a new box
              for it would be added bloat for no really good reason. It is
              clearly stated on what to answer even though it is a bit awkward
              pressing No and still getting a result other than ending. :)

              > Sorry about that. I read your comments to mean there were
              > options specific to outline files in a separate dialog box, not
              > a part of the familiar, large Print dialog box with four tabs
              > along the top.

              Once you answer the Yes/No question everything is the same as
              printing a regular document. The only reason for the Yes/No
              question is to give you the option of printing the whole Outline
              or only the Topic.

              > I have failed to explain clearly that these choices came in
              > successive boxes, not the same dialog box. Each offered me two
              > and only two choices.

              That is really strange. I have no idea why you would get that.
              If you ever get it again could you take a screen shot of it and
              send it to me private eMail please? Are you doing the printing
              from a Clip by any chance?

              > I think we have just about squeezed all the juice out of this
              > one. I'll post (to the whole list and especially Jody) again
              > only if the error reoccurs.

              Feel free to keep posting until you understand how it works.
              Others know where the delete key is if they are not interested.

              Happy NoteTab'n,
              Jody Adair

              The NoteTabbers Assistant Page
              http://www.sureword.com/notetab

              The NoteTab Basic Discussion List
              mailto:NoteTab-Subscribe@...
              mailto:NoteTab-UnSubscribe@...
              http://www.egroups.com/group/notetab
            • Paul King
              Hi Listees: I have found my error which resulted in the loss of some outline text and here suggest a way of avoiding my mistake. It involves the Show Headings
              Message 6 of 17 , Jul 2, 2000
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                Hi Listees:

                I have found my error which resulted in the loss of
                some outline text and here suggest a way of avoiding
                my mistake.

                It involves the Show Headings command and has nothing
                to do with printing or the Print dialog box.

                When outline files are active, outline headers appear in
                the left pane with the current topic text one is editing in
                the right pane.

                In my case, a heading appeared at the top of the current
                topic pane. I wanted to remove the heading, but was not
                aware that right clicking in the header pane would activate
                a menu box where I could make this happen.

                Show Heading, the bottom command in this menu
                box, is a toggle switch. Checking it will cause the heading
                to appear in the current topic pane. Unchecking it will delete
                the heading in the current topic pane.

                Instead of doing this, I highlighted the header in the current
                topic pane and hit the delete button. The heading vanished.
                Then I attempted to close the document and got a new dialog
                box: Confirm changes to the file with a yes/no choice.

                When I selected yes, a new Confirm dialog box appeared asking
                if I really meant to remove this file. Again I clicked yes and poof
                went my file. I have confirmed the result twice by repeating these
                steps with a test file.

                The moral is: be alert. Do not attempt to remove a header in the
                current topic pane by highlighting and deleting it. If you do, say
                Sayonara to your current topic file.

                Paul King
              • Jody
                Hi Paul, ... I am sure glad you figured it out! It would be many moons till I guessed at what happened. ;) About your last sentence above: NoteTab does not
                Message 7 of 17 , Jul 2, 2000
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                  Hi Paul,

                  > When outline files are active, outline headers appear in the
                  > left pane with the current topic text one is editing in the
                  > right pane.
                  >
                  > In my case, a heading appeared at the top of the current topic
                  > pane. I wanted to remove the heading, but was not aware that
                  > right clicking in the header pane would activate a menu box
                  > where I could make this happen.
                  >
                  > Show Heading, the bottom command in this menu box, is a toggle
                  > switch. Checking it will cause the heading to appear in the
                  > current topic pane. Unchecking it will delete the heading in
                  > the current topic pane.

                  I am sure glad you figured it out! It would be many moons till I
                  guessed at what happened. ;) About your last sentence above:
                  NoteTab does not delete the Heading as you probably figured, but
                  simply hides it from the Topic content pane until Show Headings
                  it clicked again. You will notice when you have Show Headings
                  off that and Edit Heading appears on the menu, but when Headings
                  are showing it is not there. That is because you edit the
                  heading in the Topic pane when it is in there.

                  I deleted a few a couple years ago like you did myself. <g>

                  Happy NoteTab'n,
                  Jody Adair

                  The NoteTabbers Assistant Page
                  http://www.sureword.com/notetab

                  The NoteTab Basic Discussion List
                  mailto:NoteTab-Subscribe@...
                  mailto:NoteTab-UnSubscribe@...
                  http://www.egroups.com/group/notetab
                • Paul King
                  ... Hi Jody and listees: Hide is indeed the operative word, not delete. But you see I was targeting the header for deletion because I didn t want it in the
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jul 3, 2000
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                    At 12:14 AM 7/3/00 -0500, Jody wrote:
                    >Hi Paul,
                    >
                    >NoteTab does not delete the Heading as you probably figured, but
                    >simply hides it from the Topic content pane until Show Headings
                    >it clicked again. You will notice when you have Show Headings
                    >off that and Edit Heading appears on the menu, but when Headings
                    >are showing it is not there. That is because you edit the
                    >heading in the Topic pane when it is in there.
                    >
                    >I deleted a few a couple years ago like you did myself. <g>

                    Hi Jody and listees:

                    Hide is indeed the operative word, not delete. But you see I
                    was targeting the header for deletion because I didn't want it
                    in the printed copy. By following this path, I ended up deleting
                    the entire text by mistake and went too far to undo the command.
                    And I erroneously blamed my mistake on the Print command.

                    PK
                  • David McIntosh
                    Hi Paul Have you checked the recycle bin. thankyou dave
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jul 3, 2000
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                      Hi Paul
                      Have you checked the recycle bin.
                      thankyou dave

                      Paul King wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Jody:
                      >
                      > I have just lost four pages from an outline heading (plus
                      > the heading), I have a hard copy, but wish to recover
                      > my loss. Any hope?
                      >
                      > As I recall, I was queried whether I wanted to print the
                      > specific heading or the the entire outline file. I chose
                      > the specific heading.
                      >
                      > Then I was asked another question and apparently made
                      > the wrong choice. This a new error for me, thus pushing
                      > up my grand total to a new high. 8--(
                      >
                      > Paul King
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > Challenged with e-Business quality management? Register for a free
                      > Webinar featuring e-business testing and performance experts.
                      > http://click.egroups.com/1/5935/12/_/2478/_/962468446/
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    • Paul King
                      ... Hi Dave: I was not ignoring your attempt to help me. For some reason I saw your email for the first time this A. M. As I understand it, there is no
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jul 3, 2000
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                        At 11:31 PM 7/3/00 +1000, you wrote:
                        >Hi Paul
                        >Have you checked the recycle bin.
                        > thankyou dave
                        >
                        >Paul King wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hi Jody:
                        > >
                        > > I have just lost four pages from an outline heading (plus
                        > > the heading), I have a hard copy, but wish to recover
                        > > my loss. Any hope?
                        > >
                        > > Paul King


                        Hi Dave:

                        I was not ignoring your attempt to help me. For some reason
                        I saw your email for the first time this A. M. As I understand
                        it, there is no recourse to recovery from the trash bin in ntp.
                        The only option for text recovery is the Undo command which,
                        of course, you must use immediately after the loss or the copy
                        is gone forever. On occasion, Find may locate errant copy if
                        it still exists.

                        If I have this wrong, I'm sure it will be corrected immediately
                        by more than one person on the list. If you have been following
                        this thread, you can see how I discovered the cause of my loss.
                        It was a puzzling (and thoughtless) mistake on my part,

                        Thanks,
                        Paul King
                      • Larry Thomas
                        Hi Paul and Dave, ... There are several ways to lose and recover text and files in NoteTab. In the case of simply deleting the whole file, NoteTab does in
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jul 3, 2000
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                          Hi Paul and Dave,

                          At 12:11 PM 07/03/2000 -0700, you wrote:
                          >Hi Dave:
                          >
                          >I was not ignoring your attempt to help me. For some reason
                          >I saw your email for the first time this A. M. As I understand
                          >it, there is no recourse to recovery from the trash bin in ntp.
                          >The only option for text recovery is the Undo command which,
                          >of course, you must use immediately after the loss or the copy
                          >is gone forever. On occasion, Find may locate errant copy if
                          >it still exists.
                          >
                          >If I have this wrong, I'm sure it will be corrected immediately
                          >by more than one person on the list. If you have been following
                          >this thread, you can see how I discovered the cause of my loss.
                          >It was a puzzling (and thoughtless) mistake on my part,
                          >
                          >Thanks,
                          >Paul King

                          There are several ways to lose and recover text and files in NoteTab. In
                          the case of simply deleting the whole file, NoteTab does in fact send it to
                          the recycle bin and you can recover it from there. In the case of deleting
                          text from within a file but not the file itself as you did with your
                          outline, there are two possible options.

                          A) If you have not saved the file after deleting the text and the text was
                          in the original file when you opened it, you can reload the file to recover
                          the text.

                          B) If (1) you have set the undo option to "Undo after Save" and (2) you
                          have not deleted an amount of text that is larger than undo can handle and
                          (3) you have not terminated NoteTab and then restarted it (which will clear
                          the undo option) then you can undo it. Undo has a history list and if you
                          have made several text changes but they are not too large for this function
                          then you can undo them one at a time starting with the last change you made
                          and progressively using undo to reverse the previous ones going from the
                          last change to the first one you made.

                          Regards,

                          Larry
                          larryt@...
                        • Paul King
                          ... Thanks Larry: It has been some time since I lost text in circumstances which caused me to reexamine recovery methods. Thanks for your lucid explanation. I
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jul 3, 2000
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                            At 04:44 PM 7/3/00 -0500, you wrote:

                            >Hi Paul and Dave,
                            >
                            >At 12:11 PM 07/03/2000 -0700, you wrote:
                            > >Hi Dave:
                            > >
                            > >I was not ignoring your attempt to help me. For some reason
                            > >I saw your email for the first time this A. M. As I understand
                            > >it, there is no recourse to recovery from the trash bin in ntp.
                            > >The only option for text recovery is the Undo command which,
                            > >of course, you must use immediately after the loss or the copy
                            > >is gone forever. On occasion, Find may locate errant copy if
                            > >it still exists.
                            >
                            > >Thanks,
                            > >Paul King
                            >
                            >There are several ways to lose and recover text and files in NoteTab. In
                            >the case of simply deleting the whole file, NoteTab does in fact send it to
                            >the recycle bin and you can recover it from there. In the case of deleting
                            >text from within a file but not the file itself as you did with your
                            >outline, there are two possible options.
                            >
                            >A) If you have not saved the file after deleting the text and the text was
                            >in the original file when you opened it, you can reload the file to recover
                            >the text.
                            >
                            >B) If (1) you have set the undo option to "Undo after Save" and (2) you
                            >have not deleted an amount of text that is larger than undo can handle and
                            >(3) you have not terminated NoteTab and then restarted it (which will clear
                            >the undo option) then you can undo it. Undo has a history list and if you
                            >have made several text changes but they are not too large for this function
                            >then you can undo them one at a time starting with the last change you made
                            >and progressively using undo to reverse the previous ones going from the
                            >last change to the first one you made.
                            >
                            >Regards,
                            >
                            >Larry
                            >larryt@...


                            Thanks Larry:

                            It has been some time since I lost text in circumstances
                            which caused me to reexamine recovery methods. Thanks
                            for your lucid explanation. I have not only repeated your
                            examples to verify that they work, but I have also printed
                            out your email and posted it above my keyboard for
                            reference. Same for your tips on outline text.

                            Occasionally one can learn more from an error than he
                            suffered from the loss it caused. I am much obliged.

                            Paul King
                          • Larry Thomas
                            Hi Paul, ... You are welcome. I am glad that I could help. A special suggestion for you here for future reference is to go to View|Options and select the File
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jul 3, 2000
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                              Hi Paul,

                              At 04:07 PM 07/03/2000 -0700, you wrote:
                              >Thanks Larry:
                              >
                              >It has been some time since I lost text in circumstances
                              >which caused me to reexamine recovery methods. Thanks
                              >for your lucid explanation. I have not only repeated your
                              >examples to verify that they work, but I have also printed
                              >out your email and posted it above my keyboard for
                              >reference. Same for your tips on outline text.
                              >
                              >Occasionally one can learn more from an error than he
                              >suffered from the loss it caused. I am much obliged.
                              >
                              >Paul King

                              You are welcome. I am glad that I could help.

                              A special suggestion for you here for future reference is to go to
                              View|Options and select the File tab. Then check the "Make Backups" box
                              and under the drop down list titled "Backup Types" select "incremental".
                              Now whenever you save a file, NoteTab will automatically make a backup of
                              the previous file with an incremental extension (up to 999). Example:
                              Myoutline.otl will be updated when you save it and a backup copy of the old
                              file will be made with the name of Myoutline.001otl. If you update again,
                              another backup will be made of the second file with the name of
                              Myoutline.002otl and so forth. You can write a clip or a batch file to
                              periodically clean out the .???otl files from the NoteTab folders and run
                              it when you want to do this but in the mean time, you will have a copy
                              amonhg these backup files that you can recover lost text from.

                              Regards,

                              Larry
                              larryt@...
                            • Paul King
                              Hi Larry: I like your idea regarding incremental backups. Paul K. ... I have had the .bak extension here since acquiring ntp. But your suggestion makes more
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jul 4, 2000
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                                Hi Larry:

                                I like your idea regarding incremental backups.

                                Paul K.

                                At 10:33 PM 7/3/00 -0500, you wrote:

                                >Hi Paul,
                                >
                                >At 04:07 PM 07/03/2000 -0700, you wrote:
                                > >Thanks Larry:
                                > >
                                > >It has been some time since I lost text in circumstances
                                > >which caused me to reexamine recovery methods. Thanks
                                > >for your lucid explanation. I have not only repeated your
                                > >examples to verify that they work, but I have also printed
                                > >out your email and posted it above my keyboard for
                                > >reference. Same for your tips on outline text.
                                > >
                                > >Occasionally one can learn more from an error than he
                                > >suffered from the loss it caused. I am much obliged.
                                > >
                                > >Paul King
                                >
                                >
                                >You are welcome. I am glad that I could help.
                                >
                                >A special suggestion for you here for future reference is to go to
                                >View|Options and select the File tab. Then check the "Make Backups" box
                                >and under the drop down list titled "Backup Types" select "incremental".

                                I have had the .bak extension here since acquiring ntp. But
                                your suggestion makes more sense, especially for those
                                files requiring frequent editing, I also print these out from
                                time to time and move the copies along by snail mail. More
                                and more, however, the text travels by email.

                                >Now whenever you save a file, NoteTab will automatically make a backup of
                                >the previous file with an incremental extension (up to 999). Example:
                                >Myoutline.otl will be updated when you save it and a backup copy of the old
                                >file will be made with the name of Myoutline.001otl. If you update again,
                                >another backup will be made of the second file with the name of
                                >Myoutline.002otl and so forth.

                                This is especially appropriate for my outline files. Many tasks
                                I formerly performed in WordPerfect I now perform in ntp
                                because of its speed and flexibility. Note Tab Pro has nearly
                                all of the functions I need for editing text.

                                > You can write a clip or a batch file to
                                >periodically clean out the .???otl files from the NoteTab folders and run
                                >it when you want to do this, but in the mean time, you will have a copy
                                >among these backup files that you can recover lost text from.
                                >
                                >Regards,
                                >
                                >Larry
                                >larryt@...
                              • Jim Hall
                                Paul, Larry and all, ... FWIW Though this thread hasn t quite gotten there yet,it is getting close so just a reminder in case you didn t see the past post
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jul 4, 2000
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                                  Paul, Larry and all,


                                  >A special suggestion for you here for future reference is to go to
                                  >View|Options and select the File tab. Then check the "Make Backups" box
                                  >and under the drop down list titled "Backup Types" select "incremental".
                                  >Now whenever you save a file, NoteTab will automatically make a backup of
                                  >the previous file with an incremental extension (up to 999). Example:
                                  >Myoutline.otl will be updated when you save it and a backup copy of the old
                                  >file will be made with the name of Myoutline.001otl. If you update again,
                                  >another backup will be made of the second file with the name of
                                  >Myoutline.002otl and so forth. You can write a clip or a batch file to
                                  >periodically clean out the .???otl files from the NoteTab folders and run
                                  >it when you want to do this but in the mean time, you will have a copy
                                  >amonhg these backup files that you can recover lost text from.

                                  FWIW
                                  Though this thread hasn't quite gotten there yet,it is getting close so
                                  just a reminder in case you didn't see the past post regarding "UNDO AFTER
                                  SAVE" with "AUTOSAVE TURNED ON". For some reason an autosave dumps the undo
                                  list in 4.82. Eric is aware of this and it is on the list to be fixed. Just
                                  be aware if you are working on something critical that it might be better
                                  not to depend on the autosave option. Instead Manual Incremental Saves as
                                  Larry has cited will be a lot safer.

                                  Regards,

                                  Jim
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