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Re: [NTB] Just learning HTML, wanting to follow XHTML rules

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  • Greg Chapman
    Hi Forrest, ... Oops! We re there already! Greg
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 3, 2010
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      Hi Forrest,

      Earlier I said:

      > If we need to, perhaps further discussion on this should take place
      > on the [NH] (NoteTab HTML) list.

      Oops! We're there already!

      Greg
    • Jeff Seager
      This clip library might be of use to you, Forrest: http://www.notetab.com/clipbooks/xml.zip It includes XHTML markup. For further reference:
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 3, 2010
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        This clip library might be of use to you, Forrest:
        http://www.notetab.com/clipbooks/xml.zip

        It includes XHTML markup. For further reference:
        http://www.w3schools.com/xhtml/default.asp

        Best wishes,
        Jeff Seager


        To: notetab@yahoogroups.com
        From: forrest@...
        Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 20:39:42 +0000
        Subject: [NTB] Just learning HTML, wanting to follow XHTML rules




























        I notice that HTML generated by NT pro does not follow XHTML rules. Specifically elements are not closed. Since I am just starting I would like to write in a way that is considered 'proper'. Is it easy to modify what NT produces when I select a given HTML element. e.g. change line break so instead of generating <br> it generates <br />.

        ???

        thanks.



















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      • brother.gabriel
        I too am a relatively new web master , and I had taken to using XHTML also. After reading Mr. Chapman s words, does anyone else second that opinion? And
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 4, 2010
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          I too am a relatively new "web master", and I had taken to using XHTML also. After reading Mr. Chapman's words, does anyone else second that opinion? And then, what would I have to do differently to change from xhtml to something more comparable?

          --- In notetab@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Seager <abrojos@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > This clip library might be of use to you, Forrest:
          > http://www.notetab.com/clipbooks/xml.zip
          >
          > It includes XHTML markup. For further reference:
          > http://www.w3schools.com/xhtml/default.asp
          >
          > Best wishes,
          > Jeff Seager
          >
          >
          > To: notetab@yahoogroups.com
          > From: forrest@...
          > Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 20:39:42 +0000
          > Subject: [NTB] Just learning HTML, wanting to follow XHTML rules
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          > I notice that HTML generated by NT pro does not follow XHTML rules. Specifically elements are not closed. Since I am just starting I would like to write in a way that is considered 'proper'. Is it easy to modify what NT produces when I select a given HTML element. e.g. change line break so instead of generating <br> it generates <br />.
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        • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
          I like xhtml, it s clean, it makes sense, all tags close. However I think we belong on the html list ... I ll copy this there. Many significant sites are
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 4, 2010
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            I like xhtml, it's clean, it makes sense, all tags close. However I
            think we belong on the html list ...
            I'll copy this there. Many significant sites are coded in xhtml.

            brother.gabriel wrote:
            > I too am a relatively new "web master", and I had taken to using XHTML also. After reading Mr. Chapman's words, does anyone else second that opinion? And then, what would I have to do differently to change from xhtml to something more comparable?
            >
            > --- In notetab@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Seager <abrojos@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> This clip library might be of use to you, Forrest:
            >> http://www.notetab.com/clipbooks/xml.zip
            >>
            >> It includes XHTML markup. For further reference:
            >> http://www.w3schools.com/xhtml/default.asp
            >>
            >> Best wishes,
            >> Jeff Seager
          • Jeff Seager
            I understand the perception that XHTML is a false trail, and I neither agree nor disagree. Greg has valid reasons for saying so. As Don says, and as the W3C
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 4, 2010
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              I understand the perception that XHTML is a "false trail," and I neither agree nor disagree. Greg has valid reasons for saying so. As Don says, and as the W3C says, it has its advantages because it is a strict implementation of HTML protocols. I think its requirements are beneficial for learning and for more efficient maintenance and standards compliance, and I believe it's important for me to leave behind a trail of code that others can understand and maintain easily. I use the XHTML 1.0 Transitional DOCTYPE routinely, and I may eventually switch over to HTML 5 for some sites but I seriously doubt that I'll go back and re-code anything.

              The most important thing is that you specify a DOCTYPE and write to that standard (but please stay away from anything earlier than HTML 4).

              Early versions of HTML had very loose rules, but I think "end tags" were always allowed even though they weren't required. I've always used and recommended them (I started with HTML 3.2), and even if you don't use XHTML I think it's very wise to follow its strict rules. It may be worthwhile to dig around on the Web a bit using the search keywords "advantages of XHTML" (including the quotes). Among what you'll find is this:
              http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/xhtml-faq.html#advantages

              In my opinion, XHTML is a perfectly valid branch of HTML and it qualifies for discussion in this forum. But I'm not in charge of the forum, so ...

              What would you have to do to change from XHTML? Depending on how far along you are, on a static website it may be as simple as changing the DOCTYPE at the top of your HTML files.

              Jeff Seager

              To: notetab@yahoogroups.com
              From: brgabriel@...
              Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 15:24:11 +0000
              Subject: [NTB] Re: Just learning HTML, wanting to follow XHTML rules




























              I too am a relatively new "web master", and I had taken to using XHTML also. After reading Mr. Chapman's words, does anyone else second that opinion? And then, what would I have to do differently to change from xhtml to something more comparable?






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tony McC
              On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 23:55:54 -0000 ... I agree, sadly. I spent some time learning XHTML and think that it is an improvement on HTML 4 in some ways, but I have
              Message 6 of 15 , Jan 4, 2010
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                On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 23:55:54 -0000
                Greg Chapman <gregchapmanuk@...> wrote:

                > Hi Forrest,
                >
                > On 02 Jan 10 20:39 "fo2resthawkins" <forrest@...> said:
                > > I notice that HTML generated by NT pro does not follow XHTML rules.
                > > Specifically elements are not closed. Since I am just starting I
                > > would like to write in a way that is considered 'proper'.
                >
                > I don't regard XHTML as "proper". As far as I can see XHTML is now
                > accepted by the W3C as a false trail and of no significant value to
                > conventional web sites.
                >
                > As I understand it, no common browser actually reads the stuff. It
                > just converts it to HTML before rendering it. The W3C are now hard at
                > work developing HTML5 to replace the current version of HTML.
                >
                > In short, don't bother with XHTML. It's largely a waste of time.
                > Instead work to a STRICT DocType using HTML4.01 and CSS and you should
                > have future-proofed your code, as far as that is ever possible.
                >
                > If we need to, perhaps further discussion on this should take place on
                > the [NH] (NoteTab HTML) list.
                >
                > Greg

                I agree, sadly. I spent some time learning XHTML and think that it is
                an improvement on HTML 4 in some ways, but I have to agree that without
                the support of the W3C it is a dead end. A year or so ago I,resolved
                to use only HTML 4.01 strict with CSS and that seems to work fine with
                existing browsers. I wish XHTML had worked out, but there's no way back
                now. Those who read comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html soon realise
                that XHTML was a false start. I haven't looked much at HTML 5 yet,
                maybe that picks up some good things?

                Tony
              • loro
                ... It doesn t die just because they cease to develop new versions. HTML has been dead a long time now. I ve used it all the time and that didn t hurt me
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 4, 2010
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                  Tony wrote:
                  >I agree, sadly. I spent some time learning XHTML and think that it is
                  >an improvement on HTML 4 in some ways, but I have to agree that without
                  >the support of the W3C it is a dead end.

                  It doesn't die just because they cease to develop new versions. HTML
                  has been "dead" a long time now. I've used it all the time and that
                  didn't hurt me any. Besides, HTML5 actually is HTML5 + XHTML5. Don't
                  think you are supposed to use XHTML syntax though, but I could be
                  wrong bout that. Who knows, in 10 years from now maybe XHTML is
                  resurrected in even greater glory than when it was created, if such
                  great a glory is even fathomable. <snicker>

                  <http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/introduction.html#html-vs-xhtml>

                  When will it end, huh?

                  Lotta
                • Brother Gabriel-Marie
                  Well, I have about 40 pages decked out with this line for the doctype (and all my tags are strictly closed):
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jan 6, 2010
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                    Well, I have about 40 pages decked out with this line for the doctype
                    (and all my tags are strictly closed):

                    <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
                    "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">

                    Do you all think I should change it or leave it? Right now, it seems to
                    work in Firefox (what doesn't?) and IE6+.
                  • Greg Chapman
                    Hi Brother, ... If your site is substantially completed, I d probably leave it as it is. If it s going to expand to a significantly larger number of pages, I d
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jan 7, 2010
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                      Hi Brother,

                      On 06 Jan 10 15:20 Brother Gabriel-Marie <brgabriel@...> said:
                      > Well, I have about 40 pages decked out with this line for the
                      > doctype (and all my tags are strictly closed):
                      >
                      > <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
                      > "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
                      >
                      > Do you all think I should change it or leave it? Right now, it
                      > seems to work in Firefox (what doesn't?) and IE6+.

                      If your site is substantially completed, I'd probably leave it as it
                      is. If it's going to expand to a significantly larger number of pages,
                      I'd install HTML Tidy and allow that to work its magic and do the bulk
                      of any alteration that's needed to adapt the code.

                      Greg
                    • loro
                      ... No, why? It won t stop working. Browsers don t understand or care about doctypes (more than for deciding what rendering mode to use, but that s a whole
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jan 7, 2010
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                        Brother Gabriel-Marie wrote:
                        ><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
                        >"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
                        >
                        >Do you all think I should change it or leave it? Right now, it seems to
                        >work in Firefox (what doesn't?) and IE6+.

                        No, why? It won't stop working. Browsers don't understand or care
                        about doctypes (more than for deciding what rendering mode to use,
                        but that's a whole other thing). Neither do they care if you write
                        HTML or XHTML. As longs as the pages are served as text/html they
                        will be treated the same. The X never mattered and it won't harm anything now.

                        Lotta
                      • brother.gabriel
                        Thanks, y all for your advice. I like clean, clear code, and I like closing all my tags. Then, when I write new pages, do you think I should continue to
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 9, 2010
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                          Thanks, y'all for your advice. I like clean, clear code, and I like closing all my tags. Then, when I write new pages, do you think I should continue to write the xhtml doctype, or should I write something else? Whatever I choose to do now I will probably do until I am actually forced to change it.

                          --- In notetab@yahoogroups.com, Brother Gabriel-Marie <brgabriel@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Well, I have about 40 pages decked out with this line for the doctype
                          > (and all my tags are strictly closed):
                          >
                          > <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
                          > "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
                          >
                          > Do you all think I should change it or leave it? Right now, it seems to
                          > work in Firefox (what doesn't?) and IE6+.
                          >
                        • loro
                          ... It doesn t matter. Lotta
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jan 9, 2010
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                            brother.gabriel wrote:
                            >Thanks, y'all for your advice. I like clean, clear code, and I like
                            >closing all my tags. Then, when I write new pages, do you think I
                            >should continue to write the xhtml doctype, or should I write
                            >something else? Whatever I choose to do now I will probably do
                            >until I am actually forced to change it.

                            It doesn't matter.

                            Lotta
                          • Jeff Seager
                            The important thing is to use the doctype you specify, and to check your code carefully to be sure it s valid. You ll have an easier time of it later if you
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jan 9, 2010
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                              The important thing is to use the doctype you specify, and to check your code carefully to be sure it's valid. You'll have an easier time of it later if you use external CSS and scripts, too. All this will make future changes easier to manage.

                              Jeff











                              brother.gabriel wrote:

                              >Thanks, y'all for your advice. I like clean, clear code, and I like

                              >closing all my tags. Then, when I write new pages, do you think I

                              >should continue to write the xhtml doctype, or should I write

                              >something else? Whatever I choose to do now I will probably do

                              >until I am actually forced to change it.



                              It doesn't matter.



                              Lotta





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