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Re: [NTB] Editing pages created in MS Frontpage

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  • Jeff Scism
    Copying this to: ntb-html@yahoogroups.com Please continue the discussion there... What you see is what you get (WYSIWYG) vs. Coding by NoteTab The MAIN
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 22 8:20 AM
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      Copying this to: ntb-html@yahoogroups.com
      Please continue the discussion there...


      "What you see is what you get (WYSIWYG)" vs. Coding by NoteTab


      The MAIN issues with WYSIWYG coding is that it is BULKY, redundant, and
      consumes way too much server space, and takes a LOT longer to
      upload, view and update.

      A single line in most programs is ALMOST treated as a stand alone html
      page, with each line having all attributes inserted, (the STYLE should
      be set for the document as a whole), and then each line within should
      have a default setting, WYSIWYG Programs can expand a document to 4-5
      times it's "efficient" size.

      If it is one or two pages it generally is no big deal, but if you are
      presenting a LARGE database it slows the loading of the pages to each
      user, devours cache capacity, and slows the user's functionality,
      consuming MORE RAM availibility.

      It can also cause compatibility issues as some web page creation
      "tools" are non-standard in code usage and have proprietary codes that
      only they interpret correctly.

      The reason to use NOTETAB as a tool is that
      1. The HTML-ar library will teach you how to code HTML by daily use, you
      can see what does what and why. This means when you have a problem you
      can't fix in WYSIWYG, you can look at the source code and SEE what is
      wrong. (I sometimes will code in NoteTab, run into a coding problem, run
      it through a WYSIWYG, and then rerun it through NoteTab to clean up
      codes, as some of the WYSIWYG programs will correct subtle code
      ommissions automatically (Composer))

      2. Verificcation with HTML coding standards is easily done through
      HTML-Tidy and through HTML validation applications, and editing is
      easy with on page replacement of text, and in Standard and Pro "global"
      directory replacements of text.

      NoteTab also facilitates quick viewing of the Coded pages BEFORE
      uploading.

      Jeff



      <<I agree with you that FrontPage generated HTML is nasty, but it's
      never meant to be looked at. Consider it more like object code from a
      compiler, with the source code being the (sort-of) WYSIWYG display in
      FrontPage. If you look at the output of any compiler, the machine code
      is certainly nowhere near as "nice" as you'd write by yourself in assembler.
      --
      ~~

      Jeffery G. Scism. IBSSG

      "Just the facts, maam."
      Sgt. Joe Friday,
      LAPD Badge #714

      Do your civic duty, Know your candidates and
      VOTE for the candidate of your choice.

      Jimmy Hoffa, 1960
    • David Smart
      Most of what you re saying is perfectly correct, but tends to miss the point a bit IMHO. The same argument could easily be used towards writing all software
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 22 3:41 PM
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        Most of what you're saying is perfectly correct, but tends to miss the point a bit IMHO. The same argument could easily be used towards writing all software in assembler.

        But it ain't done, because it's slower. Only software considered time critical is coded in assembler. Only web pages considered download-time-critical can justify being hand coded. (I must admit I tend to hand-code - using a combination of NoteTab and Arachnophilia, but I certainly can't claim that it's cost-justified.)

        Essentially, the technology will move on (CPU speed and disk space for compilers, link speed for web pages) and the inefficiencies of the automation tool are absorbed. (I don't accept the server-space argument for web pages - they're tiny compared to other things, and pretty insignificant on today's large disks.)

        Of course, the idea of any web automation tool producing an end result that is not compatible with all browsers is a totally different story.

        Dave S

        PS - I acknowledge that this is better off the [NTB] list. But I don't take that one, so have popped this last message here.

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Jeff Scism
        To: notetab@yahoogroups.com ; ntb-html@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 1:20 AM
        Subject: Re: [NTB] Editing pages created in MS Frontpage


        Copying this to: ntb-html@yahoogroups.com
        Please continue the discussion there...


        "What you see is what you get (WYSIWYG)" vs. Coding by NoteTab


        The MAIN issues with WYSIWYG coding is that it is BULKY, redundant, and
        consumes way too much server space, and takes a LOT longer to
        upload, view and update.

        A single line in most programs is ALMOST treated as a stand alone html
        page, with each line having all attributes inserted, (the STYLE should
        be set for the document as a whole), and then each line within should
        have a default setting, WYSIWYG Programs can expand a document to 4-5
        times it's "efficient" size.

        If it is one or two pages it generally is no big deal, but if you are
        presenting a LARGE database it slows the loading of the pages to each
        user, devours cache capacity, and slows the user's functionality,
        consuming MORE RAM availibility.

        It can also cause compatibility issues as some web page creation
        "tools" are non-standard in code usage and have proprietary codes that
        only they interpret correctly.

        The reason to use NOTETAB as a tool is that
        1. The HTML-ar library will teach you how to code HTML by daily use, you
        can see what does what and why. This means when you have a problem you
        can't fix in WYSIWYG, you can look at the source code and SEE what is
        wrong. (I sometimes will code in NoteTab, run into a coding problem, run
        it through a WYSIWYG, and then rerun it through NoteTab to clean up
        codes, as some of the WYSIWYG programs will correct subtle code
        ommissions automatically (Composer))

        2. Verificcation with HTML coding standards is easily done through
        HTML-Tidy and through HTML validation applications, and editing is
        easy with on page replacement of text, and in Standard and Pro "global"
        directory replacements of text.

        NoteTab also facilitates quick viewing of the Coded pages BEFORE
        uploading.

        Jeff



        <<I agree with you that FrontPage generated HTML is nasty, but it's
        never meant to be looked at. Consider it more like object code from a
        compiler, with the source code being the (sort-of) WYSIWYG display in
        FrontPage. If you look at the output of any compiler, the machine code
        is certainly nowhere near as "nice" as you'd write by yourself in assembler.
        --
        ~~

        Jeffery G. Scism. IBSSG

        "Just the facts, maam."
        Sgt. Joe Friday,
        LAPD Badge #714

        Do your civic duty, Know your candidates and
        VOTE for the candidate of your choice.

        Jimmy Hoffa, 1960



        Fookes Software Home: http://www.fookes.us/redir

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      • rbmooney
        David, I thought that the programs were all slower and full of glitches these days (thus making them memory hogs) because the coding was jumbled, confused,
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 22 4:41 PM
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          David,
          I thought that the programs were all slower and full of glitches these days (thus making them memory hogs) because the coding was jumbled, confused, incorrectly entered, in short, often quite a mess--that the brainpower simply wasn't in that field any more. I remember a statement that Gates made that obliquely indicated this as the source of coding problems and therefore the source of the growing size of all programs. I mean it does seem logical when one considers that Charlemagne sent his top subordinates to Ireland to retrieve several monks who were the last people on the Earth that knew intimately the old Latin. Since his French language had deteriorated so quickly and immigration brought many strange foreign languages that were assimilated into the old French that language standards would decline drastically. Since a top engineering degree today is not the same as it was (math-wise) 50 years ago and new engineering students seeking employment at very competitive and brain-draining high-paying good-engineering jobs leave a lot to be desired, can't the standards then be "relaxed" and the coding left to its own devices, to survive the quicksand or be swallowed up in the mess. If this is possible, wouldn't it be true that as standards decline people must have been less schooled? If I was properly trained, as many of the Bangalore "kids" are these days, I can see why the hardware guys the world over would hate me and love the inept newly graduated computer engineer from the US. This built-in failure to graduate properly educated students in the math sciences in the US is quickly impacting on several other important disciplines besides engineering: some young people leaving high school and several colleges can not read, write, or speak the "King's English" let alone perform brilliantly as coders. A quick aside: certain writers in Europe actually believe that with the decline in math skills and appreciation of it as the most elegant "language" that Americans have all ready begun to lose the ability to "think." But you seem to be saying that it's the weaker and expanded compilers of code--the actual programs--that are at fault. Am I wrong? I am not a computer expert in the least and know some math...just enough to get me in trouble. Thanks for any response you care to make.
          Blake
          RB Mooney
          rbmooney@...



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: David Smart
          To: notetab@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 5:41 PM
          Subject: Re: [NTB] Editing pages created in MS Frontpage


          Most of what you're saying is perfectly correct, but tends to miss the point a bit IMHO. The same argument could easily be used towards writing all software in assembler.

          But it ain't done, because it's slower. Only software considered time critical is coded in assembler. Only web pages considered download-time-critical can justify being hand coded. (I must admit I tend to hand-code - using a combination of NoteTab and Arachnophilia, but I certainly can't claim that it's cost-justified.)



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Smart
          Bit of both, probably. A compiler (even a low-level one like C) will generate object code that is far larger than would be written by a skilled assembler
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 22 5:16 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Bit of both, probably.

            A compiler (even a low-level one like C) will generate object code that is far larger than would be written by a skilled assembler programmer. Higher-level compilers (like C++, VB, etc) exacerbate this - produce voluminous object code and also having large run-time libraries. This can certainly account for object code being 10 times larger than it needs to be.

            Of interest, is the code being written by Steve Gibson (http://www.grc.com) - all in assembler and offering a lot of functionality in tiny object code. Steve's most famous product is SpinRite, whose installed directory zips down to 106kb on my machine (that's kb, not Mb!!).

            But it's not 10x, it's far worse than that!

            Next offender is software bloat. Huge help files, where a printed manual was provided instead previously, inter-program operability (e.g. MS Word and MS Excel), multi-multi-functions in a product (e.g. MS Word no longer just a word processor, but a desk-top-publisher as well, and a FAX, and ...).

            Also, you can blame the CD. Who wants to release a product using only 10Mb on a CD? Certainly not M$. They went from 15Mb in multiple floppies (and feeling guilty about having so many) to 600+ Mb CDs (and feeling guilty about not using all 600Mb) in a single bound.

            Bad coding? Certainly in there somewhere, I'm sure. Probably not caused so much by inexpert programmers - rather by the rush to add great globs of functionality to take advantage of the ever-increasing capacity of home computers. I still remember when we (at work - couldn't afford it at home) got our first PC hard disk. "How are we going to ever fill up 5Mb?"

            Gates is correct in saying that there is inadequate software out there. He should know, his company is responsible for a large proportion of it. He's probably incorrect in saying that it's because of inexpert programmers or even a lowering of educational standards. There is a push to get the software out the door as quickly as possible, with the maximum features possible, and with the knowledge that one can always release service packs later. (My son was complaining the other day that the Service Pack he'd just downloaded for XP would not fit on his 256Mb memory stick. A service pack larger than 256Mb?) But the consumers are equally to blame IMHO. For some reason, they'll accept software of a much lower reliability than probably anything else they buy (including the hardware the software runs on). Why? The software companies are being allowed to get away with something that no other company could get away with.

            Dave S

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: rbmooney
            To: notetab@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 9:41 AM
            Subject: Re: [NTB] Editing pages created in MS Frontpage


            David,
            I thought that the programs were all slower and full of glitches these days (thus making them memory hogs) because the coding was jumbled, confused, incorrectly entered, in short, often quite a mess--that the brainpower simply wasn't in that field any more. I remember a statement that Gates made that obliquely indicated this as the source of coding problems and therefore the source of the growing size of all programs. I mean it does seem logical when one considers that Charlemagne sent his top subordinates to Ireland to retrieve several monks who were the last people on the Earth that knew intimately the old Latin. Since his French language had deteriorated so quickly and immigration brought many strange foreign languages that were assimilated into the old French that language standards would decline drastically. Since a top engineering degree today is not the same as it was (math-wise) 50 years ago and new engineering students seeking employment at very competitive and brain-draining high-paying good-engineering jobs leave a lot to be desired, can't the standards then be "relaxed" and the coding left to its own devices, to survive the quicksand or be swallowed up in the mess. If this is possible, wouldn't it be true that as standards decline people must have been less schooled? If I was properly trained, as many of the Bangalore "kids" are these days, I can see why the hardware guys the world over would hate me and love the inept newly graduated computer engineer from the US. This built-in failure to graduate properly educated students in the math sciences in the US is quickly impacting on several other important disciplines besides engineering: some young people leaving high school and several colleges can not read, write, or speak the "King's English" let alone perform brilliantly as coders. A quick aside: certain writers in Europe actually believe that with the decline in math skills and appreciation of it as the most elegant " ;language" that Americans have all ready begun to lose the ability to "think." But you seem to be saying that it's the weaker and expanded compilers of code--the actual programs--that are at fault. Am I wrong? I am not a computer expert in the least and know some math...just enough to get me in trouble. Thanks for any response you care to make.
            Blake
            RB Mooney
            rbmooney@...



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: David Smart
            To: notetab@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 5:41 PM
            Subject: Re: [NTB] Editing pages created in MS Frontpage


            Most of what you're saying is perfectly correct, but tends to miss the point a bit IMHO. The same argument could easily be used towards writing all software in assembler.

            But it ain't done, because it's slower. Only software considered time critical is coded in assembler. Only web pages considered download-time-critical can justify being hand coded. (I must admit I tend to hand-code - using a combination of NoteTab and Arachnophilia, but I certainly can't claim that it's cost-justified.)


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