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Re: [NTB] capitalization in sorting

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  • Jody
    Hi Dan, Look in Options under the Tools menu and check the feature Case Sensitive Sorting . See if that does what you want. Case Sensitive Sorting: Defines
    Message 1 of 7 , May 15, 2001
      Hi Dan,

      Look in Options under the Tools menu and check the feature "Case
      Sensitive Sorting". See if that does what you want.

      Case Sensitive Sorting: Defines whether the "Sort" command should
      be case sensitive or not.


      >Using NoteTab Pro 4.85's Sort feature (Tools | modify
      >lines | sort | ascending), how do I sort so that words with
      >lower case initial letters get separated out from words
      >where the initial letter is uppercase?
      >
      >*** On the View menu (View | Options | Tools) I found a
      >checkbox for Case Sensitive Sorting.. but whether I
      >check it or not, the capitalized and uncapitalized words
      >are all mixed together.
      >
      >I'm probably overlooking something obvious... but any
      >ideas what??
      >
      >Thanks,
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >===============================================
      > Dan Doernberg, dan@...
      > Fairness.com LLC
      > The Online Guide to Fair Treatment
      > Phone: + 1 804/975-0780
      > Fax: + 1 804/975-0790
      >===============================================
      >
      >
      >
      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


      Happy NoteTab'n,
      Jody Adair

      The NoteTabbers Assistant Page
      http://www.notetab.net

      The NoteTab Basic Discussion List
      mailto:NoteTab-Subscribe@yahoogroups.com
      mailto:NoteTab-UnSubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      http://www.egroups.com/group/notetab
    • Pete Hoyle
      ... I ran a brief test (NoteTab Lite - free, 4.85) and the sort lines feature indeed behaved the same whether Case Sensitive Sorting in the Tools option was
      Message 2 of 7 , May 16, 2001
        At 08:29 AM 5/15/01 -0400, Dan Doernberg wrote:
        >...?
        >
        >*** On the View menu (View | Options | Tools) I found a
        >checkbox for Case Sensitive Sorting.. but whether I
        >check it or not, the capitalized and uncapitalized words
        >are all mixed together.
        >
        >I'm probably overlooking something obvious... but any
        >ideas what??

        I ran a brief test (NoteTab Lite - free, 4.85) and the sort lines
        feature indeed behaved the same whether Case Sensitive Sorting in the
        Tools option was checked or not. In particular, it always did a
        case-INSENSITIVE sort, treating "A" and "a" identically. For example,
        the following 4 lines: A1 / a2 / A3 / a4 always sorted into that
        order, EVEN when "Case Sensitive" was checked.

        -- Pete Hoyle
      • Dan Doernberg
        Thanks Pete... glad for the confirmation that I m not hallucinating! :- Eric--- perhaps something for the next service release? Certainly not the biggest
        Message 3 of 7 , May 16, 2001
          Thanks Pete... glad for the confirmation that I'm not
          hallucinating! :->

          Eric--- perhaps something for the next service release?
          Certainly not the biggest problem in the world....

          As always, love this software!!

          --- dan
          //////////////////////


          > >*** On the View menu (View | Options | Tools) I found a
          > >checkbox for Case Sensitive Sorting.. but whether I check
          > >it or not, the capitalized and uncapitalized words are all
          > >mixed together.
          >
          > I ran a brief test (NoteTab Lite - free, 4.85) and the sort
          > lines feature indeed behaved the same whether Case Sensitive
          > Sorting in the Tools option was checked or not. In
          > particular, it always did a case-INSENSITIVE sort, treating
          > "A" and "a" identically. For example, the following 4
          > lines: A1 / a2 / A3 / a4 always sorted into that order,
          > EVEN when "Case Sensitive" was checked.
          > -- Pete Hoyle

          ===============================================
          Dan Doernberg, dan@...
          Fairness.com LLC
          The Online Guide to Fair Treatment
          Phone: + 1 804/975-0780
          Fax: + 1 804/975-0790
          ===============================================
        • Gauffin Claes
          Hello Dan, Pete I wonder if this question is not based on a misunderstanding of what is meant by case sensitive sorting. As I think it is implemented, case
          Message 4 of 7 , May 16, 2001
            Hello Dan, Pete

            I wonder if this question is not based on a
            misunderstanding of what is meant by case
            sensitive sorting. As I think it is implemented,
            case sensitive ascending sort puts a record with
            lower case before one with upper case
            *when everything else is identical*
            Any other differences between the records take
            precedence. In other words: upper case A is *not*
            considered a new letter with a sort order between
            lower case a and lower case b. Such an algorithm
            would put all words beginning with lower case "a"
            before all words beginning with upper case "A".
            That would not be desirable in most cases,
            putting "abc" quite a distance from "ABC", since
            the latter would end up after "azure".

            This means that A1 / a2 / A3 / a4 quite correctly
            always sort in this order, since there are other
            differences than case, which take precedence.

            But try with A1 / a1 / a2 / A2

            Regards /Claes

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Dan Doernberg [mailto:dan@...]
            > Sent: den 16 maj 2001 22:57
            > To: notetab@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [NTB] capitalization in sorting
            >
            >
            > Thanks Pete... glad for the confirmation that I'm not
            > hallucinating! :->
            >
            > Eric--- perhaps something for the next service release?
            > Certainly not the biggest problem in the world....
            >
            > As always, love this software!!
            >
            > --- dan
            > //////////////////////
            >
            >
            > > >*** On the View menu (View | Options | Tools) I found a
            > > >checkbox for Case Sensitive Sorting.. but whether I check
            > > >it or not, the capitalized and uncapitalized words are all
            > > >mixed together.
            > >
            > > I ran a brief test (NoteTab Lite - free, 4.85) and the sort
            > > lines feature indeed behaved the same whether Case Sensitive
            > > Sorting in the Tools option was checked or not. In
            > > particular, it always did a case-INSENSITIVE sort, treating
            > > "A" and "a" identically. For example, the following 4
            > > lines: A1 / a2 / A3 / a4 always sorted into that order,
            > > EVEN when "Case Sensitive" was checked.
            > > -- Pete Hoyle
            >
          • Dan Doernberg
            Thank you Jody and Claes-- that is indeed the answer to what is going on... but read on, I think there are several interesting things going on here! I tried a
            Message 5 of 7 , May 17, 2001
              Thank you Jody and Claes-- that is indeed the answer to
              what is going on... but read on, I think there are several
              interesting things going on here!

              I tried a 3rd example to make it really clear what's going
              on--- here are complete results:


              Original Test Case
              ==============
              aa
              bb
              cc
              dd
              AA
              BB
              CC
              DD


              Case-Sensitive Sort
              ===================
              aa
              AA
              bb
              BB
              cc
              CC
              dd
              DD


              ASCII sort that Dan expected/wanted
              ===========================
              aa
              bb
              cc
              dd
              AA
              BB
              CC
              DD




              Case IN-sensitive Sort
              (Dup-purging turned OFF at View|Options|Tools)
              =================================
              AA
              aa
              BB
              bb
              cc
              CC
              DD
              dd


              Case IN-sensitive Sort
              (Dup-purging turned ON at View|Options|Tools)
              =================================
              aa
              bb
              cc
              dd

              Comments:

              1) It never occurred to me that "case sensitive sort"
              was anything other than ASCII order (tho I should know
              better than to rely on such assumptions!).

              2) My need is now past (I did an ASCII sort with
              another application), but my hunch is that users would:

              (i) ideally, like the choice of using either sort algorithm

              ii) if that's not possible, I'm guessing more people
              would prefer a traditional ASCII sort over the "case
              differentiation only within the same letter" sort that
              Notetab appears to use currently. If one doesn't care
              about capitalization of the initial letter (put "a" and "A"
              together at top of the list), I doubt there are many cases
              where you care whether or not "Ab" comes before "AB".


              3) In the case insensitive sort, I was surprised that
              "AA" was the first item rather than "aa" (the literally first
              item in the list), though I guess it doesn't matter.

              4) I hadn't thought much about how case-sensitivity +
              Duplicate purging would work... but I was a little surprised
              that "AA" was considered a Duplicate of "aa". *** In other
              words, when users choose "ignore case on sorts" when
              "purge duplicates" is also on, they are not only having an
              impact on sort order, they are also (perhaps
              unknowingly!) having an impact on what original data gets
              retained, even if the data isn't exactly duplicate ("A" vs.
              "a"). My interpretation/expectation would have been that
              the "purge duplicates" option would require items to be
              truly identical, and "ignore case" would just impact sort
              order. I see how it also makes sense as implemented...
              but this could be a really insidious "Gotcha" for the
              unwary!!


              Notetab users--- any comments/preferences on these
              issues?

              --- dan
              //////////////////////


              On 17 May 01, at 8:55, Gauffin Claes wrote:

              > Hello Dan, Pete
              >
              > I wonder if this question is not based on a
              > misunderstanding of what is meant by case
              > sensitive sorting. As I think it is implemented,
              > case sensitive ascending sort puts a record with
              > lower case before one with upper case
              > *when everything else is identical*
              > Any other differences between the records take
              > precedence. In other words: upper case A is *not*
              > considered a new letter with a sort order between
              > lower case a and lower case b. Such an algorithm
              > would put all words beginning with lower case "a"
              > before all words beginning with upper case "A".
              > That would not be desirable in most cases,
              > putting "abc" quite a distance from "ABC", since
              > the latter would end up after "azure".
              >
              > This means that A1 / a2 / A3 / a4 quite correctly
              > always sort in this order, since there are other
              > differences than case, which take precedence.
              >
              > But try with A1 / a1 / a2 / A2
              >
              > Regards /Claes
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Dan Doernberg [mailto:dan@...]
              > > Sent: den 16 maj 2001 22:57
              > > To: notetab@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [NTB] capitalization in sorting
              > >
              > >
              > > Thanks Pete... glad for the confirmation that I'm not
              > > hallucinating! :->
              > >
              > > Eric--- perhaps something for the next service release?
              > > Certainly not the biggest problem in the world....
              > >
              > > As always, love this software!!
              > >
              > > --- dan
              > > //////////////////////
              > >
              > >
              > > > >*** On the View menu (View | Options | Tools) I found a
              > > > >checkbox for Case Sensitive Sorting.. but whether I
              > > > >check it or not, the capitalized and uncapitalized
              > > > >words are all mixed together.
              > > >
              > > > I ran a brief test (NoteTab Lite - free, 4.85) and the
              > > > sort lines feature indeed behaved the same whether Case
              > > > Sensitive Sorting in the Tools option was checked or
              > > > not. In particular, it always did a case-INSENSITIVE
              > > > sort, treating "A" and "a" identically. For example,
              > > > the following 4 lines: A1 / a2 / A3 / a4 always
              > > > sorted into that order, EVEN when "Case Sensitive" was
              > > > checked. -- Pete Hoyle
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >


              ===============================================
              Dan Doernberg, dan@...
              Fairness.com LLC
              The Online Guide to Fair Treatment
              Phone: + 1 804/975-0780
              Fax: + 1 804/975-0790
              ===============================================
            • Pete Hoyle
              ... May well be; I can t find any documented explanation of what case sensitive sort means to NoteTab, or even general sort rules, such as whether tied
              Message 6 of 7 , May 17, 2001
                At 08:55 AM 5/17/01 +0200, Gauffin Claes wrote:
                >.... As I think it is implemented,
                >case sensitive ascending sort puts a record with
                >lower case before one with upper case
                >*when everything else is identical*
                >Any other differences between the records take
                >precedence.

                May well be; I can't find any documented explanation of what "case
                sensitive sort" means to NoteTab, or even general sort rules, such as
                whether tied records go in random order or whether they stay in their
                original order (that would make a difference only for a case
                insensitive sort, since the whole record serves as the key). Many
                programs provide a way to sort (often called case sensitive) that does
                take each character as distinct. Even so, without documentation, we
                would still have to run experiments to determine the collating
                sequence. Two useful ones might be: aAbBcC... and abc...ABC.... Others
                would also be possible where A comes before a.

                The interpretation you give for case sensitive might be useful in
                conjunction with the option that deletes duplicate lines; presumably,
                it would allow the lines "A" and "a" both to remain, whereas one of
                them (which?) would be deleted in a default (case insensitive) sort.
                -- Pete
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