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Lesson question

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  • commander_dagda
    I am working on the lessons from hi.is. In lesson 2, part of the exercise is to translate: Óláfr á bát. Hann heitir Ormr. I am thinking that it is supposed
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 4, 2009
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      I am working on the lessons from hi.is. In lesson 2, part of the
      exercise is to translate:

      Óláfr á bát. Hann heitir Ormr.

      I am thinking that it is supposed to be:

      Olaf owns a boat. It is called Ormr.

      But the original uses the pronoun "hann," where I'm thinking it
      should be "þat." Otherwise, wouldn't it be, "he is called Ormr?"

      Óláfr á bát. "þat" heitir Ormr.

      Nominative case: I you he she it
      Accusative case: me you him her it

      Nominative case: ek þú hann hon þat
      Accusative case: mik þik hann hana þat

      Thank you!
    • AThompson
      bátr (boat) is, grammatically, a masculine noun. Any pronoun that refers to bátr must also be, grammatically, masculine, in all cases, and both singular and
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 5, 2009
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      • llama_nom
        ... That s right. ... In Old Norse, as in many modern European languages, all nouns including inanimate objects have what s known as grammatical gender. In Old
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 5, 2009
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          --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "commander_dagda"
          <randallsims@...> wrote:
          >
          > I am working on the lessons from hi.is. In lesson 2, part of the
          > exercise is to translate:
          >
          > Óláfr á bát. Hann heitir Ormr.
          >
          > I am thinking that it is supposed to be:
          >
          > Olaf owns a boat. It is called Ormr.

          That's right.

          > But the original uses the pronoun "hann," where I'm thinking it
          > should be "þat." Otherwise, wouldn't it be, "he is called Ormr?"

          In Old Norse, as in many modern European languages, all nouns
          including inanimate objects have what's known as grammatical gender.
          In Old Norse, there are three genders: masculine, feminine and neuter.
          Each noun belongs to one of these three categories. Which category a
          noun belongs to can seem quite arbitrary from an English point of
          view. In English, we tend to only use masculine or feminine pronouns
          to refer to a thing if we want (optionally) to personify it, as when
          people call a ship "she". But in Old Norse it's just an inherent part
          of the grammar and depends on the history of the word, rather than
          being a deliberate personification of the object as male or female.
          It's as much a part of the rules of the language as the distinction
          between singular and plural.

          The noun 'bátr' (meaning "boat") happens to be masculine, and so it's
          grammatically correct that a masculine pronoun is used to refer to it.
          On the other hand, 'skip' (meaning "ship") is neuter, so 'þat' would
          be used to refer to "skip", and 'skeið', a type of warship, is
          feminine, so that would be referred to with feminine pronouns.

          > Óláfr á bát. "þat" heitir Ormr.
          >
          > Nominative case: I you he she it
          > Accusative case: me you him her it
          >
          > Nominative case: ek þú hann hon þat
          > Accusative case: mik þik hann hana þat
          >
          > Thank you!
          >
        • Haukur Þorgeirsson
          Indeed. But here s a tricky little passage from Hrólfs saga Gautrekssonar, describing the birth of the eponymous hero: Ok eigi miklu síðar getr Gautrekr
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 6, 2009
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            Indeed. But here's a tricky little passage from Hrólfs saga Gautrekssonar,
            describing the birth of the eponymous hero:

            "Ok eigi miklu síðar getr Gautrekr barn við konu sinni. Þat var sveinbarn
            ok var færðr konungi."

            What do you make of that?

            Regards,
            Haukur


            > bátr (boat) is, grammatically, a masculine noun. Any pronoun that refers
            > to bátr must also be, grammatically, masculine, in all cases, and both
            > singular and plural. Hence, hann (nominative masculine singular) is here
            > used to refer to ‘it’, ie hann may be translated into English as either
            > ‘he’ or ‘it’ depending on whether the noun to which it refers, while
            > grammatically masculine, is in the real world masculine or genderless.
            >
            > I hope this helps.
            >
            > Cheers
            > Alan
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: norse_course@yahoogroups.com [mailto:norse_course@yahoogroups.com]
            > On Behalf Of commander_dagda
            > Sent: Monday, 5 January 2009 3:12 PM
            > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [norse_course] Lesson question
            >
            > I am working on the lessons from hi.is. In lesson 2, part of the
            > exercise is to translate:
            >
            > Óláfr á bát. Hann heitir Ormr.
            >
            > I am thinking that it is supposed to be:
            >
            > Olaf owns a boat. It is called Ormr.
            >
            > But the original uses the pronoun "hann," where I'm thinking it
            > should be "þat." Otherwise, wouldn't it be, "he is called Ormr?"
            >
            > Óláfr á bát. "þat" heitir Ormr.
            >
            > Nominative case: I you he she it
            > Accusative case: me you him her it
            >
            > Nominative case: ek þú hann hon þat
            > Accusative case: mik þik hann hana þat
            >
            > Thank you!
            >
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
            > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date:
            > 1/5/2009 9:44 AM
            >
            >
          • Patti (Wilson)
            Saell Haukur That looks interesting - may I join in And a little after that Gautrek begot a child with his wife, and he was a boy-child and was the father of
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 6, 2009
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              Saell Haukur
              That looks interesting  - may I join in
               
              "And a little after that Gautrek begot a child with his wife, and he was a boy-child
              and was the father of a king" -
              or does it mean that he was fathered by a king
               
              I wonder would they make a point of that - Mrs. Gautrek - would not have been
              unfaithful - ??  not even with a king
              I am just home from College and just noticed this I like to take part when I can
              Kveðja
              Patricia
               
              -------Original Message-------
               
              Date: 06/01/2009 14:27:03
              Subject: RE: [norse_course] Lesson question
               
              Indeed. But here's a tricky little passage from Hrólfs saga Gautrekssonar,
              describing the birth of the eponymous hero:
               
              "Ok eigi miklu síðar getr Gautrekr barn við konu sinni. Þat var sveinbarn
              ok var færðr konungi."
               
              What do you make of that?
               
              Regards,
              Haukur
               
               
              > bátr (boat) is, grammatically, a masculine noun. Any pronoun that refers
              > to bátr must also be, grammatically, masculine, in all cases, and both
              > singular and plural. Hence, hann (nominative masculine singular) is here
              > used to refer to ‘it’, ie hann may be translated into English as either
              > ‘he’ or ‘it’ depending on whether the noun to which it refers, while
              > grammatically masculine, is in the real world masculine or genderless.
              >
              > I hope this helps.
              >
              > Cheers
              > Alan
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > On Behalf Of commander_dagda
              > Sent: Monday, 5 January 2009 3:12 PM
              > Subject: [norse_course] Lesson question
              >
              > I am working on the lessons from hi.is. In lesson 2, part of the
              > exercise is to translate:
              >
              > Óláfr á bát. Hann heitir Ormr.
              >
              > I am thinking that it is supposed to be:
              >
              > Olaf owns a boat. It is called Ormr.
              >
              > But the original uses the pronoun "hann," where I'm thinking it
              > should be "þat." Otherwise, wouldn't it be, "he is called Ormr?"
              >
              > Óláfr á bát. "þat" heitir Ormr.
              >
              > Nominative case: I you he she it
              > Accusative case: me you him her it
              >
              > Nominative case: ek þú hann hon þat
              > Accusative case: mik þik hann hana þat
              >
              > Thank you!
              >
              > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
              > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date:
              > 1/5/2009 9:44 AM
              >
              >
               
               
               
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            • Haukur Þorgeirsson
              Sæl Patricia! Looks like you were in a bit of a rush there, check færðr again. Kveðja, Haukur
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 6, 2009
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                Sæl Patricia!

                Looks like you were in a bit of a rush there, check 'færðr' again.

                Kveðja,
                Haukur


                > Saell Haukur
                > That looks interesting - may I join in
                >
                > "And a little after that Gautrek begot a child with his wife, and he was a
                > boy-child
                > and was the father of a king" -
                > or does it mean that he was fathered by a king
                >
                > I wonder would they make a point of that - Mrs. Gautrek - would not have
                > been
                > unfaithful - ?? not even with a king
                > I am just home from College and just noticed this I like to take part when
                > I
                > can
                > Kveðja
                > Patricia
                >
                > -------Original Message-------
                >
                > From: Haukur Þorgeirsson
                > Date: 06/01/2009 14:27:03
                > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: [norse_course] Lesson question
                >
                > Indeed. But here's a tricky little passage from Hrólfs saga
                > Gautrekssonar,
                > describing the birth of the eponymous hero:
                >
                > "Ok eigi miklu síðar getr Gautrekr barn við konu sinni. Þat var sveinbarn
                > ok var færðr konungi."
                >
                > What do you make of that?
                >
                > Regards,
                > Haukur
                >
                >
                >> bátr (boat) is, grammatically, a masculine noun. Any pronoun that
                >> refers
                >> to bátr must also be, grammatically, masculine, in all cases, and both
                >> singular and plural. Hence, hann (nominative masculine singular) is
                >> here
                >> used to refer to ‘it’, ie hann may be translated into English as either
                >> ‘he’ or ‘it’ depending on whether the noun to which it refers, while
                >> grammatically masculine, is in the real world masculine or genderless.
                >>
                >> I hope this helps.
                >>
                >> Cheers
                >> Alan
                >>
                >> -----Original Message-----
                >> From: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                >> [mailto:norse_course@yahoogroups.com]
                >> On Behalf Of commander_dagda
                >> Sent: Monday, 5 January 2009 3:12 PM
                >> To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                >> Subject: [norse_course] Lesson question
                >>
                >> I am working on the lessons from hi.is. In lesson 2, part of the
                >> exercise is to translate:
                >>
                >> Óláfr á bát. Hann heitir Ormr.
                >>
                >> I am thinking that it is supposed to be:
                >>
                >> Olaf owns a boat. It is called Ormr.
                >>
                >> But the original uses the pronoun "hann," where I'm thinking it
                >> should be "þat." Otherwise, wouldn't it be, "he is called Ormr?"
                >>
                >> Óláfr á bát. "þat" heitir Ormr.
                >>
                >> Nominative case: I you he she it
                >> Accusative case: me you him her it
                >>
                >> Nominative case: ek þú hann hon þat
                >> Accusative case: mik þik hann hana þat
                >>
                >> Thank you!
                >>
                >> No virus found in this incoming message.
                >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                >> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date:
                >> 1/5/2009 9:44 AM
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
                >
                > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
                >
                > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
                >
                > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Patti (Wilson)
                OOooops - yes I checked Zoega and Cleasby and there is something like being brought to the King in Zoega I believe it seems to suggest to me the little boy
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 6, 2009
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                  OOooops - yes I checked Zoega and Cleasby and there is something like being brought to the King
                  in Zoega  I believe it seems to suggest to me the little boy was given to the King.
                  Perhaps given to serve the king at an early age - the other word færi refers to the condition  of the road
                   i.e. the Way I believe Haukur you can blame my keeness to join in - I have missed  my work with the Group and
                  hope to be back shortly
                  Kveðja
                  Patricia 
                   
                  -------Original Message-------
                   
                  Date: 06/01/2009 14:56:46
                  Subject: RE: [norse_course] Lesson question
                   
                  Sæl Patricia!
                   
                  Looks like you were in a bit of a rush there, check 'færðr' again.
                   
                  Kveðja,
                  Haukur
                   
                   
                  > Saell Haukur
                  > That looks interesting  - may I join in
                  >
                  > "And a little after that Gautrek begot a child with his wife, and he was a
                  > boy-child
                  > and was the father of a king" -
                  > or does it mean that he was fathered by a king
                  >
                  > I wonder would they make a point of that - Mrs. Gautrek - would not have
                  > been
                  > unfaithful - ??  not even with a king
                  > I am just home from College and just noticed this I like to take part when
                  > I
                  > can
                  > Kveðja
                  > Patricia
                  >
                  > -------Original Message-------
                  >
                  > From: Haukur Þorgeirsson
                  > Date: 06/01/2009 14:27:03
                  > Subject: RE: [norse_course] Lesson question
                  >
                  > Indeed. But here's a tricky little passage from Hrólfs saga
                  > Gautrekssonar,
                  > describing the birth of the eponymous hero:
                  >
                  > "Ok eigi miklu síðar getr Gautrekr barn við konu sinni. Þat var sveinbarn
                  > ok var færðr konungi."
                  >
                  > What do you make of that?
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Haukur
                  >
                  >
                  >> bátr (boat) is, grammatically, a masculine noun. Any pronoun that
                  >> refers
                  >> to bátr must also be, grammatically, masculine, in all cases, and both
                  >> singular and plural. Hence, hann (nominative masculine singular) is
                  >> here
                  >> used to refer to ‘it’, ie hann may be translated into English as either
                  >> ‘he’ or ‘it’ depending on whether the noun to which it refers, while
                  >> grammatically masculine, is in the real world masculine or genderless.
                  >>
                  >> I hope this helps.
                  >>
                  >> Cheers
                  >> Alan
                  >>
                  >> -----Original Message-----
                  >> On Behalf Of commander_dagda
                  >> Sent: Monday, 5 January 2009 3:12 PM
                  >> Subject: [norse_course] Lesson question
                  >>
                  >> I am working on the lessons from hi.is. In lesson 2, part of the
                  >> exercise is to translate:
                  >>
                  >> Óláfr á bát. Hann heitir Ormr.
                  >>
                  >> I am thinking that it is supposed to be:
                  >>
                  >> Olaf owns a boat. It is called Ormr.
                  >>
                  >> But the original uses the pronoun "hann," where I'm thinking it
                  >> should be "þat." Otherwise, wouldn't it be, "he is called Ormr?"
                  >>
                  >> Óláfr á bát. "þat" heitir Ormr.
                  >>
                  >> Nominative case: I you he she it
                  >> Accusative case: me you him her it
                  >>
                  >> Nominative case: ek þú hann hon þat
                  >> Accusative case: mik þik hann hana þat
                  >>
                  >> Thank you!
                  >>
                  >> No virus found in this incoming message.
                  >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                  >> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date:
                  >> 1/5/2009 9:44 AM
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
                  >
                  >
                  > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                   
                   
                   
                  ------------------------------------
                   
                  A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
                   
                   
                  To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
                   
                   
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                  <*> Your email settings:
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                • Haukur Þorgeirsson
                  Right, brought to the king. What I wanted to draw attention to is that sveinbarn is a neuter noun but the adjective færðr is in the masculine form so it
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 6, 2009
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                    Right, brought to the king. What I wanted to draw attention to is that
                    'sveinbarn' is a neuter noun but the adjective 'færðr' is in the masculine
                    form so it would seem that in this case the natural gender has overridden
                    the grammatical one.

                    Kveðja,
                    Haukur


                    > OOooops - yes I checked Zoega and Cleasby and there is something like
                    > being
                    > brought to the King
                    > in Zoega I believe it seems to suggest to me the little boy was given to
                    > the King.
                    > Perhaps given to serve the king at an early age - the other word færi
                    > refers
                    > to the condition of the road
                    > i.e. the Way I believe Haukur you can blame my keeness to join in - I
                    > have
                    > missed my work with the Group and
                    > hope to be back shortly
                    > Kveðja
                    > Patricia
                    >
                    > -------Original Message-------
                    >
                    > From: Haukur Þorgeirsson
                    > Date: 06/01/2009 14:56:46
                    > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: RE: [norse_course] Lesson question
                    >
                    > Sæl Patricia!
                    >
                    > Looks like you were in a bit of a rush there, check 'færðr' again.
                    >
                    > Kveðja,
                    > Haukur
                    >
                    >
                    >> Saell Haukur
                    >> That looks interesting - may I join in
                    >>
                    >> "And a little after that Gautrek begot a child with his wife, and he was
                    >> a
                    >> boy-child
                    >> and was the father of a king" -
                    >> or does it mean that he was fathered by a king
                    >>
                    >> I wonder would they make a point of that - Mrs. Gautrek - would not
                    >> have
                    >> been
                    >> unfaithful - ?? not even with a king
                    >> I am just home from College and just noticed this I like to take part
                    >> when
                    >> I
                    >> can
                    >> Kveðja
                    >> Patricia
                    >>
                    >> -------Original Message-------
                    >>
                    >> From: Haukur Þorgeirsson
                    >> Date: 06/01/2009 14:27:03
                    >> To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                    >> Subject: RE: [norse_course] Lesson question
                    >>
                    >> Indeed. But here's a tricky little passage from Hrólfs saga
                    >> Gautrekssonar,
                    >> describing the birth of the eponymous hero:
                    >>
                    >> "Ok eigi miklu síðar getr Gautrekr barn við konu sinni. Þat var
                    >> sveinbarn
                    >> ok var færðr konungi."
                    >>
                    >> What do you make of that?
                    >>
                    >> Regards,
                    >> Haukur
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>> bátr (boat) is, grammatically, a masculine noun. Any pronoun that
                    >>> refers
                    >>> to bátr must also be, grammatically, masculine, in all cases, and both
                    >>> singular and plural. Hence, hann (nominative masculine singular) is
                    >>> here
                    >>> used to refer to ‘it’, ie hann may be translated into English as
                    >>> either
                    >>> ‘he’ or ‘it’ depending on whether the noun to which it refers, while
                    >>> grammatically masculine, is in the real world masculine or genderless.
                    >>>
                    >>> I hope this helps.
                    >>>
                    >>> Cheers
                    >>> Alan
                    >>>
                    >>> -----Original Message-----
                    >>> From: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                    >>> [mailto:norse_course@yahoogroups.com]
                    >>> On Behalf Of commander_dagda
                    >>> Sent: Monday, 5 January 2009 3:12 PM
                    >>> To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                    >>> Subject: [norse_course] Lesson question
                    >>>
                    >>> I am working on the lessons from hi.is. In lesson 2, part of the
                    >>> exercise is to translate:
                    >>>
                    >>> Óláfr á bát. Hann heitir Ormr.
                    >>>
                    >>> I am thinking that it is supposed to be:
                    >>>
                    >>> Olaf owns a boat. It is called Ormr.
                    >>>
                    >>> But the original uses the pronoun "hann," where I'm thinking it
                    >>> should be "þat." Otherwise, wouldn't it be, "he is called Ormr?"
                    >>>
                    >>> Óláfr á bát. "þat" heitir Ormr.
                    >>>
                    >>> Nominative case: I you he she it
                    >>> Accusative case: me you him her it
                    >>>
                    >>> Nominative case: ek þú hann hon þat
                    >>> Accusative case: mik þik hann hana þat
                    >>>
                    >>> Thank you!
                    >>>
                    >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
                    >>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                    >>> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date:
                    >>> 1/5/2009 9:44 AM
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ------------------------------------
                    >>
                    >> A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
                    >>
                    >> Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
                    >>
                    >> To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
                    >>
                    >> norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
                    >
                    > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
                    >
                    > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
                    >
                    > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Patti (Wilson)
                    Well there you are then Haukur - I have missed my work with the Group so much and become out of practice - it was a good exercise and I thank you for the
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 6, 2009
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                      Well there you are then Haukur - I have missed my work with the Group so much
                      and become out of practice - it was a good exercise and I thank you for the
                      opportuntiy of trying my luck with it
                      Kveðja
                      Patricia 
                       
                      -------Original Message-------
                       
                      Date: 06/01/2009 15:38:27
                      Subject: RE: [norse_course] Lesson question
                       
                      Right, brought to the king. What I wanted to draw attention to is that
                      'sveinbarn' is a neuter noun but the adjective 'færðr' is in the masculine
                      form so it would seem that in this case the natural gender has overridden
                      the grammatical one.
                       
                      Kveðja,
                      Haukur
                       
                       
                      > OOooops - yes I checked Zoega and Cleasby and there is something like
                      > being
                      > brought to the King
                      > in Zoega  I believe it seems to suggest to me the little boy was given to
                      > the King.
                      > Perhaps given to serve the king at an early age - the other word færi
                      > refers
                      > to the condition  of the road
                      >  i.e. the Way I believe Haukur you can blame my keeness to join in - I
                      > have
                      > missed  my work with the Group and
                      > hope to be back shortly
                      > Kveðja
                      > Patricia
                      >
                      > -------Original Message-------
                      >
                      > From: Haukur Þorgeirsson
                      > Date: 06/01/2009 14:56:46
                      > Subject: RE: [norse_course] Lesson question
                      >
                      > Sæl Patricia!
                      >
                      > Looks like you were in a bit of a rush there, check 'færðr' again.
                      >
                      > Kveðja,
                      > Haukur
                      >
                      >
                      >> Saell Haukur
                      >> That looks interesting  - may I join in
                      >>
                      >> "And a little after that Gautrek begot a child with his wife, and he was
                      >> a
                      >> boy-child
                      >> and was the father of a king" -
                      >> or does it mean that he was fathered by a king
                      >>
                      >> I wonder would they make a point of that - Mrs. Gautrek - would not
                      >> have
                      >> been
                      >> unfaithful - ??  not even with a king
                      >> I am just home from College and just noticed this I like to take part
                      >> when
                      >> I
                      >> can
                      >> Kveðja
                      >> Patricia
                      >>
                      >> -------Original Message-------
                      >>
                      >> From: Haukur Þorgeirsson
                      >> Date: 06/01/2009 14:27:03
                      >> Subject: RE: [norse_course] Lesson question
                      >>
                      >> Indeed. But here's a tricky little passage from Hrólfs saga
                      >> Gautrekssonar,
                      >> describing the birth of the eponymous hero:
                      >>
                      >> "Ok eigi miklu síðar getr Gautrekr barn við konu sinni. Þat var
                      >> sveinbarn
                      >> ok var færðr konungi."
                      >>
                      >> What do you make of that?
                      >>
                      >> Regards,
                      >> Haukur
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>> bátr (boat) is, grammatically, a masculine noun. Any pronoun that
                      >>> refers
                      >>> to bátr must also be, grammatically, masculine, in all cases, and both
                      >>> singular and plural. Hence, hann (nominative masculine singular) is
                      >>> here
                      >>> used to refer to ‘it’, ie hann may be translated into English as
                      >>> either
                      >>> ‘he’ or ‘it’ depending on whether the noun to which it refers, while
                      >>> grammatically masculine, is in the real world masculine or genderless.
                      >>>
                      >>> I hope this helps.
                      >>>
                      >>> Cheers
                      >>> Alan
                      >>>
                      >>> -----Original Message-----
                      >>> On Behalf Of commander_dagda
                      >>> Sent: Monday, 5 January 2009 3:12 PM
                      >>> Subject: [norse_course] Lesson question
                      >>>
                      >>> I am working on the lessons from hi.is. In lesson 2, part of the
                      >>> exercise is to translate:
                      >>>
                      >>> Óláfr á bát. Hann heitir Ormr.
                      >>>
                      >>> I am thinking that it is supposed to be:
                      >>>
                      >>> Olaf owns a boat. It is called Ormr.
                      >>>
                      >>> But the original uses the pronoun "hann," where I'm thinking it
                      >>> should be "þat." Otherwise, wouldn't it be, "he is called Ormr?"
                      >>>
                      >>> Óláfr á bát. "þat" heitir Ormr.
                      >>>
                      >>> Nominative case: I you he she it
                      >>> Accusative case: me you him her it
                      >>>
                      >>> Nominative case: ek þú hann hon þat
                      >>> Accusative case: mik þik hann hana þat
                      >>>
                      >>> Thank you!
                      >>>
                      >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
                      >>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                      >>> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date:
                      >>> 1/5/2009 9:44 AM
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> ------------------------------------
                      >>
                      >> A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
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                      >
                      > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
                      >
                      >
                      > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
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                    • AThompson
                      Indeed, but couldn’t this just be an example of a grammatical slip by the author or amanuensis? Or is that too simple an explanation? For someone who’s
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 7, 2009
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                      • Haukur Þorgeirsson
                        Indeed, there are some tricky issues here. Let s take some examples from the modern language. We have a common colloquial word for a child, krakki ,
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 7, 2009
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                          Indeed, there are some tricky issues here. Let's take some examples from
                          the modern language. We have a common colloquial word for a child,
                          'krakki', corresponding approximately to 'kid'. Now, this is a masculine
                          word but it can be applied to children of both sexes. Let's imagine a
                          situation with a group with children of both sexes - the kids are here and
                          they're hungry. How would I say that? If I do it with two sentences it may
                          go something like this:

                          #1 Krakkarnir eru komnir. Þeir eru svangir.
                          #2 Krakkarnir eru komnir. Þau eru svöng.

                          Some pedants might insist that #1 is the only correct way but I think #2
                          is perfectly acceptable and something many people would say. As long as I
                          get to start a new sentence I feel free to revert to the natural gender.
                          But what if I get less of a break?

                          #3 Krakkarnir eru komnir og eru svöng.
                          #4 Krakkarnir eru komnir og svöng.
                          #5 Krakkarnir eru komin og svöng.

                          I think #3 is a borderline sentence and #4 is probably not acceptable
                          while #5 is even less acceptable.

                          While English doesn't have grammatical gender which can be at odds with
                          natural gender I think something similar may be seen in that language. It
                          certainly has grammatical number and there's ample opportunity for that to
                          be at odds with the natural number. Consider these examples:

                          #1 The Government is minded to support the amendment.
                          #2 The Government are minded to support the amendment.

                          I understand #1 is acceptable for all English speakers but #2 is chiefly
                          acceptable in Britain. A government is an abstract entity but it's also a
                          group of people. The latter conception can, at least in British English,
                          lead to a natural plural overriding the grammatical singular. Isn't that
                          somewhat similar to the gender quandary?

                          Regards,
                          Haukur


                          > Indeed, but couldn’t this just be an example of a grammatical slip by
                          > the author or amanuensis? Or is that too simple an explanation? For
                          > someone who’s native language is English and for whom the concept of
                          > grammatical gender is a complete novelty, such a slip would seem
                          > perfectly natural. But I am wondering whether inadvertant use of natural
                          > gender would be possible to an Icelander, for whom thinking in terms of
                          > grammatical gender would seem practically inherent. Or do you really
                          > have to think about it?
                          >
                          > Kveðja
                          > Alan
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: norse_course@yahoogroups.com [mailto:norse_course@yahoogroups.com]
                          > On Behalf Of Haukur Þorgeirsson
                          > Sent: Wednesday, 7 January 2009 2:38 AM
                          > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: RE: [norse_course] Lesson question
                          >
                          > Right, brought to the king. What I wanted to draw attention to is that
                          > 'sveinbarn' is a neuter noun but the adjective 'færðr' is in the
                          > masculine
                          > form so it would seem that in this case the natural gender has
                          > overridden
                          > the grammatical one.
                          >
                          > Kveðja,
                          > Haukur
                          >
                          >> OOooops - yes I checked Zoega and Cleasby and there is something like
                          >> being
                          >> brought to the King
                          >> in Zoega I believe it seems to suggest to me the little boy was given
                          > to
                          >> the King.
                          >> Perhaps given to serve the king at an early age - the other word færi
                          >> refers
                          >> to the condition of the road
                          >> i.e. the Way I believe Haukur you can blame my keeness to join in - I
                          >> have
                          >> missed my work with the Group and
                          >> hope to be back shortly
                          >> Kveðja
                          >> Patricia
                          >>
                          >> -------Original Message-------
                          >>
                          >> From: Haukur Þorgeirsson
                          >> Date: 06/01/2009 14:56:46
                          >> To: norse_course@ <mailto:norse_course%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com
                          >> Subject: RE: [norse_course] Lesson question
                          >>
                          >> Sæl Patricia!
                          >>
                          >> Looks like you were in a bit of a rush there, check 'færðr' again.
                          >>
                          >> Kveðja,
                          >> Haukur
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>> Saell Haukur
                          >>> That looks interesting - may I join in
                          >>>
                          >>> "And a little after that Gautrek begot a child with his wife, and he
                          > was
                          >>> a
                          >>> boy-child
                          >>> and was the father of a king" -
                          >>> or does it mean that he was fathered by a king
                          >>>
                          >>> I wonder would they make a point of that - Mrs. Gautrek - would not
                          >>> have
                          >>> been
                          >>> unfaithful - ?? not even with a king
                          >>> I am just home from College and just noticed this I like to take part
                          >>> when
                          >>> I
                          >>> can
                          >>> Kveðja
                          >>> Patricia
                          >>>
                          >>> -------Original Message-------
                          >>>
                          >>> From: Haukur Þorgeirsson
                          >>> Date: 06/01/2009 14:27:03
                          >>> To: norse_course@ <mailto:norse_course%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com
                          >>> Subject: RE: [norse_course] Lesson question
                          >>>
                          >>> Indeed. But here's a tricky little passage from Hrólfs saga
                          >>> Gautrekssonar,
                          >>> describing the birth of the eponymous hero:
                          >>>
                          >>> "Ok eigi miklu síðar getr Gautrekr barn við konu sinni. Þat var
                          >>> sveinbarn
                          >>> ok var færðr konungi."
                          >>>
                          >>> What do you make of that?
                          >>>
                          >>> Regards,
                          >>> Haukur
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>> bátr (boat) is, grammatically, a masculine noun. Any pronoun that
                          >>>> refers
                          >>>> to bátr must also be, grammatically, masculine, in all cases, and
                          > both
                          >>>> singular and plural. Hence, hann (nominative masculine singular) is
                          >>>> here
                          >>>> used to refer to ‘it’, ie hann may be translated into English as
                          >>>> either
                          >>>> ‘he’ or ‘it’ depending on whether the noun to which it refers, while
                          >>>> grammatically masculine, is in the real world masculine or
                          > genderless.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> I hope this helps.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Cheers
                          >>>> Alan
                          >>>>
                          >>>> -----Original Message-----
                          >>>> From: norse_course@ <mailto:norse_course%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com
                          >>>> [mailto:norse_course@ <mailto:norse_course%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com]
                          >>>> On Behalf Of commander_dagda
                          >>>> Sent: Monday, 5 January 2009 3:12 PM
                          >>>> To: norse_course@ <mailto:norse_course%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com
                          >>>> Subject: [norse_course] Lesson question
                          >>>>
                          >>>> I am working on the lessons from hi.is. In lesson 2, part of the
                          >>>> exercise is to translate:
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Óláfr á bát. Hann heitir Ormr.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> I am thinking that it is supposed to be:
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Olaf owns a boat. It is called Ormr.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> But the original uses the pronoun "hann," where I'm thinking it
                          >>>> should be "þat." Otherwise, wouldn't it be, "he is called Ormr?"
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Óláfr á bát. "þat" heitir Ormr.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Nominative case: I you he she it
                          >>>> Accusative case: me you him her it
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Nominative case: ek þú hann hon þat
                          >>>> Accusative case: mik þik hann hana þat
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Thank you!
                          >>>>
                          >>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
                          >>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg <http://www.avg.com> com
                          >>>> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date:
                          >>>> 1/5/2009 9:44 AM
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>
                          >>> A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
                          >>>
                          >>> Homepage: http://www.hi <http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/>
                          > is/~haukurth/norse/
                          >>>
                          >>> To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
                          >>>
                          >>> norse_course-
                          > <mailto:norse_course-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo>
                          > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> ------------------------------------
                          >>
                          >> A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
                          >>
                          >> Homepage: http://www.hi <http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/>
                          > is/~haukurth/norse/
                          >>
                          >> To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
                          >>
                          >> norse_course- <mailto:norse_course-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo>
                          > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          > No virus found in this incoming message.
                          > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                          > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date:
                          > 1/6/2009 5:16 PM
                          >
                          >
                        • llama_nom
                          #1 The Government is minded to support the amendment. #2 The Government are minded to support the amendment. I can confirm that the latter is an equally
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jan 7, 2009
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                            #1 The Government is minded to support the amendment.
                            #2 The Government are minded to support the amendment.

                            I can confirm that the latter is an equally acceptable alternative for
                            me in British English, although #1 might be considered more formally
                            correct. But I think we'd always use #1 if we were talking about the
                            government as an institution, rather than as a particular group of people.

                            #3 The government is our servant.

                            The police, on the other hand, feels decidedly plural. I wouldn't use
                            #5, although a quick trawl of Google News suggests that it might be
                            acceptable in some parts of the English-speaking world (including
                            India and the Caribbean), at least as an alternative. But either
                            singular or plural sounds okay to me when a particular police
                            authority is the subject.

                            #4 The police have denied these claims.
                            #5 ??The police has denied these claims.
                            #6 South Yorkshire Police { has, have } denied these claims.
                            #7 The police is an institution which enforces the law.

                            As in the case of the government, in #7, I'd use the singular verb,
                            because there the police is a more abstract idea, an institution,
                            rather than a group of people doing something on a specific occasion.

                            *

                            Back to Old Norse, there's a curious example in Skáldskaparmál where
                            neuter singular used in place of masculine plural. I don't know why
                            that is. It doesn't seem to be a conflict between natural gender and
                            grammatical gender.

                            #10 hér er kallat hvalir Viðblinda geltir
                            here whales are called Viðblindi's boars
                            (Skáldskaparmál 46)

                            I wonder if it's a similar phenomenon to the English fluctuation
                            between singular and plural in sentences like the following, #8 being
                            a colloquial alternative.

                            #8 there's four of them
                            #9 there are four of them
                          • Haukur Þorgeirsson
                            ... Yes, I think you could say it s a similar phenomenon. I think in both cases we re dealing with markedness . In English (and other languages) singular is
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jan 7, 2009
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                              > Back to Old Norse, there's a curious example in Skáldskaparmál where
                              > neuter singular used in place of masculine plural. I don't know why
                              > that is. It doesn't seem to be a conflict between natural gender and
                              > grammatical gender.
                              >
                              > #10 hér er kallat hvalir Viðblinda geltir
                              > here whales are called Viðblindi's boars
                              > (Skáldskaparmál 46)
                              >
                              > I wonder if it's a similar phenomenon to the English fluctuation
                              > between singular and plural in sentences like the following, #8 being
                              > a colloquial alternative.
                              >
                              > #8 there's four of them
                              > #9 there are four of them

                              Yes, I think you could say it's a similar phenomenon. I think in both
                              cases we're dealing with 'markedness'. In English (and other languages)
                              singular is the unmarked number so in some dialects and some contexts it
                              can be used where plural would technically be called for. I think in Old
                              Norse the neuter singular of adjectives might similarly be an unmarked
                              default form.

                              Here are some more examples from Snorri's Edda:

                              "þat var í forneskju kvinnabúnaðr er kallat var steinasörvi"
                              "ljóð þau er kallat er Gróttasöngr"
                              "Af hennar heiti er kallat snotr kona eða karlmaðr sá er hóflátr er"

                              (Grabbed from a Google search, I haven't checked this down to the
                              manuscripts or anything like that.)

                              Compare with this sentence from Sæmundr's Edda:

                              "Helgi ok Sigrún er kallat at væri endrborin"

                              This is slightly different, isn't it? We can parse it like this:

                              "Kallat er at [Helgi ok Sigrún væri endrborin]"

                              Yet it seems like a short step from this easy-to-parse example to your
                              hard-to-parse example.

                              Kveðja,
                              Haukur
                            • llama_nom
                              Interesting. The idea of neuter singular as the least marked combination of gender and number ties in with its use for past participles with the auxiliary
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jan 7, 2009
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                                Interesting. The idea of neuter singular as the least marked
                                combination of gender and number ties in with its use for past
                                participles with the auxiliary 'hafa' to form the perfect tense, and
                                in the passive with verbs that select dative or genitive.

                                (1) mönnum varð borgit flestum
                                "most of the people were saved"

                                In Gothic too there are a few instances of natural gender or number
                                winning out over grammatically "correct" forms, as well as scattered
                                examples of neuter past participles used as a default where another
                                gender would be expected.

                                (2) þannu gatauran ist marzeins galgins
                                "then the offence of the cross is destroyed"

                                (3) ei kanniþ wesi...handugei gudis
                                "that the wisdom of God be made known"

                                (4) at þaimei gatarniþ ist sunja
                                "from whom the truth is lacking"

                                (5) iþ ufarassiþ <warþ> ansts fraujins
                                "and the grace of the Lord was abundant"

                                In each of these examples, the Gothic combination of auxiliary verb
                                and past participle corresponds to a single verb in the Greek
                                original, although normally when this happens grammatical gender
                                agreement is observed. In (3), the past participle is separated from
                                the (feminine) noun by quite a long way, which might have something to
                                do with it.

                                Regarding number, Richard Nielsen posted to Old Norse Net a while back
                                a list of examples of singular verbs used for plural in Swedish
                                diplomas of the 14th century [
                                http://lists.mun.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0710D&L=ONN&P=R71980&I=-3 ].
                                Unfortunately the context is missing for some of them, but a lot of
                                those that do have some context are in relative clauses, in particular
                                a certain kind of legal formula. I don't know if that's an artefect of
                                the search method or the nature of the corpus, or a genuine tendency.

                                (6) Them sum epter komber
                                "those who come after"

                                (7) þøm þær æptir comber sum þøm þær nw aer.
                                "those who come after even as those who now are [living]"

                                If it is significant that number-agreement occasionally fails in such
                                contexts in Old Swedish, and not just the first signs of the general
                                decline of the plural in spoken Swedish, I wonder if it might (at
                                least sometimes) have something to do with confusion between the
                                concepts of "each" and "all". "Each" is singular, "all" is plural, but
                                they often amount to the same thing:

                                (8) each of those who come(s) after
                                (9) all of those who come after

                                Another factor in the case of (8) is the ambiguity over whether the
                                subject is "each" or "those". Another English example that comes to mind:

                                (10) {there's, there are } loads/lots of them
                                (11) { there's, there are } a lot of them

                                In (10) the first option is just the regular colloquial use of
                                singular as a default. In (11), the prescriptively erroneous plural
                                could be motivated by the empatically plural sense of the
                                grammatically singular noun, but might also be a hypercorrection
                                formed by analogy with (10).
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