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  • Tim Stridmann
    Dear Sirs and Ladies! Let me introduce the second lesson of my course: http://norse.ulver.com/onorse/les40/lesson2e.html All suggestions are welcome! Tim
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 2, 2007
      Dear Sirs and Ladies!
      Let me introduce the second lesson of my course:
      http://norse.ulver.com/onorse/les40/lesson2e.html
      All suggestions are welcome!
      Tim Stridmann
    • llama_nom
      ... Hi Tim, Great idea! Thanks for posting the link. I like the cartoons too, especially Kráka s fishy ornaments. An older form of éta is eta . But I m
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 2, 2007
        --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Stridmann" <stridmann@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Dear Sirs and Ladies!
        > Let me introduce the second lesson of my course:
        > http://norse.ulver.com/onorse/les40/lesson2e.html
        > All suggestions are welcome!
        > Tim Stridmann


        Hi Tim,

        Great idea! Thanks for posting the link. I like the cartoons too,
        especially Kráka's fishy ornaments.

        An older form of 'éta' is 'eta'. But I'm not sure when the vowel was
        lengthened, or whether there's any anachronism in using 'éta'
        alongside other old forms.

        'Vér eigum þrjú börn.' Wouldn't the dual 'vit' be used here rather
        than 'vér'?

        'Hrafn er heimskri mér.' Should this be 'heimskari'? E.g. Gísla
        saga: Hon fór heim ok var þá nökkuru heimskari en áðr ef á mætti goeða
        "She went home and was them rather more foolish than before, if that
        was possible."

        'elska at...' Is it possible that this is a modernism? I'm not sure
        about that, but I couldn't find any Old Icelandic examples in
        Cleasby/Vigfússon or Fritzner, or in the Órðabók Háskólans database.

        http://www.lexis.hi.is/corpus/leit.pl?lemma=elska&ofl=&leita=1&flokkar=Fornrit&m1=elska+elskan+elskanna+elskna+elsknanna+elsku+elskum+elskuna+elskunnar+elskunni+elskunum+elskur+elskurnar+elskann&l1=Leita&m2=elska+elska%F0+elska%F0a+elska%F0an+elska%F0ar+elska%F0i+elska%F0ir+elska%F0ist+elska%F0ra+elska%F0rar+elska%F0ri+elska%F0s+elska%F0u+elska%F0ur+elskandi+elskar+elskast+elski+elski%F0+elskir+elskist+elsku%F0+elsku%F0u+elsku%F0u%F0+elsku%F0um+elsku%F0umst+elsku%F0ust+elskum+elskumst+elskazt&lmax=2

        Llama Nom
      • llama_nom
        A couple more minor points that just occurred to me: hundrad (on the English side) should be hundred As a native speaker of (British) English, I would say
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 2, 2007
          A couple more minor points that just occurred to me:

          'hundrad' (on the English side) should be 'hundred'

          As a native speaker of (British) English, I would say either "I am
          eleven" or "I am eleven years old" (but probably not * "I am eleven
          years", unless I really wanted to emphasise "years" for some reason,
          e.g. if someone has suggested that I was eleven months, or eleven
          centuries). If I was an unusual age (such as 200!), I would probably
          use the longer version, "I am 200 years old", if I wanted to avoid any
          confusion on the part of the listener.

          "I am oldest/youngest." I think it would be more normal to say in
          English "I am the oldest/youngest" in this context.

          "I am trollish girl." I would expect the indefinite article here: "I
          am a troll-girl."

          Ok feðgin mín eru trollar. 'troll' is a neuter noun, so the
          nominative plural is 'troll' just like the singular.

          "Eotonsdotter". The Old English cognate 'eoten' survived in later
          English with various spellings. The most recent example in the Oxford
          English dictionary is from 1611, 'ettin'. So, as an alternative
          possibility, you could have "Ettin's daughter" or "Etten's daughter"
          or similar -- but I guess that's a matter of taste. The word is
          obsolete, and fell out of use before a single fixed system of spelling
          was established. It's probably best known nowadays from JRR Tolkien's
          invented placename The Ettenmoors [
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ettenmoors ].

          LN



          --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Stridmann" <stridmann@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Dear Sirs and Ladies!
          > Let me introduce the second lesson of my course:
          > http://norse.ulver.com/onorse/les40/lesson2e.html
          > All suggestions are welcome!
          > Tim Stridmann
          >
        • Eysteinn Bjornsson
          ... Éta sounds a bit anachronistic - I would use eta (which is still used by a minority of Icelanders, actually). And, BTW, the sentence ek éta menn is
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 3, 2007
            --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Stridmann" <stridmann@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Dear Sirs and Ladies!
            > > Let me introduce the second lesson of my course:
            > > http://norse.ulver.com/onorse/les40/lesson2e.html
            > > All suggestions are welcome!
            > > Tim Stridmann



            > An older form of 'éta' is 'eta'. But I'm not sure when the vowel was
            > lengthened, or whether there's any anachronism in using 'éta'
            > alongside other old forms.

            "Éta" sounds a bit anachronistic - I would use "eta" (which is still
            used by a minority of Icelanders, actually). And, BTW, the sentence
            "ek éta menn" is wrong - the 1 sing is "et/ét".

            > 'Vér eigum þrjú börn.' Wouldn't the dual 'vit' be used here rather
            > than 'vér'?

            Absolutely.

            > 'Hrafn er heimskri mér.' Should this be 'heimskari'?

            In my opinion, yes.

            > 'elska at...' Is it possible that this is a modernism? I'm not sure
            > about that, but I couldn't find any Old Icelandic examples in
            > Cleasby/Vigfússon or Fritzner, or in the Órðabók Háskólans database.

            This is very recent usage, totally anachronistic. It was not in
            general
            use in my part of the country when I was a child. It is the influence
            of
            English on the younger modern generations, who have taken the
            semantics
            of the English "love" and superimposed them upon "elska" (the meaning
            of
            which is much narrower).

            ADDITIONAL NOTES:

            Trollshjón and trollsbörn both sound rather awkward. Trollhjón and
            trollabörn would sound more normal.

            Hjón does not mean "family".

            "Mér líka úlfar" would be better than "mér líkar við úlfa". Having
            said
            that, though, I think this usage of "líka" to equal the English "like"
            is rather recent. In OI the meaning was closer to "please". (But you
            could claim that these two meanings are the same.) I have never seen
            or
            heard "líka" used with "til".

            "Ellri Hrafns" is impossible, as far as I'm concerned. It would have
            to be "ellri Hrafni", or simply "ellri en Hrafn".

            "Feðgin", at least in prose, more normally means "father and
            daughter",
            not "parents".

            "Fífla" (fem!) is non-existent. "Fífl" is a neuter, and is used of
            both genders.

            The plural of troll/tröll is troll/tröll. There is no such word as
            "trollar".

            Regards,
            Eysteinn
          • Stridmann
            ... I ve found such exaples: ...elskaði hún hann mjög... (EYRBYGGJA SAGA) ...Signý elskaði hann... (HRANA SAGA HRINGS) Haraldur konungur elskaði
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 3, 2007
              > > 'elska at...' Is it possible that this is a modernism?
              > This is very recent usage, totally anachronistic.

              I've found such exaples:

              "...elskaði hún hann mjög..." (EYRBYGGJA SAGA)
              "...Signý elskaði hann..." (HRANA SAGA HRINGS)
              "Haraldur konungur elskaði mjög Íslendinga." (SNEGLU-HALLA ÞÁTTUR)

              > Hjón does not mean "family".

              I know. This means "married couple, husband and wife", nut i wanted
              the simple word for translation.

              > "Feðgin", at least in prose, more normally means "father and
              > daughter", not "parents".
              > "Fífla" (fem!) is non-existent. "Fífl" is a neuter, and is used of
              > both genders.

              In both cases, see A Concise Dictionary of Old Icelandic, by Geir T.
              Zoëga.

              THANK YOU ALL A LOT!
              I'll make the updates soon!

              Tim
            • llama_nom
              ... Hi Tim, Sorry, I didn t really explain clearly enough what I meant. The difference is that in each of these examples, the complement/object of the verb is
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 3, 2007
                --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Stridmann" <stridmann@...> wrote:
                >
                > > > 'elska at...' Is it possible that this is a modernism?
                > > This is very recent usage, totally anachronistic.
                >
                > I've found such exaples:
                >
                > "...elskaði hún hann mjög..." (EYRBYGGJA SAGA)
                > "...Signý elskaði hann..." (HRANA SAGA HRINGS)
                > "Haraldur konungur elskaði mjög Íslendinga." (SNEGLU-HALLA ÞÁTTUR)

                Hi Tim,

                Sorry, I didn't really explain clearly enough what I meant. The
                difference is that in each of these examples, the complement/object of
                the verb is a noun. This is perfectly normal in Old Icelandic; most,
                though not all, of the examples I saw had an animate noun as the
                complement, as in these three examples. The anachronism is the use of
                'elska' with a clausal complement such as 'at ganga náttliga' to
                describe an action which the subject of the verb 'elska' "likes/loves
                to do".

                LN
              • llama_nom
                We had a discussion here recently about the complications of saying I like in Icelandic [ http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/message/7913 ]. I
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 4, 2007
                  We had a discussion here recently about the complications of saying "I
                  like" in Icelandic [
                  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/message/7913 ].

                  I wonder if this sentence could be amended to:

                  Mér þykkir gaman at ganga á nóttum.

                  Compare Ögmundar þáttr dytts: mér þykkir gaman at hafa hálflit klæði
                  "I like to wear / enjoy wearing clothes of two colours."



                  --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Stridmann" <stridmann@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > > 'elska at...' Is it possible that this is a modernism?
                  > > > This is very recent usage, totally anachronistic.
                  > >
                  > > I've found such exaples:
                  > >
                  > > "...elskaði hún hann mjög..." (EYRBYGGJA SAGA)
                  > > "...Signý elskaði hann..." (HRANA SAGA HRINGS)
                  > > "Haraldur konungur elskaði mjög Íslendinga." (SNEGLU-HALLA ÞÁTTUR)
                  >
                  > Hi Tim,
                  >
                  > Sorry, I didn't really explain clearly enough what I meant. The
                  > difference is that in each of these examples, the complement/object of
                  > the verb is a noun. This is perfectly normal in Old Icelandic; most,
                  > though not all, of the examples I saw had an animate noun as the
                  > complement, as in these three examples. The anachronism is the use of
                  > 'elska' with a clausal complement such as 'at ganga náttliga' to
                  > describe an action which the subject of the verb 'elska' "likes/loves
                  > to do".
                  >
                  > LN
                  >
                • Eysteinn Bjornsson
                  ... Or: um nætr . Or: Nætrferðir eru mér til skaps (or: at skapi). Or: Nætrgöngur falla mér vel. Or: Gótt er um nætr at ganga. Etc. etc. Rgds, E.
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 4, 2007
                    --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:

                    > Mér þykkir gaman at ganga á nóttum.

                    Or: "um nætr".

                    Or: Nætrferðir eru mér til skaps (or: at skapi).
                    Or: Nætrgöngur falla mér vel.
                    Or: Gótt er um nætr at ganga.

                    Etc. etc.

                    Rgds,
                    E.
                  • Eysteinn Bjornsson
                    ... These are not examples of the same usage. I seriously doubt anybody would have said ég elska að ganga in medieval Iceland. Even today it sounds like a
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 4, 2007
                      --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Stridmann" <stridmann@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > > > 'elska at...' Is it possible that this is a modernism?
                      > > This is very recent usage, totally anachronistic.
                      >
                      > I've found such exaples:
                      >
                      > "...elskaði hún hann mjög..." (EYRBYGGJA SAGA)
                      > "...Signý elskaði hann..." (HRANA SAGA HRINGS)
                      > "Haraldur konungur elskaði mjög Íslendinga." (SNEGLU-HALLA ÞÁTTUR)

                      These are not examples of the same usage. I seriously
                      doubt anybody would have said "ég elska að ganga" in
                      medieval Iceland. Even today it sounds like a forced
                      translation from the English. "Elska" did not have the
                      wide range of meanings "love" has. It was not used of
                      casual "likes". The meaning is closer to "love dearly"
                      and you generally only "elska" people, loved ones and
                      friends, and gods, I guess. I doubt there are many
                      examples of people who "elska" things, and actions.
                      But if you can find it somewhere, by all means use it.
                      I would be very interested to hear if you can locate
                      and ON or OI example of "elska" with an infinitive. That
                      would certainly be one for the books.

                      As for "fífla" (n), yes, it exists, but is apparently
                      very rare in usage (and perhaps not an ideal word to
                      use in a primer for beginners). Actually, Zoega says
                      it means "wanton girl"! It does not occur in any saga,
                      according to the concordance, but is only found (twice)
                      in the compound "meðalfífla" (in Grett. and Gísl.).
                      Normally, a woman would just be called a "fífl", as in
                      Kormáks saga, Chapter 9:

                      "... því að þessi kona er fífl og engum duganda manni
                      við sæmanda ..."

                      I may not be a very good idea to teach absolute
                      beginners to use extremely rare and odd words as if
                      they were in general usage. But you're the boss!

                      Regards and good luck,
                      Eysteinn
                    • akoddsson
                      Heill Llama! ... saying I like in Icelandic [ http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/message/7913 ]. I missed this. An interesting sidenote here
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 5, 2007
                        Heill Llama!

                        --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > We had a discussion here recently about the complications of
                        saying "I like" in Icelandic [
                        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/message/7913 ].

                        I missed this. An interesting sidenote here about the verb 'langa':

                        'The verb langa has a personal construction: til slícs fagnaþar
                        scylde hveR maþr langa 27r20 (Hómilíubók), 31v13, etc.' (Van Weenen,
                        Icelandic Homily Book). I'm not sure if there are any parallel
                        obsolete usages of 'líka', but **mér líkar hangikjöt won't work in
                        Modern Icelandic. I can't explain why this is so - for some reason it
                        breaks with inherited usage-tradition. Interestingly, the verb
                        mirrors Modern English usage in the mainland Scandinavian languages
                        (for example, eg likar hangekjot, Modern Norwegian). It could just be
                        English influence, but I'm not sure. In my opinion, the contructions
                        'mér líkar vel/illa við hangikjöt/eitthvað/einhvern'
                        (something/someone) are very good, classic modern usage, whatever the
                        history. But if I ever run across archaic or obsolete usages
                        of 'líka', I'll rememeber to post them here for discussion ;)

                        Regards,
                        Konrad

                        > I wonder if this sentence could be amended to:
                        >
                        > Mér þykkir gaman at ganga á nóttum.
                        >
                        > Compare Ögmundar þáttr dytts: mér þykkir gaman at hafa hálflit klæði
                        > "I like to wear / enjoy wearing clothes of two colours."
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Stridmann" <stridmann@>
                        wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > > > 'elska at...' Is it possible that this is a modernism?
                        > > > > This is very recent usage, totally anachronistic.
                        > > >
                        > > > I've found such exaples:
                        > > >
                        > > > "...elskaði hún hann mjög..." (EYRBYGGJA SAGA)
                        > > > "...Signý elskaði hann..." (HRANA SAGA HRINGS)
                        > > > "Haraldur konungur elskaði mjög Íslendinga." (SNEGLU-HALLA
                        ÞÁTTUR)
                        > >
                        > > Hi Tim,
                        > >
                        > > Sorry, I didn't really explain clearly enough what I meant. The
                        difference is that in each of these examples, the complement/object of
                        the verb is a noun. This is perfectly normal in Old Icelandic; most,
                        though not all, of the examples I saw had an animate noun as the
                        complement, as in these three examples. The anachronism is the use of
                        'elska' with a clausal complement such as 'at ganga náttliga' to
                        describe an action which the subject of the verb 'elska' "likes/loves
                        to do".
                        > >
                        > > LN
                        > >
                        >
                      • llama_nom
                        Vertu heill Konráð! ... Could this be anything to do with the fact that there is another verb dependent on skyldi in this sentence: ...skyldi hverr maðr
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 5, 2007
                          Vertu heill Konráð!

                          > an interesting sidenote here about the verb 'langa':
                          >
                          > 'The verb langa has a personal construction: til slícs fagnaþar
                          > scylde hveR maþr langa 27r20 (Hómilíubók), 31v13, etc.' (Van Weenen,
                          > Icelandic Homily Book).

                          Could this be anything to do with the fact that there is another verb
                          dependent on 'skyldi' in this sentence: '...skyldi hverr maðr langa ok
                          of þat önn ala...'? But searching on Google, I find Modern Icelandic
                          examples such as 'mig langar og ætla', so maybe that's not a factor.
                          Or could the example in Hómilíubók have been influenced by some Latin
                          usage? I don't know much about the history of it, so I don't know if
                          that's likely, but the religious subject matter makes me wonder. The
                          Old English verb 'langian' has a nominative subject when it means "to
                          lengthen", but has accusative when it means "to want, to long for"
                          just as in Icelandic.

                          Þórhallur Eyþórsson has some more examples of nominative in place of
                          the usual accusative in Old Icelandic in: 'Dative vs. Nomination:
                          Changes in quirky subjects in Icelandic'.

                          "...the investigation showed that the substitution of nominative for
                          oblique cases is attested already in Old Icelandic, affecting various
                          kinds of quirky subjects (or subject-like NPs), including Experiencers
                          (at least with dreyma `dream', gruna `suspect', langa `want', ugga
                          `fear' and undra `wonder'). Some examples of N[ominativbe] S[ickness]
                          from Old Icelandic texts are given in (7):"

                          (7) a.

                          Ein kona... dreymdi þann dróm.
                          one woman-nom dreamt-3.sg that dream
                          `One woman... dreamt that dream.' (Mar.: 1029)

                          b.

                          þóttist hann ok spurt hafa, at Orkneyíngar myndi
                          seemed he also learned have that Orkneymen-nom would-3.pl

                          lítt lánga til, at hann kæmi vestr þagat.
                          little want to that he came westward thither

                          `It also seemed to him that the men of the Orkneys would not be
                          eager for him to come here to the west.' (Fms. VII:28)

                          c.

                          þetta undra víkingar.
                          this wonder-3.pl vikings-nom
                          `The vikings wondered at this.' (Fas. II:530)
                          _____________________________________________

                          But apparently, there is only one example of a dative being used in
                          Old Icelandic with such a verb that would normally have an accusative
                          "logical subject" ('honum skortir' in Grágás) -- although I gather
                          this has become a common (non-standard / frowned-upon) variant in
                          Modern Icelandic. Regarding which, I found an curious comment here
                          about half-correct usages, with a mixture of accusative and dative,
                          such as * 'mig langar og honum líka' "I want and so does he" (!) [
                          http://www.ma.is/kenn/svp/pistlar/mars03.htm ] (líka = "also", not the
                          verb 'líka') -- due to people having being taught that 'mig langar' is
                          the correct form, but forgetting the rule.

                          LN


                          --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson" <konrad_oddsson@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Heill Llama!
                          >
                          > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > We had a discussion here recently about the complications of
                          > saying "I like" in Icelandic [
                          > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/message/7913 ].
                          >
                          > I missed this. An interesting sidenote here about the verb 'langa':
                          >
                          > 'The verb langa has a personal construction: til slícs fagnaþar
                          > scylde hveR maþr langa 27r20 (Hómilíubók), 31v13, etc.' (Van Weenen,
                          > Icelandic Homily Book). I'm not sure if there are any parallel
                          > obsolete usages of 'líka', but **mér líkar hangikjöt won't work in
                          > Modern Icelandic. I can't explain why this is so - for some reason it
                          > breaks with inherited usage-tradition. Interestingly, the verb
                          > mirrors Modern English usage in the mainland Scandinavian languages
                          > (for example, eg likar hangekjot, Modern Norwegian). It could just be
                          > English influence, but I'm not sure. In my opinion, the contructions
                          > 'mér líkar vel/illa við hangikjöt/eitthvað/einhvern'
                          > (something/someone) are very good, classic modern usage, whatever the
                          > history. But if I ever run across archaic or obsolete usages
                          > of 'líka', I'll rememeber to post them here for discussion ;)
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          > Konrad
                          >
                          > > I wonder if this sentence could be amended to:
                          > >
                          > > Mér þykkir gaman at ganga á nóttum.
                          > >
                          > > Compare Ögmundar þáttr dytts: mér þykkir gaman at hafa hálflit klæði
                          > > "I like to wear / enjoy wearing clothes of two colours."
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Stridmann" <stridmann@>
                          > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > > > 'elska at...' Is it possible that this is a modernism?
                          > > > > > This is very recent usage, totally anachronistic.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I've found such exaples:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "...elskaði hún hann mjög..." (EYRBYGGJA SAGA)
                          > > > > "...Signý elskaði hann..." (HRANA SAGA HRINGS)
                          > > > > "Haraldur konungur elskaði mjög Íslendinga." (SNEGLU-HALLA
                          > ÞÁTTUR)
                          > > >
                          > > > Hi Tim,
                          > > >
                          > > > Sorry, I didn't really explain clearly enough what I meant. The
                          > difference is that in each of these examples, the complement/object of
                          > the verb is a noun. This is perfectly normal in Old Icelandic; most,
                          > though not all, of the examples I saw had an animate noun as the
                          > complement, as in these three examples. The anachronism is the use of
                          > 'elska' with a clausal complement such as 'at ganga náttliga' to
                          > describe an action which the subject of the verb 'elska' "likes/loves
                          > to do".
                          > > >
                          > > > LN
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • llama_nom
                          How about, as another alternative, ek hefi skemtan af náttförum ? I see that Arnórr Þórðarsson uses the adjective allnáttförull often
                          Message 12 of 15 , Apr 6, 2007
                            How about, as another alternative, 'ek hefi skemtan af náttförum'? I
                            see that Arnórr Þórðarsson uses the adjective 'allnáttförull' "often
                            night-travelling, much given to traveling by night" in Magnúsdrápa [
                            http://www.hi.is/~eybjorn/ugm/kennings/magnus11.html ]. I wonder if
                            *náttgöngull would be understood in the same way (ek em mjök
                            náttförul; ek em allnáttförul; ek em mjök náttgöngul)?

                            LN


                            --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Eysteinn Bjornsson"
                            <eysteinn@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                            >
                            > > Mér þykkir gaman at ganga á nóttum.
                            >
                            > Or: "um nætr".
                            >
                            > Or: Nætrferðir eru mér til skaps (or: at skapi).
                            > Or: Nætrgöngur falla mér vel.
                            > Or: Gótt er um nætr at ganga.
                            >
                            > Etc. etc.
                            >
                            > Rgds,
                            > E.
                            >
                          • akoddsson
                            ... scylde hveR maþr langa 27r20 (Hómilíubók), 31v13, etc. (Van Weenen, Icelandic Homily Book). ... verb dependent on skyldi in this sentence:
                            Message 13 of 15 , Apr 6, 2007
                              --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Vertu heill Konráð!
                              >
                              > > an interesting sidenote here about the verb 'langa':
                              > >
                              > > 'The verb langa has a personal construction: til slícs fagnaþar
                              scylde hveR maþr langa 27r20 (Hómilíubók), 31v13, etc.' (Van Weenen,
                              Icelandic Homily Book).

                              > Could this be anything to do with the fact that there is another
                              verb dependent on 'skyldi' in this sentence: '...skyldi hverr maðr
                              langa ok of þat önn ala...'?

                              Perhaps Van Weenen is seeing a personal/impersonal distinction for
                              the verb which doesn't involve it taking other than an accusative
                              subject? You're certainly right about 'skyldi' here - maðr ends up
                              nominitive here regardless of 'langa'. The author doesn't elaborate
                              any further, so it's up to the reader to interpret it. 'of' for 'um'
                              (as in the sentence you quote above) seems to have been universal in
                              ON, where later we have 'um' instead; 'umb' was confined to the
                              sense 'around/about' (<*umbi). It would seem that the change was in
                              place by the 13th century, though. I point it out because it's a
                              detail that often seems to go more or less unnoticed.

                              > But searching on Google, I find Modern Icelandic examples such
                              as 'mig langar og ætla', so maybe that's not a factor. Or could the
                              example in Hómilíubók have been influenced by some Latin
                              usage?

                              I'm not sure. There seems to be a school of thought that the homily
                              books to some degree represent foreign syntax, but I'd be hard
                              pressed to cite examples myself ;) The foreign influence I see most
                              clearly is in the vocabulary (loanwords and new, stretched usages of
                              ON words, new formations/compounds, etc.). To name a few examples off
                              the top of my mind - miskunn, náð, kærleikr, öfund, synd etc. etc.
                              (words that aquire new connotations with Christianity; himinríki
                              (later himnaríki), helvíti, guðspiall (and guðspallaskald), etc. etc.
                              (new compounds), and guð (new word, previously only goð, which is
                              always neuter), and translations and/or adaptations of foreign
                              concepts/characters: djöfull, engill, andskoti (previously only in
                              the meaning 'opponent' - the one who shoots against), etc. etc.. The
                              list is very long indeed, but I think it's highly doubtful that this
                              had much, if anything, to say about syntax or phonology. I'll grant
                              that it's a tricky, complex topic, and that opinions differ. Still,
                              the older stage of the language represented gives us invaluable
                              insight into the finer details of ON during the earliest Catholic
                              period - the small differences in phonology, declension, etc. from
                              the 13th century standard we use today. Together with the runic
                              inscriptions, evidence from scaldic poetry, etc., it gives us the
                              tools we need to get the language of the last heathen period right,
                              at least on paper. That's invaluable for folk who are primarily
                              interested in the native Norse culture, because it gives us a more
                              accurate picture of their language.

                              > I don't know much about the history of it, so I don't know if
                              that's likely, but the religious subject matter makes me wonder.

                              ;) I've read these books many times and I'm still wondering.

                              > The Old English verb 'langian' has a nominative subject when it
                              means "to lengthen", but has accusative when it means "to want, to
                              long for" just as in Icelandic.

                              'to lengthen' is 'lengja' in ON/Icelandic and takes a nominitive
                              subject, so no problems here. As OE and ON agree on accusative
                              for 'to long', my guess is that it's inherited.

                              > Þórhallur Eyþórsson has some more examples of nominative in place of
                              the usual accusative in Old Icelandic in: 'Dative vs. Nomination:
                              Changes in quirky subjects in Icelandic'.

                              > "...the investigation showed that the substitution of nominative for
                              oblique cases is attested already in Old Icelandic, affecting various
                              kinds of quirky subjects (or subject-like NPs), including Experiencers
                              (at least with dreyma `dream', gruna `suspect', langa `want', ugga
                              `fear' and undra `wonder'). Some examples of N[ominativbe] S[ickness]
                              from Old Icelandic texts are given in (7):"

                              > (7) a.
                              >
                              > Ein kona... dreymdi þann dróm.
                              > one woman-nom dreamt-3.sg that dream
                              > `One woman... dreamt that dream.' (Mar.: 1029)
                              >
                              > b.
                              >
                              > þóttist hann ok spurt hafa, at Orkneyíngar myndi
                              > seemed he also learned have that Orkneymen-nom would-3.pl
                              >
                              > lítt lánga til, at hann kæmi vestr þagat.
                              > little want to that he came westward thither
                              >
                              > `It also seemed to him that the men of the Orkneys would not be
                              > eager for him to come here to the west.' (Fms. VII:28)
                              >
                              > c.
                              >
                              > þetta undra víkingar.
                              > this wonder-3.pl vikings-nom
                              > `The vikings wondered at this.' (Fas. II:530)
                              > _____________________________________________

                              Interesting, indeed.

                              > But apparently, there is only one example of a dative being used in
                              Old Icelandic with such a verb that would normally have an accusative
                              "logical subject" ('honum skortir' in Grágás) -- although I gather
                              this has become a common (non-standard / frowned-upon) variant in
                              Modern Icelandic. Regarding which, I found an curious comment here
                              about half-correct usages, with a mixture of accusative and dative,
                              such as * 'mig langar og honum líka' "I want and so does he" (!) [
                              http://www.ma.is/kenn/svp/pistlar/mars03.htm ] (líka = "also", not the
                              verb 'líka') -- due to people having being taught that 'mig langar' is
                              the correct form, but forgetting the rule.

                              ;) Well, there are clearly a lot of mistakes being made, bad usage,
                              etc.. It seems typical enough of any language. Studying Hindi and
                              Bengali (which have a lot of speakers, dialects, variation, etc.) has
                              made me much more relaxed about sentences like **mig langar og honum
                              líka. Written and spoken language differ. As long as the speaker of
                              the above sentence can write correctly without guidance, I wouldn't
                              worry too much about mistakes in casual conversation. It's natural to
                              make mistakes, after all. As Þórhallur's examples show, it's even pre-
                              modern to make mistakes ;) There's a good argument to be made that a
                              standard, written language is perhaps the most important stabilizing
                              factor. When speakers of two dialects meet, they move towards the
                              standard. When we learn a new language, we learn the standard. When
                              everyone must refer to the standard, it tends to keep things like
                              'mig langar' in place without severely punishing the violators ;) So,
                              letting the conservatives guard and teach the standard is probably
                              not a bad idea. Viva Oxford Dictionary of the English Language and
                              company ;)

                              Konrad


                              > LN
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson" <konrad_oddsson@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Heill Llama!
                              > >
                              > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > We had a discussion here recently about the complications of
                              > > saying "I like" in Icelandic [
                              > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/message/7913 ].
                              > >
                              > > I missed this. An interesting sidenote here about the
                              verb 'langa':
                              > >
                              > > 'The verb langa has a personal construction: til slícs fagnaþar
                              > > scylde hveR maþr langa 27r20 (Hómilíubók), 31v13, etc.' (Van
                              Weenen,
                              > > Icelandic Homily Book). I'm not sure if there are any parallel
                              > > obsolete usages of 'líka', but **mér líkar hangikjöt won't work
                              in
                              > > Modern Icelandic. I can't explain why this is so - for some
                              reason it
                              > > breaks with inherited usage-tradition. Interestingly, the verb
                              > > mirrors Modern English usage in the mainland Scandinavian
                              languages
                              > > (for example, eg likar hangekjot, Modern Norwegian). It could
                              just be
                              > > English influence, but I'm not sure. In my opinion, the
                              contructions
                              > > 'mér líkar vel/illa við hangikjöt/eitthvað/einhvern'
                              > > (something/someone) are very good, classic modern usage, whatever
                              the
                              > > history. But if I ever run across archaic or obsolete usages
                              > > of 'líka', I'll rememeber to post them here for discussion ;)
                              > >
                              > > Regards,
                              > > Konrad
                              > >
                              > > > I wonder if this sentence could be amended to:
                              > > >
                              > > > Mér þykkir gaman at ganga á nóttum.
                              > > >
                              > > > Compare Ögmundar þáttr dytts: mér þykkir gaman at hafa hálflit
                              klæði
                              > > > "I like to wear / enjoy wearing clothes of two colours."
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@>
                              wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Stridmann" <stridmann@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > 'elska at...' Is it possible that this is a modernism?
                              > > > > > > This is very recent usage, totally anachronistic.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I've found such exaples:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > "...elskaði hún hann mjög..." (EYRBYGGJA SAGA)
                              > > > > > "...Signý elskaði hann..." (HRANA SAGA HRINGS)
                              > > > > > "Haraldur konungur elskaði mjög Íslendinga." (SNEGLU-HALLA
                              > > ÞÁTTUR)
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Hi Tim,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Sorry, I didn't really explain clearly enough what I meant.
                              The
                              > > difference is that in each of these examples, the
                              complement/object of
                              > > the verb is a noun. This is perfectly normal in Old Icelandic;
                              most,
                              > > though not all, of the examples I saw had an animate noun as the
                              > > complement, as in these three examples. The anachronism is the
                              use of
                              > > 'elska' with a clausal complement such as 'at ganga náttliga' to
                              > > describe an action which the subject of the
                              verb 'elska' "likes/loves
                              > > to do".
                              > > > >
                              > > > > LN
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Eysteinn Bjornsson
                              ... Sounds good, - the only problem being the ambiguity. Náttförum can also be dat pl of náttfari (nightwalker), so the sentence could mean I am amused
                              Message 14 of 15 , Apr 6, 2007
                                >> How about, as another alternative, 'ek hefi skemtan af náttförum'?

                                Sounds good, - the only problem being the ambiguity. 'Náttförum'
                                can also be dat pl of "náttfari" (nightwalker), so the sentence
                                could mean "I am amused by nightwalkers".

                                >> I wonder if *náttgöngull would be understood in the same way

                                Hmmm - I can't think of an objection, but somehow it doesn't sound
                                as good as "náttförull". Possibly it brings to mind "svefngengill",
                                and veers towards "sleep-walking" in the reader's mind? Not sure.

                                Cheers,
                                E.
                              • Stridmann
                                I ve made some corrections in my course... http://norse.ulver.com/onorse/les40/indexe.html Though, the sound files are not corresponding with text examples
                                Message 15 of 15 , Apr 15, 2007
                                  I've made some corrections in my course...
                                  http://norse.ulver.com/onorse/les40/indexe.html
                                  Though, the sound files are not corresponding with text examples
                                  now. :)))
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