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Re: [norse_course] Re: insults & duels

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  • mike garcia
    Heill llama, Thanks for this! I am curious, do you know the date of this law? It is showing a Tradition on the insult stick (which I have found rare accounts
    Message 1 of 37 , Oct 5, 2006
      Heill llama,

      Thanks for this! I am curious, do you know the date of this law? It is
      showing a Tradition on the insult stick (which I have found rare accounts
      of this being mentioned anywhere)?

      Heill ok vel,


      --- llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:

      > Thanks's for that Mike. Here is the He<thorn>nalagh section of the West
      > Gautish laws, which talks about duels in response to insults.
      > http://hem2.passagen.se/peter9/lag/vghedn.html
      > Givr ma<thorn>r oquæ<thorn>ins or<eth> manni · <thorn>u ær æi mans maki
      oc eig ma<thorn>r i brysti
      > · Ek ær ma<thorn>r sum <thorn>v · <thorn>eir skvlv møtaz a <thorn>riggia
      vægha motum · Cumbr
      > <thorn>an or<eth> havr giuit oc <thorn>an cumbr eig <thorn>er or<eth>
      havr lutit · <thorn>a mvn han
      > vara svm han heitir · ær eig ei<eth>gangr oc eig vitnisbær huarti firi
      > ælla kvnv · Cumbr oc <thorn>an or<eth> havr lutit oc eig <thorn>an
      or<eth> havr giuit · <thorn>a
      > opar han <thorn>ry ni<thorn>ingx op oc markar han a iar<thorn>v ·
      <thorn>a se han ma<thorn>r <thorn>æss
      > værri <thorn>et tala<thorn>i han eig halla <thorn>or<thorn>i · Nv møtaz
      <thorn>eir ba<thorn>ir mz fullum
      > vapnvm · Faldr <thorn>an or<eth> havr lutit · gildr mz haluum gialdum ·
      > <thorn>an or<eth> havr giuit · Gløpr or<eth>a værstr · Tunga
      houu<eth>bani · Liggi i
      > vgildum acri ·
      > If a man gives insulting words to a man -- you are not equal to a man
      > and not a man in your breast, (and the accused says) I'm (as much) a
      > man as you -- then they must meet at a meeting of three ways. If the
      > man comes who has given the words, and the man who received them does
      > not come, then he will be what he is called. He is not able to give
      > legal oaths or to act as a legal witness, neither for a man nor a
      > woman. If he who received the words comes, but not the one who gave
      > them, then he (the one who came) shall give a nithing's shout and make
      > a mark on the earth. Then let him (the one who didn't come) be (so
      > much) the worse a man who said what he did not dare to stick to. Now
      > if they both meet with a full set if weapons, and the one who received
      > the words falls, let him be paid for with a half wergild, but if the
      > one who uttered the words falls -- "the crime of words (is) worst; the
      > tongue is the death of the head" -- let him lie in the unatoned field
      > (i.e. let him lie with no compensation paid to his kin).
      > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, mike garcia <exavierstud@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Heill llama,
      > >
      > > Here is a interesting article when the insults was given on how our
      > kinred
      > > in the past would of handled an insult or some dispute:
      > >
      > > http://www.stavacademy.co.uk/mimir/holmgang.htm
      > >
      > > Heill ok vel,
      > >
      > > Mike
      > >
      > > --- llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > > > Another article on insults:
      > > >
      > > > http://ragnarokr.com/Scholarship/nidsenna.html

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    • akoddsson
      Sæll Llama! ... sign for cutting or carving (Faulkes) could be revelant here? It s said to be tindótt með þrim hornum spiky/pointy with three corners
      Message 37 of 37 , Oct 9, 2006
        Sæll Llama!

        > Do you think the mention in Skáldskaparmál of a 'ristubragð' "a
        sign for cutting or carving" (Faulkes) could be revelant here? It's
        said to be 'tindótt með þrim hornum' "spiky/pointy with three
        corners" (presumably 'hornum' = "corners" here, if it's the stone
        heart of the giant, although the same word also means "horn"). Is
        the term 'valknútr' a modern invention?

        I suspect so. ristubragð is, I think, relevant, as the ancient Norse
        would have cut (rísta) symbols in objects, as memorial stones, wood,
        etc. There would be, of course, many different ristubrögð. Question
        is, what where they called?

        > > I have done some research on Modern Icelandic pronunciation and
        its relationship to the mainland, which I will mention something
        about in a separate post.

        > I look forward to reading that!

        Well, here you get some of it. I'm not really any good at this kind
        of research, and frankly, it's far from my specialty, but I have
        been looking into the roots of MIce pronunciation after meeting a
        man from Årdal, Sogn (West Norway): Here is a link which I found to
        vikjamaal, a sub-dialect in Sogn (I couldn't find one on the whole
        region, but it is representative):


        This story is funny, so I'll relate it. Now, I work in Trondheim
        (Þrándheimr), where the inhabitant speak Trønsk/Trøndersk, an east
        norse dialect, but differing radically from Danish, that has many
        sub-dialects. As is well known, Danish has been Norway's official
        language for hundreds of years (Dano-Norwegian, called Bokmål),
        except that an alternative Landsmål exists, which is a written
        language based on the most conservative features of all Norwegian
        dialects surviving until the time of independence from Denmark. In
        practice, Norway has more dialects than the rest of Scandinavia
        combined, and the differences are far greater, which, ironically,
        means that Norwegians, although no more interested in language than
        others, test second only to Faroe-Islanders in Scandinavian tests on
        language-understanding. Tests (and experience) keep showing the
        Swedes and Danes have a hard time understanding each other (or do
        not wish to), while both understand Norwegians (and Norwegians them,
        in general). Norwegians, like Faroe-Islanders, are a minority over
        against Swedes and Danes, which probably also helps to make them
        more open about learning these languages. In fact, Danes and Swedes
        in Þrándheimr just speak Danish or Swedish (no problem at all). Now,
        as the story goes, I heard a man talking to a friend at a cafe after
        work. His pronunciation was so Icelandic, and his dialect utterly
        different from the native one, that he must have been an Icelander
        living in some other part of Norway (there are many Icelanders in
        Norway, so this is typical enough). After his friend left, I spoke
        to him in Icelandic, and he understood me perfectly well. I have an
        Icelandic employer (one of 3 employers), who looks identical to this
        man, but whom is much older and has a grown son in Norway (but whom
        I have never met). So, I asked him if he was this man's son, trying
        to establish a personal connection, and he said 'no, never heard of
        him before'. Hmmm, thought I, as he looked identical...what to say
        next...'uh, what are you doing in Norway? (relatives, girlfriend,
        work, school, etc. - this time in Norwegian), I asked. No answer,
        but a cold look. Then he said something like 'I'm not Icelandic,
        sorry, I've heard it a thousand times, tired of it, frankly. I'm
        more Norwegian than you Trønder-folk and proud of it. Goodbye.' He
        just walked off. 'What the hell', I thought, 'a rude creep'. Now, to
        make a long story short, I later met other folk talking like him,
        who were, thankfully, more friendly than he. I found out that these
        folk are from Sogn, a fylki (province) in western Norway that I have
        not been to (soon to change). The Sygnir (and a few near neighbors)
        were the last folk in Norway to speak Norse, doing so centuries
        after other Norwegians had abandoned the old language for Modern
        Danish. And they paid the price: poverty, unemployement, extreme
        forms of social prejudice, open ridicule. In the end, they were
        forced, like everyone else, to adopt some form of Dano-Norwegian,
        but the bitterness lingers. Now, in recent years, there has been a
        modern resurgence in dialect-pride in Norway, a kind of 'fuck you'
        to years of social prejudice and shit-throwing against non-speakers
        of the 'fine' Dano-Norwegian dialect of the upper-class. So, dialect
        is a point of pride. The problem for the folk from Sogn (and also
        some neighboring areas, like Hardanger, parts of Hordaland, etc.) is
        that instead of being recognized for their unique dialect, they get
        asked if they are Icelanders. In fact, all of the folk that I have
        met from this area confirm this. Both Icelanders and Norwegians make
        this mistake consistently, as does anyone else conversant with the
        basics of MIce. pronunciation. It sounds crazy, but its true (if a
        person on this list is from this region, please speak up on this).
        Of course, not all of them are as rude (or just tired of it) as the
        man who just walked away from me. One of the ones that I have talked
        to is, in fact, proud of the fact that his dialect is pronounced so
        like Icelandic that everyone notices it. He figured that Icelandic
        was a better language anyway and was fond of the association. After
        all, Icelandic is far better than the Dano-Norwegian monstrocity, as
        he put it, and noted that folk in his area were more related to the
        Icelanders than other Norwegians. Well, they do look identical, I
        have to add. Something about this facinates me. These folk descend
        from the last resistance against the Dano-Norwegian language/culture
        in Norway, and they are remarkably Icelandic in character, looks and
        language. If someone is offended by these comments, don't be, as it
        is really a compliment. By saying that they are very Icelandic, I do
        not mean to take anything away from their uniqueness/originality. So
        have a look at the language link above, note pronunciation and see
        my next post, where I'll make some comments that some readers might
        be shocked by.

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