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RE: [norse_course] Auðun - section 13

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  • AThompson
    Sæl Patricia ... This is the result of a conflict between people using the ISO-8859-1 (a.k.a. latin-1) character set and those using Unicode (utf-1). You,
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 7, 2005
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      Sæl Patricia

       

      re scripts: The reason is, I think, is the same as Haukur mention for a related issue:

       

       > This is the way the part of the last digest came thru:

      >

      > Auðun ventures off once again. etc.

       

      This is the result of a conflict between people using

      the ISO-8859-1 (a.k.a. latin-1) character set and those

      using Unicode (utf-1). You, like me, are probably using

      the former and are having trouble understanding people

      using the latter. Maybe there's some way to set the

      program you use to read your email to Unicode.

       

      The Yahoo pages must use  ISO-8859-1.

       

      Re: translation, my effort was hardly well-informed. I’m not sure that TV had reached Iceland by the ‘Old Norse’ era (they didn’t reach Australia until 1956), so I have used a modern word for TV.

       

      Kveðja

      Alan

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Patricia [mailto:originalpatricia@...]
      Sent:
      Tuesday, 8 March 2005 5:25 AM
      To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [norse_course] Auðun - section 13

       

      Thank you Alan that was kind to go to so much trouble for me, actually the translation from English into Old norse I seem to have gotten sadly wrong, your notes on part 13 will be saved along of all my part 13 notes.

      How are you with the scripts that PC's use, when I viewed on Yahoo Your comments, they were smotherd in little circles and squares and unreadable, right, so when  they got to Outlook express I could read it well, I do not understand this. how a message can change from the letters being so different, where do the tiny circles and squares issue from - Any body know???

      Blessings

      Patricia

      ----- Original Message -----

      From: AThompson

      Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 8:21 AM

      Subject: RE: [norse_course] Auðun - section 13

       

      Sæl Patricia

       

      I’m not sure if you were seeking my comments on ON TV or Auðun, so I’ll give you my non-expert suggestions for bothJ

       

      Kveðja

      Alan

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Patricia [mailto:originalpatricia@...]
      Sent:
      Saturday, 5 March 2005 11:14 AM
      To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [norse_course] Auðun - section 13

       

      Hann kømr aptr í Danmörk at páskum,

      He comes after [back] in Denmark  at Easter

      He arrived then in Denmark at Easter  (it is Pasqua in Italian)

       

       þangat sem konungr er þá staddr. 

      Thither as [where] [the] King is there [then] present

      where the King was staying

       

       En eigi þorði hann at láta sjá sik;

      But not dare [dared] he at place be seen [to let (infin vb) (anyone) see him]

      But he did not dare show his face

       

       ok var í kirkjuskoti ok ætlaði þá til fundar við konung,

      and was in a wing of church and thought [intended] there [then] to meet [a meeting (noun)] with the King

      and waited in a wing of the Church hoping to meet the King

       

       er hann gengi til kirkju um kveldit. 

      was [when] he walking [walks (subj.)] to Church about [in] [the] Evening [def article attached]

      and he walked to the Church in the evening    (the King walked)   (as did everyone else)

       

      Ok nú er hann sá konunginn ok hirðina fagrliga búna,

      and now that [when] he sees [saw] the King and his [the] Retainers [acc sg with def article attached] (his Company) beautifully clad

      And now that (again?) he saw the King and his retainers so well dressed

       

       þá þorði hann eigi at láta sjá sik. 

      There [then] dares [dared] he not at place be seen [to let (infin vb) (them!) see him]

      he dare not show his face.

       

      Ok er konungr gekk til drykkju í höllina,

      And is [when] the King (went? [correct]) to drinking in the Hall

      And when the King went to the Feast in the Hall

       

      þá mataðisk Auðun úti, sem siðr er til Rúmferla

      Then was fed [ate his meal (???)] Auðun outside as custom [is] to Pilgrims

      Then Auðun ate outside, as it was the custom for the Pilgrims

       

      meðan þeir hafa eigi kastat staf ok skreppu.

      while they have not cast off staff and Scrip

      While they still carry the staff and Scrip (a small sack carried by a Pilgrim)

       

      Auðun was showing the customary humility of a Pilgrim since joining their Ranks, and he is ashamed of his appearance, but I'm sure the King will have pity, and probably give him employment

       

      I wanted to translate "while I write the Television shows "The World is not Enough" and made it to be

      hrið ek skrift Farri-Sja syna "Verøld eigi ærit" unless œrit is correct

       

               á meðan ég skrifa sjónvarpshandritin ‘Heimurinn er eigi nógur’ ???

       

      Please Sarah let Alan have this one, because he was so helpful with Part 12, and I would value his contribution, my studies are such an enjoyment to me

      Fern-Sehr is German for TV (spelling? )

       and Farri-Sja seems good

      ----- Original Message -----

      Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 9:39 PM

      Subject: [norse_course] Auðun - section 13

       

      Auðun arrives back at Sveinn´s court, rather the worse for wear.

       

      Hann kømr aptr í Danmörk at páskum, þangat sem konungr er þá staddr.  En eigi þorði hann at láta sjá sik; ok var í kirkjuskoti ok ætlaði þá til fundar við konung, er hann gengi til kirkju um kveldit.  Ok nú er hann sá konunginn ok hirðina fagrliga búna, þá þorði hann eigi at láta sjá sik.  Ok er konungr gekk til drykkju í höllina, þá mataðisk Auðun úti, sem siðr er til Rúmferla, meðan þeir hafa eigi kastat staf ok skreppu.


       




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    • Patricia
      Sael Alan In understanding the system, I do not try to comprehend it all, I simply have to use Outlook Express when I work with Norse Course, and leave Yahoo
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 8, 2005
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        Sael Alan
        In understanding the system, I do not try to comprehend it all, I simply have to use Outlook Express when I work with Norse Course, and leave Yahoo to sending funny stuff and Greetings cards.
        When I want to type Auðun's name I do { A u (Alt+0240) u n , } now is that Unicode, because  I have a "Character Map" on the PC that works beautifully (but the laptop wont do that) and it gives all sorts of Alphabets, but not Runes, on my PC
        Kveðja
        Patricia
        Only trouble I ever have is with Yahoo, Oitlook Express is the best for my Studies
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: AThompson
        Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 6:22 AM
        Subject: RE: [norse_course] Auðun - section 13

        Sæl Patricia

         

        re scripts: The reason is, I think, is the same as Haukur mention for a related issue:

         

         > This is the way the part of the last digest came thru:

        >

        > Auðun ventures off once again. etc.

         

        This is the result of a conflict between people using

        the ISO-8859-1 (a.k.a. latin-1) character set and those

        using Unicode (utf-1). You, like me, are probably using

        the former and are having trouble understanding people

        using the latter. Maybe there's some way to set the

        program you use to read your email to Unicode.

         

        The Yahoo pages must use  ISO-8859-1.

         

        Re: translation, my effort was hardly well-informed. I’m not sure that TV had reached Iceland by the ‘Old Norse’ era (they didn’t reach Australia until 1956), so I have used a modern word for TV.

         

        Kveðja

        Alan

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Patricia [mailto:originalpatricia@...]
        Sent:
        Tuesday, 8 March 2005 5:25 AM
        To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [norse_course] Auðun - section 13

         

        Thank you Alan that was kind to go to so much trouble for me, actually the translation from English into Old norse I seem to have gotten sadly wrong, your notes on part 13 will be saved along of all my part 13 notes.

        How are you with the scripts that PC's use, when I viewed on Yahoo Your comments, they were smotherd in little circles and squares and unreadable, right, so when  they got to Outlook express I could read it well, I do not understand this. how a message can change from the letters being so different, where do the tiny circles and squares issue from - Any body know???

        Blessings

        Patricia

        ----- Original Message -----

        From: AThompson

        Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 8:21 AM

        Subject: RE: [norse_course] Auðun - section 13

         

        Sæl Patricia

         

        I’m not sure if you were seeking my comments on ON TV or Auðun, so I’ll give you my non-expert suggestions for bothJ

         

        Kveðja

        Alan

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Patricia [mailto:originalpatricia@...]
        Sent:
        Saturday, 5 March 2005 11:14 AM
        To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [norse_course] Auðun - section 13

         

        Hann kømr aptr í Danmörk at páskum,

        He comes after [back] in Denmark  at Easter

        He arrived then in Denmark at Easter  (it is Pasqua in Italian)

         

         þangat sem konungr er þá staddr. 

        Thither as [where] [the] King is there [then] present

        where the King was staying

         

         En eigi þorði hann at láta sjá sik;

        But not dare [dared] he at place be seen [to let (infin vb) (anyone) see him]

        But he did not dare show his face

         

         ok var í kirkjuskoti ok ætlaði þá til fundar við konung,

        and was in a wing of church and thought [intended] there [then] to meet [a meeting (noun)] with the King

        and waited in a wing of the Church hoping to meet the King

         

         er hann gengi til kirkju um kveldit. 

        was [when] he walking [walks (subj.)] to Church about [in] [the] Evening [def article attached]

        and he walked to the Church in the evening    (the King walked)   (as did everyone else)

         

        Ok nú er hann sá konunginn ok hirðina fagrliga búna,

        and now that [when] he sees [saw] the King and his [the] Retainers [acc sg with def article attached] (his Company) beautifully clad

        And now that (again?) he saw the King and his retainers so well dressed

         

         þá þorði hann eigi at láta sjá sik. 

        There [then] dares [dared] he not at place be seen [to let (infin vb) (them!) see him]

        he dare not show his face.

         

        Ok er konungr gekk til drykkju í höllina,

        And is [when] the King (went? [correct]) to drinking in the Hall

        And when the King went to the Feast in the Hall

         

        þá mataðisk Auðun úti, sem siðr er til Rúmferla

        Then was fed [ate his meal (???)] Auðun outside as custom [is] to Pilgrims

        Then Auðun ate outside, as it was the custom for the Pilgrims

         

        meðan þeir hafa eigi kastat staf ok skreppu.

        while they have not cast off staff and Scrip

        While they still carry the staff and Scrip (a small sack carried by a Pilgrim)

         

        Auðun was showing the customary humility of a Pilgrim since joining their Ranks, and he is ashamed of his appearance, but I'm sure the King will have pity, and probably give him employment

         

        I wanted to translate "while I write the Television shows "The World is not Enough" and made it to be

        hrið ek skrift Farri-Sja syna "Verøld eigi ærit" unless œrit is correct

         

                 á meðan ég skrifa sjónvarpshandritin ‘Heimurinn er eigi nógur’ ???

         

        Please Sarah let Alan have this one, because he was so helpful with Part 12, and I would value his contribution, my studies are such an enjoyment to me

        Fern-Sehr is German for TV (spelling? )

         and Farri-Sja seems good

        ----- Original Message -----

        Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 9:39 PM

        Subject: [norse_course] Auðun - section 13

         

        Auðun arrives back at Sveinn´s court, rather the worse for wear.

         

        Hann kømr aptr í Danmörk at páskum, þangat sem konungr er þá staddr.  En eigi þorði hann at láta sjá sik; ok var í kirkjuskoti ok ætlaði þá til fundar við konung, er hann gengi til kirkju um kveldit.  Ok nú er hann sá konunginn ok hirðina fagrliga búna, þá þorði hann eigi at láta sjá sik.  Ok er konungr gekk til drykkju í höllina, þá mataðisk Auðun úti, sem siðr er til Rúmferla, meðan þeir hafa eigi kastat staf ok skreppu.


         




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        Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/

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        A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.

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      • llama_nom
        Patricia, Here s a nice website about Modern Icelandic where I finally found a way of typing Norse characters that works even on my laptop.
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 8, 2005
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          Patricia,

          Here's a nice website about Modern Icelandic where I finally found a
          way of typing Norse characters that works even on my laptop.

          http://www.mentalcode.com/nl/islenska/index.page

          Click on the link "Typing foreign characters".

          Llama Nom



          --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
          <originalpatricia@y...> wrote:
          > Sael Alan
          > In understanding the system, I do not try to comprehend it all,
          I simply have to use Outlook Express when I work with Norse Course,
          and leave Yahoo to sending funny stuff and Greetings cards.
          > When I want to type Auðun's name I do { A u (Alt+0240) u n , }
          now is that Unicode, because I have a "Character Map" on the PC
          that works beautifully (but the laptop wont do that) and it gives
          all sorts of Alphabets, but not Runes, on my PC
          > Kveðja
          > Patricia
          > Only trouble I ever have is with Yahoo, Oitlook Express is the
          best for my Studies
        • Patricia
          Thanks so much Llama Nom, that looks good, but when I work with my PC on O/E I can read it, well right, but where you say Patricia wrote - and I Wrote,
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 8, 2005
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            Thanks so much Llama Nom, that looks good, but when I work with my PC on O/E I can read it, well right,  but where you say Patricia wrote - and I Wrote, Kveðja, how come that does not come out the same as I saw it when you repeat it because I'm thinking no, Patricia did not type that, please no , cancel that question, I think I'll just stay medium-confused, so long as O/E works for me and I can read it and study with my PC, never mind my lap-top it has too much attitude, I'll leave it there I think, any more input on strange Alphabets will result in a blown fuse (mine), but the site, excuse me I'm off to investigate it right now
            Bless
            Patricia
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: llama_nom
            Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:22 PM
            Subject: [norse_course] Icelandic Fonts



            Patricia,

            Here's a nice website about Modern Icelandic where I finally found a
            way of typing Norse characters that works even on my laptop.

            http://www.mentalcode.com/nl/islenska/index.page

            Click on the link "Typing foreign characters".

            Llama Nom



            --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
            <originalpatricia@y...> wrote:
            >   Sael Alan
            >   In understanding the system, I do not try to comprehend it all,
            I simply have to use Outlook Express when I work with Norse Course,
            and leave Yahoo to sending funny stuff and Greetings cards.
            >   When I want to type Auðun's name I do { A u (Alt+0240) u n , }
            now is that Unicode, because  I have a "Character Map" on the PC
            that works beautifully (but the laptop wont do that) and it gives
            all sorts of Alphabets, but not Runes, on my PC
            >   Kveðja
            >   Patricia
            >   Only trouble I ever have is with Yahoo, Oitlook Express is the
            best for my Studies






            A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.

            Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/

            To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:

            norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



          • llama_nom
            ... (mine) Blown fuse? I ll take that as a challenge: http://www.omniglot.com/ Strange alphabets heaven. As for confusion, I think the day the confusion ends
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 9, 2005
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              --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
              <originalpatricia@y...> probably wrote:

              > any more input on strange Alphabets will result in a blown fuse
              (mine)


              Blown fuse? I'll take that as a challenge:

              http://www.omniglot.com/

              Strange alphabets heaven. As for confusion, I think the day the
              confusion ends that's when we should start getting suspicious.

              LN



              --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
              <originalpatricia@y...> wrote:
              > Thanks so much Llama Nom, that looks good, but when I work with
              my PC on O/E I can read it, well right, but where you say Patricia
              wrote - and I Wrote, Kveðja, how come that does not come out the
              same as I saw it when you repeat it because I'm thinking no,
              Patricia did not type that, please no , cancel that question, I
              think I'll just stay medium-confused, so long as O/E works for me
              and I can read it and study with my PC, never mind my lap-top it has
              too much attitude, I'll leave it there I think, any more input on
              strange Alphabets will result in a blown fuse (mine), but the site,
              excuse me I'm off to investigate it right now
              > Bless
              > Patricia
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: llama_nom
              > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:22 PM
              > Subject: [norse_course] Icelandic Fonts
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Patricia,
              >
              > Here's a nice website about Modern Icelandic where I finally
              found a
              > way of typing Norse characters that works even on my laptop.
              >
              > http://www.mentalcode.com/nl/islenska/index.page
              >
              > Click on the link "Typing foreign characters".
              >
              > Llama Nom
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
              > <originalpatricia@y...> wrote:
              > > Sael Alan
              > > In understanding the system, I do not try to comprehend it
              all,
              > I simply have to use Outlook Express when I work with Norse
              Course,
              > and leave Yahoo to sending funny stuff and Greetings cards.
              > > When I want to type Auðun's name I do { A u (Alt+0240) u
              n , }
              > now is that Unicode, because I have a "Character Map" on the
              PC
              > that works beautifully (but the laptop wont do that) and it
              gives
              > all sorts of Alphabets, but not Runes, on my PC
              > > Kveðja
              > > Patricia
              > > Only trouble I ever have is with Yahoo, Oitlook Express is
              the
              > best for my Studies
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
              >
              > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
              >
              > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
              >
              > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              > ADVERTISEMENT
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -------------------------------------------------------------------
              ---------
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/
              >
              > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
              of Service.
            • Patricia
              Thanks LN, I even learned that I m using Unicode, I must be, and did not know it, for I replied to Imre who has joined us, and my Kveðja turned out to look
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 9, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                Thanks LN,
                I even learned that I'm using Unicode, I must be, and did not know it, for I replied to Imre who has joined us, and my Kveðja turned out to look like Kve?ja because I had a pop up window from O/E which offered me a choice Send in Unicode, send as is, and cancel, the last being unthinkable, I must have clicked on send as is, knowing no better, but to see how it worked I sent myself a message and clicked on Send in Unicode, and my Kveðja came out properly and unaltered.
                Blessings as well,
                Patricia
                who has extreme pop-up-phobia, pop-ups send me to   jelly it is because I'm well enough with the studies but sadly I'm a computer idiot, who has evidently been using Unicode all along and did not know it.
                  As for confusion, I think the day the
                confusion ends that's when we should start getting suspicious.
                you said, yes I shall learn to agree with that I'm sure  I find that a very good thought.

                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: llama_nom
                Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 11:22 PM
                Subject: [norse_course] Re: Icelandic Fonts


                --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
                <originalpatricia@y...> probably wrote:

                > any more input on strange Alphabets will result in a blown fuse
                (mine)


                Blown fuse?  I'll take that as a challenge:

                http://www.omniglot.com/

                Strange alphabets heaven.  As for confusion, I think the day the
                confusion ends that's when we should start getting suspicious.

                LN



                --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
                <originalpatricia@y...> wrote:
                >   Thanks so much Llama Nom, that looks good, but when I work with
                my PC on O/E I can read it, well right,  but where you say Patricia
                wrote - and I Wrote, Kveðja, how come that does not come out the
                same as I saw it when you repeat it because I'm thinking no,
                Patricia did not type that, please no , cancel that question, I
                think I'll just stay medium-confused, so long as O/E works for me
                and I can read it and study with my PC, never mind my lap-top it has
                too much attitude, I'll leave it there I think, any more input on
                strange Alphabets will result in a blown fuse (mine), but the site,
                excuse me I'm off to investigate it right now
                >   Bless
                >   Patricia
                 
                 


                >     ----- Original Message -----
                >     From: llama_nom
                >     To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                >     Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:22 PM
                >     Subject: [norse_course] Icelandic Fonts
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >     Patricia,
                >
                >     Here's a nice website about Modern Icelandic where I finally
                found a
                >     way of typing Norse characters that works even on my laptop.
                >
                >     http://www.mentalcode.com/nl/islenska/index.page
                >
                >     Click on the link "Typing foreign characters".
                >
                >     Llama Nom
                >
                >
                >
                >     --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
                >     <originalpatricia@y...> wrote:
                >     >   Sael Alan
                >     >   In understanding the system, I do not try to comprehend it
                all,
                >     I simply have to use Outlook Express when I work with Norse
                Course,
                >     and leave Yahoo to sending funny stuff and Greetings cards.
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              • Sarah Bowen
                Sæll Alan, Well done. Another excellent translation J. I notice you´ve gone for the slightly more literal approach this time, which certainly shows you´ve
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 11, 2005
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                  Sæll Alan,
                   
                  Well done.  Another excellent translation J.  I notice you´ve gone for the slightly more literal approach this time, which certainly shows you´ve grasped the grammar of the ON.
                   
                  Kveðja,
                  Sarah.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: AThompson
                  Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 8:57 AM
                  Subject: RE: [norse_course] Auðun - section 13

                  Góðan daginn

                   

                  Throughout this story ‘konungr’ appears countless times without a definite article where, in English, one would normally be used; then out of the blue, the article is used in: ‘Ok nú er hann sá konunginn.’ Can anyone give a reason why it would be used on this particular occasion?

                   

                  For Sarah: regarding colouring text when replying to Grace, note that Grace’s emails are in plain text. If you use Microsoft Outlook with MSWord as your text editor you should be able, when you click on Reply toolbar button to create the reply message, (1) to see from the Message Format toolbar combo box that the reply is also automatically set as ”Plain Text” and (2) to then change the Message format to either ”HTML” or ”Rich Text” using the drop-down gizmo attached to the Message Format combo box. Changing the message format to either ”HTML” or ”Rich Text” will then enable the Format/Font menu item, thus allowing you to change font colour.

                   

                  Kveðja

                  Alan

                   

                  Translation: Auðun - 13

                   

                  Hann kømr aptr í Danmǫrk at páskum,

                  He comes back into Denmark at Easter,

                   

                  þangat sem konungr er þá staddr.

                  to there where (the) king is then staying.

                   

                  En eigi þorði hann at láta sjá sik;

                  But he dared not to let (anyone) see himself;

                   

                  ok var í kirkjuskoti ok ætlaði þá til fundar við konung,

                  and was in a wing of the church and intended (looked forward) then to a meeting with (the) king,

                   

                  er hann gengi til kirkju um kveldit.

                  when he (the king) went to church during the evening.

                   

                  Ok nú er hann sá konunginn ok hirðina fagrliga búna,

                  And now when he saw the king and the court beautifully attired,

                   

                  þá þorði hann eigi at láta sjá sik.

                  then he dared not to let (them) see him.

                   

                  Ok er konungr gekk til drykkju í hǫllina,

                  And when (the) king went to (the) drinking in the hall

                   

                  þá mataðisk Auðun úti, sem siðr er til Rúmferla,

                  then Auðun ate outside, as is (the) custom for Rome travellers (pilgrims),

                   

                  meðan þeir hafa eigi kastat staf ok skreppu.

                  while they have not discarded (cast off) staff and scrip.

                   

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Sarah Bowen [mailto:sarahbowen@...]
                  Sent:
                  Friday, 4 March 2005 8:39 AM
                  To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [norse_course] Auðun - section 13

                   

                  Auðun arrives back at Sveinn´s court, rather the worse for wear.

                   

                  Hann kømr aptr í Danmörk at páskum, þangat sem konungr er þá staddr.  En eigi þorði hann at láta sjá sik; ok var í kirkjuskoti ok ætlaði þá til fundar við konung, er hann gengi til kirkju um kveldit.  Ok nú er hann sá konunginn ok hirðina fagrliga búna, þá þorði hann eigi at láta sjá sik.  Ok er konungr gekk til drykkju í höllina, þá mataðisk Auðun úti, sem siðr er til Rúmferla, meðan þeir hafa eigi kastat staf ok skreppu. [test]

                   




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                • IK
                  Sæll Alan, ... As I have seen so far ON seems to be quite consequent in using indefinite form when referring to a person – who is already introduced to the
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 11, 2005
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                    Sćll Alan,


                    I am new to ON, but I think I have a solution to the problem:

                    >Throughout this story ‘konungr’ appears countless times without a
                    >definite article where, in English, one would normally be used; then
                    >out of the blue, the article is used in: ‘Ok nú er hann sá konunginn.’
                    >Can anyone give a reason why it would be used on this particular
                    >occasion?

                    As I have seen so far ON seems to be quite consequent in using
                    indefinite form when referring to a person – who is already introduced
                    to the reader - by his title. As in that part of the text that you have
                    translated the ’konungur’ is in definite form only when it becomes the
                    object (i.e. transformed to accusative) of the sentence:

                    'Ok nú er hann sá konunginn.'

                    Otherwise the word 'konungr' appears in nominative or dative.
                    May be using indefinite form when referring to an already introduced
                    person as the acting person seems to be ok in ON, but as soon as it
                    becomes the objective of the action of an other person it must be
                    clarified - by adding definite article - that it is the aforementioned
                    person and not someone new, i.e. 'He saw the king [that we've been
                    talking about]' and not a new king was seen. May be ON sees this time
                    better to use definite form, feeling that indefinite form could be
                    confusing.


                    Anyway I am may not be right, one might give a different explanation
                    too.

                    Greetings,

                    Imre Kovacs
                    Hungary
                  • llama_nom
                    Hi Imre, This is a very ingenious idea, and one that hadn t occured to me. I m not so sure it works though, but I m not really in a position to judge, given
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 12, 2005
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                      Hi Imre,

                      This is a very ingenious idea, and one that hadn't occured to me.
                      I'm not so sure it works though, but I'm not really in a position to
                      judge, given what Haukur has said about editorial leeway in the
                      matter of abbreviations. I tried searching in an online text of
                      Hrólfs saga kraka, for konungr, konung, konungrinn and konunginn,
                      and found examples of the indefinite accusative 'konung' used of an
                      already introduced person, e.g. Chapter 18 Svipdagr ríðr fyrir
                      konung "S. rode in front of THE king"; 19 ok kvað konung mega þat
                      sjá "and said that THE king could see"; 22 Svipdagr gekk þegar fyrir
                      konung "S. immediately went before the king". Two of these are
                      governed by a preposition, but one is the direct object of a verb,
                      albeit in an accusative + infinitive construction. There are also
                      plenty of instances of the definite nominative konungrinn.

                      (I'm not counting instances where 'konung' appears with a proper
                      name, or with other demonstrative.)

                      Come to think of it, that one's only attested in post-medieval
                      manuscripts. Looking now at Hervarar saga, the R version, which I
                      think dates from the 15th c., I find no examples of 'konunginn', and
                      only two of 'konung':

                      Hjörvarðr biðr konung segja skjótt "H. asked THE king to answer
                      quickly"

                      Nú grunar konung, hverr maðrinn mun vera. "Now the king suspects who
                      this man must be." (But the verb 'gruna' takes accusative for the
                      logical subject, so here 'konung' might be considered the subject,
                      in spite of its accusative form.)

                      Völsunga saga is preserved in a manuscript from around 1400, and the
                      text is dated to the 13th century. It contains lots of examples of
                      the nominative 'konungrinn', but as far as I can see only one
                      accusative 'konung' where English would have a definite article, e.g.

                      Randverr heimti konung á tal "Randver sought an audience with the
                      king"

                      But for all I know these are the exceptions. Maybe it would be
                      better to start with a proper critical edition and try to establish
                      just what the rules are are some particular time in history,
                      although even then the composite nature of so many of these texts
                      and their scribal history could complicate things. Or is there a
                      really obvious rule that we're overlooking?

                      Llama Nom


                      PS. Can anyone recommend any good general books on Old Norse
                      syntax? Preferrably not to specialised or theoretical, but with
                      lots of practical detail.




                      --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, IK <hobbi-germanista@f...>
                      wrote:

                      > >Throughout this story `konungr' appears countless times without
                      a
                      > >definite article where, in English, one would normally be used;
                      then
                      > >out of the blue, the article is used in: `Ok nú er hann sá
                      konunginn.'
                      > >Can anyone give a reason why it would be used on this particular
                      > >occasion?
                      >
                      > As I have seen so far ON seems to be quite consequent in using
                      > indefinite form when referring to a person – who is already
                      introduced
                      > to the reader - by his title. As in that part of the text that you
                      have
                      > translated the 'konungur' is in definite form only when it becomes
                      the
                      > object (i.e. transformed to accusative) of the sentence:
                      >
                      > 'Ok nú er hann sá konunginn.'
                      >
                      > Otherwise the word 'konungr' appears in nominative or dative.
                      > May be using indefinite form when referring to an already
                      introduced
                      > person as the acting person seems to be ok in ON, but as soon as
                      it
                      > becomes the objective of the action of an other person it must be
                      > clarified - by adding definite article - that it is the
                      aforementioned
                      > person and not someone new, i.e. 'He saw the king [that we've been
                      > talking about]' and not a new king was seen. May be ON sees this
                      time
                      > better to use definite form, feeling that indefinite form could be
                      > confusing.
                      >
                      >
                      > Anyway I am may not be right, one might give a different
                      explanation
                      > too.
                      >
                      > Greetings,
                      >
                      > Imre Kovacs
                      > Hungary
                    • IK
                      As for my idea on the ‘konunginn’, it was rather a matter of “instinct”. I think I’ve never seen such a complicated case related to the usage of the
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 12, 2005
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                        As for my idea on the ‘konunginn’, it was rather a matter of “instinct”. I
                        think I’ve never seen such a complicated case related to the usage of
                        the articles. I have been studying two languages so far which don’t
                        even have articles (Finnish and Estonian), and it seems to me that
                        accepting the rule that “there is no article at all” is easier than
                        understanding that the usage of the articles differs some way –
                        comparing to an already spoken language/mother tongue.

                        I’ve tried to recall the proper rules on the articles in the German (to
                        make a comparison, and found that there are some very special cases
                        when the definite article is not used, even though it should be
                        (because the persons/things are already introduced). For example:

                        “Gewerkschaft und Arbeitgeber haben sich vereinbart.”

                        [(The) trade union and (the) employer have come to an agreement…]

                        or

                        “Flora und Fauna des Landes zeigt große Vielfalt.”

                        [(The) flora and (the) fauna of the country show great variety].

                        There are some other cases when the definite article is not used, I
                        can't recall anymore at the moment. But as soon as ‘Gewerkschaft’
                        (employer) is to be put in to accusative etc. a definite article must be
                        used. E.g.:

                        >< Gewerkschaft und >< Arbeitgeber haben sich vereinbart dass es
                        keine Entlassung geben wird. Die Regierung hat bei den
                        Verhandlungen >die< Gewerkschaft unterstützt.

                        [>(The)< trade union and >(the)< employer have agreed that there will
                        be no job cuts. The government supported >the< trade union at the
                        talks.]

                        Briefly, I thought something similar could be in the case
                        of ‘konung/konunginn’.


                        As to your last sentence [“Or is there a really obvious rule that we're
                        overlooking?”], may be the usage of the articles in ON was not as
                        matured/settled as in Modern English, and therefore it could be that it
                        was permissible in ON to shift between definite and indefinite form of
                        nouns without getting the reader/listener confused.


                        Imre


                        PS. I’ve had a glance at the grammars on this page so far:
                        http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/aa_texts.html. I
                        haven’t checked them on syntax and these may be already known to
                        you.
                      • Annika Larla Evensen McKibbin
                        hello imre a wild guess: it might be that the language in this way distinguishes different functions of the king in the text. Without the definite article
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 12, 2005
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                          hello imre
                           
                          a wild guess: it might be that the language in this way distinguishes different functions of 'the king' in the text.  Without the definite article it might relate primarily to his office as king, as a general title with general functions.  With the definite article it might be making a special point of him as a person whom is also king... Or the other way around?
                           
                          Annika

                          llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:


                          Hi Imre,

                          This is a very ingenious idea, and one that hadn't occured to me. 
                          I'm not so sure it works though, but I'm not really in a position to
                          judge, given what Haukur has said about editorial leeway in the
                          matter of abbreviations.  I tried searching in an online text of
                          Hr�lfs saga kraka, for konungr, konung, konungrinn and konunginn,
                          and found examples of the indefinite accusative 'konung' used of an
                          already introduced person, e.g. Chapter 18 Svipdagr r��r fyrir
                          konung "S. rode in front of THE king"; 19 ok kva� konung mega �at
                          sj� "and said that THE king could see"; 22 Svipdagr gekk �egar fyrir
                          konung "S. immediately went before the king".  Two of these are
                          governed by a preposition, but one is the direct object of a verb,
                          albeit in an accusative + infinitive construction.  There are also
                          plenty of instances of the definite nominative konungrinn.

                          (I'm not counting instances where 'konung' appears with a proper
                          name, or with other demonstrative.)

                          Come to think of it, that one's only attested in post-medieval
                          manuscripts.  Looking now at Hervarar saga, the R version, which I
                          think dates from the 15th c., I find no examples of 'konunginn', and
                          only two of 'konung':

                          Hj�rvar�r bi�r konung segja skj�tt "H. asked THE king to answer
                          quickly"

                          N� grunar konung, hverr ma�rinn mun vera. "Now the king suspects who
                          this man must be." (But the verb 'gruna' takes accusative for the
                          logical subject, so here 'konung' might be considered the subject,
                          in spite of its accusative form.)

                          V�lsunga saga is preserved in a manuscript from around 1400, and the
                          text is dated to the 13th century.  It contains lots of examples of
                          the nominative 'konungrinn', but as far as I can see only one
                          accusative 'konung' where English would have a definite article, e.g.

                          Randverr heimti konung � tal "Randver sought an audience with the
                          king"

                          But for all I know these are the exceptions.  Maybe it would be
                          better to start with a proper critical edition and try to establish
                          just what the rules are are some particular time in history,
                          although even then the composite nature of so many of these texts
                          and their scribal history could complicate things.  Or is there a
                          really obvious rule that we're overlooking?

                          Llama Nom


                          PS. Can anyone recommend any good general books on Old Norse
                          syntax?  Preferrably not to specialised or theoretical, but with
                          lots of practical detail.




                          --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, IK <hobbi-germanista@f...>
                          wrote:

                          >  >Throughout this story `konungr' appears countless times without
                          a
                          >  >definite article where, in English, one would normally be used;
                          then
                          >  >out of the blue, the article is used in: `Ok n� er hann s�
                          konunginn.'
                          >  >Can anyone give a reason why it would be used on this particular
                          >  >occasion?
                          >
                          > As I have seen so far ON seems to be quite consequent in using
                          > indefinite form when referring to a person � who is already
                          introduced
                          > to the reader - by his title. As in that part of the text that you
                          have
                          > translated the 'konungur' is in definite form only when it becomes
                          the
                          > object (i.e. transformed to accusative) of the sentence:
                          >
                          > 'Ok n� er hann s� konunginn.'
                          >
                          > Otherwise the word 'konungr' appears in nominative or dative.
                          > May be using indefinite form when referring to an already
                          introduced
                          > person as the acting person seems to be ok in ON, but as soon as
                          it
                          > becomes the objective of the action of an other person it must be
                          > clarified - by adding definite article - that it is the
                          aforementioned
                          > person and not someone new, i.e. 'He saw the king [that we've been
                          > talking about]' and not a new king was seen. May be ON sees this
                          time
                          > better to use definite form, feeling that indefinite form could be
                          > confusing.
                          >

                          > Anyway I am may not be right,  one might give a different
                          explanation
                          > too.
                          >
                          > Greetings,
                          >
                          > Imre Kovacs
                          > Hungary





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                        • AThompson
                          Sæll Imri Your solution makes logical sense and it had occurred to me also, but I don´t think it is supported by the text we are using. During the entire
                          Message 12 of 15 , Mar 12, 2005
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                            Sæll Imri

                             

                            Your solution makes logical sense and it had occurred to me also, but I don´t think it is supported by the text we are using.

                             

                            During the entire story 'konungr' appears seven times in the accusative. In three of those cases it is a direct reference to 'Svein konung' so you would not expect a definite article there anyway.

                             

                            þú hafir fundit Svein konung ok gefit honum gorsimi.

                            lítt nýtr þú þá þess, er þú fant Svein konung.

                            ok sér þá at þú hefir fundit Svein konung

                             

                            Of the remaining four instances,

                             

                            ok er Auðun kom fyrir konung, kveðr hann konung vel.

                            áðr hann fór til Danmerkr, ok kveðr konung vel

                            Ok nú er hann sá konunginn ok hirðina fagrliga búna

                             

                            The definite article is not used in three cases but it is quite clear that it is the king we have been talking about.

                             

                            Also throughout the whole story konungr also appears regularly in the dative and genitive but not once with a definite article.

                             

                            Which leaves me thinking that Haukur´s suggestion of an editorial inconsistency, either in the circa 1220, 1275, 1867 or 1932 text, is the most likely explanation.

                             

                            Kveðja

                            Alan

                             

                             

                             

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: IK [mailto:hobbi-germanista@...]
                            Sent
                            :
                            Saturday, 12 March 2005 9:34 AM
                            To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [norse_course] Auđun 'konunginn'-trouble

                             

                             

                             

                             

                            Sćll Alan,

                             

                             

                            I am new to ON, but I think I have a solution to the problem:

                             

                             >Throughout this story ‘konungr’ appears countless times without a

                             >definite article where, in English, one would normally be used; then

                             >out of the blue, the article is used in: ‘Ok nú er hann sá konunginn.’

                             >Can anyone give a reason why it would be used on this particular

                             >occasion?

                             

                            As I have seen so far ON seems to be quite consequent in using

                            indefinite form when referring to a person – who is already introduced

                            to the reader - by his title. As in that part of the text that you have

                            translated the ’konungur’ is in definite form only when it becomes the

                            object (i.e. transformed to accusative) of the sentence:

                             

                            'Ok nú er hann sá konunginn.'

                             

                            Otherwise the word 'konungr' appears in nominative or dative.

                            May be using indefinite form when referring to an already introduced

                            person as the acting person seems to be ok in ON, but as soon as it

                            becomes the objective of the action of an other person it must be

                            clarified - by adding definite article - that it is the aforementioned

                            person and not someone new, i.e. 'He saw the king [that we've been

                            talking about]' and not a new king was seen. May be ON sees this time

                            better to use definite form, feeling that indefinite form could be

                            confusing.

                             

                             

                            Anyway I am may not be right,  one might give a different explanation

                            too.

                             

                            Greetings,

                             

                            Imre Kovacs

                            Hungary

                             

                             

                             

                             

                             

                             

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                          • Imre
                            Hello Annika, your idea sounds interesting, I didn t even think about it. We should really check this case in the literature on ON. I ll try to do my best, at
                            Message 13 of 15 , Mar 14, 2005
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                              Hello Annika,

                              your idea sounds interesting, I didn't even think about it. We should
                              really check this case in the literature on ON. I'll try to do my best, at
                              least the university I am at also has related literature on Germanic
                              languages. Though I think I have very little chance to find some
                              reasonable material on this very case, Hungary is after all not a
                              paradise for Old Norse philologist ;-). The only Scandinavian Studies
                              Centre of Hungary is at Budapest's ELTE university.

                              Best wishes,

                              Imre

                              aka Emmeríkr

                              - that's my new "Viking" name that I have created from 'Emmerich' (the
                              German original of "Imre").


                              Annika Larla Evensen McKibbin <runadis@...> írta:

                              > hello imre
                              >
                              > a wild guess: it might be that the language in this way distinguishes
                              different functions of 'the king' in the text. Without the definite article it
                              might relate primarily to his office as king, as a general title with
                              general functions. With the definite article it might be making a special
                              point of him as a person whom is also king... Or the other way around?
                              >
                              > Annika
                              >
                              > llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi Imre,
                              >
                              > This is a very ingenious idea, and one that hadn't occured to me.
                              > I'm not so sure it works though, but I'm not really in a position to
                              > judge, given what Haukur has said about editorial leeway in the
                              > matter of abbreviations. I tried searching in an online text of
                              > Hrólfs saga kraka, for konungr, konung, konungrinn and konunginn,
                              > and found examples of the indefinite accusative 'konung' used of an
                              > already introduced person, e.g. Chapter 18 Svipdagr ríđr fyrir
                              > konung "S. rode in front of THE king"; 19 ok kvađ konung mega ţat
                              > sjá "and said that THE king could see"; 22 Svipdagr gekk ţegar fyrir
                              > konung "S. immediately went before the king". Two of these are
                              > governed by a preposition, but one is the direct object of a verb,
                              > albeit in an accusative + infinitive construction. There are also
                              > plenty of instances of the definite nominative konungrinn.
                              >
                              > (I'm not counting instances where 'konung' appears with a proper
                              > name, or with other demonstrative.)
                              >
                              > Come to think of it, that one's only attested in post-medieval
                              > manuscripts. Looking now at Hervarar saga, the R version, which I
                              > think dates from the 15th c., I find no examples of 'konunginn', and
                              > only two of 'konung':
                              >
                              > Hjörvarđr biđr konung segja skjótt "H. asked THE king to answer
                              > quickly"
                              >
                              > Nú grunar konung, hverr mađrinn mun vera. "Now the king suspects
                              who
                              > this man must be." (But the verb 'gruna' takes accusative for the
                              > logical subject, so here 'konung' might be considered the subject,
                              > in spite of its accusative form.)
                              >
                              > Völsunga saga is preserved in a manuscript from around 1400, and
                              the
                              > text is dated to the 13th century. It contains lots of examples of
                              > the nominative 'konungrinn', but as far as I can see only one
                              > accusative 'konung' where English would have a definite article, e.g.
                              >
                              > Randverr heimti konung á tal "Randver sought an audience with the
                              > king"
                              >
                              > But for all I know these are the exceptions. Maybe it would be
                              > better to start with a proper critical edition and try to establish
                              > just what the rules are are some particular time in history,
                              > although even then the composite nature of so many of these texts
                              > and their scribal history could complicate things. Or is there a
                              > really obvious rule that we're overlooking?
                              >
                              > Llama Nom
                              >
                              >
                              > PS. Can anyone recommend any good general books on Old Norse
                              > syntax? Preferrably not to specialised or theoretical, but with
                              > lots of practical detail.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, IK <hobbi-germanista@f...>
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              > > >Throughout this story `konungr' appears countless times without
                              > a
                              > > >definite article where, in English, one would normally be used;
                              > then
                              > > >out of the blue, the article is used in: `Ok nú er hann sá
                              > konunginn.'
                              > > >Can anyone give a reason why it would be used on this
                              particular
                              > > >occasion?
                              > >
                              > > As I have seen so far ON seems to be quite consequent in using
                              > > indefinite form when referring to a person – who is already
                              > introduced
                              > > to the reader - by his title. As in that part of the text that you
                              > have
                              > > translated the 'konungur' is in definite form only when it becomes
                              > the
                              > > object (i.e. transformed to accusative) of the sentence:
                              > >
                              > > 'Ok nú er hann sá konunginn.'
                              > >
                              > > Otherwise the word 'konungr' appears in nominative or dative.
                              > > May be using indefinite form when referring to an already
                              > introduced
                              > > person as the acting person seems to be ok in ON, but as soon as
                              > it
                              > > becomes the objective of the action of an other person it must be
                              > > clarified - by adding definite article - that it is the
                              > aforementioned
                              > > person and not someone new, i.e. 'He saw the king [that we've
                              been
                              > > talking about]' and not a new king was seen. May be ON sees this
                              > time
                              > > better to use definite form, feeling that indefinite form could be
                              > > confusing.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Anyway I am may not be right, one might give a different
                              > explanation
                              > > too.
                              > >
                              > > Greetings,
                              > >
                              > > Imre Kovacs
                              > > Hungary
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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