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Re: Tolkien (was: Barnes vs. Gordon)

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  • llama_nom
    ... This is probably way off the mark, but here goes: Hobbit byggði jörðhús. Þat var eigi hola saurfull ok aurig, drjúp ok blaut, eða maðkfull ok
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 9, 2005
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      > BTW: Do we ever actially try to communicate in Old
      > Norse on this mail group - not there yet but just
      > wondering.

      This is probably way off the mark, but here goes:

      Hobbit byggði jörðhús. Þat var eigi hola saurfull ok aurig, drjúp
      ok blaut, eða maðkfull ok fúl, né enn hola þurr ok auð, söndug ok án
      sætis. Heldr var hobbithola, ok þat gegnir sællífi.

      Hopefully someone will correct my mistakes. I wonder how the Modern
      Icelandic edition begins... I was struck watching the films
      recently by the number of Norse style expressions, e.g. I think
      Gandalf says something like "I have lived three hundred lives of
      men" -- ek hefi lifat þrjú hundrað mannsaldra?

      Llama Nom



      --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Higgins
      <asthiggins@y...> wrote:
      >
      > To All
      >
      > Ok! Ok! I have been in touch with Michael Barnes and
      > will be getting his grammar and reader next week from
      > the Viking Society - until then still plowing my way
      > through E.V. Gordon.
      >
      > BTW: One of my holiday presents was Jane Chance's
      > Tolkien and the Mythic Imagination which has some good
      > essays on Tolkien and the role studying Old Norse
      > (and the Oxford Kolbiter saga reading club) played in
      > the development of his legendiarum.
      >
      > Best, Andy
      >
      > BTW: Do we ever actially try to communicate in Old
      > Norse on this mail group - not there yet but just
      > wondering.
    • Andrew Higgins
      To Norse Group Yeah! I got the Three volume Barnes Old Norse Grammar, Readers and Gloss. Really excellent - I am starting from square one and working
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 10, 2005
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        To Norse Group

        Yeah! I got the Three volume Barnes Old Norse
        Grammar, Readers and Gloss. Really excellent - I am
        starting from square one and working through (then I
        can go back to the Gordon reader - trying to figure
        out what

        Leith erumk fjoll, vaska lengi a
        naetr einar niu;
        ulfa thytr, thottumk illr vesa
        hja songvi svana.

        from Skathis's marriage - is not easy!

        I'm on nouns!

        Best, Andy





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      • llama_nom
        Hi Andy, Brodeur s translation: Loath were the hills to me, | I was not long in them, Nights only nine; To me the wailing of | wolves seemed ill, After the
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 10, 2005
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          Hi Andy,

          Brodeur's translation:

          Loath were the hills to me, | I was not long in them,
          Nights only nine;
          To me the wailing of | wolves seemed ill,
          After the song of swans.

          http://www.tarotbyvolmarr.com/asatru/proseedda/index.shtml

          ...or more idiomatically "only nine nights". Yes, there's lots of
          weird grammatical stuff in poetry that doesn't crop up in ordinary
          prose, making it especially hard to unravel. E.g. vas = var. In
          poetry the pronoun ek "I" is often tagged onto the end of the verb:
          vask "I was" (instead of the normal: ek var). And instead of saying
          eigi "not", poets might add the negative suffix -a or -at. So vas-k-
          a "I was not".

          The -mk ending is the first person middle voice (reflexive, etc.).
          þóttumk = mér þótti "it seemed to me, I thought".

          Good luck with Nouns!

          Llama Nom



          --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Higgins
          <asthiggins@y...> wrote:
          > To Norse Group
          >
          > Yeah! I got the Three volume Barnes Old Norse
          > Grammar, Readers and Gloss. Really excellent - I am
          > starting from square one and working through (then I
          > can go back to the Gordon reader - trying to figure
          > out what
          >
          > Leith erumk fjoll, vaska lengi a
          > naetr einar niu;
          > ulfa thytr, thottumk illr vesa
          > hja songvi svana.
          >
          > from Skathis's marriage - is not easy!
          >
          > I'm on nouns!
          >
          > Best, Andy
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ___________________________________________________________
          > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
          http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
        • Haukur Þorgeirsson
          ... I think this is very amusing and well done :) One correction; jörðhús is, I think, not a valid combination. The usual one is jarðhús . We might
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 24, 2005
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            > This is probably way off the mark, but here goes:
            >
            > Hobbit byggði jörðhús. Þat var eigi hola saurfull ok aurig, drjúp
            > ok blaut, eða maðkfull ok fúl, né enn hola þurr ok auð, söndug ok án
            > sætis. Heldr var hobbithola, ok þat gegnir sællífi.

            I think this is very amusing and well done :)
            One correction; 'jörðhús' is, I think, not a
            valid combination. The usual one is 'jarðhús'.

            We might nativise 'hobbit' as 'hobbitr' or 'hobbiti'.
            The last is one MI version. Another is 'hobbi'. I think
            it's actually a bit interesting *not* to nativise it.
            I wouldn't have thought of that. Nor would I have thought
            of some of the adjectives you use and I think "þat gegnir
            sællífi" for "that means comfort" is pure genius.


            > Hopefully someone will correct my mistakes. I wonder how the Modern
            > Icelandic edition begins...

            I think yours is much more idiosyncratic and interesting.
            The modern translations (I think there are two) are probably
            too loyal to the English version to interest us.

            Kveðja,
            Haukur
          • llama_nom
            Thanks! I just had to paraphrase coz I don´t know many words. And I´d forgotten daunn--I could only remember ilmr, but that´s a good smell . *jörðhús
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 25, 2005
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              Thanks! I just had to paraphrase coz I don´t know many words. And
              I´d forgotten daunn--I could only remember ilmr, but that´s a "good
              smell". *jörðhús was a silly mistake...

              For those of us not so familiar with the MI version, I've just found
              a few quotes here--maybe Patricia already got there?

              http://www.neko.com/Hobbit_IS_FO.html

              Actually, this is funnier to English speakers: skítug!!

              Llama Nom




              --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Haukur Þorgeirsson
              <haukurth@h...> wrote:
              > > This is probably way off the mark, but here goes:
              > >
              > > Hobbit byggði jörðhús. Þat var eigi hola saurfull ok aurig,
              drjúp
              > > ok blaut, eða maðkfull ok fúl, né enn hola þurr ok auð, söndug
              ok án
              > > sætis. Heldr var hobbithola, ok þat gegnir sællífi.
              >
              > I think this is very amusing and well done :)
              > One correction; 'jörðhús' is, I think, not a
              > valid combination. The usual one is 'jarðhús'.
              >
              > We might nativise 'hobbit' as 'hobbitr' or 'hobbiti'.
              > The last is one MI version. Another is 'hobbi'. I think
              > it's actually a bit interesting *not* to nativise it.
              > I wouldn't have thought of that. Nor would I have thought
              > of some of the adjectives you use and I think "þat gegnir
              > sællífi" for "that means comfort" is pure genius.
              >
              >
              > > Hopefully someone will correct my mistakes. I wonder how the
              Modern
              > > Icelandic edition begins...
              >
              > I think yours is much more idiosyncratic and interesting.
              > The modern translations (I think there are two) are probably
              > too loyal to the English version to interest us.
              >
              > Kveðja,
              > Haukur
            • Terje Ellefsen
              ... If I remember correctly, hobbit (rendered in modern English) was supposed to be a modernized version of holbytl (rendered in old English in Rohan).
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 27, 2005
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                >We might nativise 'hobbit' as 'hobbitr' or 'hobbiti'.

                If I remember correctly, "hobbit" (rendered in modern English) was supposed
                to be a modernized version of "holbytl" (rendered in old English in Rohan).
                This, I think, was supposed to mean "hole-builder" or "hole-dweller". In
                nynorsk, a possibility could be something like "Hólbu", and the norse
                version could be something similar.


                Terje


                >From: "llama_nom" <600cell@...>
                >Reply-To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                >To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: [norse_course] Hobbit byggði jarðhús (was Re: Tolkien)
                >Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:14:22 -0000
                >
                >
                >
                >Thanks! I just had to paraphrase coz I don´t know many words. And
                >I´d forgotten daunn--I could only remember ilmr, but that´s a "good
                >smell". *jörðhús was a silly mistake...
                >
                >For those of us not so familiar with the MI version, I've just found
                >a few quotes here--maybe Patricia already got there?
                >
                >http://www.neko.com/Hobbit_IS_FO.html
                >
                >Actually, this is funnier to English speakers: skítug!!
                >
                >Llama Nom
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Haukur Þorgeirsson
                ><haukurth@h...> wrote:
                > > > This is probably way off the mark, but here goes:
                > > >
                > > > Hobbit byggði jörðhús. Þat var eigi hola saurfull ok aurig,
                >drjúp
                > > > ok blaut, eða maðkfull ok fúl, né enn hola þurr ok auð, söndug
                >ok án
                > > > sætis. Heldr var hobbithola, ok þat gegnir sællífi.
                > >
                > > I think this is very amusing and well done :)
                > > One correction; 'jörðhús' is, I think, not a
                > > valid combination. The usual one is 'jarðhús'.
                > >
                > > We might nativise 'hobbit' as 'hobbitr' or 'hobbiti'.
                > > The last is one MI version. Another is 'hobbi'. I think
                > > it's actually a bit interesting *not* to nativise it.
                > > I wouldn't have thought of that. Nor would I have thought
                > > of some of the adjectives you use and I think "þat gegnir
                > > sællífi" for "that means comfort" is pure genius.
                > >
                > >
                > > > Hopefully someone will correct my mistakes. I wonder how the
                >Modern
                > > > Icelandic edition begins...
                > >
                > > I think yours is much more idiosyncratic and interesting.
                > > The modern translations (I think there are two) are probably
                > > too loyal to the English version to interest us.
                > >
                > > Kveðja,
                > > Haukur
                >
                >
                >

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              • llama_nom
                ... supposed ... in Rohan). ... dweller . In ... norse ... Holubúi Hobbúi, maybe? Now time for some hubris: Fjarri yfir þokufjöll skulum brott í óttu
                Message 7 of 19 , Jan 27, 2005
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                  --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Terje Ellefsen"
                  <radiorabia@h...> wrote:
                  > >We might nativise 'hobbit' as 'hobbitr' or 'hobbiti'.
                  >
                  > If I remember correctly, "hobbit" (rendered in modern English) was
                  supposed
                  > to be a modernized version of "holbytl" (rendered in old English
                  in Rohan).
                  > This, I think, was supposed to mean "hole-builder" or "hole-
                  dweller". In
                  > nynorsk, a possibility could be something like "Hólbu", and the
                  norse
                  > version could be something similar.
                  >
                  >
                  > Terje


                  Holubúi > Hobbúi, maybe? Now time for some hubris:


                  Fjarri yfir þokufjöll
                  skulum brott í óttu mjöll,
                  at sækja oss it galina gull,
                  föl mæti heilug, meginfull.

                  Ár gerðu dvargar galdra fjölð,
                  fjölkyngi máttugri gersima örð.
                  Í höllum holum var hringing heyrð
                  hamra Durins djúpt í jörð.

                  Fornvísum smíðuðu, fylkjum álfa,
                  gulli glæst gerðu sverð.
                  Skaut sköpuðu, skreyttu hjölt
                  mærum mösmum – váru mæti björt.

                  Sólar ljós sá hamri sló –
                  smiðr inn steinbúandi – málm hann hjó,
                  í undnum víri dreka fúr
                  ok, gneita í millim, mána gló.

                  Fjarri yfir niflug fjöll
                  skulum brott í óttu mjöll,
                  at heimta oss it bleika gull,
                  féföng heilluð galdrafull.

                  Dengdu dvergar dimmraddaðar
                  harpa mengi – mangi veit
                  hvat kvæði kváðu kindir Dvalins,
                  né hverja söngva söng Kila sveit.

                  Þallar þrumuðu þurrar á hæð.
                  Stundu vindar, vaknaði græð.
                  Hyrr í húmi hvarvetna rann.
                  Furðurauðar furur brann.

                  Kvað við klukkan, þreyðu undan,
                  í borg neðan bál brunnu hátt.
                  Fjölða feigan á flótta dreifði.
                  Drekans reiði kom at miðri nátt.

                  Undan kvámust bergi frá
                  dverga fáir einir þá.
                  Við mána reyktu fjöll öll rauð.
                  Inn fráni snákr sá hvar valr of lá.

                  Fjarri yfir úrig fjöll
                  oss fýsir fara um löndin öll.
                  Skulum rísa fyrir dag,
                  harma at hefna ok bæta hag.


                  I cheated a bit as there are two made up words: gló "glow"--I
                  couldn't find a noun derivative of glóa. And niflug "misty", from
                  nifl- compounds. It's probably terrible Norse in lots of other ways
                  I haven't thought of, but maybe we'll all learn something from my
                  mistakes... I learnt some new words anyway: dengja "hammer,
                  sharpen", græð "malice", örð "harvest".

                  Fornvísum smíðuðu "made for ancient kings". Supposed to be an ethic
                  dative, "for". Or would 'fyrir' be more likely?

                  Would it be 'hvat kvæði' "what songs/lays"--would the relative
                  pronoun / interrogative have to be plural, or would it be phrased:
                  hvat kvæða "what of songs"?

                  leggja á flótta "put to flight"--I don't know if 'dreifði' would be
                  possible here, but I stuck it in anyway for the rhyme.

                  How convincing are: skulum brott "we must away" (literally), &
                  þreyðu undan "they yearned to escape"? Can anyone think of a better
                  word to alliterate? I did have kröfðu undan, but I though that
                  might be more like "they asked/demanded to escape", if the phrase is
                  even possible. If I remember right, 'biðja undan' = "to make an
                  excuse to get out of something".

                  'steinbúandi', or maybe 'steinbúi', although I found this as a heiti
                  for "snake". But also in a later folktake referring to a dwarf.

                  In fact I'm curious to know how much of this even makes sense! By
                  the way, 'úrig fjöll' (actually "drizzly fells") crops up in
                  Hamðismál, and is supposed to have been Tolkien´s inspiration for
                  The Misty Mountains.

                  LN








                  >
                  > >From: "llama_nom" <600cell@o...>
                  > >Reply-To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                  > >To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Subject: [norse_course] Hobbit byggði jarðhús (was Re: Tolkien)
                  > >Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:14:22 -0000
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >Thanks! I just had to paraphrase coz I don´t know many words.
                  And
                  > >I´d forgotten daunn--I could only remember ilmr, but that´s
                  a "good
                  > >smell". *jörðhús was a silly mistake...
                  > >
                  > >For those of us not so familiar with the MI version, I've just
                  found
                  > >a few quotes here--maybe Patricia already got there?
                  > >
                  > >http://www.neko.com/Hobbit_IS_FO.html
                  > >
                  > >Actually, this is funnier to English speakers: skítug!!
                  > >
                  > >Llama Nom
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Haukur Þorgeirsson
                  > ><haukurth@h...> wrote:
                  > > > > This is probably way off the mark, but here goes:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hobbit byggði jörðhús. Þat var eigi hola saurfull ok aurig,
                  > >drjúp
                  > > > > ok blaut, eða maðkfull ok fúl, né enn hola þurr ok auð,
                  söndug
                  > >ok án
                  > > > > sætis. Heldr var hobbithola, ok þat gegnir sællífi.
                  > > >
                  > > > I think this is very amusing and well done :)
                  > > > One correction; 'jörðhús' is, I think, not a
                  > > > valid combination. The usual one is 'jarðhús'.
                  > > >
                  > > > We might nativise 'hobbit' as 'hobbitr' or 'hobbiti'.
                  > > > The last is one MI version. Another is 'hobbi'. I think
                  > > > it's actually a bit interesting *not* to nativise it.
                  > > > I wouldn't have thought of that. Nor would I have thought
                  > > > of some of the adjectives you use and I think "þat gegnir
                  > > > sællífi" for "that means comfort" is pure genius.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > > Hopefully someone will correct my mistakes. I wonder how the
                  > >Modern
                  > > > > Icelandic edition begins...
                  > > >
                  > > > I think yours is much more idiosyncratic and interesting.
                  > > > The modern translations (I think there are two) are probably
                  > > > too loyal to the English version to interest us.
                  > > >
                  > > > Kveðja,
                  > > > Haukur
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > _________________________________________________________________
                  > MSN Hotmail http://www.hotmail.com Med markedets beste SPAM-
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