Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [norse_course] Digest Number 897

Expand Messages
  • David Darois
    Can anyone recommend a solution for Office X for masc users who would like to be able to type or pring Norse characters? By the way, what is the parent
    Message 1 of 2 , Jul 26, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Can anyone recommend a solution for Office X for masc
      users who would like to be able to type or pring Norse
      characters?

      By the way, what is the parent language of Old Norse


      --- norse_course@yahoogroups.com wrote:
      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > --------------------~-->
      > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion
      > Toolbar.
      > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
      >
      http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/GP4qlB/TM
      >
      --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
      >
      >
      > There are 2 messages in this issue.
      >
      > Topics in this digest:
      >
      > 1. Icelandic and Old Icelandic
      > From: "William Calhoun"
      > <wcalhoun13@...>
      > 2. Re: Icelandic and Old Icelandic
      > From: Haukur Thorgeirsson
      > <haukurth@...>
      >
      >
      >
      ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 1
      > Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:43:52 -0400
      > From: "William Calhoun" <wcalhoun13@...>
      > Subject: Icelandic and Old Icelandic
      >
      >
      >
      > I have studied modern Icelandic and I am well
      > acquainted with the sounds of
      > the language but I am correct in saying that modern
      > Icelandic has a whole
      > slew of new sounds that Old Norse did not? Is it
      > safe to say that the
      > pronunciation of Icleandic has changed a lot in the
      > past 1000 years?
      > Concerning the pronunciation of Old Norse, I should
      > NOT pronounce:
      >
      > LL as in Icelandic 's�ll' (tl) but as an Icelandic L
      > � as in Icelandic '�g' (ye)
      > AU as in Icelandic 'auga' (French 'euille') but as
      > English 'cow'
      > � as in Icelandic '�r' but as a lengthened Icelandic
      > A
      > U as in Icelandic 'eru" but as an Icelandic �
      > � as in Icelandic '<thorn>�r' (English 'die') but as
      in
      > English 'at'
      > RN as in Icelandic 'barn' (dn) but as (rn)
      > FN as in Icelandic 'nafn" but as (vn)
      > RL as in Icelandic 'karl' but as (rl)
      > V as in Icelandic 'vatn' but as in English 'water'
      > HV as in Icelandic 'hva<eth>" but as in English
      'what'
      > O as in Icelandic 'kona' but as a Icelandic �
      > Y/Y� as in Icelandic 'yfir'/'y�sa' but as in a short
      > and long German � (�ber)
      > or French u (tu)
      > I as in Icelandic 'vi<eth>' but as an Icelandic �
      > G in medial position as in Icelandic 'segir' but as
      > in Icelandic 'gull'
      >
      > If this assumption is false, please let me know.
      >
      > Also I would like to know if you could tell me why
      > the 'v�r' and '<thorn>�r' of
      > Old Norse are 'vi<eth>' and '<thorn>i<eth>' in
      modern Icelandic,
      > which resemble more the
      > dual pronouns of Old Norse.
      > Thank you,
      > William Calhoun
      >
      >
      _________________________________________________________________
      > Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN
      > Search!
      >
      http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 2
      > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:00:42 +0000
      > From: Haukur Thorgeirsson <haukurth@...>
      > Subject: Re: Icelandic and Old Icelandic
      >
      > > I have studied modern Icelandic and I am well
      > acquainted with the sounds of
      > > the language but I am correct in saying that
      > modern Icelandic has a whole
      > > slew of new sounds that Old Norse did not?
      >
      > I don't know about 'slew' but some, certainly :) And
      > vice versa.
      >
      >
      > > Is it safe to say that the
      > > pronunciation of Icleandic has changed a lot in
      > the past 1000 years?
      >
      > Sure.
      >
      >
      > > Concerning the pronunciation of Old Norse, I
      > should NOT pronounce:
      > >
      > > LL as in Icelandic 's�ll' (tl) but as an Icelandic
      > L
      > > � as in Icelandic '�g' (ye)
      > > AU as in Icelandic 'auga' (French 'euille') but as
      > English 'cow'
      > > � as in Icelandic '�r' but as a lengthened
      > Icelandic A
      > > U as in Icelandic 'eru" but as an Icelandic �
      > > � as in Icelandic '<thorn>�r' (English 'die') but
      as in
      > English 'at'
      > > RN as in Icelandic 'barn' (dn) but as (rn)
      > > FN as in Icelandic 'nafn" but as (vn)
      > > RL as in Icelandic 'karl' but as (rl)
      > > V as in Icelandic 'vatn' but as in English 'water'
      >
      > More or less.
      >
      >
      > > HV as in Icelandic 'hva<eth>" but as in English
      'what'
      >
      > Well... It's not exactly the same. But it seems both
      > are classified
      > as rounded voiceless labio-velar fricatives. To me
      > the Icelandic sound
      > is more clearly a fricative and the English one,
      > even when clearly pronounced,
      > sounds more like an approximant.
      >
      >
      > > O as in Icelandic 'kona' but as a Icelandic �
      >
      > The Icelandic /�/ is a diphthong but the Old Norse
      > /o/ was supposedly
      > a monophthong. Got to love those phthongs.
      >
      >
      > > Y/Y� as in Icelandic 'yfir'/'y�sa' but as in a
      short
      > and long German � (�ber)
      > > or French u (tu)
      > > I as in Icelandic 'vi<eth>' but as an Icelandic �
      >
      > More or less.
      >
      >
      > > G in medial position as in Icelandic 'segir' but
      > as in Icelandic 'gull'
      >
      > On the contrary. Medial /g/ was originally a
      > fricative as in Icelandic 'dagur'.
      > In 'segir' we can assume the alveolar fricative
      > gaining palatilization to finally
      > end up as /j/. In any case the /g/ in 'segir' was
      > never pronounced as the
      > /g/ in MI 'gull'.
      >
      >
      > > Also I would like to know if you could tell me why
      > the 'v�r' and '<thorn>�r' of
      > > Old Norse are 'vi<eth>' and '<thorn>i<eth>' in
      modern Icelandic,
      > which resemble more the
      > > dual pronouns of Old Norse.
      >
      > The old plural came to be an honorific form and the
      > dual took over its function.
      > This was fairly late in the day (15th-17th
      > century?). The Icelandic bible distinguishes
      > between dual and plural (though I don't think either
      > Hebrew or Koine do so).
      >
      > Here's an example from the first chapter of John's
      > gospel:
      >
      >
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > 37 L�risveinar hans tveir heyr<eth>u or<eth> hans og
      f�ru �
      > eftir Jes�.
      > 38 Jes�s sneri s�r vi<eth>, s� <thorn>� koma � eftir
      s�r og
      > sag<eth>i vi<eth> <thorn>�: "Hvers leiti<eth>
      <thorn>i<eth>?"
      > <THORN>eir svara: "Rabb� (<thorn>a<eth>
      <thorn>y�<eth>ir meistari), hvar dvelst
      > <thorn>�?"
      >
      > 37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they
      > followed Jesus.
      > 38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and
      > saith unto them, What seek ye?
      > They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being
      > interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
      >
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > Since the text states that there were exactly two
      > disciples the translation
      > uses the dual (hvers leiti<eth> _<thorn>i<eth>_).
      Later on one of
      > the two men says:
      >
      > ---------------------------
      > "Vi<eth> h�fum fundi<eth> Mess�as!"
      >
      > We have found the Messias
      > ---------------------------
      >
      > In the sixth chapther we find this:
      >
      >
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > 67 <THORN>� sag<eth>i Jes�s vi<eth> <thorn>� t�lf:
      "�tli<eth> <thorn>�r a<eth> fara
      > l�ka?"
      > 68 S�mon P�tur svara<eth>i honum: "Herra, til hvers
      > �ttum v�r a<eth> fara? <THORN>� hefur or<eth> eil�fs
      l�fs,
      >
      > 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go
      > away?
      > 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom
      > shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
      >
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > In this case we know that Jesus is talking to 'the
      > twelve' so the plural is called for.
      > Peter replies in the plural since he is also
      > referring to the lot of them.
      >
      > Kve<eth>ja,
      > Haukur
      >
      >
      >
      ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      >
      > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
      >
      > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
      >
      > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an
      > e-mail to:
      >
      > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >
      >




      __________________________________
      Do you Yahoo!?
      Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
      http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
    • Haukur Thorgeirsson
      ... Why, Even Older Norse of course! :) It s usually called Proto-Norse. That, in turn, is a descendant of Proto-Germanic which is a descendant of
      Message 2 of 2 , Jul 26, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        > By the way, what is the parent language of Old Norse

        Why, Even Older Norse of course! :)

        It's usually called Proto-Norse. That, in turn, is a descendant
        of Proto-Germanic which is a descendant of Proto-Indo-European.

        Something like that. A handful of inscriptions are preserved
        in Proto-Norse. From those and comparative linguistics we have
        a pretty solid idea of what the language looked like.

        Kveðja,
        Haukur
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.