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Sv: Re: Sv: Pronounciation of old norse (forgotten arcane dialects?)

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  • sjuler
    Erek, Unfortunately, most easy-to-access material about Dalecarlian on the net is made by one single guy, namely me (except some wordlists and minor
    Message 1 of 34 , Mar 30, 2004
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      Erek,

      Unfortunately, most easy-to-access material about Dalecarlian on the
      net is made by one single guy, namely me (except some wordlists and
      minor grammatical treatizes). Thus, there's not much out there.

      It's a pitty that the Gutnish material by the group Propago (all
      stuff in principle written by a single person, Anna-Carin Gahm, with
      whom I used to exchange emails with quite frequently). I don't know
      what happened to them, they seemed to have something going on and the
      standardized written normal they had produced was really nice.



      /Sjuler

      > Sjuler,
      >
      > I (and am sure many others) look forward to your efforts on
      Dalecarlian. Though most of us have probably heard of about it, I
      know I've never had a real opportunity to see material about it. I
      spent several hours this week-end past going over the material. Hope
      to see more, and wish that more literature were readily available so
      as to its actual use.
      >
      > It is disappointing that the Juntish material is mostly off the
      web. Glad I was able to print it off whilst it was still available.
      >
      > Erek
      >
      >
      > --- "sjuler" <sjuler@y...> wrote:
      > I know the Faroese site at UniLang Wiki very well, and I know the
      guy
      > (Johan Petur Dam) who made it. In principle he translated a Faroese
      > book on the subject into English and tranformed it into internet
      > format. A very great job indeed.
      > It is not too strange that Faroese is best represented langauge on
      > UniLang Wiki since languages like English, Spanish, French etc are
      so
      > well known anyway.
      > My Dalecarlian site is loosely based on the Faroese site, i.e. I am
      > presenting my stuff in a quite similar way. My plan is to make the
      > Dalecarlian BETTER represented than Faroese on Wiki. Of course,
      this
      > is because of the same reason as faroese is the best represented at
      > the moment. Dalecarlian is even more unknown than Faroese, thus I
      > believe that an extended work on Dalecarlian site will be
      profitable.
      >
      >
      > /Sjuler
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, erek gass <egass@c...> wrote:
      > > I don't know whether anyone posted (and I missed the info),
      > but "wiki" also has a very nice Faeroese site -- in fact, it is the
      > BEST represented language @ unilang2.
      > >
      > > Erek
      > >
      > >
      > > --- pdhanssen@a... wrote:
      > >
      > > Takk, Sjuler.
      > >
      > > Sorry it has taken me so long to reply.
      > > To answer your question,
      > > I do not remember how I found the Norrlandic site,
      > > I thought that someone here in norse_course referred to it.
      > > Anyway, from there, it wasn't hard to take a look at the
      Jamtlandic
      > contents.
      > >
      > > I shall miss them,
      > > but I thank you and your friend for posting them.
      > >
      > > Good luck with the Dalecarlian pages at UniLang Wiki.
      > >
      > > Takk, Sjuler.
      > > Med vennligste hilsener,
      > > Paul.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > In a message dated 3/19/2004 4:18:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      > sjuler@y... writes:
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > I found my copy of "An Introduction to Modern Faeroese"
      > > > > by Lockwood and it is indeed spelled "Sjúrður".
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > Then we know (and will never forget) :)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I thought it was the work of someone else,
      > > > > > > someone who is also member of the norse_course discussion
      > > > > > > But I could be wrong and I am going on memory right now.
      > > > > > > My notebook is packed away for the near future.
      > > > >
      > > > > I just remembered. I found a reference to Norrlandsko
      > (Norrlandic)
      > > > at this URL ...
      > > > >
      > > > > http://www.geocities.com/jamtlandic/norrlandic/norrlandic.html
      > > > >
      > > > > ... and to Jamtlandic at this URL ...
      > > > >
      > > > > http://www.geocities.com/jamtlandic/
      > > > >
      > > > > Both are by the same author, I think.
      > > >
      > > > Yes, they are indeed. I made them ;)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > Have you and Bo Oscarsson seen these?
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > Me, sure, but I don't know if Bo has seen them.
      > > > The one about Norrländska is about a conlang based on the
      > dialects of
      > > > the northern parts of Sweden; noone speak like this since it has
      > > > fragments from most parts of the province. I invented it just
      to
      > play
      > > > around and show it to other norrlanders as an internal
      practical
      > joke
      > > > (a serious one, though), more or less.
      > > > The one about Jamtlandic - which I hope I haven't linked to
      > anywhere -
      > > > is Jamtlandic with lots of etymological "corrections". The
      > > > inflections are actually simpler than what you see on those
      pages
      > > > (but we DO have four cases!). I hoped only me and my brazilian
      > friend
      > > > should know about it, but you easily get the URL by deleting
      the
      > last
      > > > parts of the URL for Norrlandic homepage (which I have linked
      to
      > at a
      > > > few places). My plan was that I should delete the Jamtlandic
      > pages as
      > > > soon as my friend had finished the exercises, but still - after
      > 1½
      > > > year - he is working on it.
      > > > BTW, how did you find these URL:s?
      > > >
      > > > I am currently working on the Dalecarlian pages at UniLang
      Wiki,
      > but
      > > > those damn nasal vowels make me hesitate!
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > In a message dated 3/17/2004 5:18:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      > > > sjuler@y... writes:
      > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, pdhanssen@a... wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > ...
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > I would go for the spelling 'Olboka'. Bo disagrees
      > though, and
      > > > > > he's
      > > > > > > > the boss...
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I think it's a good idea to keep the "r" in the spelling,
      > > > > > > to show the kinship with the other Skandinaviska
      languages.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Hmmm, perhaps 'rð' should work in Jamtlandic spelling.
      > > > Faroese 'ð' is
      > > > > > never pronunced (not in the original manner, anyway), and
      > they use
      > > > > > it. Jamtlandic have the original pronunciation in some words
      > > > > > (alternatively, it has become silent like in most other
      > Mainland
      > > > > > Norse dialects).
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > In modern Faeroese, "Sigurður" has become "Sjurð
      ur".
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > I thought it was "Sjúrður".
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I should look again, although right now it shall be a
      little
      > > > > > > hard to find my resources since we (my wife, 2 sons and
      I)
      > have
      > > > > > just moved into a smaller apartment and most of my library
      is
      > > > packed
      > > > > > away.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Okay. The spelling 'Sjúrður' may be verified like
      this.
      > Search
      > > > > > for 'Sjúrður' and 'Sjurður' on, e.g. (preferably),
      > > > www.google.com . I
      > > > > > get the following result:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > 'Sjúrður': 962 hits,
      > > > > > 'Sjurður': 9 hits.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Thus, 99% of the found spellings are 'Sjúrður', and I
      > imagine that
      > > > > > the reminder of 1% is due to misspelling (intentional?).
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > ...
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Last year, in the spring and summer, I collected a
      large
      > > > number
      > > > > > of
      > > > > > > > internet references to someone's work on producing a
      > grammar
      > > > and
      > > > > > on-
      > > > > > > > line textbook on the Jamtska language.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Which one? Bo Oscarsson's resources?
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I thought it was the work of someone else,
      > > > > > > someone who is also a member of the norse_course
      discussion
      > > > group.
      > > > > > > But I could be wrong and I am going on memory right now.
      > > > > > > My notebook is packed away for the near future.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I have made such a resource, but it is not linked to since
      the
      > > > > > material is not supposed to be spread outside a very limited
      > > > group (I
      > > > > > have copied material from Old Norse Course and rewritten
      it).
      > I
      > > > can't
      > > > > > give you the link here. The web pages will be terminated as
      > soon
      > > > as
      > > > > > my friend (and Jamtlandic language student) is finished
      with
      > the
      > > > > > course. I am intending to write one more similar to the
      > > > Dalecarlian
      > > > > > at UniLang Wiki, and less etymology (16h century
      > conjugations and
      > > > > > declinations) embedded in the grammar (but more in the
      > spelling).
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > > Perhaps Erek Gass can help us out.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Have you seen this other look at Dalecarlian?
      > > > > > > ... http://www.mdstud.chalmers.se/~md2perpe/Dalska/ ...
      > > > > > > ( ... http://kb.vefur.is/gestabok.asp ... )
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I know the first link since it was the first one about
      > > > Dalecarlian I
      > > > > > encountered.´
      > > > > > The second link conains a poem in Jamtlandic with a very
      > strange
      > > > and
      > > > > > bad spelling, but nothing about Dalecarlian there. I can't
      > change
      > > > the
      > > > > > posting I made there on the Guestbook - yes, I am the guilty
      > > > one :)
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Takk, Sjuler.
      > > > > > > Med vennligste hilsener,
      > > > > > > Paul.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Hälsningar,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > /Sjuler - (aka Jens Persson)
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > In a message dated 3/16/2004 5:43:14 PM Eastern Standard
      > Time,
      > > > > > sjuler@y... writes:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Takk, Sjuler.
      > > > > > > > > I have bought a copy of Bo Oscarssons Jamtska Orlboka.
      > > > > > > > > Your explanation below of " rð > l " explains why
      the
      > > > > > dictionary is
      > > > > > > > called " Orlboka " instead of " Orðboka "
      > > > > > > > > as I would have expected.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > I have been discussing the spelling 'rl' with Bo. He's
      > really
      > > > a
      > > > > > fan
      > > > > > > > of it since in Standard Swedish (based on Central
      Swedish
      > > > > > > > dialects), 'rl' is pronunced as a retroflex l
      > > > > > > > ('pärla', 'karl', 'arla', 'farlig' etc), which is
      quite
      > > > similar to
      > > > > > > > the cacuminal l which has replaced 'rð' in
      Jamtlandic
      > (and
      > > > most
      > > > > > other
      > > > > > > > non-danish and non-southwestern norwegian dialects).
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > I would go for the spelling 'Olboka'. Bo disagrees
      > though, and
      > > > > > he's
      > > > > > > > the boss...
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > In modern Faeroese, "Sigurður" has become "Sjurð
      ur".
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > I thought it was "Sjúrður".
      > > > > > > > 16th (and 17th?) century Jamtlandic had 'Sjuler';
      that's
      > why
      > > > I use
      > > > > > > > this nick. Dalecarlian has preserved the '-er' ending
      in
      > the
      > > > > > definite
      > > > > > > > form of (strong masculine) nouns. For example, 'vargen'
      > > > [wArr´Gen]
      > > > > > > > (nom) vs 'vargin' [wArr´dZen] (ack) - 'the wolf'.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > I am enjoying very much the internet pages about the
      > > > Dalecarlian
      > > > > > > > language.
      > > > > > > > > Sjuler, are you writing these pages?
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Yes, and I am far from finished. I am hesitating about
      the
      > > > > > > > orthography though, especially how to write nasal
      vowels.
      > I
      > > > > > use 'ñ'
      > > > > > > > in the web pages at the moment.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Last year, in the spring and summer, I collected a
      large
      > > > number
      > > > > > of
      > > > > > > > internet references to someone's work on producing a
      > grammar
      > > > and
      > > > > > on-
      > > > > > > > line textbook on the Jamtska language.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Which one? Bo Oscarsson's resources?
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > It is great that someone is preserving these
      languages.
      > > > > > > > > Can Gutniska be recovered?
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Propago was trying a few years ago, but I haven't heard
      > > > anything
      > > > > > from
      > > > > > > > them. Their email addresses have stopped working, so I
      > cannot
      > > > > > contact
      > > > > > > > them :(
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Takk, Sjuler.
      > > > > > > > > Med vennligste hilsener,
      > > > > > > > > Paul Hansen.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Tack för visat intresse!
      > > > > > > > Hälsningar,
      > > > > > > > /Sjuler
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > In a message dated 3/14/2004 3:35:50 PM Eastern
      Standard
      > > > Time,
      > > > > > > > sjuler@y... writes:
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Hi,
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > I know the history of Jamtland since I am from the
      > > > province
      > > > > > myself
      > > > > > > > > > (and I know Bo Oscarsson, whose web pages -
      > > > > > > > > > http://w1.635.telia.com/~u63501054/ -
      > > > > > > > > > I assume you are referring to).
      > > > > > > > > > Jamtlandic used to be a pure Western Norse dialect,
      > and my
      > > > > > > > ancestors
      > > > > > > > > > spread Western Norse as far east as into Finland
      > > > (province of
      > > > > > > > > > Austrbotn). No far from the Baltic Sea, with
      Austrbotn
      > > > not far
      > > > > > > > away
      > > > > > > > > > on the other side of the sea, people actually spoke
      > like
      > > > this
      > > > > > in
      > > > > > > > mid
      > > > > > > > > > 14th century:
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > "Vyrduleghum herra sinum herra Magnusi med guds nad
      > > > > > > > > > Noregs Swya ok Skane konongi h/oe/yllsa Lafrandz
      > Gunnasson
      > > > > > > > logmader
      > > > > > > > > > j Jamtalande ok Siugurder Endridar sson vmbods madr
      > Biarna
      > > > > > > > Erlings-
      > > > > > > > > > sonar j fyrnemfdo landæ q. g. ok sina audmiuka
      > skylldugha
      > > > > > > > þ/oe/nosto.
      > > > > > > > > > yder vilium mit kunnigt gera at eftir bode ok
      brefui
      > ydru
      > > > min
      > > > > > > > herra
      > > > > > > > > > tokom mit prof a R/oe/fsundum j gilda skalanum a
      > manadagin
      > > > > > nesta
      > > > > > > > ef-
      > > > > > > > > > tir Bonofacii m/oe/sso a fimta are ok tuttugta rikis
      > > > ydars min
      > > > > > > > herra
      > > > > > > > > > vm aftak *Hunælfs Alfuers sson er Olafuer Biarna
      sson
      > > > vard aat
      > > > > > > > skada
      > > > > > > > > > vfirir syniu varo þar þa erfwingiar hins
      dauda
      > logligha
      > > > till
      > > > > > > > stemfdir.
      > > > > > > > > > Var þat aat vpphafue vidratto þæira at
      Olafuer ok
      > Hunæfuer
      > > > > > varo
      > > > > > > > til
      > > > > > > > > > gæst hia Jone iambr hafde þa Hunæfuer
      fyrnemfdr
      > eina aar
      > > > ok
      > > > > > stak
      > > > > > > > > > Olaf j briostid firir ofwan geirwortuna so at
      Olafuer
      > var
      > > > > > lengi
      > > > > > > > krankr
      > > > > > > > > > af. sagde þa Hunæfuer at hann vildi eii gort
      hafua
      > honom
      > > > en
      > > > > > > > Olafuer
      > > > > > > > > > suarade. þat venter ek at þu gerdir þat
      firir engum
      > > > ilvilia.
      > > > > > baro
      > > > > > > > > > þetta ok suoro Biorn iambr ok Jon Þoriss sson
      at so
      > var
      > > > ord
      > > > > > eftir
      > > > > > > > orde
      > > > > > > > > > sem nu er sagt. stod þetta þæira millium
      ual vm
      > fim aar at
      > > > > > þæir
      > > > > > > > varo
      > > > > > > > > > ekki sattir en fim vettrum lidnum komo þæir
      badir
      > saman
      > > > til
      > > > > > > > > > R/oe/fsunda ok var þa Olafuer j kirkiugardenum
      kom
      > þa
      > > > Hunæfuer
      > > > > > > > > > gangande j kirkiu garden ok talade till Olafs laat
      eii
      > > > illa
      > > > > > > > Olafuer
      > > > > > > > > > min þar sem þik þr/oe/ngir enki vm. Þui
      nest stak
      > Olafuer
      > > > > > > > oftnemfdan
      > > > > > > > > > Hunef j briostid med knifue ok sagde so. haf
      þetta
      > firir
      > > > hitt
      > > > > > er
      > > > > > > > > > fyrri var. lifdi Hunæfuer nokora dagha eftir
      þat en
      > þo do
      > > > > > hann þar
      > > > > > > > > > af. suoro þetta Besse Berþors sson ok Ketill
      > Skeggia sson
      > > > at
      > > > > > so
      > > > > > > > var
      > > > > > > > > > sem nu er sagt. Tokom mit ok viglysingar vitni
      þæira
      > > > manna er
      > > > > > so
      > > > > > > > > > heita ok so suoro a bok Gregorius Jorundar sson ok
      > Helgho
      > > > > > Vestars
      > > > > > > > > > dottor at Olafuer oftnemfdr kom till þæira
      > samd/oe/ghers
      > > > sem
      > > > > > hann
      > > > > > > > > > hafde þat vigh wnnit ok lysti firir þæim
      at þat
      > sem
      > > > Hunæfuer
      > > > > > fæk
      > > > > > > > af
      > > > > > > > > > mik huart sem hann fær þar af bott ædr
      bana þa
      > gerdi þat
      > > > engin
      > > > > > > > vttan
      > > > > > > > > > ek. var þetta vigh wnnit a fiorda aare ok
      tuttugta
      > rikiss
      > > > > > ydars
      > > > > > > > min
      > > > > > > > > > herra. Var ok bodin ydr þæghn min herra ok
      frendonum
      > > > b/oe/tr
      > > > > > eftir
      > > > > > > > > > godra manna dome. Ok till sannenda at mit fengum
      eii
      > meiri
      > > > > > vissu
      > > > > > > > ok
      > > > > > > > > > marghir adrir godir men med okkr af þessu profue
      > settom
      > > > mit
      > > > > > okkorr
      > > > > > > > > > insigli firir þetta profs bref er gort var a
      deghi
      > ok are
      > > > sem
      > > > > > fyr
      > > > > > > > > > segir."
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > BTW, my nick 'Sjuler' is 16th century flavor of 14th
      > > > century
      > > > > > > > Sjugurðr
      > > > > > > > > > (Icelandic: Sigurður'). Modern Jamtlandic would
      > be 'Sjul'.
      > > > > > Note
      > > > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > > rð > l development here.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Compare the Eastern Jamtlandic mid 14th century
      > language
      > > > in
      > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > text
      > > > > > > > > > above with the following Up-Swedish text (Yngre
      > > > > > Västmannalagen)
      > > > > > > > from
      > > > > > > > > > early 14th century:
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > "Gæfwer faþer ællær moþer eno barne
      mera æn
      > andro. hafwe
      > > > > > mæþan þön
      > > > > > > > > > lifwa. oc æcke længær. siþan scal
      þæt til skift
      > bæra. mæþ
      > > > þera
      > > > > > > > manna
      > > > > > > > > > witnom þær hos waro þær faþer
      ællær moþer utt
      > gaff. oc
      > > > tolf
      > > > > > manna
      > > > > > > > > > eþe. oc siþan sin lot op bæra. hwart
      æfftær þy.
      > þæt ær
      > > > byrþom
      > > > > > til
      > > > > > > > > > boret. §.1. Fæstir man cono. oc wighis
      mæþ
      > hænne. ware
      > > > þæghar
      > > > > > full
      > > > > > > > > > giftning þera. swa som þön i sæng
      haffþen waret.
      > §.2.
      > > > Hafwe
      > > > > > alldre
      > > > > > > > > > ængen wizorþ at wita barn i giffta sæng."
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > One easily notices some differences in orthography,
      > but
      > > > the
      > > > > > > > samples
      > > > > > > > > > are too small to give real examples of differences.
      > One is
      > > > > > that
      > > > > > > > Old
      > > > > > > > > > Jamtlandic has 'þui' (dative of 'þat'
      =neut. 'it')
      > and
      > > > Old Up-
      > > > > > > > > > Swedish 'þy' (dative of 'þæt'
      =neut. 'it'),
      > though. Still
      > > > > > today we
      > > > > > > > > > notice this difference since Jamtlandic has 'di' and
      > > > > > Swedish 'ty'.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Today, Dalecarlian is the most arcane language of
      > Mainland
      > > > > > > > > > Scandinavia since Faroy Gutnish - in principle
      > unchanged
      > > > > > between
      > > > > > > > > > medieval age to 1900 - is extincted.
      > > > > > > > > > Jamtlandic is more or less like any Northern Swedish
      > > > dialect,
      > > > > > but
      > > > > > > > > > slightly more Norwegian/Tröndish and slightly
      less
      > arcane.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Currently, I find Estonian-Norse qite interesting.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > /Sjuler
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, erek gass
      > > > <egass@c...>
      > > > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps, it is important to remember the political
      > > > > > implications
      > > > > > > > > > applying to the growth of the Swedish Kingdom.
      Sweden
      > > > > > conquered
      > > > > > > > other
      > > > > > > > > > small domain around them and incorporated them,
      often
      > > > > > uneasily,
      > > > > > > > into
      > > > > > > > > > its "empire". It isn't only Dalska that
      > is "different".
      > > > So
      > > > > > is
      > > > > > > > > > Jamtish, Gutnish, asf. I refer you to the internet
      > urls
      > > > from
      > > > > > > > > > Jamtland. One contains a rather interesting
      history
      > of
      > > > how
      > > > > > that
      > > > > > > > > > (really Norwegian) province went through turmoil
      > during
      > > > the
      > > > > > > > medieval
      > > > > > > > > > period as it went back and forth, and describes the
      > > > suffering
      > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > > Jamtish population endured from the wars and
      > occupations.
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > Erek
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > --- "sjuler" <sjuler@y...> wrote:
      > > > > > > > > > > Konrad, what about those Norse dialects that were
      > not in
      > > > > > any way
      > > > > > > > > > > written down on paper? What did Norse spoken in
      > Northern
      > > > > > Sweden
      > > > > > > > > > sound
      > > > > > > > > > > like, for example? Of course, we don't know. My
      > point
      > > > here
      > > > > > is
      > > > > > > > that
      > > > > > > > > > a
      > > > > > > > > > > statement like "Fortunately, West Norse was the
      most
      > > > > > > > conservative
      > > > > > > > > > > branch, often markedly so." is based only on the
      > written
      > > > > > > > records.
      > > > > > > > > > > POerhaps Northern SCandinavians still spoke
      Viking
      > age
      > > > > > Norse in
      > > > > > > > > > > Medieval times. We don't know, and therefore one
      > should
      > > > > > restrict
      > > > > > > > > > > oneself to a statement like "Fortunately, West
      Norse
      > > > was the
      > > > > > > > most
      > > > > > > > > > > conservative branch amongst the known Norse
      > dialects,
      > > > often
      > > > > > > > > > markedly
      > > > > > > > > > > so."
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > BTW, since Icelandic did preserve vocabulary,
      > grammar
      > > > etc
      > > > > > in an
      > > > > > > > > > > almost uncanny way, but did not preserve stuff
      like
      > > > pitch
      > > > > > > > accent,
      > > > > > > > > > > short and over-long syllable lengths and nasal
      > vowels,
      > > > it
      > > > > > may be
      > > > > > > > > > > interesting to listen to a dialect that did. Here
      > are
      > > > some
      > > > > > sound
      > > > > > > > > > > samples:
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > http://www.unilang2.org/wiki2/wiki.phtml?
      > > > > > > > > > > title=Dalecarlian_sound_samples
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > Konrad, any comments on it?
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > /Sjuler
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson"
      > > > > > > > > > > <konrad_oddsson@y...> wrote:
      > > > > > > > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Berglaug
      > > > > > Ásmundardóttir
      > > > > > > > > > > > <berglauga@s...> wrote:
      > > > > > > > > > > > > Sjuler wrote: "As far as I know, the only
      sound
      > > > which
      > > > > > > > Icelandic
      > > > > > > > > > > has
      > > > > > > > > > > > preserved better than all other Scandinavian
      > dialects
      > > > is
      > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > þ-
      > > > > > > > > > > sound
      > > > > > > > > > > > (like 'th' in English 'thing')."
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't forget our lovely unvoiced resonants,
      > which
      > > > all
      > > > > > you
      > > > > > > > > > > > scandinavians seem to have lost in some freak
      > > > > > accident! ;)
      > > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > > unvoiced r, l, m, n are fun to say!
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > Lovely, I might add ;)
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > > and wouldn't ð also be a 'preserved
      sound'?
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, no doubt.
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > > i'm well aware that icelandic isn't anything
      > like
      > > > old
      > > > > > norse
      > > > > > > > > > was,
      > > > > > > > > > > > but really, it's mostly in the vowels and their
      > > > > > surroundings
      > > > > > > > > > (that
      > > > > > > > > > > > would be lenght of syllables), the consonant
      > changes
      > > > are
      > > > > > > > minimal.
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > I agree. ll, nn, g between vowels(segir), maybe
      > final
      > > > d/b
      > > > > > > > > > > (land/lamb)
      > > > > > > > > > > > and a few others. Not much of a change at all.
      > > > However,
      > > > > > as you
      > > > > > > > > > > point
      > > > > > > > > > > > out, the vowel-system is changed. I would say
      > quite
      > > > > > radically
      > > > > > > > so.
      > > > > > > > > > > If
      > > > > > > > > > > > we had a living speaker, however, I think we
      could
      > > > learn
      > > > > > it
      > > > > > > > > > without
      > > > > > > > > > > > having to learn the whole language over again.
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > (hmm.. same as with english,
      > > > > > > > > > > > > really, their vowels are all messy nowadays..
      > > > compared
      > > > > > to a
      > > > > > > > > > > > thousand years ago, at least)
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > English is nowhere near the same tongue it was a
      > > > thousand
      > > > > > > > years
      > > > > > > > > > > ago.
      > > > > > > > > > > > The price of an empire, I suppose.
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > I think what students need to understand about
      old
      > > > > > > > pronunciation
      > > > > > > > > > is
      > > > > > > > > > > > this: there were many 'old norse' languages and
      > just
      > > > as
      > > > > > many
      > > > > > > > ways
      > > > > > > > > > > of
      > > > > > > > > > > > pronouncing them. In Sweden, for instance, we
      had
      > the
      > > > > > > > Gautlandic
      > > > > > > > > > of
      > > > > > > > > > > > east and west, Swedish proper, Gutnish and
      > others. In
      > > > my
      > > > > > > > opinion,
      > > > > > > > > > > it
      > > > > > > > > > > > was the Old Gutnish that was the 'jewel of the
      > east' -
      > > > > > > > > > > conservative
      > > > > > > > > > > > like the oldest West Norse, but with a radically
      > > > differing
      > > > > > > > > > > phonology
      > > > > > > > > > > > and even usage. Danish was also markedly
      > different in
      > > > > > > > > > > pronunciation,
      > > > > > > > > > > > and to some extent in usage and vocabulary,
      from
      > West
      > > > > > Norse.
      > > > > > > > The
      > > > > > > > > > > way
      > > > > > > > > > > > I see it, one of the main advantages of old West
      > > > Norse is
      > > > > > > > that it
      > > > > > > > > > > is
      > > > > > > > > > > > considered to have been very uniform (einsleit).
      > > > Because
      > > > > > > > Faroese
      > > > > > > > > > > and
      > > > > > > > > > > > Icelandic were once the same language as West
      > > > Norwegian,
      > > > > > > > matching
      > > > > > > > > > > on
      > > > > > > > > > > > vocabulary and usage as well, we can get a
      fairly
      > good
      > > > > > idea of
      > > > > > > > > > how
      > > > > > > > > > > > it was pronounced by comparing the how these
      > tongues
      > > > are
      > > > > > > > > > pronounced
      > > > > > > > > > > > today and doing the math. Although it had the
      most
      > > > > > complicated
      > > > > > > > > > > vowel-
      > > > > > > > > > > > system (through more mutations) and the least
      > > > speakers of
      > > > > > any
      > > > > > > > > > > nordic
      > > > > > > > > > > > tongue from the 9-10 centuries, West Norse is
      now
      > by
      > > > far
      > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > > > easiest
      > > > > > > > > > > > tongue to reconstruct, as there is a firm basis
      > for
      > > > > > > > comparison.
      > > > > > > > > > > This
      > > > > > > > > > > > is ironic, perhaps, given the numerical
      > inferiority ;)
      > > > > > > > > > Fortunately,
      > > > > > > > > > > > West Norse was the most conservative branch,
      often
      > > > > > markedly
      > > > > > > > so.
      > > > > > > > > > > Only
      > > > > > > > > > > > Gutnish equals its antiquity. Shamefully,
      Gutnish
      > was
      > > > > > > > neglected,
      > > > > > > > > > > set
      > > > > > > > > > > > out to die and never used as a literary tongue.
      > Our
      > > > only
      > > > > > book
      > > > > > > > in
      > > > > > > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > > > > tongue was written in the early 14th century.
      > > > > > Fortunately, it
      > > > > > > > is
      > > > > > > > > > > old
      > > > > > > > > > > > enough to give us some idea of the tongue in its
      > > > golden
      > > > > > age. I
      > > > > > > > > > > think
      > > > > > > > > > > > we are very lucky, on the other hand, that Old
      > > > Icelandic
      > > > > > was
      > > > > > > > used
      > > > > > > > > > > as
      > > > > > > > > > > > a literary tongue in the west as early as 1100-
      > 1130,
      > > > when
      > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > > > tongue
      > > > > > > > > > > > was only slightly changed from its golden age.
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > Vesið ér heil (pronun.:
      uesið êr
      > hæil (short
      > > > æ+i -
      > > > > > > > between
      > > > > > > > > > ei &
      > > > > > > > > > > ai ;)
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > Konrad
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > Regards,
      > > > > > > > > > > > Konrad
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > > Berglaug
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off
      an
      > e-
      > > > mail
      > > > > > to:
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      _____________________________________________________________
      > > > > > > > > > > Free email, travel forums, user reviews, maps -
      all
      > at
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      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an
      e-
      > mail
      > > > > > > > > > to:
      > > > > > > > > >
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      > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-
      mail
      > > > > > > > to:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
      > > > > >
      > > > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail
      > > > > > to:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
      > > >
      > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
      > > >
      > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail
      > > > to:
      > > >
      > > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
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      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
      > >
      > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
      > >
      > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
      > >
      > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > _____________________________________________________________
      > > Free email, travel forums, user reviews, maps - all at
      > > http://www.caribbean-on-line.com
      >
      >
      >
      > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
      >
      > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
      >
      > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
      >
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    • pdhanssen@aol.com
      Good luck, og til lykke, Kenneth. I went to graduate school at the University of Texas (aerospace engineering) between 1978 and 1983. I remember seeing an Old
      Message 34 of 34 , Oct 13, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Good luck, og til lykke, Kenneth.

        I went to graduate school at the University of Texas (aerospace engineering) between 1978 and 1983.
        I remember seeing an Old Swedish reader in the library there,
        and copying the mini-dictionary in the back of the book.
        Right now, my notebook is in storage,
        and I wish I could remember the author/editor/publisher of that reader.
        Does this ring a bell with anyone?




        In a message dated 10/12/2004 10:39:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Kenneth Christensen <ragnarkraki@...> writes:

        >Thank you very much.  I'm planning on transfering to UCR or UCLA.  Both have excelent Germanic studies programs.  I happen to be in Jr. College as a Germanic Studies major.
        >
        >Kenneth
        >
        >akoddsson <konrad_oddsson@...> wrote:
        >
        >--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Christensen
        ><ragnarkraki@y...> wrote:
        >> Could any of you recomend any Old Dansk dictionaries to me.  I
        >can't find one anywhere.
        >
        >I recall that I have seen one. Go to the major universities and ask,
        >especially the ones which have big Germanic linguistics departments.
        >I have also seen (held in my hand and examined) and Old Swedish one.
        >I also recall hearing about a Swedish one online, but have not seen
        >it myself. I once saved and printed a short Old Gutnish dictionary
        >that I found online. The East Norse branch had a lot more variation
        >than the West Norse. In the East we talk about related languages, in
        >the West about one tongue. The reason is that, in linguistic terms,
        >Old Norwegian (especially western), Old Icelandic and Old Faroese are
        >the same language, as Norse in Greenland, Shetlands, etc. would also
        >have been. The differences were so insignificant that only the most
        >specialized scholars are even interested in them. They are extremely
        >minor dialect-variations that hardly mattered when the langauge was
        >still universal in the West. However, you will see some substantial
        >difference between the Eastern branches, as well as between any one
        >of them and the West, even if they were still largely intelligible to
        >one another - in other words, even if they were still 'common' Norse
        >and not yet 'fully' separate languages, like Chinese and German ;)
        >Good luck with your search.
        >
        >Konrad
        >
        >> Kenneth
        >>
        >>            
        >> ---------------------------------
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