Re: [norse_course] Sv: Re: Sv: Pronounciation of old norse (forgotten arcane dialects?)
- Takk, Sjuler.
I have bought a copy of Bo Oscarssons Jamtska Orlboka.
Your explanation below of " rð > l " explains why the dictionary is called " Orlboka " instead of " Orðboka "
as I would have expected.
In modern Faeroese, "Sigurður" has become "Sjurður".
I am enjoying very much the internet pages about the Dalecarlian language.
Sjuler, are you writing these pages?
Last year, in the spring and summer, I collected a large number of internet references to someone's work on producing a grammar and on-line textbook on the Jamtska language.
It is great that someone is preserving these languages.
Can Gutniska be recovered?
Med vennligste hilsener,
In a message dated 3/14/2004 3:35:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, sjuler@... writes:
> I know the history of Jamtland since I am from the province myself
> (and I know Bo Oscarsson, whose web pages -
> http://w1.635.telia.com/~u63501054/ -
> I assume you are referring to).
> Jamtlandic used to be a pure Western Norse dialect, and my ancestors
> spread Western Norse as far east as into Finland (province of
> Austrbotn). No far from the Baltic Sea, with Austrbotn not far away
> on the other side of the sea, people actually spoke like this in mid
> 14th century:
> "Vyrduleghum herra sinum herra Magnusi med guds nad
> Noregs Swya ok Skane konongi h/oe/yllsa Lafrandz Gunnasson logmader
> j Jamtalande ok Siugurder Endridar sson vmbods madr Biarna Erlings-
> sonar j fyrnemfdo landæ q. g. ok sina audmiuka skylldugha þ/oe/nosto.
> yder vilium mit kunnigt gera at eftir bode ok brefui ydru min herra
> tokom mit prof a R/oe/fsundum j gilda skalanum a manadagin nesta ef-
> tir Bonofacii m/oe/sso a fimta are ok tuttugta rikis ydars min herra
> vm aftak *Hunælfs Alfuers sson er Olafuer Biarna sson vard aat skada
> vfirir syniu varo þar þa erfwingiar hins dauda logligha till stemfdir.
> Var þat aat vpphafue vidratto þæira at Olafuer ok Hunæfuer varo til
> gæst hia Jone iambr hafde þa Hunæfuer fyrnemfdr eina aar ok stak
> Olaf j briostid firir ofwan geirwortuna so at Olafuer var lengi krankr
> af. sagde þa Hunæfuer at hann vildi eii gort hafua honom en Olafuer
> suarade. þat venter ek at þu gerdir þat firir engum ilvilia. baro
> þetta ok suoro Biorn iambr ok Jon Þoriss sson at so var ord eftir orde
> sem nu er sagt. stod þetta þæira millium ual vm fim aar at þæir varo
> ekki sattir en fim vettrum lidnum komo þæir badir saman til
> R/oe/fsunda ok var þa Olafuer j kirkiugardenum kom þa Hunæfuer
> gangande j kirkiu garden ok talade till Olafs laat eii illa Olafuer
> min þar sem þik þr/oe/ngir enki vm. Þui nest stak Olafuer oftnemfdan
> Hunef j briostid med knifue ok sagde so. haf þetta firir hitt er
> fyrri var. lifdi Hunæfuer nokora dagha eftir þat en þo do hann þar
> af. suoro þetta Besse Berþors sson ok Ketill Skeggia sson at so var
> sem nu er sagt. Tokom mit ok viglysingar vitni þæira manna er so
> heita ok so suoro a bok Gregorius Jorundar sson ok Helgho Vestars
> dottor at Olafuer oftnemfdr kom till þæira samd/oe/ghers sem hann
> hafde þat vigh wnnit ok lysti firir þæim at þat sem Hunæfuer fæk af
> mik huart sem hann fær þar af bott ædr bana þa gerdi þat engin vttan
> ek. var þetta vigh wnnit a fiorda aare ok tuttugta rikiss ydars min
> herra. Var ok bodin ydr þæghn min herra ok frendonum b/oe/tr eftir
> godra manna dome. Ok till sannenda at mit fengum eii meiri vissu ok
> marghir adrir godir men med okkr af þessu profue settom mit okkorr
> insigli firir þetta profs bref er gort var a deghi ok are sem fyr
> BTW, my nick 'Sjuler' is 16th century flavor of 14th century Sjugurðr
> (Icelandic: Sigurður'). Modern Jamtlandic would be 'Sjul'. Note the
> rð > l development here.
> Compare the Eastern Jamtlandic mid 14th century language in the text
> above with the following Up-Swedish text (Yngre Västmannalagen) from
> early 14th century:
> "Gæfwer faþer ællær moþer eno barne mera æn andro. hafwe mæþan þön
> lifwa. oc æcke længær. siþan scal þæt til skift bæra. mæþ þera manna
> witnom þær hos waro þær faþer ællær moþer utt gaff. oc tolf manna
> eþe. oc siþan sin lot op bæra. hwart æfftær þy. þæt ær byrþom til
> boret. §.1. Fæstir man cono. oc wighis mæþ hænne. ware þæghar full
> giftning þera. swa som þön i sæng haffþen waret. §.2. Hafwe alldre
> ængen wizorþ at wita barn i giffta sæng."
> One easily notices some differences in orthography, but the samples
> are too small to give real examples of differences. One is that Old
> Jamtlandic has 'þui' (dative of 'þat' =neut. 'it') and Old Up-
> Swedish 'þy' (dative of 'þæt' =neut. 'it'), though. Still today we
> notice this difference since Jamtlandic has 'di' and Swedish 'ty'.
> Today, Dalecarlian is the most arcane language of Mainland
> Scandinavia since Faroy Gutnish - in principle unchanged between
> medieval age to 1900 - is extincted.
> Jamtlandic is more or less like any Northern Swedish dialect, but
> slightly more Norwegian/Tröndish and slightly less arcane.
> Currently, I find Estonian-Norse qite interesting.
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, erek gass <egass@c...> wrote:
> > Perhaps, it is important to remember the political implications
> applying to the growth of the Swedish Kingdom. Sweden conquered other
> small domain around them and incorporated them, often uneasily, into
> its "empire". It isn't only Dalska that is "different". So is
> Jamtish, Gutnish, asf. I refer you to the internet urls from
> Jamtland. One contains a rather interesting history of how that
> (really Norwegian) province went through turmoil during the medieval
> period as it went back and forth, and describes the suffering the
> Jamtish population endured from the wars and occupations.
> > Erek
> > --- "sjuler" <sjuler@y...> wrote:
> > Konrad, what about those Norse dialects that were not in any way
> > written down on paper? What did Norse spoken in Northern Sweden
> > like, for example? Of course, we don't know. My point here is that
> > statement like "Fortunately, West Norse was the most conservative
> > branch, often markedly so." is based only on the written records.
> > POerhaps Northern SCandinavians still spoke Viking age Norse in
> > Medieval times. We don't know, and therefore one should restrict
> > oneself to a statement like "Fortunately, West Norse was the most
> > conservative branch amongst the known Norse dialects, often
> > so."
> > BTW, since Icelandic did preserve vocabulary, grammar etc in an
> > almost uncanny way, but did not preserve stuff like pitch accent,
> > short and over-long syllable lengths and nasal vowels, it may be
> > interesting to listen to a dialect that did. Here are some sound
> > samples:
> > http://www.unilang2.org/wiki2/wiki.phtml?
> > title=Dalecarlian_sound_samples
> > Konrad, any comments on it?
> > /Sjuler
> > --- In email@example.com, "akoddsson"
> > <konrad_oddsson@y...> wrote:
> > > --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Berglaug ÃsmundardÃ³ttir
> > > <berglauga@s...> wrote:
> > > > Sjuler wrote: "As far as I know, the only sound which Icelandic
> > has
> > > preserved better than all other Scandinavian dialects is the Ã¾-
> > sound
> > > (like 'th' in English 'thing')."
> > >
> > > > Don't forget our lovely unvoiced resonants, which all you
> > > scandinavians seem to have lost in some freak accident! ;)
> > > >
> > > > unvoiced r, l, m, n are fun to say!
> > >
> > > Lovely, I might add ;)
> > >
> > > > and wouldn't Ã° also be a 'preserved sound'?
> > >
> > > Yes, no doubt.
> > >
> > > > i'm well aware that icelandic isn't anything like old norse
> > > but really, it's mostly in the vowels and their surroundings
> > > would be lenght of syllables), the consonant changes are minimal.
> > >
> > > I agree. ll, nn, g between vowels(segir), maybe final d/b
> > (land/lamb)
> > > and a few others. Not much of a change at all. However, as you
> > point
> > > out, the vowel-system is changed. I would say quite radically so.
> > If
> > > we had a living speaker, however, I think we could learn it
> > > having to learn the whole language over again.
> > >
> > > (hmm.. same as with english,
> > > > really, their vowels are all messy nowadays.. compared to a
> > > thousand years ago, at least)
> > >
> > > English is nowhere near the same tongue it was a thousand years
> > ago.
> > > The price of an empire, I suppose.
> > >
> > > I think what students need to understand about old pronunciation
> > > this: there were many 'old norse' languages and just as many ways
> > of
> > > pronouncing them. In Sweden, for instance, we had the Gautlandic
> > > east and west, Swedish proper, Gutnish and others. In my opinion,
> > it
> > > was the Old Gutnish that was the 'jewel of the east' -
> > conservative
> > > like the oldest West Norse, but with a radically differing
> > phonology
> > > and even usage. Danish was also markedly different in
> > pronunciation,
> > > and to some extent in usage and vocabulary, from West Norse. The
> > way
> > > I see it, one of the main advantages of old West Norse is that it
> > is
> > > considered to have been very uniform (einsleit). Because Faroese
> > and
> > > Icelandic were once the same language as West Norwegian, matching
> > on
> > > vocabulary and usage as well, we can get a fairly good idea of
> > > it was pronounced by comparing the how these tongues are
> > > today and doing the math. Although it had the most complicated
> > vowel-
> > > system (through more mutations) and the least speakers of any
> > nordic
> > > tongue from the 9-10 centuries, West Norse is now by far the
> > easiest
> > > tongue to reconstruct, as there is a firm basis for comparison.
> > This
> > > is ironic, perhaps, given the numerical inferiority ;)
> > > West Norse was the most conservative branch, often markedly so.
> > Only
> > > Gutnish equals its antiquity. Shamefully, Gutnish was neglected,
> > set
> > > out to die and never used as a literary tongue. Our only book in
> > the
> > > tongue was written in the early 14th century. Fortunately, it is
> > old
> > > enough to give us some idea of the tongue in its golden age. I
> > think
> > > we are very lucky, on the other hand, that Old Icelandic was used
> > as
> > > a literary tongue in the west as early as 1100-1130, when the
> > tongue
> > > was only slightly changed from its golden age.
> > >
> > > VesiÃ° Ã©r heil (pronun.: uesiÃ° Ãªr hÃ¦il (short Ã¦+i - between
> ei &
> > ai ;)
> > >
> > > Konrad
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Konrad
> > >
> > >
> > > > Berglaug
> > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
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- Good luck, og til lykke, Kenneth.
I went to graduate school at the University of Texas (aerospace engineering) between 1978 and 1983.
I remember seeing an Old Swedish reader in the library there,
and copying the mini-dictionary in the back of the book.
Right now, my notebook is in storage,
and I wish I could remember the author/editor/publisher of that reader.
Does this ring a bell with anyone?
In a message dated 10/12/2004 10:39:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Kenneth Christensen <ragnarkraki@...> writes:
>Thank you very much. I'm planning on transfering to UCR or UCLA. Both have excelent Germanic studies programs. I happen to be in Jr. College as a Germanic Studies major.
>akoddsson <konrad_oddsson@...> wrote:
>--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Kenneth Christensen
>> Could any of you recomend any Old Dansk dictionaries to me. I
>can't find one anywhere.
>I recall that I have seen one. Go to the major universities and ask,
>especially the ones which have big Germanic linguistics departments.
>I have also seen (held in my hand and examined) and Old Swedish one.
>I also recall hearing about a Swedish one online, but have not seen
>it myself. I once saved and printed a short Old Gutnish dictionary
>that I found online. The East Norse branch had a lot more variation
>than the West Norse. In the East we talk about related languages, in
>the West about one tongue. The reason is that, in linguistic terms,
>Old Norwegian (especially western), Old Icelandic and Old Faroese are
>the same language, as Norse in Greenland, Shetlands, etc. would also
>have been. The differences were so insignificant that only the most
>specialized scholars are even interested in them. They are extremely
>minor dialect-variations that hardly mattered when the langauge was
>still universal in the West. However, you will see some substantial
>difference between the Eastern branches, as well as between any one
>of them and the West, even if they were still largely intelligible to
>one another - in other words, even if they were still 'common' Norse
>and not yet 'fully' separate languages, like Chinese and German ;)
>Good luck with your search.
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