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Re: [norse_course] Sv: Re: Sv: Pronounciation of old norse (forgotten arcane dialects?)

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  • pdhanssen@aol.com
    Takk, Sjuler. I have bought a copy of Bo Oscarssons Jamtska Orlboka. Your explanation below of rð l explains why the dictionary is called Orlboka
    Message 1 of 34 , Mar 16, 2004
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      Takk, Sjuler.
      I have bought a copy of Bo Oscarssons Jamtska Orlboka.
      Your explanation below of " rð > l " explains why the dictionary is called " Orlboka " instead of " Orðboka "
      as I would have expected.

      In modern Faeroese, "Sigurður" has become "Sjurður".

      I am enjoying very much the internet pages about the Dalecarlian language.
      Sjuler, are you writing these pages?

      Last year, in the spring and summer, I collected a large number of internet references to someone's work on producing a grammar and on-line textbook on the Jamtska language.
      It is great that someone is preserving these languages.
      Can Gutniska be recovered?

      Takk, Sjuler.
      Med vennligste hilsener,
      Paul Hansen.




      In a message dated 3/14/2004 3:35:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, sjuler@... writes:

      >
      >
      > Hi,
      >
      > I know the history of Jamtland since I am from the province myself
      > (and I know Bo Oscarsson, whose web pages -
      > http://w1.635.telia.com/~u63501054/ -
      > I assume you are referring to).
      > Jamtlandic used to be a pure Western Norse dialect, and my ancestors
      > spread Western Norse as far east as into Finland (province of
      > Austrbotn). No far from the Baltic Sea, with Austrbotn not far away
      > on the other side of the sea, people actually spoke like this in mid
      > 14th century:
      >
      > "Vyrduleghum herra sinum herra Magnusi med guds nad
      > Noregs Swya ok Skane konongi h/oe/yllsa Lafrandz Gunnasson logmader
      > j Jamtalande ok Siugurder Endridar sson vmbods madr Biarna Erlings-
      > sonar j fyrnemfdo landæ q. g. ok sina audmiuka skylldugha þ/oe/nosto.
      > yder vilium mit kunnigt gera at eftir bode ok brefui ydru min herra
      > tokom mit prof a R/oe/fsundum j gilda skalanum a manadagin nesta ef-
      > tir Bonofacii m/oe/sso a fimta are ok tuttugta rikis ydars min herra
      > vm aftak *Hunælfs Alfuers sson er Olafuer Biarna sson vard aat skada
      > vfirir syniu varo þar þa erfwingiar hins dauda logligha till stemfdir.
      > Var þat aat vpphafue vidratto þæira at Olafuer ok Hunæfuer varo til
      > gæst hia Jone iambr hafde þa Hunæfuer fyrnemfdr eina aar ok stak
      > Olaf j briostid firir ofwan geirwortuna so at Olafuer var lengi krankr
      > af. sagde þa Hunæfuer at hann vildi eii gort hafua honom en Olafuer
      > suarade. þat venter ek at þu gerdir þat firir engum ilvilia. baro
      > þetta ok suoro Biorn iambr ok Jon Þoriss sson at so var ord eftir orde
      > sem nu er sagt. stod þetta þæira millium ual vm fim aar at þæir varo
      > ekki sattir en fim vettrum lidnum komo þæir badir saman til
      > R/oe/fsunda ok var þa Olafuer j kirkiugardenum kom þa Hunæfuer
      > gangande j kirkiu garden ok talade till Olafs laat eii illa Olafuer
      > min þar sem þik þr/oe/ngir enki vm. Þui nest stak Olafuer oftnemfdan
      > Hunef j briostid med knifue ok sagde so. haf þetta firir hitt er
      > fyrri var. lifdi Hunæfuer nokora dagha eftir þat en þo do hann þar
      > af. suoro þetta Besse Berþors sson ok Ketill Skeggia sson at so var
      > sem nu er sagt. Tokom mit ok viglysingar vitni þæira manna er so
      > heita ok so suoro a bok Gregorius Jorundar sson ok Helgho Vestars
      > dottor at Olafuer oftnemfdr kom till þæira samd/oe/ghers sem hann
      > hafde þat vigh wnnit ok lysti firir þæim at þat sem Hunæfuer fæk af
      > mik huart sem hann fær þar af bott ædr bana þa gerdi þat engin vttan
      > ek. var þetta vigh wnnit a fiorda aare ok tuttugta rikiss ydars min
      > herra. Var ok bodin ydr þæghn min herra ok frendonum b/oe/tr eftir
      > godra manna dome. Ok till sannenda at mit fengum eii meiri vissu ok
      > marghir adrir godir men med okkr af þessu profue settom mit okkorr
      > insigli firir þetta profs bref er gort var a deghi ok are sem fyr
      > segir."
      >
      >
      > BTW, my nick 'Sjuler' is 16th century flavor of 14th century Sjugurðr
      > (Icelandic: Sigurður'). Modern Jamtlandic would be 'Sjul'. Note the
      > rð > l development here.
      >
      > Compare the Eastern Jamtlandic mid 14th century language in the text
      > above with the following Up-Swedish text (Yngre Västmannalagen) from
      > early 14th century:
      >
      > "Gæfwer faþer ællær moþer eno barne mera æn andro. hafwe mæþan þön
      > lifwa. oc æcke længær. siþan scal þæt til skift bæra. mæþ þera manna
      > witnom þær hos waro þær faþer ællær moþer utt gaff. oc tolf manna
      > eþe. oc siþan sin lot op bæra. hwart æfftær þy. þæt ær byrþom til
      > boret. §.1. Fæstir man cono. oc wighis mæþ hænne. ware þæghar full
      > giftning þera. swa som þön i sæng haffþen waret. §.2. Hafwe alldre
      > ængen wizorþ at wita barn i giffta sæng."
      >
      > One easily notices some differences in orthography, but the samples
      > are too small to give real examples of differences. One is that Old
      > Jamtlandic has 'þui' (dative of 'þat' =neut. 'it') and Old Up-
      > Swedish 'þy' (dative of 'þæt' =neut. 'it'), though. Still today we
      > notice this difference since Jamtlandic has 'di' and Swedish 'ty'.
      >
      > Today, Dalecarlian is the most arcane language of Mainland
      > Scandinavia since Faroy Gutnish - in principle unchanged between
      > medieval age to 1900 - is extincted.
      > Jamtlandic is more or less like any Northern Swedish dialect, but
      > slightly more Norwegian/Tröndish and slightly less arcane.
      >
      > Currently, I find Estonian-Norse qite interesting.
      >
      > /Sjuler
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, erek gass <egass@c...> wrote:
      > > Perhaps, it is important to remember the political implications
      > applying to the growth of the Swedish Kingdom. Sweden conquered other
      > small domain around them and incorporated them, often uneasily, into
      > its "empire". It isn't only Dalska that is "different". So is
      > Jamtish, Gutnish, asf. I refer you to the internet urls from
      > Jamtland. One contains a rather interesting history of how that
      > (really Norwegian) province went through turmoil during the medieval
      > period as it went back and forth, and describes the suffering the
      > Jamtish population endured from the wars and occupations.
      > >
      > > Erek
      > >
      > >
      > > --- "sjuler" <sjuler@y...> wrote:
      > > Konrad, what about those Norse dialects that were not in any way
      > > written down on paper? What did Norse spoken in Northern Sweden
      > sound
      > > like, for example? Of course, we don't know. My point here is that
      > a
      > > statement like "Fortunately, West Norse was the most conservative
      > > branch, often markedly so." is based only on the written records.
      > > POerhaps Northern SCandinavians still spoke Viking age Norse in
      > > Medieval times. We don't know, and therefore one should restrict
      > > oneself to a statement like "Fortunately, West Norse was the most
      > > conservative branch amongst the known Norse dialects, often
      > markedly
      > > so."
      > >
      > > BTW, since Icelandic did preserve vocabulary, grammar etc in an
      > > almost uncanny way, but did not preserve stuff like pitch accent,
      > > short and over-long syllable lengths and nasal vowels, it may be
      > > interesting to listen to a dialect that did. Here are some sound
      > > samples:
      > >
      > > http://www.unilang2.org/wiki2/wiki.phtml?
      > > title=Dalecarlian_sound_samples
      > >
      > > Konrad, any comments on it?
      > >
      > > /Sjuler
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson"
      > > <konrad_oddsson@y...> wrote:
      > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Berglaug Ásmundardóttir
      > > > <berglauga@s...> wrote:
      > > > > Sjuler wrote: "As far as I know, the only sound which Icelandic
      > > has
      > > > preserved better than all other Scandinavian dialects is the þ-
      > > sound
      > > > (like 'th' in English 'thing')."
      > > >
      > > > > Don't forget our lovely unvoiced resonants, which all you
      > > > scandinavians seem to have lost in some freak accident! ;)
      > > > >
      > > > > unvoiced r, l, m, n are fun to say!
      > > >
      > > > Lovely, I might add ;)
      > > >
      > > > > and wouldn't ð also be a 'preserved sound'?
      > > >
      > > > Yes, no doubt.
      > > >
      > > > > i'm well aware that icelandic isn't anything like old norse
      > was,
      > > > but really, it's mostly in the vowels and their surroundings
      > (that
      > > > would be lenght of syllables), the consonant changes are minimal.
      > > >
      > > > I agree. ll, nn, g between vowels(segir), maybe final d/b
      > > (land/lamb)
      > > > and a few others. Not much of a change at all. However, as you
      > > point
      > > > out, the vowel-system is changed. I would say quite radically so.
      > > If
      > > > we had a living speaker, however, I think we could learn it
      > without
      > > > having to learn the whole language over again.
      > > >
      > > > (hmm.. same as with english,
      > > > > really, their vowels are all messy nowadays.. compared to a
      > > > thousand years ago, at least)
      > > >
      > > > English is nowhere near the same tongue it was a thousand years
      > > ago.
      > > > The price of an empire, I suppose.
      > > >
      > > > I think what students need to understand about old pronunciation
      > is
      > > > this: there were many 'old norse' languages and just as many ways
      > > of
      > > > pronouncing them. In Sweden, for instance, we had the Gautlandic
      > of
      > > > east and west, Swedish proper, Gutnish and others. In my opinion,
      > > it
      > > > was the Old Gutnish that was the 'jewel of the east' -
      > > conservative
      > > > like the oldest West Norse, but with a radically differing
      > > phonology
      > > > and even usage. Danish was also markedly different in
      > > pronunciation,
      > > > and to some extent in usage and vocabulary, from West Norse. The
      > > way
      > > > I see it, one of the main advantages of old West Norse is that it
      > > is
      > > > considered to have been very uniform (einsleit). Because Faroese
      > > and
      > > > Icelandic were once the same language as West Norwegian, matching
      > > on
      > > > vocabulary and usage as well, we can get a fairly good idea of
      > how
      > > > it was pronounced by comparing the how these tongues are
      > pronounced
      > > > today and doing the math. Although it had the most complicated
      > > vowel-
      > > > system (through more mutations) and the least speakers of any
      > > nordic
      > > > tongue from the 9-10 centuries, West Norse is now by far the
      > > easiest
      > > > tongue to reconstruct, as there is a firm basis for comparison.
      > > This
      > > > is ironic, perhaps, given the numerical inferiority ;)
      > Fortunately,
      > > > West Norse was the most conservative branch, often markedly so.
      > > Only
      > > > Gutnish equals its antiquity. Shamefully, Gutnish was neglected,
      > > set
      > > > out to die and never used as a literary tongue. Our only book in
      > > the
      > > > tongue was written in the early 14th century. Fortunately, it is
      > > old
      > > > enough to give us some idea of the tongue in its golden age. I
      > > think
      > > > we are very lucky, on the other hand, that Old Icelandic was used
      > > as
      > > > a literary tongue in the west as early as 1100-1130, when the
      > > tongue
      > > > was only slightly changed from its golden age.
      > > >
      > > > Vesið ér heil (pronun.: uesið êr hæil (short æ+i - between
      > ei &
      > > ai ;)
      > > >
      > > > Konrad
      > > >
      > > > Regards,
      > > > Konrad
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > Berglaug
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
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      > >
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      > >
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      > >
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    • pdhanssen@aol.com
      Good luck, og til lykke, Kenneth. I went to graduate school at the University of Texas (aerospace engineering) between 1978 and 1983. I remember seeing an Old
      Message 34 of 34 , Oct 13, 2004
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        Good luck, og til lykke, Kenneth.

        I went to graduate school at the University of Texas (aerospace engineering) between 1978 and 1983.
        I remember seeing an Old Swedish reader in the library there,
        and copying the mini-dictionary in the back of the book.
        Right now, my notebook is in storage,
        and I wish I could remember the author/editor/publisher of that reader.
        Does this ring a bell with anyone?




        In a message dated 10/12/2004 10:39:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Kenneth Christensen <ragnarkraki@...> writes:

        >Thank you very much.  I'm planning on transfering to UCR or UCLA.  Both have excelent Germanic studies programs.  I happen to be in Jr. College as a Germanic Studies major.
        >
        >Kenneth
        >
        >akoddsson <konrad_oddsson@...> wrote:
        >
        >--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Christensen
        ><ragnarkraki@y...> wrote:
        >> Could any of you recomend any Old Dansk dictionaries to me.  I
        >can't find one anywhere.
        >
        >I recall that I have seen one. Go to the major universities and ask,
        >especially the ones which have big Germanic linguistics departments.
        >I have also seen (held in my hand and examined) and Old Swedish one.
        >I also recall hearing about a Swedish one online, but have not seen
        >it myself. I once saved and printed a short Old Gutnish dictionary
        >that I found online. The East Norse branch had a lot more variation
        >than the West Norse. In the East we talk about related languages, in
        >the West about one tongue. The reason is that, in linguistic terms,
        >Old Norwegian (especially western), Old Icelandic and Old Faroese are
        >the same language, as Norse in Greenland, Shetlands, etc. would also
        >have been. The differences were so insignificant that only the most
        >specialized scholars are even interested in them. They are extremely
        >minor dialect-variations that hardly mattered when the langauge was
        >still universal in the West. However, you will see some substantial
        >difference between the Eastern branches, as well as between any one
        >of them and the West, even if they were still largely intelligible to
        >one another - in other words, even if they were still 'common' Norse
        >and not yet 'fully' separate languages, like Chinese and German ;)
        >Good luck with your search.
        >
        >Konrad
        >
        >> Kenneth
        >>
        >>            
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