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Re: [norse_course] Hrafnkel 152-176 / Laurel

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  • Laurel Bradshaw
    Hvat mun garprinn vilja, er hann er heim kominn? what - should - the gallant fellow - wish - that - he - towards home - came What should the gallant fellow
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 30, 2004
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      'Hvat mun garprinn vilja, er hann er heim kominn?'
      what - should - the gallant fellow - wish - that - he - towards home - came
      "What should the gallant fellow want, that he has come back home?"
       
      segir Hrafnkell.  'Eigi mun þat góðu gegna.'
      says - Hrafnkell - not - must - that - good - bode
      said Hrafnkel.  "That doesn't bode well."
       
       
      Síðan gekk hann út ok sér Freyfaxa ok mælti við hann:
      then - went - he - out - and - sees - Freyfaxi - and - says - to - him
      Then he went out and saw Freyfaxi, and said to him:
       
      'Illa þykkir mér, at þú ert þann veg til gõrr, fóstri minn,
      unpleasing - it seems - to me - as regards - you - are - that - manner - treated - fosterling - of mine
      "I am displeased at how you have been treated, my foster-son,
       
      en heima hafðir þú vit þitt, er þú sagðir mér til,
      but - at home - had - you - wits - your - when - you - told - me - concerning this
      but you had your wits about you when you told me of this.
       
      ok skal þessa hefnt verða.  Far þú til liðs þíns.'
      and - shall - this - avenged - be - go - you - to - herd - your
      This will be avenged.  Go to your herd."
       
       
      En hann gekk þegar upp eptir dalnum til stóðs síns.
      and - he - went - at once - up - along - the valley - to - stud - his
      And he went immediately up the valley to his stud.
       
       
      Hrafnkell ferr í rekkju sína um kveldit
      Hrafnkell - went - to - bed - his - in - the evening 
      Hrafnkel went to (his) bed that evening
       
      ok svaf af um nóttina.
      and - slept - through - the night
      and slept through the night.
       
      En um morguninn lét hann taka sér hest
      and - in - the morning - let - he - take - himself - a horse
      In the morning, he had a horse taken
       
      ok leggja á sõðul ok ríðr upp til sels.
      and - put - on - a saddle - and - rode - up - to - sheiling
      and saddled for him, and rode up to the sheiling.
       
      Hann ríðr í blám klæðum.
      he - rode - in - black - clothing
      He rode wearing black clothes.
       
      Øxi hafði hann í hendi, en ekki fleira vápna.
      an ax - had - he - in - hand - but - no - more - weapons
      He had an ax in his hand, but no other weapons.
       
      Þá hafði Einarr nýrekit fé í kvíar.
      then - had - Einarr - newly driven - livestock - into - sheepfold
      Einar had just driven the sheep into the fold.
       
      Hann lá á kvíagarðinum ok talði fé,
      he - was lying - on - the sheepfold wall - and - counting - sheep
      He was lying on the wall of the sheepfold, counting the sheep, 
       
      en konur váru at mjólka.
      and - women - were - at - milking
      and the women were milking.
       
       
      Þau heilsuðu honum.
      they - greeted - him (Hrafnkell)
      They greeted Hrafnkel.
       
       
      Hann spurði, hversu þeim fœri (foeri) at.
      he - asked - how - to them - were going - concerning
      He asked how things had been going for them.
       
       
      Einarr svarar:  'Illa hefir mér at farit,
      Einarr - answered - unpleasing - has - to me - concerning - faring
      Einar answered:  "It hasn't been going well for me,
       
      því at vant varð þriggja tiga ásauðar nær viku,
      because - lacking - were - three - of ten - ewes - nearly - a week
      because thirty ewes were missing for nearly a week,
       
      en nú er fundinn.'
      but - now - are - found
      but now they've been found."
       
       
      Hann kvazk ekki at slíku telja.
      he - said - not - about - such - to count
      He (Hrafnkel) said that such things were of no account.
       
      'Eða hefir ekki verr at farit?
      and/or/but - has - nothing - worse - concerning - faring
      "Hasn't anything worse happened?
       
      Hefir þat ok ekki svá opt til borit sem ván hefir at verit,
      has - that - but/though - not - so - often - come to pass - that - expectation - has - happened
      It hasn't occured as often as might be expected,
       
      at fjárins hafi vant verit.
      that - of livestock - has - a lack - happened
      that the sheep have gone missing.
       
      En hefir þú ekki nõkkut riðit Freyfaxa mínum hinn fyrra dag?'
      but - have - you - not - in any way - ridden - Freyfaxi - my - the - before - day
      But didn't you ride my Freyfaxi yesterday?"
       
       
      Hann kvezk eigi þræta þess mega.
      he - said - not - deny - this - to be able
      Einar said he couldn't deny it.
       
       
      Hrafnkell svarar: 'Fyrir hví reiztu þessu hrossi,
      Hrafnkell - answered - for this reason - why - did you ride - this - horse
      Hrafnkel answered: "For what reason did you ride this horse
       
      er þér var bannat, þar er hin váru nóg til,
      which - to you - was - forbidden - where - it - was - sufficient - concerning
      that was forbidden to you, when there were plenty of others
       
      er þér var lofat?
      which - to you - were - permitted
      that you had permission to take?
       
      Þar munda ek hafa gefit þér upp eina sõk,
      there - would - I - have - given quarter - to you - up - one - offense
      I would have forgiven you (this) one offense,
       
      ef ek hefða eigi svá mikit um mælt,
      if - I - had - not - so - much - about it - said
      if I had not sworn such a great (oath) about this,
       
      en þó hefir þú vel við gengit.'
      but - nevertheless - have -you - readily - towards (this) - confessed
      but nevertheless you have readily confessed."
       
       
    • Alan Thompson
      Hæ Now that we have moved on to the next bit (excuse the technical term) of Hrafnkel´s Saga, I have the following comments and question on the following
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 4, 2004
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        Now that we have moved on to the next bit (excuse the technical term) of Hrafnkel´s Saga, I have the following comments and question on the following lines from the previous bit, lines 152-176, which I would be pleased to get feedback on

         

        Kveðja

        Alysseann

         

        154. 'Illa þykkir mér, at þú ert þann veg til gõrr, fóstri minn,

        My translation: ‘(It) seems to me, that you are thus treated badly, my fosterling,

        Other translations: “It seems to me  (I think it) evil/unpleasant/bad that your are treated thus, my foster son,

         

        In this sentence, I think ‘illa’ is an adverb modifying ‘gõrr til’rather than an adjective. If it was an adjective wouldn’t it be ‘illt” ie the nom sg neuter form? There is a similar situation at line 166: Einarr svarar:  'Illa hefir mér at farit,’ where some have translated ‘illa’ as ‘something bad’ (ie as an adjective) where again, I think it is an adverb, ie: ‘It has fared badly with me.’

         

        157. Far þú til liðs þíns.'

        My translation: Go (you) to your herd

        Other translations: Go now to your mares.”, “Go back to your herd”

         

        Comment: ‘now’ and ‘back’ are not in the original and would not be included in a literal translation.

         

        161. Øxi hafði hann í hendi, en ekki fleira vápna.

        My translation: He had an axe in (his) hand, but not more weapons.

        Other translations: He had an ax in hand, but no more/other weapons.

         

        Comment: ‘ekki’ can be a neut pronoun meaning ‘nothing’ or as an adverb meaning ‘not’, but I don’t think it can be used to mean ‘no’. Thus, I think it is used here as an adverb. There are a number of other places where I think it is also being used as an adverb: four times between lines 168-171, where others have, in some cases, translated it as ‘no.’ I notice that the text seems (to me at least) to use both ‘ekki’ and ‘eigi’ almost interchangeably for the adverb ‘not’ (see line 172, for example, immediately following the examples of ‘ekki’ I mentioned. Would one normally expect this in a single text or am I missing something?

         

        167. en nú er fundinn.'

        but now are found.”

         

        Question: why is the 3rd pers sg ‘er’ used here, when the sense would suggest plural ‘eru’?

         

        168. Hann kvazk ekki at slíku telja.

        My translation: He (Hrafnkel) declared himself (that he was) not to count (object to) such.

        Other translation: He didn’t speak to object at such.

         

        Comment: I think ‘ekki’ is modifying ‘telja’ rather than ‘kvazk’

         

        176. en þó hefir þú vel við gengit.'

        My translation: but still you have intended/meant/behaved/proceeded/acted well.

        Other translations: but nevertheless you have readily confessed.

         

        Comment: I note that Gordon glosses ‘ganga við’ as ´confess’ and Zoega as ‘avow.’ Zoega also gives the middle voice ‘gangast við’ as ‘to confess.’ My modern Icelandic dictionary only gives ‘gangast við’ as ‘to confess’ with no entry for ‘ganga við.’ Without using these aids my initial translation was that ´ganga við vel’ had the sense that Einar had acted with good intentions throughout the episode, not only in owning up to riding Freyfaxi, but also in trying to carry out his shepherds duty. I would be interested in any opinions regarding whether ´ganga við’ might have the meaning I indicated.

         

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Laurel Bradshaw [mailto:llawryf@...]
        Sent:
        Saturday, 31 January 2004 9:18 AM
        To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [norse_course] Hrafnkel 152-176 / Laurel

         

        'Hvat mun garprinn vilja, er hann er heim kominn?'

        what - should - the gallant fellow - wish - that - he - towards home - came

        "What should the gallant fellow want, that he has come back home?"

         

        segir Hrafnkell.  'Eigi mun þat góðu gegna.'

        says - Hrafnkell - not - must - that - good - bode

        said Hrafnkel.  "That doesn't bode well."

         

         

        Síðan gekk hann út ok sér Freyfaxa ok mælti við hann:

        then - went - he - out - and - sees - Freyfaxi - and - says - to - him

        Then he went out and saw Freyfaxi, and said to him:

         

        'Illa þykkir mér, at þú ert þann veg til gõrr, fóstri minn ,

        unpleasing - it seems - to me - as regards - you - are - that - manner - treated - fosterling - of mine

        "I am displeased at how you have been treated, my foster-son,

         

        en heima hafðir þú vit þitt, er þú sagðir mér til,

        but - at home - had - you - wits - your - when - you - told - me - concerning this

        but you had your wits about you when you told me of this.

         

        ok skal þessa hefnt verða.  Far þú til liðs þíns.'

        and - shall - this - avenged - be - go - you - to - herd - your

        This will be avenged.  Go to your herd."

         

         

        En hann gekk þegar upp eptir dalnum til stóðs síns.

        and - he - went - at once - up - along - the valley - to - stud - his

        And he went immediately up the valley to his stud.

         

         

        Hrafnkell ferr í rekkju sína um kveldit

        Hrafnkell - went - to - bed - his - in - the evening 

        Hrafnkel went to (his) bed that evening

         

        ok svaf af um nóttina.

        and - slept - through - the night

        and slept through the night.

         

        En um morguninn lét hann taka sér hest

        and - in - the morning - let - he - take - himself - a horse

        In the morning, he had a horse taken

         

        ok leggja á sõðul ok ríðr upp til sels.

        and - put - on - a saddle - and - rode - up - to - sheiling

        and saddled for him, and rode up to the sheiling.

         

        Hann ríðr í blám klæðum.

        he - rode - in - black - clothing

        He rode wearing black clothes.

         

        Øxi hafði hann í hendi, en ekki fleira vápna.

        an ax - had - he - in - hand - but - no - more - weapons

        He had an ax in his hand, but no other weapons.

         

        Þá hafði Einarr nýrekit fé í kvíar.

        then - had - Einarr - newly driven - livestock - into - sheepfold

        Einar had just driven the sheep into the fold.

         

        Hann lá á kvíagarðinum ok talði fé,

        he - was lying - on - the sheepfold wall - and - counting - sheep

        He was lying on the wall of the sheepfold, counting the sheep, 

         

        en konur váru at mjólka.

        and - women - were - at - milking

        and the women were milking.

         

         

        Þau heilsuðu honum.

        they - greeted - him (Hrafnkell)

        They greeted Hrafnkel.

         

         

        Hann spurði, hversu þeim fœri (foeri) at.

        he - asked - how - to them - were going - concerning

        He asked how things had been going for them.

         

         

        Einarr svarar:  'Illa hefir mér at farit,

        Einarr - answered - unpleasing - has - to me - concerning - faring

        Einar answered:  "It hasn't been going well for me,

         

        því at vant varð þriggja tiga ásauðar nær viku,

        because - lacking - were - three - of ten - ewes - nearly - a week

        because thirty ewes were missing for nearly a week,

         

        en nú er fundinn.'

        but - now - are - found

        but now they've been found."

         

         

        Hann kvazk ekki at slíku telja.

        he - said - not - about - such - to count

        He (Hrafnkel) said that such things were of no account.

         

        'Eða hefir ekki verr at farit?

        and/or/but - has - nothing - worse - concerning - faring

        "Hasn't anything worse happened?

         

        Hefir þat ok ekki svá opt til borit sem ván hefir at verit,

        has - that - but/though - not - so - often - come to pass - that - expectation - has - happened

        It hasn't occured as often as might be expected,

         

        at fjárins hafi vant verit.

        that - of livestock - has - a lack - happened

        that the sheep have gone missing.

         

        En hefir þú ekki nõkkut riðit Freyfaxa mínum hinn fyrra dag?'

        but - have - you - not - in any way - ridden - Freyfaxi - my - the - before - day

        But didn't you ride my Freyfaxi yesterday?"

         

         

        Hann kvezk eigi þræta þess mega.

        he - said - not - deny - this - to be able

        Einar said he couldn't deny it.

         

         

        Hrafnkell svarar: 'Fyrir hví reiztu þessu hrossi,

        Hrafnkell - answered - for this reason - why - did you ride - this - horse

        Hrafnkel answered: "For what reason did you ride this horse

         

        er þér var bannat, þar er hin váru nóg til,

        which - to you - was - forbidden - where - it - was - sufficient - concerning

        that was forbidden to you, when there were plenty of others

         

        er þér var lofat?

        which - to you - were - permitted

        that you had permission to take?

         

        Þar munda ek hafa gefit þér upp eina sõk,

        there - would - I - have - given quarter - to you - up - one - offense

        I would have forgiven you (this) one offense,

         

        ef ek hefða eigi svá mikit um mælt,

        if - I - had - not - so - much - about it - said

        if I had not sworn such a great (oath) about this,

         

        en þó hefir þú vel við gengit.'

        but - nevertheless - have -you - readily - towards (this) - confessed

        but nevertheless you have readily confessed."

         

         

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      • xigung
        Hi Alyssean,Alan Thompson wrote: .......which I would be pleased to get feedback on154. Illa þykkir mér, at þú ert þann veg til
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 5, 2004
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          Hi Alyssean,

          "Alan Thompson" wrote:
          >.......which I would be pleased to get feedback on
          >

          > 154. 'Illa þykkir mér, at þú ert þann veg til gõrr, fóstri minn,
          > My translation: ‘(It) seems to me, that you are thus treated badly,
          my fosterling,
          > Other translations: “It seems to me (I think it)
          evil/unpleasant/bad that your are treated thus, my foster son,
          >
          > In this sentence, I think ‘illa’ is an adverb modifying ‘gõrr
          til’rather than an adjective. If it was an adjective wouldn’t it be
          ‘illt” ie the nom sg neuter form? There is a similar situation at line
          166: Einarr svarar: 'Illa hefir mér at farit,’ where some have
          translated ‘illa’ as ‘something bad’ (ie as an adjective) where aga=
          in,
          I think it is an adverb, ie: ‘It has fared badly with me.’

          My immediate understanding of this sentence is slightly different.
          "illa þykkir mér" is the first unit, or partial sentence.
          But it is incomplete without an accusative object, which is
          typically a "þat" and that may be used to fill out the empty
          slot thus: "illa þykkir mér þat" (bad seems to me 'you_know_what')
          But in the actual sentence the þat-slot has been replaced
          by the subclause "at þú ert þann veg til görr", typically
          beginning with the conjunction "at". Thus, instead of qualifying
          þat (demonstrative sg.n.acc.), illa now qualifies the whole
          sub-clause that has replaced the slot-word þat. And so it is
          the whole condition of the horse which is qualified by "illa".
          Thus, "illa", as I see it, does not qualify a single noun or
          verb in the sub clause, but the whole sub clause.

          Looking in my dictionary, I see your point, though, that
          'illa' is the adverbial form, whereas the adjective form
          is 'illr' in its 24 adaptions.

          If you then have followed my way of thinking above,
          where I did not reflect on the point you raise here,
          I would say that when 'illa' qualifies a condition/state-of-affairs
          described by a sub-clause, it would mainly qualify
          the verb of the sub clause, hence the adverbial form.

          Simpler is to see it as adverbial qualifier of the verb
          in the first clause, þykkja. For example, replacing
          'to think' by 'to rain', you might want to say in
          English: "It rains badly [on me]".
          Then 'badly' is adverb to the verb 'rain'.
          However, if you say "It rains bad [stuff] on me",
          the 'bad' is adjective to the suppressed 'stuff'.
          In the case at hand, "illa" may either be seen as
          qualifying þykkja or as qualifying the sub-clause
          that starts with 'at'. I do not know what the right
          answer is, or if there is a way to find it out.



          There is something that I don't understand here, and that
          is how adverbs are formed from adjectives. What is the rule?
          Why is it 'illa' that is the adverb corresponding to 'illr'
          and not some other form. I am not sure what the rule is here.
          I can try to look it up. Any way, in actual practice
          you don't worry about it, but just remember the example
          'illa þykkir mér..' and whenever you use it, always follow
          that paradigma. But I agree that there ought to be a
          grammatical explanation.

          >
          > 157. Far þú til liðs þíns.'
          > My translation: Go (you) to your herd
          > Other translations: Go now to your mares.”, “Go back to your herd”
          >
          > Comment: ‘now’ and ‘back’ are not in the original and would not
          > be included in a literal translation.
          " Go you to your 'army' ".
          ('army'= lið = heap of individuals, group, flock)

          > 161. Øxi hafði hann í hendi, en ekki fleira vápna.
          > My translation: He had an axe in (his) hand, but not more weapons.
          > Other translations: He had an ax in hand, but no more/other weapons.
          >
          > Comment: ‘ekki’ can be a neut pronoun meaning ‘nothing’ or as an
          adverb meaning ‘not’, but I don’t think it can be used to mean ‘noâ=
          €™.
          Thus, I think it is used here as an adverb. There are a number of
          other places where I think it is also being used as an adverb: four
          times between lines 168-171, where others have, in some cases,
          translated it as ‘no.’ I notice that the text seems (to me at least)
          to use both ‘ekki’ and ‘eigi’ almost interchangeably for the adverb=

          ‘not’ (see line 172, for example, immediately following the examples
          of ‘ekki’ I mentioned. Would one normally expect this in a single text
          or am I missing something?

          I think you have to use the method of "filling out" here,
          i.e. replace by:
          161. Øxi hafði hann í hendi, en ekki hafði hann fleira vápna.

          Then you will see that the structure is
          A, but not B.
          The word 'en' then is a conjunction tying together two
          partial statements A and B. 'ekki' in front of statement B
          then signifies the abnegation of statement B,
          i.e. " he did n o t have more weapons [than the axe] ".

          > 167. en nú er fundinn.'
          > but now are found.”
          >
          > Question: why is the 3rd pers sg ‘er’ used here, when the sense
          would suggest plural ‘eru’?

          Good question!
          If the 'found' refers to the sheep (sauðr m., pl. sauðir),
          then it ought to have been
          "sem nú eru fundnir"
          But in the preceding sentence you used an unclear form
          of the verb vera. If the original ON said "vart"
          it is clear that the group of sheep is seen as a unit,
          hence singular. But I'd like to look at the original ON
          first, before I am completely sure.



          >
          > 168. Hann kvazk ekki at slíku telja.
          > My translation: He (Hrafnkel) declared himself (that he was) not to
          count (object to) such.
          > Other translation: He didn’t speak to object at such.
          >
          > Comment: I think ‘ekki’ is modifying ‘telja’ rather than ‘kvazk=
          ’

          Here, in logical notation:
          A said B
          A said not B.
          'not B' then stands for the logical opposite of the whole statement B.
          In Hamlet: " To be or not to be, that is the question ".
          Here: " To count or not to count...."
          You see that english can also put 'not' before 'to'.
          But I think you are right that the 'ekki' in front of the 'at'
          as a consequence affects the verb in statement B.



          >
          > 176. en þó hefir þú vel við gengit.'
          > My translation: but still you have
          intended/meant/behaved/proceeded/acted well.
          > Other translations: but nevertheless you have readily confessed.
          >
          > Comment: I note that Gordon glosses ‘ganga við’ as ´confess’ and
          Zoega as ‘avow.’ Zoega also gives the middle voice ‘gangast við’ a=
          s
          ‘to confess.’ My modern Icelandic dictionary only gives ‘gangast við=
          ’
          as ‘to confess’ with no entry for ‘ganga við.’ Without using these=

          aids my initial translation was that ´ganga við vel’ had the sense
          that Einar had acted with good intentions throughout the episode, not
          only in owning up to riding Freyfaxi, but also in trying to carry out
          his shepherds duty. I would be interested in any opinions regarding
          whether ´ganga við’ might have the meaning I indicated.
          >

          Well, at least in Danish and Norwegian "å vedgå" means to admit
          something, such as 'to admit guilt'. The composite verb is formed
          from 'å gå' (to go) plus the preposition 'ved' (by, at).
          By putting the preposition in front of the verb, you have composed
          a new verb 'å ved-gå' that means to admit -- that is, not in the sense
          of admitting someone to a building, but in the sense of acknowledging
          some act, or maybe some fact. (such as 2+2=4)
          The medio-passive form (-zk) then means that one admits something
          to oneself.

          Well, thank you very much for the thought excercises!

          Best
          Xigung



          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Laurel Bradshaw [mailto:llawryf@e...]
          > Sent: Saturday, 31 January 2004 9:18 AM
          > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [norse_course] Hrafnkel 152-176 / Laurel
          >
          > 'Hvat mun garprinn vilja, er hann er heim kominn?'
          > what - should - the gallant fellow - wish - that - he - towards home
          - came
          > "What should the gallant fellow want, that he has come back home?"
          >
          > segir Hrafnkell. 'Eigi mun þat góðu gegna.'
          > says - Hrafnkell - not - must - that - good - bode
          > said Hrafnkel. "That doesn't bode well."
          >
          >
          > Síðan gekk hann út ok sér Freyfaxa ok mælti við hann:
          > then - went - he - out - and - sees - Freyfaxi - and - says - to - him
          > Then he went out and saw Freyfaxi, and said to him:
          >
          > 'Illa þykkir mér, at þú ert þann veg til gõrr, fóstri minn,
          > unpleasing - it seems - to me - as regards - you - are - that -
          manner - treated - fosterling - of mine
          > "I am displeased at how you have been treated, my foster-son,
          >
          > en heima hafðir þú vit þitt, er þú sagðir mér til,
          > but - at home - had - you - wits - your - when - you - told - me -
          concerning this
          > but you had your wits about you when you told me of this.
          >
          > ok skal þessa hefnt verða. Far þú til liðs þíns.'
          > and - shall - this - avenged - be - go - you - to - herd - your
          > This will be avenged. Go to your herd."
          >
          >
          > En hann gekk þegar upp eptir dalnum til stóðs síns.
          > and - he - went - at once - up - along - the valley - to - stud - his
          > And he went immediately up the valley to his stud.
          >
          >
          > Hrafnkell ferr í rekkju sína um kveldit
          > Hrafnkell - went - to - bed - his - in - the evening
          > Hrafnkel went to (his) bed that evening
          >
          > ok svaf af um nóttina.
          > and - slept - through - the night
          > and slept through the night.
          >
          > En um morguninn lét hann taka sér hest
          > and - in - the morning - let - he - take - himself - a horse
          > In the morning, he had a horse taken
          >
          > ok leggja á sõðul ok ríðr upp til sels.
          > and - put - on - a saddle - and - rode - up - to - sheiling
          > and saddled for him, and rode up to the sheiling.
          >
          > Hann ríðr í blám klæðum.
          > he - rode - in - black - clothing
          > He rode wearing black clothes.
          >
          > Øxi hafði hann í hendi, en ekki fleira vápna.
          > an ax - had - he - in - hand - but - no - more - weapons
          > He had an ax in his hand, but no other weapons.
          >
          > Þá hafði Einarr nýrekit fé í kvíar.
          > then - had - Einarr - newly driven - livestock - into - sheepfold
          > Einar had just driven the sheep into the fold.
          >
          > Hann lá á kvíagarðinum ok talði fé,
          > he - was lying - on - the sheepfold wall - and - counting - sheep
          > He was lying on the wall of the sheepfold, counting the sheep,
          >
          > en konur váru at mjólka.
          > and - women - were - at - milking
          > and the women were milking.
          >
          >
          > Þau heilsuðu honum.
          > they - greeted - him (Hrafnkell)
          > They greeted Hrafnkel.
          >
          >
          > Hann spurði, hversu þeim fÅ"ri (foeri) at.
          > he - asked - how - to them - were going - concerning
          > He asked how things had been going for them.
          >
          >
          > Einarr svarar: 'Illa hefir mér at farit,
          > Einarr - answered - unpleasing - has - to me - concerning - faring
          > Einar answered: "It hasn't been going well for me,
          >
          > því at vant varð þriggja tiga ásauðar nær viku,
          > because - lacking - were - three - of ten - ewes - nearly - a week
          > because thirty ewes were missing for nearly a week,

          This is confusing, because in ON it is either "vart" or váruð"
          But the form you quote is neither. I suspect you have mixed
          in thje modern Icelandic, but am not sure.

          >
          > en nú er fundinn.'
          > but - now - are - found
          > but now they've been found."
          >
          >
          > Hann kvazk ekki at slíku telja.
          > he - said - not - about - such - to count
          > He (Hrafnkel) said that such things were of no account.
          >
          > 'Eða hefir ekki verr at farit?
          > and/or/but - has - nothing - worse - concerning - faring
          > "Hasn't anything worse happened?
          >
          > Hefir þat ok ekki svá opt til borit sem ván hefir at verit,
          > has - that - but/though - not - so - often - come to pass - that -
          expectation - has - happened
          > It hasn't occured as often as might be expected,
          >
          > at fjárins hafi vant verit.
          > that - of livestock - has - a lack - happened
          > that the sheep have gone missing.
          >
          > En hefir þú ekki nõkkut riðit Freyfaxa mínum hinn fyrra dag?'
          > but - have - you - not - in any way - ridden - Freyfaxi - my - the -
          before - day
          > But didn't you ride my Freyfaxi yesterday?"
          >
          >
          > Hann kvezk eigi þræta þess mega.
          > he - said - not - deny - this - to be able
          > Einar said he couldn't deny it.
          >
          >
          > Hrafnkell svarar: 'Fyrir hví reiztu þessu hrossi,
          > Hrafnkell - answered - for this reason - why - did you ride - this -
          horse
          > Hrafnkel answered: "For what reason did you ride this horse
          >
          > er þér var bannat, þar er hin váru nóg til,
          > which - to you - was - forbidden - where - it - was - sufficient -
          concerning
          > that was forbidden to you, when there were plenty of others
          >
          > er þér var lofat?
          > which - to you - were - permitted
          > that you had permission to take?
          >
          > Þar munda ek hafa gefit þér upp eina sõk,
          > there - would - I - have - given quarter - to you - up - one - offense
          > I would have forgiven you (this) one offense,
          >
          > ef ek hefða eigi svá mikit um mælt,
          > if - I - had - not - so - much - about it - said
          > if I had not sworn such a great (oath) about this,
          >
          > en þó hefir þú vel við gengit.'
          > but - nevertheless - have -you - readily - towards (this) - confessed
          > but nevertheless you have readily confessed."
          >
          >
          > ·
        • Alan Thompson
          Hi Xigung Thanks for your comments and it s good to see your computer is still emitting strange characters :) Regarding the formation of adverbs from
          Message 4 of 5 , Feb 6, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Xigung

            Thanks for your comments and it's good to see your computer is still emitting strange characters :)

            Regarding the formation of adverbs from adjectives, Gordon, list the following ways it can occur:

            1. By means of suffixes, namely -a, as in illa, gjarna from illr, gjarn; -i, as in lengi, from langr; -an,as in jafnan, saman, fram jafn, samr...
            2. from special uses of particular cases: gen sg alls (partitive, passing into degree); dat sg neut miklu (degree); acc sg alt "all the way"; dat pl stórum, næstum.
            3. the neut sg of most adjs could be used as an adverb: sárt ertu leikinn 'sorely art thou treated.'

            However, Gordon gives no rule to guide us in distinguishing why 'illr' to use my example, would become type 1 'illa' rather than type 3 'illt'

            Turning to my particular example, I would consider that 'at þú ert þann veg til gõrr' is really the subject of the sentence rather than the object, and hence if 'illa' was modifying the subject clause it would still logically need to be an adjective. Thus, in English word order (subject - verb - complement - indirect object): 'At þú ert þann veg til gõrr þykkir illt mér (That you are treated in this way seems bad to me). Nevertheless, I guess logic can only take you so far in language and beyond that one has to allow for idiom. Thus, just as 'þykkja' takes the dative case, it may also 'take' an adverb rather than an adjective as a modifier. From your knowledge, if you were to substitute 'good', 'silly', 'unusual', 'disappointing' etc for 'bad' in the expression 'Illa þykkir mér' would you use the adverbial form (noting that often the adverbial form and the adjective would be indistinguishable)?

            With respect to your comments on the use of 'ekki,' I don´t know if you meant it but your explanation completely supported my argument that it was being used as the adverb 'not' rather than as a pronoun.

            Kveðja
            Alysseann


            -----Original Message-----
            From: xigung [mailto:xigung@...]
            Sent: Friday, 6 February 2004 6:06 AM
            To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [norse_course] Re: Hrafnkel 152-176 / Laurel

            > 154. 'Illa þykkir mér, at þú ert þann veg til gõrr, fóstri minn,
            > My translation: ‘(It) seems to me, that you are thus treated badly,
            my fosterling,
            > Other translations: “It seems to me (I think it)
            evil/unpleasant/bad that your are treated thus, my foster son,
            >
            > In this sentence, I think ‘illa’ is an adverb modifying ‘gõrr
            til’rather than an adjective. If it was an adjective wouldn’t it be
            ‘illt” ie the nom sg neuter form? There is a similar situation at line
            166: Einarr svarar: 'Illa hefir mér at farit,’ where some have
            translated ‘illa’ as ‘something bad’ (ie as an adjective) where aga=
            in,
            I think it is an adverb, ie: ‘It has fared badly with me.’

            My immediate understanding of this sentence is slightly different.
            "illa þykkir mér" is the first unit, or partial sentence.
            But it is incomplete without an accusative object, which is
            typically a "þat" and that may be used to fill out the empty
            slot thus: "illa þykkir mér þat" (bad seems to me 'you_know_what')
            But in the actual sentence the þat-slot has been replaced
            by the subclause "at þú ert þann veg til görr", typically
            beginning with the conjunction "at". Thus, instead of qualifying
            þat (demonstrative sg.n.acc.), illa now qualifies the whole
            sub-clause that has replaced the slot-word þat. And so it is
            the whole condition of the horse which is qualified by "illa".
            Thus, "illa", as I see it, does not qualify a single noun or
            verb in the sub clause, but the whole sub clause.

            Looking in my dictionary, I see your point, though, that
            'illa' is the adverbial form, whereas the adjective form
            is 'illr' in its 24 adaptions.

            If you then have followed my way of thinking above,
            where I did not reflect on the point you raise here,
            I would say that when 'illa' qualifies a condition/state-of-affairs
            described by a sub-clause, it would mainly qualify
            the verb of the sub clause, hence the adverbial form.

            Simpler is to see it as adverbial qualifier of the verb
            in the first clause, þykkja. For example, replacing
            'to think' by 'to rain', you might want to say in
            English: "It rains badly [on me]".
            Then 'badly' is adverb to the verb 'rain'.
            However, if you say "It rains bad [stuff] on me",
            the 'bad' is adjective to the suppressed 'stuff'.
            In the case at hand, "illa" may either be seen as
            qualifying þykkja or as qualifying the sub-clause
            that starts with 'at'. I do not know what the right
            answer is, or if there is a way to find it out.



            There is something that I don't understand here, and that
            is how adverbs are formed from adjectives. What is the rule?
            Why is it 'illa' that is the adverb corresponding to 'illr'
            and not some other form. I am not sure what the rule is here.
            I can try to look it up. Any way, in actual practice
            you don't worry about it, but just remember the example
            'illa þykkir mér..' and whenever you use it, always follow
            that paradigma. But I agree that there ought to be a
            grammatical explanation.

            >
            > 157. Far þú til liðs þíns.'
            > My translation: Go (you) to your herd
            > Other translations: Go now to your mares.”, “Go back to your herd”
            >
            > Comment: ‘now’ and ‘back’ are not in the original and would not
            > be included in a literal translation.
            " Go you to your 'army' ".
            ('army'= lið = heap of individuals, group, flock)

            > 161. Øxi hafði hann í hendi, en ekki fleira vápna.
            > My translation: He had an axe in (his) hand, but not more weapons.
            > Other translations: He had an ax in hand, but no more/other weapons.
            >
            > Comment: ‘ekki’ can be a neut pronoun meaning ‘nothing’ or as an
            adverb meaning ‘not’, but I don’t think it can be used to mean ‘noâ=
            €™.
            Thus, I think it is used here as an adverb. There are a number of
            other places where I think it is also being used as an adverb: four
            times between lines 168-171, where others have, in some cases,
            translated it as ‘no.’ I notice that the text seems (to me at least)
            to use both ‘ekki’ and ‘eigi’ almost interchangeably for the adverb=

            ‘not’ (see line 172, for example, immediately following the examples
            of ‘ekki’ I mentioned. Would one normally expect this in a single text
            or am I missing something?

            I think you have to use the method of "filling out" here,
            i.e. replace by:
            161. Øxi hafði hann í hendi, en ekki hafði hann fleira vápna.

            Then you will see that the structure is
            A, but not B.
            The word 'en' then is a conjunction tying together two
            partial statements A and B. 'ekki' in front of statement B
            then signifies the abnegation of statement B,
            i.e. " he did n o t have more weapons [than the axe] ".

            > 167. en nú er fundinn.'
            > but now are found.”
            >
            > Question: why is the 3rd pers sg ‘er’ used here, when the sense
            would suggest plural ‘eru’?

            Good question!
            If the 'found' refers to the sheep (sauðr m., pl. sauðir),
            then it ought to have been
            "sem nú eru fundnir"
            But in the preceding sentence you used an unclear form
            of the verb vera. If the original ON said "vart"
            it is clear that the group of sheep is seen as a unit,
            hence singular. But I'd like to look at the original ON
            first, before I am completely sure.



            >
            > 168. Hann kvazk ekki at slíku telja.
            > My translation: He (Hrafnkel) declared himself (that he was) not to
            count (object to) such.
            > Other translation: He didn’t speak to object at such.
            >
            > Comment: I think ‘ekki’ is modifying ‘telja’ rather than ‘kvazk=
            ’

            Here, in logical notation:
            A said B
            A said not B.
            'not B' then stands for the logical opposite of the whole statement B.
            In Hamlet: " To be or not to be, that is the question ".
            Here: " To count or not to count...."
            You see that english can also put 'not' before 'to'.
            But I think you are right that the 'ekki' in front of the 'at'
            as a consequence affects the verb in statement B.



            >
            > 176. en þó hefir þú vel við gengit.'
            > My translation: but still you have
            intended/meant/behaved/proceeded/acted well.
            > Other translations: but nevertheless you have readily confessed.
            >
            > Comment: I note that Gordon glosses ‘ganga við’ as ´confess’ and
            Zoega as ‘avow.’ Zoega also gives the middle voice ‘gangast við’ a=
            s
            ‘to confess.’ My modern Icelandic dictionary only gives ‘gangast við=
            ’
            as ‘to confess’ with no entry for ‘ganga við.’ Without using these=

            aids my initial translation was that ´ganga við vel’ had the sense
            that Einar had acted with good intentions throughout the episode, not
            only in owning up to riding Freyfaxi, but also in trying to carry out
            his shepherds duty. I would be interested in any opinions regarding
            whether ´ganga við’ might have the meaning I indicated.
            >

            Well, at least in Danish and Norwegian "å vedgå" means to admit
            something, such as 'to admit guilt'. The composite verb is formed
            from 'å gå' (to go) plus the preposition 'ved' (by, at).
            By putting the preposition in front of the verb, you have composed
            a new verb 'å ved-gå' that means to admit -- that is, not in the sense
            of admitting someone to a building, but in the sense of acknowledging
            some act, or maybe some fact. (such as 2+2=4)
            The medio-passive form (-zk) then means that one admits something
            to oneself.

            Well, thank you very much for the thought excercises!

            Best
            Xigung



            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Laurel Bradshaw [mailto:llawryf@e...]
            > Sent: Saturday, 31 January 2004 9:18 AM
            > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [norse_course] Hrafnkel 152-176 / Laurel
            >
            > 'Hvat mun garprinn vilja, er hann er heim kominn?'
            > what - should - the gallant fellow - wish - that - he - towards home
            - came
            > "What should the gallant fellow want, that he has come back home?"
            >
            > segir Hrafnkell. 'Eigi mun þat góðu gegna.'
            > says - Hrafnkell - not - must - that - good - bode
            > said Hrafnkel. "That doesn't bode well."
            >
            >
            > Síðan gekk hann út ok sér Freyfaxa ok mælti við hann:
            > then - went - he - out - and - sees - Freyfaxi - and - says - to - him
            > Then he went out and saw Freyfaxi, and said to him:
            >
            > 'Illa þykkir mér, at þú ert þann veg til gõrr, fóstri minn,
            > unpleasing - it seems - to me - as regards - you - are - that -
            manner - treated - fosterling - of mine
            > "I am displeased at how you have been treated, my foster-son,
            >
            > en heima hafðir þú vit þitt, er þú sagðir mér til,
            > but - at home - had - you - wits - your - when - you - told - me -
            concerning this
            > but you had your wits about you when you told me of this.
            >
            > ok skal þessa hefnt verða. Far þú til liðs þíns.'
            > and - shall - this - avenged - be - go - you - to - herd - your
            > This will be avenged. Go to your herd."
            >
            >
            > En hann gekk þegar upp eptir dalnum til stóðs síns.
            > and - he - went - at once - up - along - the valley - to - stud - his
            > And he went immediately up the valley to his stud.
            >
            >
            > Hrafnkell ferr í rekkju sína um kveldit
            > Hrafnkell - went - to - bed - his - in - the evening
            > Hrafnkel went to (his) bed that evening
            >
            > ok svaf af um nóttina.
            > and - slept - through - the night
            > and slept through the night.
            >
            > En um morguninn lét hann taka sér hest
            > and - in - the morning - let - he - take - himself - a horse
            > In the morning, he had a horse taken
            >
            > ok leggja á sõðul ok ríðr upp til sels.
            > and - put - on - a saddle - and - rode - up - to - sheiling
            > and saddled for him, and rode up to the sheiling.
            >
            > Hann ríðr í blám klæðum.
            > he - rode - in - black - clothing
            > He rode wearing black clothes.
            >
            > Øxi hafði hann í hendi, en ekki fleira vápna.
            > an ax - had - he - in - hand - but - no - more - weapons
            > He had an ax in his hand, but no other weapons.
            >
            > Þá hafði Einarr nýrekit fé í kvíar.
            > then - had - Einarr - newly driven - livestock - into - sheepfold
            > Einar had just driven the sheep into the fold.
            >
            > Hann lá á kvíagarðinum ok talði fé,
            > he - was lying - on - the sheepfold wall - and - counting - sheep
            > He was lying on the wall of the sheepfold, counting the sheep,
            >
            > en konur váru at mjólka.
            > and - women - were - at - milking
            > and the women were milking.
            >
            >
            > Þau heilsuðu honum.
            > they - greeted - him (Hrafnkell)
            > They greeted Hrafnkel.
            >
            >
            > Hann spurði, hversu þeim fÅ"ri (foeri) at.
            > he - asked - how - to them - were going - concerning
            > He asked how things had been going for them.
            >
            >
            > Einarr svarar: 'Illa hefir mér at farit,
            > Einarr - answered - unpleasing - has - to me - concerning - faring
            > Einar answered: "It hasn't been going well for me,
            >
            > því at vant varð þriggja tiga ásauðar nær viku,
            > because - lacking - were - three - of ten - ewes - nearly - a week
            > because thirty ewes were missing for nearly a week,

            This is confusing, because in ON it is either "vart" or váruð"
            But the form you quote is neither. I suspect you have mixed
            in thje modern Icelandic, but am not sure.

            >
            > en nú er fundinn.'
            > but - now - are - found
            > but now they've been found."
            >
            >
            > Hann kvazk ekki at slíku telja.
            > he - said - not - about - such - to count
            > He (Hrafnkel) said that such things were of no account.
            >
            > 'Eða hefir ekki verr at farit?
            > and/or/but - has - nothing - worse - concerning - faring
            > "Hasn't anything worse happened?
            >
            > Hefir þat ok ekki svá opt til borit sem ván hefir at verit,
            > has - that - but/though - not - so - often - come to pass - that -
            expectation - has - happened
            > It hasn't occured as often as might be expected,
            >
            > at fjárins hafi vant verit.
            > that - of livestock - has - a lack - happened
            > that the sheep have gone missing.
            >
            > En hefir þú ekki nõkkut riðit Freyfaxa mínum hinn fyrra dag?'
            > but - have - you - not - in any way - ridden - Freyfaxi - my - the -
            before - day
            > But didn't you ride my Freyfaxi yesterday?"
            >
            >
            > Hann kvezk eigi þræta þess mega.
            > he - said - not - deny - this - to be able
            > Einar said he couldn't deny it.
            >
            >
            > Hrafnkell svarar: 'Fyrir hví reiztu þessu hrossi,
            > Hrafnkell - answered - for this reason - why - did you ride - this -
            horse
            > Hrafnkel answered: "For what reason did you ride this horse
            >
            > er þér var bannat, þar er hin váru nóg til,
            > which - to you - was - forbidden - where - it - was - sufficient -
            concerning
            > that was forbidden to you, when there were plenty of others
            >
            > er þér var lofat?
            > which - to you - were - permitted
            > that you had permission to take?
            >
            > Þar munda ek hafa gefit þér upp eina sõk,
            > there - would - I - have - given quarter - to you - up - one - offense
            > I would have forgiven you (this) one offense,
            >
            > ef ek hefða eigi svá mikit um mælt,
            > if - I - had - not - so - much - about it - said
            > if I had not sworn such a great (oath) about this,
            >
            > en þó hefir þú vel við gengit.'
            > but - nevertheless - have -you - readily - towards (this) - confessed
            > but nevertheless you have readily confessed."
            >
            >
            > ·




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          • xigung
            Hi Alan! Strange business with the characters: What you write in ON comes across unreadable at my end. The two of us evidently have a relative problem there.
            Message 5 of 5 , Feb 10, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Alan!
              Strange business with the characters:
              What you write in ON comes across unreadable at my end.
              The two of us evidently have a relative problem there.
              When others submit ON sentences, I can read them just fine.
              btw my system is Linux running Mozilla.

              Otherwise, thank you for your remarks!

              "not" as adverb?
              My dictionary lists both "ikke" and "ikkje" as adverbs.
              So that must be the answer I guess. But look at the sentences
              A is equal to B.
              A is not equal to B.
              Then 'not' may be regarded as modifying the verb 'is'.
              But can it not also be seen as modifying the word 'equal'?
              A is unequal to B.
              I think those classification schemes may vary considerably
              without affecting the correctness of the described sentences.
              btw 'equal' is probably an adjective, since the adverb would
              be 'equally'.

              With regard to þykkja and illa/illr, I have consulted
              at least 3 different grammar books, but nowhere did I find
              a really good answer.

              What I did find, however, was that some dictionaries
              also list 'illt' as adverb, in addition to 'illa'.
              (the neutr. sg. Nom./Acc. form)


              But in one particular ON dictionary (a Danish one),
              I found a hint of an answer, because it says:

              " e-m þykkir e-t vel, illa (: orðit),
              = en er vel, ilde tilfreds med noget ".

              Here the verb 'orðit' in paranthesis, is probably the
              author of the dictionary's attemt at explaining the
              presence of the adverbial form 'illa'.
              As I understand it, the author hints at a missing
              verb, a verb that may be skipped without violating the
              ON syntax rules.
              There was also a hint somewhere, that some verbs like
              better to be associated with adverbs, whereas others
              better like adjectives. verða may then be such a verb as
              prefers adverbs. I am not quite sure, because I could
              not relocate the place I read it. But it does make some sense.

              In Old Norse, I also thought þykkja was linked to
              the Dative and the Accusative cases, with an absent
              Nominative. That is because it is a so-called 'impersonal'
              verb. The absent Nominative may then be replaced by some
              transpersonal 'it' for the purpose of translating.
              The pattern then is: e-m þykkir e-n (vera) e-t,
              for example: "mér þykkir manninn (vera) spakan"
              English: "to me [it] seems the man is wise".
              But here "the man" is an Accusative.
              The subject of the verb is 'it'.

              Another point I noted, is that when mér is placed
              after þykkir, then "þykkir mér" is often changed
              to "þykki mér" because an -r before an m- is cumbersome
              to pronounce, and so the -r is dropped. (as in the
              example in Hrafnkel's saga)

              But acording to yet another dictionary, þykkja
              takes a Dative object and a Nominative subject.
              In that case the example becomes "mér tykkir maðurinn (vera) spakr ".
              It is difficult to decide, in most examples, which of the two
              patterns is being used, because the Nominative form so often
              coincides with the accusative.
              Here another dictionary example:
              "mér synist hun falleg" (German: "sie dünkt mir (mich) schön".)
              (to me she seems beautiful)
              Here 'falleg' is from fallegr = adjective.
              Presumably, with þykkja, the same example would be:
              "þykki mér hana fallega", or the other variant:
              "þykki mér hun falleg".
              I don't know which variant would hold up to a closer investigation.
              The dictionaries I consulted seemed to have skipped much of
              the examples that would have been relevant to this particular
              problem.
              Here another example from the Edda:
              "hloeligt mér þat þykkir", where hloeligr = adj. = riduculous
              or laughable. So, it is clear that adjectives are used
              just as often as adverbs.
              If I am allowed to improvise from the above, then it seems to
              me that, by analogy, the following sentence might be correct:
              " Hloeligt tykki mér, at þú ert þannig til görr ".
              I wonder what Haukur would have to say about it.

              Best regards
              Xigung


              --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Thompson" <athompso@p...>
              wrote:
              > Hi Xigung
              >
              > Thanks for your comments and it's good to see your computer is still
              emitting strange characters :)
              >
              > Regarding the formation of adverbs from adjectives, Gordon, list the
              following ways it can occur:
              >
              > 1. By means of suffixes, namely -a, as in illa, gjarna from illr,
              gjarn; -i, as in lengi, from langr; -an,as in jafnan, saman, fram
              jafn, samr...
              > 2. from special uses of particular cases: gen sg alls (partitive,
              passing into degree); dat sg neut miklu (degree); acc sg alt "all the
              way"; dat pl stórum, næstum.
              > 3. the neut sg of most adjs could be used as an adverb: sárt ertu
              leikinn 'sorely art thou treated.'
              >
              > However, Gordon gives no rule to guide us in distinguishing why
              'illr' to use my example, would become type 1 'illa' rather than type
              3 'illt'
              >
              > Turning to my particular example, I would consider that 'at þú ert
              þann veg til gõrr' is really the subject of the sentence rather than
              the object, and hence if 'illa' was modifying the subject clause it
              would still logically need to be an adjective. Thus, in English word
              order (subject - verb - complement - indirect object): 'At þú ert þann
              veg til gõrr þykkir illt mér (That you are treated in this way seems
              bad to me). Nevertheless, I guess logic can only take you so far in
              language and beyond that one has to allow for idiom. Thus, just as
              'þykkja' takes the dative case, it may also 'take' an adverb rather
              than an adjective as a modifier. From your knowledge, if you were to
              substitute 'good', 'silly', 'unusual', 'disappointing' etc for 'bad'
              in the expression 'Illa þykkir mér' would you use the adverbial form
              (noting that often the adverbial form and the adjective would be
              indistinguishable)?
              >
              > With respect to your comments on the use of 'ekki,' I don´t know if
              you meant it but your explanation completely supported my argument
              that it was being used as the adverb 'not' rather than as a pronoun.
              >
              > Kveðja
              > Alysseann
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: xigung [mailto:xigung@y...]
              > Sent: Friday, 6 February 2004 6:06 AM
              > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [norse_course] Re: Hrafnkel 152-176 / Laurel
              >
              > > 154. 'Illa þykkir mér, at þú ert þann veg til gõrr, f=
              óstri
              minn,
              > > My translation: ‘(It) seems to me, that you are thus treated badl=
              y,
              > my fosterling,
              > > Other translations: â€Å"It seems to me (I think it)
              > evil/unpleasant/bad that your are treated thus, my foster son,
              > >
              > > In this sentence, I think ‘illa’ is an adverb modifying â=
              €˜gõrr
              > til’rather than an adjective. If it was an adjective wouldnâ€â„=
              ¢t it be
              > ‘illt” ie the nom sg neuter form? There is a similar situatio=
              n
              at line
              > 166: Einarr svarar: 'Illa hefir mér at farit,’ where some have=

              > translated ‘illa’ as ‘something bad’ (ie as an =
              adjective)
              where aga=
              > in,
              > I think it is an adverb, ie: ‘It has fared badly with me.’
              >
              > My immediate understanding of this sentence is slightly different.
              > "illa þykkir mér" is the first unit, or partial sentence.
              > But it is incomplete without an accusative object, which is
              > typically a "þat" and that may be used to fill out the empty
              > slot thus: "illa þykkir mér þat" (bad seems to me 'you_know_what=
              ')
              > But in the actual sentence the þat-slot has been replaced
              > by the subclause "at þú ert þann veg til görr", typically
              > beginning with the conjunction "at". Thus, instead of qualifying
              > þat (demonstrative sg.n.acc.), illa now qualifies the whole
              > sub-clause that has replaced the slot-word þat. And so it is
              > the whole condition of the horse which is qualified by "illa".
              > Thus, "illa", as I see it, does not qualify a single noun or
              > verb in the sub clause, but the whole sub clause.
              >
              > Looking in my dictionary, I see your point, though, that
              > 'illa' is the adverbial form, whereas the adjective form
              > is 'illr' in its 24 adaptions.
              >
              > If you then have followed my way of thinking above,
              > where I did not reflect on the point you raise here,
              > I would say that when 'illa' qualifies a condition/state-of-affairs
              > described by a sub-clause, it would mainly qualify
              > the verb of the sub clause, hence the adverbial form.
              >
              > Simpler is to see it as adverbial qualifier of the verb
              > in the first clause, þykkja. For example, replacing
              > 'to think' by 'to rain', you might want to say in
              > English: "It rains badly [on me]".
              > Then 'badly' is adverb to the verb 'rain'.
              > However, if you say "It rains bad [stuff] on me",
              > the 'bad' is adjective to the suppressed 'stuff'.
              > In the case at hand, "illa" may either be seen as
              > qualifying þykkja or as qualifying the sub-clause
              > that starts with 'at'. I do not know what the right
              > answer is, or if there is a way to find it out.
              >
              >
              >
              > There is something that I don't understand here, and that
              > is how adverbs are formed from adjectives. What is the rule?
              > Why is it 'illa' that is the adverb corresponding to 'illr'
              > and not some other form. I am not sure what the rule is here.
              > I can try to look it up. Any way, in actual practice
              > you don't worry about it, but just remember the example
              > 'illa þykkir mér..' and whenever you use it, always follow
              > that paradigma. But I agree that there ought to be a
              > grammatical explanation.
              >
              > >
              > > 157. Far þú til liðs þíns.'
              > > My translation: Go (you) to your herd
              > > Other translations: Go now to your mares.”, â€Å"Go back to you=
              r
              herd”
              > >
              > > Comment: ‘now’ and ‘back’ are not in the orig=
              inal and
              would not
              > > be included in a literal translation.
              > " Go you to your 'army' ".
              > ('army'= lið = heap of individuals, group, flock)
              >
              > > 161. Øxi hafði hann í hendi, en ekki fleira vápna.
              > > My translation: He had an axe in (his) hand, but not more weapons.
              > > Other translations: He had an ax in hand, but no more/other weapons.
              > >
              > > Comment: ‘ekki’ can be a neut pronoun meaning ‘nothi=
              ng’ or
              as an
              > adverb meaning ‘not’, but I don’t think it can be use=
              d to mean
              ‘noâ=
              > €™.
              > Thus, I think it is used here as an adverb. There are a number of
              > other places where I think it is also being used as an adverb: four
              > times between lines 168-171, where others have, in some cases,
              > translated it as ‘no.’ I notice that the text seems (to me a=
              t least)
              > to use both ‘ekki’ and ‘eigi’ almost interchang=
              eably for the
              adverb=
              >
              > ‘not’ (see line 172, for example, immediately following the =
              examples
              > of ‘ekki’ I mentioned. Would one normally expect this in a
              single text
              > or am I missing something?
              >
              > I think you have to use the method of "filling out" here,
              > i.e. replace by:
              > 161. Øxi hafði hann í hendi, en ekki hafði hann fleira váp=
              na.
              >
              > Then you will see that the structure is
              > A, but not B.
              > The word 'en' then is a conjunction tying together two
              > partial statements A and B. 'ekki' in front of statement B
              > then signifies the abnegation of statement B,
              > i.e. " he did n o t have more weapons [than the axe] ".
              >
              > > 167. en nú er fundinn.'
              > > but now are found.”
              > >
              > > Question: why is the 3rd pers sg ‘er’ used here, when the =
              sense
              > would suggest plural ‘eru’?
              >
              > Good question!
              > If the 'found' refers to the sheep (sauðr m., pl. sauðir),
              > then it ought to have been
              > "sem nú eru fundnir"
              > But in the preceding sentence you used an unclear form
              > of the verb vera. If the original ON said "vart"
              > it is clear that the group of sheep is seen as a unit,
              > hence singular. But I'd like to look at the original ON
              > first, before I am completely sure.
              >
              >
              >
              > >
              > > 168. Hann kvazk ekki at slíku telja.
              > > My translation: He (Hrafnkel) declared himself (that he was) not to
              > count (object to) such.
              > > Other translation: He didn’t speak to object at such.
              > >
              > > Comment: I think ‘ekki’ is modifying ‘telja’ =
              rather than
              ‘kvazk=
              > ’
              >
              > Here, in logical notation:
              > A said B
              > A said not B.
              > 'not B' then stands for the logical opposite of the whole statement B.
              > In Hamlet: " To be or not to be, that is the question ".
              > Here: " To count or not to count...."
              > You see that english can also put 'not' before 'to'.
              > But I think you are right that the 'ekki' in front of the 'at'
              > as a consequence affects the verb in statement B.
              >
              >
              >
              > >
              > > 176. en þó hefir þú vel við gengit.'
              > > My translation: but still you have
              > intended/meant/behaved/proceeded/acted well.
              > > Other translations: but nevertheless you have readily confessed.
              > >
              > > Comment: I note that Gordon glosses ‘ganga við’ as
              ´confess’ and
              > Zoega as ‘avow.’ Zoega also gives the middle voice ‘ga=
              ngast
              við’ a=
              > s
              > ‘to confess.’ My modern Icelandic dictionary only gives
              ‘gangast við=
              > ’
              > as ‘to confess’ with no entry for ‘ganga við.â€â=
              „¢ Without
              using these=
              >
              > aids my initial translation was that ´ganga við vel’ had the=
              sense
              > that Einar had acted with good intentions throughout the episode, not
              > only in owning up to riding Freyfaxi, but also in trying to carry out
              > his shepherds duty. I would be interested in any opinions regarding
              > whether ´ganga við’ might have the meaning I indicated.
              > >
              >
              > Well, at least in Danish and Norwegian "å vedgå" means to admit
              > something, such as 'to admit guilt'. The composite verb is formed
              > from 'å gå' (to go) plus the preposition 'ved' (by, at).
              > By putting the preposition in front of the verb, you have composed
              > a new verb 'å ved-gå' that means to admit -- that is, not in the se=
              nse
              > of admitting someone to a building, but in the sense of acknowledging
              > some act, or maybe some fact. (such as 2+2=4)
              > The medio-passive form (-zk) then means that one admits something
              > to oneself.
              >
              > Well, thank you very much for the thought excercises!
              >
              > Best
              > Xigung
              >
              >
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Laurel Bradshaw [mailto:llawryf@e...]
              > > Sent: Saturday, 31 January 2004 9:18 AM
              > > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [norse_course] Hrafnkel 152-176 / Laurel
              > >
              > > 'Hvat mun garprinn vilja, er hann er heim kominn?'
              > > what - should - the gallant fellow - wish - that - he - towards home
              > - came
              > > "What should the gallant fellow want, that he has come back home?"
              > >
              > > segir Hrafnkell. 'Eigi mun þat góðu gegna.'
              > > says - Hrafnkell - not - must - that - good - bode
              > > said Hrafnkel. "That doesn't bode well."
              > >
              > >
              > > Síðan gekk hann út ok sér Freyfaxa ok mælti við hann:=

              > > then - went - he - out - and - sees - Freyfaxi - and - says - to - him
              > > Then he went out and saw Freyfaxi, and said to him:
              > >
              > > 'Illa þykkir mér, at þú ert þann veg til gõrr, fós=
              tri minn,
              > > unpleasing - it seems - to me - as regards - you - are - that -
              > manner - treated - fosterling - of mine
              > > "I am displeased at how you have been treated, my foster-son,
              > >
              > > en heima hafðir þú vit þitt, er þú sagðir mér t=
              il,
              > > but - at home - had - you - wits - your - when - you - told - me -
              > concerning this
              > > but you had your wits about you when you told me of this.
              > >
              > > ok skal þessa hefnt verða. Far þú til liðs þíns.'=

              > > and - shall - this - avenged - be - go - you - to - herd - your
              > > This will be avenged. Go to your herd."
              > >
              > >
              > > En hann gekk þegar upp eptir dalnum til stóðs síns.
              > > and - he - went - at once - up - along - the valley - to - stud - his
              > > And he went immediately up the valley to his stud.
              > >
              > >
              > > Hrafnkell ferr í rekkju sína um kveldit
              > > Hrafnkell - went - to - bed - his - in - the evening
              > > Hrafnkel went to (his) bed that evening
              > >
              > > ok svaf af um nóttina.
              > > and - slept - through - the night
              > > and slept through the night.
              > >
              > > En um morguninn lét hann taka sér hest
              > > and - in - the morning - let - he - take - himself - a horse
              > > In the morning, he had a horse taken
              > >
              > > ok leggja á sõðul ok ríðr upp til sels.
              > > and - put - on - a saddle - and - rode - up - to - sheiling
              > > and saddled for him, and rode up to the sheiling.
              > >
              > > Hann ríðr í blám klæðum.
              > > he - rode - in - black - clothing
              > > He rode wearing black clothes.
              > >
              > > Øxi hafði hann í hendi, en ekki fleira vápna.
              > > an ax - had - he - in - hand - but - no - more - weapons
              > > He had an ax in his hand, but no other weapons.
              > >
              > > Þá hafði Einarr nýrekit fé í kvíar.
              > > then - had - Einarr - newly driven - livestock - into - sheepfold
              > > Einar had just driven the sheep into the fold.
              > >
              > > Hann lá á kvíagarðinum ok talði fé,
              > > he - was lying - on - the sheepfold wall - and - counting - sheep
              > > He was lying on the wall of the sheepfold, counting the sheep,
              > >
              > > en konur váru at mjólka.
              > > and - women - were - at - milking
              > > and the women were milking.
              > >
              > >
              > > Þau heilsuðu honum.
              > > they - greeted - him (Hrafnkell)
              > > They greeted Hrafnkel.
              > >
              > >
              > > Hann spurði, hversu þeim fÅ"ri (foeri) at.
              > > he - asked - how - to them - were going - concerning
              > > He asked how things had been going for them.
              > >
              > >
              > > Einarr svarar: 'Illa hefir mér at farit,
              > > Einarr - answered - unpleasing - has - to me - concerning - faring
              > > Einar answered: "It hasn't been going well for me,
              > >
              > > því at vant varð þriggja tiga ásauðar nær viku,
              > > because - lacking - were - three - of ten - ewes - nearly - a week
              > > because thirty ewes were missing for nearly a week,
              >
              > This is confusing, because in ON it is either "vart" or váruð"
              > But the form you quote is neither. I suspect you have mixed
              > in thje modern Icelandic, but am not sure.
              >
              > >
              > > en nú er fundinn.'
              > > but - now - are - found
              > > but now they've been found."
              > >
              > >
              > > Hann kvazk ekki at slíku telja.
              > > he - said - not - about - such - to count
              > > He (Hrafnkel) said that such things were of no account.
              > >
              > > 'Eða hefir ekki verr at farit?
              > > and/or/but - has - nothing - worse - concerning - faring
              > > "Hasn't anything worse happened?
              > >
              > > Hefir þat ok ekki svá opt til borit sem ván hefir at verit,
              > > has - that - but/though - not - so - often - come to pass - that -
              > expectation - has - happened
              > > It hasn't occured as often as might be expected,
              > >
              > > at fjárins hafi vant verit.
              > > that - of livestock - has - a lack - happened
              > > that the sheep have gone missing.
              > >
              > > En hefir þú ekki nõkkut riðit Freyfaxa mínum hinn fyrra =
              dag?'
              > > but - have - you - not - in any way - ridden - Freyfaxi - my - the -
              > before - day
              > > But didn't you ride my Freyfaxi yesterday?"
              > >
              > >
              > > Hann kvezk eigi þræta þess mega.
              > > he - said - not - deny - this - to be able
              > > Einar said he couldn't deny it.
              > >
              > >
              > > Hrafnkell svarar: 'Fyrir hví reiztu þessu hrossi,
              > > Hrafnkell - answered - for this reason - why - did you ride - this -
              > horse
              > > Hrafnkel answered: "For what reason did you ride this horse
              > >
              > > er þér var bannat, þar er hin váru nóg til,
              > > which - to you - was - forbidden - where - it - was - sufficient -
              > concerning
              > > that was forbidden to you, when there were plenty of others
              > >
              > > er þér var lofat?
              > > which - to you - were - permitted
              > > that you had permission to take?
              > >
              > > Þar munda ek hafa gefit þér upp eina sõk,
              > > there - would - I - have - given quarter - to you - up - one - offense
              > > I would have forgiven you (this) one offense,
              > >
              > > ef ek hefða eigi svá mikit um mælt,
              > > if - I - had - not - so - much - about it - said
              > > if I had not sworn such a great (oath) about this,
              > >
              > > en þó hefir þú vel við gengit.'
              > > but - nevertheless - have -you - readily - towards (this) - confessed
              > > but nevertheless you have readily confessed."
              > >
              > >
              > > ·
              >
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