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RE: [norse_course] Old Norse in English

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  • Metro Bottom
    ... Interesting question! I don t know the answer, but I do know that almost a quarter of the monosyllabic words that I ve studied have ON roots. Also, words
    Message 1 of 26 , Jan 9, 2004
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      > A group of my fellow students interested in language and I
      > often sit around and discuss language. Together, we speak
      > Arabic, French, Spanish, Russian, German, Japanese, and so
      > on. Basically as a group, at least one of us can speak any
      > language you throw at us. We each have our own language
      > interests. I represent Old Norse amongst others. An
      > "argument" that we had one day, in which I was defending Old
      > Norse against a young French scholar and a young Latin
      > scholar, an interesting question was raised that I could not
      > answer. I would like to know how much of English is from Old Norse.
      > That was the argument: whether English is more Latin, French,
      > or Old Norse (aside from it being rooted in German - the
      > Anglo-Saxons). What perent of the English language is rooted
      > in Old Norse. If anyone know the answer to this question, it
      > may greatly aid and strengthen my defense!
      > Thank you,
      > William Calhoun

      Interesting question! I don't know the answer, but I do know that almost a
      quarter of the monosyllabic words that I've studied have ON roots. Also,
      words like 'anger' and 'finger' have ON roots, rather than Germanic roots
      through Anglo-Saxon channels. I'd love to do a computerised count of the
      Oxford Unabridged dictionary and find out the answer. :)
    • William Calhoun
      Sorry if my original question was a bit ambiguous. I meant: How much of common English is rooted in Old Norse. It would be a bit foolish to search all
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 9, 2004
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        Sorry if my original question was a bit ambiguous. I meant: How much of
        common English is rooted in Old Norse. It would be a bit foolish to search
        all scientific names which are conventionally composed of Latin or Greek
        parts. Rather, in everyday English, the Old Norse word is often the
        preferred word in speech: we say 'die' rather than 'expire,' 'raise' rather
        than 'elevate,' and 'narwhal' rather than 'Monodon monoceros.' Thank you
        very much for your help. I always appreciate your input.
        -William Calhoun

        _________________________________________________________________
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      • antonkucinski
        ... e (aside from it being rooted in German — the Anglo-Saxons). What perent o= f the English language is rooted in Old Norse. If anyone know the
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 10, 2004
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          >I would like to know how much of English is from Old Norse.
          > That was the argument: whether English is more Latin, French, or Old Nors=
          e
          > (aside from it being rooted in German — the Anglo-Saxons). What perent o=
          f
          > the English language is rooted in Old Norse. If anyone know the answer t=
          o
          > this question, it may greatly aid and strengthen my defense!

          Hi. I've just recently joined, mostly out of desire for intellectual stimul=
          ation totally unrelated to my professional life and out of a long-standing f=
          ascination with the Germanic languages. Unfortunately, my formal training ha=
          s been limited to several years of German as an undergrad and a semester of =
          Old English in grad school (although I must say I was utterly shocked by how=
          much that one semester of OE helped me in Iceland) so I'm afraid I'm going =
          to reveal my ignorance here....

          It seems to me that in order to address your question one must draw a line =
          between between what is Old Norse and what is the 'German' of the same time =
          period. From what I've read, it would seem that there would be enough overla=
          p to make drawing that line rather difficult. Or have I totally missed the b=
          oat?

          Thanks,

          Jim
        • mona striewe
          well, if you trace back the roots of common daily English words, as well as German or modern Scandinavian words, you ll come in many cases to the same roots
          Message 4 of 26 , Jan 10, 2004
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            well, if you trace back the roots of common daily English words, as well as
            German or modern Scandinavian words, you' ll come in many cases to the same
            roots anyway. So, if a word in English, or its preceding form in Old
            English, looks quite similar to an Old Norse word, this can either mean it
            came as a word borrowed from Old Norse into English at a certain time
            (things like this happens often with words attached to certain things or
            techniques which are introduced to places where they were not know before)
            or it just means they share the same origin in very early Germanic times.
            Especially with everyday words related to household, cattle, tools, etc. you
            find a lot such words which are until to day very very similar all across
            the Germanic languages, from German to Icelandic. This does not mean they
            came to be borrowed from one language into the other at a certain point but
            just have common ancestors. This is by the way all a very interesting topic
            for long winter evenings with some big etymological dictionaries and a nice
            pot of tea :-)
            mona


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Haukur Thorgeirsson" <haukurth@...>
            To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 3:38 AM
            Subject: Re: [norse_course] Old Norse in English


            > > What perent of the English language
            > > is rooted in Old Norse?
            >
            > I don't know and the question isn't really
            > well defined. Here are two suggestions for
            > better defined questions:
            >
            > 1. What percentage of the daily vocabulary of
            > English (say, the 2000 most common words) is
            > derived from Old Norse?
            >
            > 2. What percentage of the total dictionary
            > vocabulary of English is derived from Old Norse words?
            >
            > I don't know about the absolute percentages but
            > it is clear that the answer to question 2 is significantly
            > lower than the answer to question 1. Most of the "extended"
            > vocabulary of English is Graeco-Latin goobledygook.
            >
            > If you want my wild guess rather than your own then maybe
            > 10-20% for question 1 and 1-2% for question 2. (But even
            > those questions aren't very carefully defined.)
            >
            > There are certainly very many very common English words
            > derived from Old Norse. Words like 'take' and 'knife' and
            > even the pronoun 'they'.
            >
            > Kveðja,
            > Haukur
            >
            > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
            >
            > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
            >
            > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
            >
            > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
          • Sarah Bowen
            I ll join you with the tea, Mona!! Sarah. ... From: mona striewe To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 2:59 PM Subject: Re:
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 10, 2004
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              I'll join you with the tea, Mona!!
               
              Sarah.
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 2:59 PM
              Subject: Re: [norse_course] Old Norse in English

              well, if you trace back the roots of common daily English words, as well as
              German or modern Scandinavian words, you' ll come in many cases to the same
              roots anyway. So, if a word in English, or its preceding form in Old
              English, looks quite similar to an Old Norse word, this can either mean it
              came as a word borrowed from Old Norse into English at a certain time
              (things like this happens often with words attached to certain things or
              techniques which are introduced to places where they were not know before)
              or it just means they share the same origin in very early Germanic times.
              Especially with everyday words related to household, cattle, tools, etc. you
              find a lot such words which are until to day very very similar all across
              the Germanic languages, from German to Icelandic. This does not mean they
              came to be borrowed from one language into the other at a certain point but
              just have common ancestors. This is by the way all a very interesting topic
              for long winter evenings with some big etymological dictionaries and a nice
              pot of tea :-)
              mona


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Haukur Thorgeirsson" <haukurth@...>
              To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 3:38 AM
              Subject: Re: [norse_course] Old Norse in English


              > > What perent of the English language
              > > is rooted in Old Norse?
              >
              > I don't know and the question isn't really
              > well defined. Here are two suggestions for
              > better defined questions:
              >
              > 1. What percentage of the daily vocabulary of
              > English (say, the 2000 most common words) is
              > derived from Old Norse?
              >
              > 2. What percentage of the total dictionary
              > vocabulary of English is derived from Old Norse words?
              >
              > I don't know about the absolute percentages but
              > it is clear that the answer to question 2 is significantly
              > lower than the answer to question 1. Most of the "extended"
              > vocabulary of English is Graeco-Latin goobledygook.
              >
              > If you want my wild guess rather than your own then maybe
              > 10-20% for question 1 and 1-2% for question 2. (But even
              > those questions aren't very carefully defined.)
              >
              > There are certainly very many very common English words
              > derived from Old Norse. Words like 'take' and 'knife' and
              > even the pronoun 'they'.
              >
              > Kveðja,
              > Haukur
              >
              > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
              >
              > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
              >
              > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
              >
              > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              >  norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >



              A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.

              Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/

              To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:

              norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com




              Yahoo! Groups Links

            • William Calhoun
              Well, around 866 A.D.the Vikings began to heavily invade the English coast where the Anglo-Saxons were living. Old Norse words in English come from this time
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 10, 2004
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                Well, around 866 A.D.the Vikings began to heavily invade the English coast
                where the Anglo-Saxons were living. Old Norse words in English come from
                this time period when the Norse conquered York and other Anglo-Saxon cities
                (more accurately Northumbrian, I believe). The Old Norse words mixed with
                the Anglo-Saxon language. Just because the Old Norse language and the
                German language taken from mainland Europe to England with the Anglo-Saxons
                where related languages, does not mean that the vocabularies for each
                language were the same. When looking at etymology, we can tell which words
                came from Old Norse when the Vikings invaded and which words were already in
                the Anglo-Saxon language. Take a look at some words on Merriam-Webster's
                website. Look up a few words off the top of your head that sound Germanic
                and see when they entered the language (not the date that Merriam-Webster
                provides, which is the date the modern word entered the language, but the
                etymology: usually Old Norse for the Vikings or Old High German for the
                Anglo-Saxons).( www.m-w.com).
                -William

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              • Emily na
                ... whoa, so I could, theoreticly, read Beowolf, no sweat? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 10, 2004
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                  --- mona striewe <mona@...> wrote:
                  > well, if you trace back the roots of common daily
                  > English words, as well as
                  > German or modern Scandinavian words, you' ll come in
                  > many cases to the same
                  > roots anyway. So, if a word in English, or its
                  > preceding form in Old
                  > English, looks quite similar to an Old Norse word,
                  > this can either mean it
                  > came as a word borrowed from Old Norse into English
                  > at a certain time
                  > (things like this happens often with words attached
                  > to certain things or
                  > techniques which are introduced to places where they
                  > were not know before)
                  > or it just means they share the same origin in very
                  > early Germanic times.
                  > Especially with everyday words related to household,
                  > cattle, tools, etc. you
                  > find a lot such words which are until to day very
                  > very similar all across
                  > the Germanic languages, from German to Icelandic.
                  > This does not mean they
                  > came to be borrowed from one language into the other
                  > at a certain point but
                  > just have common ancestors. This is by the way all a
                  > very interesting topic
                  > for long winter evenings with some big etymological
                  > dictionaries and a nice
                  > pot of tea :-)
                  > mona
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Haukur Thorgeirsson" <haukurth@...>
                  > To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 3:38 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [norse_course] Old Norse in English
                  >
                  >
                  > > > What perent of the English language
                  > > > is rooted in Old Norse?
                  > >
                  > > I don't know and the question isn't really
                  > > well defined. Here are two suggestions for
                  > > better defined questions:
                  > >
                  > > 1. What percentage of the daily vocabulary of
                  > > English (say, the 2000 most common words) is
                  > > derived from Old Norse?
                  > >
                  > > 2. What percentage of the total dictionary
                  > > vocabulary of English is derived from Old Norse
                  > words?
                  > >
                  > > I don't know about the absolute percentages but
                  > > it is clear that the answer to question 2 is
                  > significantly
                  > > lower than the answer to question 1. Most of the
                  > "extended"
                  > > vocabulary of English is Graeco-Latin
                  > goobledygook.
                  > >
                  > > If you want my wild guess rather than your own
                  > then maybe
                  > > 10-20% for question 1 and 1-2% for question 2.
                  > (But even
                  > > those questions aren't very carefully defined.)
                  > >
                  > > There are certainly very many very common English
                  > words
                  > > derived from Old Norse. Words like 'take' and
                  > 'knife' and
                  > > even the pronoun 'they'.
                  > >
                  > > Kve<eth>ja,
                  > > Haukur
                  > >
                  > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
                  > >
                  > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
                  > >
                  > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an
                  > e-mail to:
                  > >
                  > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                  > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  whoa, so I could, theoreticly, read Beowolf, no sweat?

                  __________________________________
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                • Emily na
                  ... hello, Jim. join the club. The extent of my Norse knowledge was taking a course over the internet. my only question to the whole deal is, how on earth
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 10, 2004
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                    --- antonkucinski <jmcd@...> wrote:
                    > >I would like to know how much of English is from
                    > Old Norse.
                    > > That was the argument: whether English is more
                    > Latin, French, or Old Nors=
                    > e
                    > > (aside from it being rooted in German � the
                    > Anglo-Saxons). What perent o=
                    > f
                    > > the English language is rooted in Old Norse. If
                    > anyone know the answer t=
                    > o
                    > > this question, it may greatly aid and strengthen
                    > my defense!
                    >
                    > Hi. I've just recently joined, mostly out of desire
                    > for intellectual stimul=
                    > ation totally unrelated to my professional life and
                    > out of a long-standing f=
                    > ascination with the Germanic languages.
                    > Unfortunately, my formal training ha=
                    > s been limited to several years of German as an
                    > undergrad and a semester of =
                    > Old English in grad school (although I must say I
                    > was utterly shocked by how=
                    > much that one semester of OE helped me in Iceland)
                    > so I'm afraid I'm going =
                    > to reveal my ignorance here....
                    >
                    > It seems to me that in order to address your
                    > question one must draw a line =
                    > between between what is Old Norse and what is the
                    > 'German' of the same time =
                    > period. From what I've read, it would seem that
                    > there would be enough overla=
                    > p to make drawing that line rather difficult. Or
                    > have I totally missed the b=
                    > oat?
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    >
                    > Jim
                    >
                    >
                    hello, Jim. join the club. The extent of my Norse
                    knowledge was taking a course over the internet. my
                    only question to the whole deal is, how on earth could
                    you figure out the precentage of Norse, French, and
                    Latin of English, short of going through the
                    dictionary and categorizing each word....?

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                  • William Calhoun
                    Yes, that is how it would be done if one were to figure out that exact percentage. The statistic probably already exists buried somewhere in an archive in
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jan 10, 2004
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                      Yes, that is how it would be done if one were to figure out that exact
                      percentage. The statistic probably already exists buried somewhere in an
                      archive in Oxford, England. With the advent of computer databases it could
                      be very simple. It would not be too hard to look through the dictionary at
                      each Old Norse word. Someone does it anyway. The dictionary was compiled
                      at one point and is edited frequently.

                      _________________________________________________________________
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                    • xigung
                      ... much of ... search ... Greek ... rather ... Thank you ... I recall word counts in Jan de Vries dictionary, that ought to give a good idea of approximate
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jan 13, 2004
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                        --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "William Calhoun"
                        <kubrick36@h...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Sorry if my original question was a bit ambiguous. I meant: How
                        much of
                        > common English is rooted in Old Norse. It would be a bit foolish to
                        search
                        > all scientific names which are conventionally composed of Latin or
                        Greek
                        > parts. Rather, in everyday English, the Old Norse word is often the
                        > preferred word in speech: we say 'die' rather than 'expire,' 'raise'
                        rather
                        > than 'elevate,' and 'narwhal' rather than 'Monodon monoceros.'
                        Thank you
                        > very much for your help. I always appreciate your input.
                        > -William Calhoun



                        I recall word counts in Jan de Vries' dictionary,
                        that ought to give a good idea of approximate
                        percentages. (though the counts may go the wrong
                        way, I am not sure right now)
                        To 'raise' from Old norse? Perhaps. But it is also
                        a more general Germanic word. For example OHG risan,
                        or Gothic ur-reisan.
                        Also 'finger' was mentioned. But finger is also in
                        all the West-Germanic dialects that I know of.
                        (English being one of them) Also in Gothic figgrs.
                        'Knife' might make a case more clear cut, since
                        German has 'Messer' here. But Webster's list
                        'knif' also as Middle Low German, and does not
                        mention it as being from Norse. (OE cnif)
                        Personally, I only know very few clear cut examples.
                        One seems to be 'to cast'.

                        My impression is that English is mostly West Germanic
                        with a lot of French loans.

                        Xigung






                        > _________________________________________________________________
                        > Find out everything you need to know about Las Vegas here for that
                        getaway.
                        > http://special.msn.com/msnbc/vivalasvegas.armx
                      • William Calhoun
                        I agree. English is for the most part West Germanic and we do have a ton of words from Old French but English also has a surprising number of Norse words as
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jan 16, 2004
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                          I agree. English is for the most part West Germanic and we do have a ton of
                          words from Old French but English also has a surprising number of Norse
                          words as well. I would just like to know that number.
                          -William


                          >From: "xigung" <xigung@...>
                          >Reply-To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: [norse_course] Re: Old Norse in English
                          >Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 17:26:46 -0000
                          >
                          >--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "William Calhoun"
                          ><kubrick36@h...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Sorry if my original question was a bit ambiguous. I meant: How
                          >much of
                          > > common English is rooted in Old Norse. It would be a bit foolish to
                          >search
                          > > all scientific names which are conventionally composed of Latin or
                          >Greek
                          > > parts. Rather, in everyday English, the Old Norse word is often the
                          > > preferred word in speech: we say 'die' rather than 'expire,' 'raise'
                          >rather
                          > > than 'elevate,' and 'narwhal' rather than 'Monodon monoceros.'
                          >Thank you
                          > > very much for your help. I always appreciate your input.
                          > > -William Calhoun
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >I recall word counts in Jan de Vries' dictionary,
                          >that ought to give a good idea of approximate
                          >percentages. (though the counts may go the wrong
                          >way, I am not sure right now)
                          >To 'raise' from Old norse? Perhaps. But it is also
                          >a more general Germanic word. For example OHG risan,
                          >or Gothic ur-reisan.
                          >Also 'finger' was mentioned. But finger is also in
                          >all the West-Germanic dialects that I know of.
                          >(English being one of them) Also in Gothic figgrs.
                          >'Knife' might make a case more clear cut, since
                          >German has 'Messer' here. But Webster's list
                          >'knif' also as Middle Low German, and does not
                          >mention it as being from Norse. (OE cnif)
                          >Personally, I only know very few clear cut examples.
                          >One seems to be 'to cast'.
                          >
                          >My impression is that English is mostly West Germanic
                          >with a lot of French loans.
                          >
                          >Xigung
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > > _________________________________________________________________
                          > > Find out everything you need to know about Las Vegas here for that
                          >getaway.
                          > > http://special.msn.com/msnbc/vivalasvegas.armx
                          >

                          _________________________________________________________________
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                        • Kenneth Shaw
                          Howdy from Dallas! This subject is dear to my heart, and I a few days away from finishing a list of modern English words that come directly from Saxon words.
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jan 16, 2004
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                            Howdy from Dallas!

                            This subject is dear to my heart, and I a few days away from finishing a list of
                            modern English words that come directly from Saxon words.

                            The next step, for me, will be find the Old Norse words that the Saxon words
                            grew out of.

                            I will be able to email the English-Saxon wordlist if anyone is interested.

                            Thanks!

                            Ken Shaw
                          • erek gass
                            I don t have a specific number, but the Norse influence IS substantial. A word as common as sky , for instance, is Norse. Town names ending in ham shew
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jan 16, 2004
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                              I don't have a specific number, but the Norse influence IS substantial. A word as common as "sky", for instance, is Norse. Town names ending in "ham" shew the Norse influence (if you'll notice, they predominate in origin in the North of England, the area that was controlled by the "Danes"). Another curiosity came to mind just the other day, when I was reading an internet article that stated that modern English has 161 strong verbs, and that all are of Old English ("Anglo-Saxon" if you prefer) origin. The author had either forgotten, or never knew, that "take, took, taken" is from over from Norse, and replaced in common usage "nim, nam, nomen" (a verb still found in most dictionaries, but seldom used by anyone these days, and in at least one dictionary has been reduced to a weak verb "nim, nimmed, nimmed" -- I wonder whether nim was included amongst the 161 [since they weren't specified]).

                              Erek Gass

                              --- "William Calhoun" <kubrick36@...> wrote:
                              I agree. English is for the most part West Germanic and we do have a ton of
                              words from Old French but English also has a surprising number of Norse
                              words as well. I would just like to know that number.
                              -William


                              >From: "xigung" <xigung@...>
                              >Reply-To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                              >To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                              >Subject: [norse_course] Re: Old Norse in English
                              >Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 17:26:46 -0000
                              >
                              >--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "William Calhoun"
                              ><kubrick36@h...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Sorry if my original question was a bit ambiguous. I meant: How
                              >much of
                              > > common English is rooted in Old Norse. It would be a bit foolish to
                              >search
                              > > all scientific names which are conventionally composed of Latin or
                              >Greek
                              > > parts. Rather, in everyday English, the Old Norse word is often the
                              > > preferred word in speech: we say 'die' rather than 'expire,' 'raise'
                              >rather
                              > > than 'elevate,' and 'narwhal' rather than 'Monodon monoceros.'
                              >Thank you
                              > > very much for your help. I always appreciate your input.
                              > > -William Calhoun
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >I recall word counts in Jan de Vries' dictionary,
                              >that ought to give a good idea of approximate
                              >percentages. (though the counts may go the wrong
                              >way, I am not sure right now)
                              >To 'raise' from Old norse? Perhaps. But it is also
                              >a more general Germanic word. For example OHG risan,
                              >or Gothic ur-reisan.
                              >Also 'finger' was mentioned. But finger is also in
                              >all the West-Germanic dialects that I know of.
                              >(English being one of them) Also in Gothic figgrs.
                              >'Knife' might make a case more clear cut, since
                              >German has 'Messer' here. But Webster's list
                              >'knif' also as Middle Low German, and does not
                              >mention it as being from Norse. (OE cnif)
                              >Personally, I only know very few clear cut examples.
                              >One seems to be 'to cast'.
                              >
                              >My impression is that English is mostly West Germanic
                              >with a lot of French loans.
                              >
                              >Xigung
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > > _________________________________________________________________
                              > > Find out everything you need to know about Las Vegas here for that
                              >getaway.
                              > > http://special.msn.com/msnbc/vivalasvegas.armx
                              >

                              _________________________________________________________________
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                            • erek gass
                              I don t have a specific number, but the Norse influence IS substantial. A word as common as sky , for instance, is Norse. Town names ending in ham shew
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jan 16, 2004
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                                I don't have a specific number, but the Norse influence IS substantial. A word as common as "sky", for instance, is Norse. Town names ending in "ham" shew the Norse influence (if you'll notice, they predominate in origin in the North of England, the area that was controlled by the "Danes"). Another curiosity came to mind just the other day, when I was reading an internet article that stated that modern English has 161 strong verbs, and that all are of Old English ("Anglo-Saxon" if you prefer) origin. The author had either forgotten, or never knew, that "take, took, taken" is from over from Norse, and replaced in common usage "nim, nam, nomen" (a verb still found in most dictionaries, but seldom used by anyone these days, and in at least one dictionary has been reduced to a weak verb "nim, nimmed, nimmed" -- I wonder whether nim were included amongst the 161 [since they weren't specified]).

                                Erek Gass

                                --- "William Calhoun" <kubrick36@...> wrote:
                                I agree. English is for the most part West Germanic and we do have a ton of
                                words from Old French but English also has a surprising number of Norse
                                words as well. I would just like to know that number.
                                -William


                                >From: "xigung" <xigung@...>
                                >Reply-To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                                >To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                                >Subject: [norse_course] Re: Old Norse in English
                                >Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 17:26:46 -0000
                                >
                                >--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "William Calhoun"
                                ><kubrick36@h...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Sorry if my original question was a bit ambiguous. I meant: How
                                >much of
                                > > common English is rooted in Old Norse. It would be a bit foolish to
                                >search
                                > > all scientific names which are conventionally composed of Latin or
                                >Greek
                                > > parts. Rather, in everyday English, the Old Norse word is often the
                                > > preferred word in speech: we say 'die' rather than 'expire,' 'raise'
                                >rather
                                > > than 'elevate,' and 'narwhal' rather than 'Monodon monoceros.'
                                >Thank you
                                > > very much for your help. I always appreciate your input.
                                > > -William Calhoun
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >I recall word counts in Jan de Vries' dictionary,
                                >that ought to give a good idea of approximate
                                >percentages. (though the counts may go the wrong
                                >way, I am not sure right now)
                                >To 'raise' from Old norse? Perhaps. But it is also
                                >a more general Germanic word. For example OHG risan,
                                >or Gothic ur-reisan.
                                >Also 'finger' was mentioned. But finger is also in
                                >all the West-Germanic dialects that I know of.
                                >(English being one of them) Also in Gothic figgrs.
                                >'Knife' might make a case more clear cut, since
                                >German has 'Messer' here. But Webster's list
                                >'knif' also as Middle Low German, and does not
                                >mention it as being from Norse. (OE cnif)
                                >Personally, I only know very few clear cut examples.
                                >One seems to be 'to cast'.
                                >
                                >My impression is that English is mostly West Germanic
                                >with a lot of French loans.
                                >
                                >Xigung
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > > _________________________________________________________________
                                > > Find out everything you need to know about Las Vegas here for that
                                >getaway.
                                > > http://special.msn.com/msnbc/vivalasvegas.armx
                                >

                                _________________________________________________________________
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                              • William Calhoun
                                I should like to see such a list when you have finished completing it if you don t mind and it isn t too massive a compilation! -William ...
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jan 16, 2004
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                                  I should like to see such a list when you have finished completing it if you
                                  don't mind and it isn't too massive a compilation!
                                  -William


                                  >From: Kenneth Shaw <kshaw@...>
                                  >Reply-To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                                  >To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                                  >Subject: RE: [norse_course] Re: Old Norse in English
                                  >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:52:49 -0600 (CST)
                                  >
                                  >Howdy from Dallas!
                                  >
                                  >This subject is dear to my heart, and I a few days away from finishing a
                                  >list of
                                  >modern English words that come directly from Saxon words.
                                  >
                                  >The next step, for me, will be find the Old Norse words that the Saxon
                                  >words
                                  >grew out of.
                                  >
                                  >I will be able to email the English-Saxon wordlist if anyone is interested.
                                  >
                                  >Thanks!
                                  >
                                  >Ken Shaw
                                  >

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                                • Alan Thompson
                                  The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language (Ed. David Crystal) claims that, quote, many general words (of Norse origin) entered the language, nearly
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jan 16, 2004
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                                    The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language (Ed. David Crystal)
                                    claims that, quote, "many general words (of Norse origin) entered the
                                    language, nearly 1,000 eventually becoming part of Standard English.
                                    Only c. 150 of these words appear in Old English manuscripts, the
                                    earliest in the treaty between Alfred and Guthrum, and in the northern
                                    manuscripts of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. They include landing, score,
                                    beck fellow, take, husting and steersman, as well as many words which
                                    did not survive in later English )mostly terms to do with Danish law and
                                    culture, which died away after the Norman Conquest. The vast majority of
                                    loans do not begin to appear until the early 12th century. These include
                                    many of our modern words which use sk- sounds (an Old Norse feature),
                                    such as skirt, sky and skin, as well as most of the words listed below.
                                    The closeness of the contact between the Anglo-Saxons and the Danish
                                    settlers is clearly shown by the extensive borrowings. Some of the
                                    commonest words in Modern English came into the language at that time,
                                    such as both, same, get and give. Even the personal pronoun system was
                                    affected, with they, them and their replacing the earlier forms. And the
                                    most remarkable invasion of all - Old Norse influenced the verb to be.
                                    The replacement of sindon by are is almost certainly the result of
                                    Scandinavian influence, as is the spread of the third person singular -s
                                    ending in the present tense of other verbs.

                                    A few more Norse loans...again, anger, awkward, bag, band, bank, birth,
                                    brink, bull, cake, call, clip, crawl, crook, die, dirt, dregs, egg,
                                    flat, fog, freckle, gap, gasp, get, guess, happy, husband, ill, keel,
                                    kid, knife, law, leg, loan, low, muggy, neck, odd, outlaw, race, raise,
                                    ransack, reindeer, rid, root, rugged, scant, scare, scowl, scrap, seat,
                                    seem, silver, sister, skill, skirt, sly, smile, snub, sprint, steak,
                                    take, thrift, Thursday, tight, trust, want, weak, window"

                                    While the Encyclopedia says nearly 1,000 words, A.C. Baugh in A History
                                    of the English Language suggests that while about this number of words
                                    are of almost certain Norse origin, at least as many again are of
                                    probable Norse origin.

                                    I hope this helps

                                    -Alyssean

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: xigung [mailto:xigung@...]
                                    Sent: Wednesday, 14 January 2004 4:27 AM
                                    To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [norse_course] Re: Old Norse in English

                                    --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "William Calhoun"
                                    <kubrick36@h...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Sorry if my original question was a bit ambiguous. I meant: How
                                    much of
                                    > common English is rooted in Old Norse. It would be a bit foolish to
                                    search
                                    > all scientific names which are conventionally composed of Latin or
                                    Greek
                                    > parts. Rather, in everyday English, the Old Norse word is often the
                                    > preferred word in speech: we say 'die' rather than 'expire,' 'raise'
                                    rather
                                    > than 'elevate,' and 'narwhal' rather than 'Monodon monoceros.'
                                    Thank you
                                    > very much for your help. I always appreciate your input.
                                    > -William Calhoun



                                    I recall word counts in Jan de Vries' dictionary,
                                    that ought to give a good idea of approximate
                                    percentages. (though the counts may go the wrong
                                    way, I am not sure right now)
                                    To 'raise' from Old norse? Perhaps. But it is also
                                    a more general Germanic word. For example OHG risan,
                                    or Gothic ur-reisan.
                                    Also 'finger' was mentioned. But finger is also in
                                    all the West-Germanic dialects that I know of.
                                    (English being one of them) Also in Gothic figgrs.
                                    'Knife' might make a case more clear cut, since
                                    German has 'Messer' here. But Webster's list
                                    'knif' also as Middle Low German, and does not
                                    mention it as being from Norse. (OE cnif)
                                    Personally, I only know very few clear cut examples.
                                    One seems to be 'to cast'.

                                    My impression is that English is mostly West Germanic
                                    with a lot of French loans.

                                    Xigung






                                    > _________________________________________________________________
                                    > Find out everything you need to know about Las Vegas here for that
                                    getaway.
                                    > http://special.msn.com/msnbc/vivalasvegas.armx


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                                  • lilyby2003
                                    Hi, I have completed my master thesis on the relation of Old Nordic and English only recently. My advice to those interested in Nordic loan words is
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jan 17, 2004
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                                      Hi, I have completed my master thesis on the relation of Old Nordic
                                      and English only recently. My advice to those interested in Nordic
                                      loan words is "Scandinavian Loan Words in Middle English" by Erik
                                      Björkman. The book is quite old (1900), but is always cited as an
                                      authority. It has been very helpful to me, since it does not only
                                      name the loan words that are doubtlessly attested for English, but
                                      also discusses those which cannot be clearly assigned to one
                                      language. Furthermore, Björkman explains the rules (most of which are
                                      based on phonological knowledge) by which Scandinavian loan words can
                                      be identified. Despite the title, also Old English occurrences are
                                      listed and discussed.
                                      I hope this helps those interested in the matter.

                                      See you, Lily




                                      --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "William Calhoun"
                                      <kubrick36@h...> wrote:
                                      > I agree. English is for the most part West Germanic and we do have
                                      a ton of
                                      > words from Old French but English also has a surprising number of
                                      Norse
                                      > words as well. I would just like to know that number.
                                      > -William
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > >From: "xigung" <xigung@y...>
                                      > >Reply-To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                                      > >To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                                      > >Subject: [norse_course] Re: Old Norse in English
                                      > >Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 17:26:46 -0000
                                      > >
                                      > >--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "William Calhoun"
                                      > ><kubrick36@h...> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Sorry if my original question was a bit ambiguous. I meant: How
                                      > >much of
                                      > > > common English is rooted in Old Norse. It would be a bit
                                      foolish to
                                      > >search
                                      > > > all scientific names which are conventionally composed of Latin
                                      or
                                      > >Greek
                                      > > > parts. Rather, in everyday English, the Old Norse word is
                                      often the
                                      > > > preferred word in speech: we say 'die' rather
                                      than 'expire,' 'raise'
                                      > >rather
                                      > > > than 'elevate,' and 'narwhal' rather than 'Monodon monoceros.'
                                      > >Thank you
                                      > > > very much for your help. I always appreciate your input.
                                      > > > -William Calhoun
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >I recall word counts in Jan de Vries' dictionary,
                                      > >that ought to give a good idea of approximate
                                      > >percentages. (though the counts may go the wrong
                                      > >way, I am not sure right now)
                                      > >To 'raise' from Old norse? Perhaps. But it is also
                                      > >a more general Germanic word. For example OHG risan,
                                      > >or Gothic ur-reisan.
                                      > >Also 'finger' was mentioned. But finger is also in
                                      > >all the West-Germanic dialects that I know of.
                                      > >(English being one of them) Also in Gothic figgrs.
                                      > >'Knife' might make a case more clear cut, since
                                      > >German has 'Messer' here. But Webster's list
                                      > >'knif' also as Middle Low German, and does not
                                      > >mention it as being from Norse. (OE cnif)
                                      > >Personally, I only know very few clear cut examples.
                                      > >One seems to be 'to cast'.
                                      > >
                                      > >My impression is that English is mostly West Germanic
                                      > >with a lot of French loans.
                                      > >
                                      > >Xigung
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > >
                                      _________________________________________________________________
                                      > > > Find out everything you need to know about Las Vegas here for
                                      that
                                      > >getaway.
                                      > > > http://special.msn.com/msnbc/vivalasvegas.armx
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > _________________________________________________________________
                                      > Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN.
                                      > http://wine.msn.com/
                                    • Sarah Bowen
                                      What a fascinating project Ken! I d love to hear how you tackled this and also have a look at the word-list. All the best with completing it! Cheers, Sarah.
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jan 17, 2004
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                                        What a fascinating project Ken!  I'd love to hear how you tackled this and also have a look at the word-list.
                                         
                                        All the best with completing it!
                                        Cheers,
                                        Sarah.
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 3:52 PM
                                        Subject: RE: [norse_course] Re: Old Norse in English

                                        Howdy from Dallas!

                                        This subject is dear to my heart, and I a few days away from finishing a list of
                                        modern English words that come directly from Saxon words.

                                        The next step, for me, will be find the Old Norse words that the Saxon words
                                        grew out of.

                                        I will be able to email the English-Saxon wordlist if anyone is interested.

                                        Thanks!

                                        Ken Shaw



                                        A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.

                                        Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/

                                        To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:

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                                      • Ian Hunter
                                        ... from Dallas! ... that come directly from Saxon words. ... That would be a BIG YES PLEASE !! cheers Ian
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jan 19, 2004
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                                          --- Kenneth Shaw <kshaw@...> wrote: > Howdy
                                          from Dallas!>
                                          > This subject is dear to my heart, and I a few days
                                          > away from finishing a list of modern English words
                                          that come directly from Saxon words.
                                          >
                                          > The next step, for me, will be find the Old Norse
                                          > words that the Saxon words grew out of.
                                          > I will be able to email the English-Saxon wordlist
                                          > if anyone is interested.
                                          > Thanks!
                                          > Ken Shaw

                                          That would be a BIG YES PLEASE !!
                                          cheers
                                          Ian

                                          ________________________________________________________________________
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                                        • Terje Ellefsen
                                          I too am interested. :) Terje. ... _________________________________________________________________ Se hvordan du blir kvitt SPAM/Søppelpost
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Jan 20, 2004
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                                            I too am interested. :)


                                            Terje.


                                            >From: Ian Hunter <nattuggan@...>
                                            >Reply-To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                                            >To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                                            >Subject: RE: [norse_course] Re: Old Norse in English
                                            >Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 14:31:28 +0000 (GMT)
                                            >
                                            > --- Kenneth Shaw <kshaw@...> wrote: > Howdy
                                            >from Dallas!>
                                            > > This subject is dear to my heart, and I a few days
                                            > > away from finishing a list of modern English words
                                            >that come directly from Saxon words.
                                            > >
                                            > > The next step, for me, will be find the Old Norse
                                            > > words that the Saxon words grew out of.
                                            > > I will be able to email the English-Saxon wordlist
                                            > > if anyone is interested.
                                            > > Thanks!
                                            > > Ken Shaw
                                            >
                                            >That would be a BIG YES PLEASE !!
                                            >cheers
                                            >Ian
                                            >
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                                          • pdhanssen@aol.com
                                            Takk, Ken. Ég líka . Jeg også . Me too . Takk, Ken. Me vennligste hilsener, Paul Hansen.
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Jan 20, 2004
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                                              Takk, Ken.

                                              Ég líka .
                                              Jeg også .
                                              Me too .

                                              Takk, Ken.
                                              Me vennligste hilsener,
                                              Paul Hansen.




                                              In a message dated 1/19/2004 9:31:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, nattuggan@... writes:

                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- Kenneth Shaw <kshaw@...> wrote: > Howdy
                                              > from Dallas!>
                                              > > This subject is dear to my heart, and I a few days
                                              > > away from finishing a list of modern English words
                                              > that come directly from Saxon words.
                                              > >
                                              > > The next step, for me, will be find the Old Norse
                                              > > words that the Saxon words grew out of.
                                              > > I will be able to email the English-Saxon wordlist
                                              > > if anyone is interested.
                                              > > Thanks!
                                              > > Ken Shaw
                                              >
                                              > That would be a BIG YES PLEASE !!
                                              > cheers
                                              > Ian
                                              >
                                              > ________________________________________________________________________
                                              > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
                                              > your friends today! Download Messenger Now
                                              > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
                                              >
                                              > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
                                              >
                                              > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
                                              >
                                              > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail
                                              > to:
                                              >
                                              > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              >
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                                              >
                                              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                            • pdhanssen@aol.com
                                              There s a book entitled The Viking Legacy by Geipel dealing with the Norse contribution/influence to the English language.
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Jan 20, 2004
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                                                There's a book entitled "The Viking Legacy" by Geipel
                                                dealing with the Norse contribution/influence to the English language.




                                                In a message dated 1/17/2004 1:04:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, athompso@... writes:

                                                >
                                                >
                                                > The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language (Ed. David Crystal)
                                                > claims that, quote, "many general words (of Norse origin) entered the
                                                > language, nearly 1,000 eventually becoming part of Standard English.
                                                > Only c. 150 of these words appear in Old English manuscripts, the
                                                > earliest in the treaty between Alfred and Guthrum, and in the northern
                                                > manuscripts of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. They include landing, score,
                                                > beck fellow, take, husting and steersman, as well as many words which
                                                > did not survive in later English )mostly terms to do with Danish law and
                                                > culture, which died away after the Norman Conquest. The vast majority of
                                                > loans do not begin to appear until the early 12th century. These include
                                                > many of our modern words which use sk- sounds (an Old Norse feature),
                                                > such as skirt, sky and skin, as well as most of the words listed below.
                                                > The closeness of the contact between the Anglo-Saxons and the Danish
                                                > settlers is clearly shown by the extensive borrowings. Some of the
                                                > commonest words in Modern English came into the language at that time,
                                                > such as both, same, get and give. Even the personal pronoun system was
                                                > affected, with they, them and their replacing the earlier forms. And the
                                                > most remarkable invasion of all - Old Norse influenced the verb to be.
                                                > The replacement of sindon by are is almost certainly the result of
                                                > Scandinavian influence, as is the spread of the third person singular -s
                                                > ending in the present tense of other verbs.
                                                >
                                                > A few more Norse loans...again, anger, awkward, bag, band, bank, birth,
                                                > brink, bull, cake, call, clip, crawl, crook, die, dirt, dregs, egg,
                                                > flat, fog, freckle, gap, gasp, get, guess, happy, husband, ill, keel,
                                                > kid, knife, law, leg, loan, low, muggy, neck, odd, outlaw, race, raise,
                                                > ransack, reindeer, rid, root, rugged, scant, scare, scowl, scrap, seat,
                                                > seem, silver, sister, skill, skirt, sly, smile, snub, sprint, steak,
                                                > take, thrift, Thursday, tight, trust, want, weak, window"
                                                >
                                                > While the Encyclopedia says nearly 1,000 words, A.C. Baugh in A History
                                                > of the English Language suggests that while about this number of words
                                                > are of almost certain Norse origin, at least as many again are of
                                                > probable Norse origin.
                                                >
                                                > I hope this helps
                                                >
                                                > -Alyssean
                                                >
                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: xigung [mailto:xigung@...]
                                                > Sent: Wednesday, 14 January 2004 4:27 AM
                                                > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Subject: [norse_course] Re: Old Norse in English
                                                >
                                                > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "William Calhoun"
                                                > <kubrick36@h...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Sorry if my original question was a bit ambiguous. I meant: How
                                                > much of
                                                > > common English is rooted in Old Norse. It would be a bit foolish to
                                                > search
                                                > > all scientific names which are conventionally composed of Latin or
                                                > Greek
                                                > > parts. Rather, in everyday English, the Old Norse word is often the
                                                > > preferred word in speech: we say 'die' rather than 'expire,' 'raise'
                                                > rather
                                                > > than 'elevate,' and 'narwhal' rather than 'Monodon monoceros.'
                                                > Thank you
                                                > > very much for your help. I always appreciate your input.
                                                > > -William Calhoun
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > I recall word counts in Jan de Vries' dictionary,
                                                > that ought to give a good idea of approximate
                                                > percentages. (though the counts may go the wrong
                                                > way, I am not sure right now)
                                                > To 'raise' from Old norse? Perhaps. But it is also
                                                > a more general Germanic word. For example OHG risan,
                                                > or Gothic ur-reisan.
                                                > Also 'finger' was mentioned. But finger is also in
                                                > all the West-Germanic dialects that I know of.
                                                > (English being one of them) Also in Gothic figgrs.
                                                > 'Knife' might make a case more clear cut, since
                                                > German has 'Messer' here. But Webster's list
                                                > 'knif' also as Middle Low German, and does not
                                                > mention it as being from Norse. (OE cnif)
                                                > Personally, I only know very few clear cut examples.
                                                > One seems to be 'to cast'.
                                                >
                                                > My impression is that English is mostly West Germanic
                                                > with a lot of French loans.
                                                >
                                                > Xigung
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > _________________________________________________________________
                                                > > Find out everything you need to know about Las Vegas here for that
                                                > getaway.
                                                > > http://special.msn.com/msnbc/vivalasvegas.armx
                                                >
                                                >
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                                              • xigung
                                                Hi, Concerning some of the mentioned words: I am a bit uncertain about knife , because I saw the other day that Dutch also has knijf in addition to mes .
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Jan 21, 2004
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Hi,
                                                  Concerning some of the mentioned words:

                                                  I am a bit uncertain about "knife", because I saw
                                                  the other day that Dutch also has "knijf" in addition
                                                  to "mes". The Dutch "ij" developed systematically from
                                                  the previous long "i", hence we expect a previous Dutch
                                                  'kniif".

                                                  "Silver" I also suspect of being another common Germanic
                                                  word. e.g. German silber and Dutch zilver. ON silfr.

                                                  With respect to Thursday, Dutch has donderdag,
                                                  and German Donnerstag. Old English had dunor m.
                                                  for thunder, Dutch donder and German Donner.
                                                  OE also has Ður for the god of thunder, which
                                                  is supposed to have been borrowed from Danish.
                                                  Had the Anglo-Saxons forgotten about the old
                                                  thundergod Donar, and thus had to reimport him
                                                  from the Danes?


                                                  Regards
                                                  Xigung


                                                  --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, pdhanssen@a... wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > There's a book entitled "The Viking Legacy" by Geipel
                                                  > dealing with the Norse contribution/influence to the English language.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > In a message dated 1/17/2004 1:04:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                                                  athompso@p... writes:
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language (Ed. David Crystal)
                                                  > > claims that, quote, "many general words (of Norse origin) entered the
                                                  > > language, nearly 1,000 eventually becoming part of Standard English.
                                                  > > Only c. 150 of these words appear in Old English manuscripts, the
                                                  > > earliest in the treaty between Alfred and Guthrum, and in the northern
                                                  > > manuscripts of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. They include landing, score,
                                                  > > beck fellow, take, husting and steersman, as well as many words which
                                                  > > did not survive in later English )mostly terms to do with Danish
                                                  law and
                                                  > > culture, which died away after the Norman Conquest. The vast
                                                  majority of
                                                  > > loans do not begin to appear until the early 12th century. These
                                                  include
                                                  > > many of our modern words which use sk- sounds (an Old Norse feature),
                                                  > > such as skirt, sky and skin, as well as most of the words listed
                                                  below.
                                                  > > The closeness of the contact between the Anglo-Saxons and the Danish
                                                  > > settlers is clearly shown by the extensive borrowings. Some of the
                                                  > > commonest words in Modern English came into the language at that time,
                                                  > > such as both, same, get and give. Even the personal pronoun system was
                                                  > > affected, with they, them and their replacing the earlier forms.
                                                  And the
                                                  > > most remarkable invasion of all - Old Norse influenced the verb to be.
                                                  > > The replacement of sindon by are is almost certainly the result of
                                                  > > Scandinavian influence, as is the spread of the third person
                                                  singular -s
                                                  > > ending in the present tense of other verbs.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > A few more Norse loans...again, anger, awkward, bag, band, bank,
                                                  birth,
                                                  > > brink, bull, cake, call, clip, crawl, crook, die, dirt, dregs, egg,
                                                  > > flat, fog, freckle, gap, gasp, get, guess, happy, husband, ill, keel,
                                                  > > kid, knife, law, leg, loan, low, muggy, neck, odd, outlaw, race,
                                                  raise,
                                                  > > ransack, reindeer, rid, root, rugged, scant, scare, scowl, scrap,
                                                  seat,
                                                  > > seem, silver, sister, skill, skirt, sly, smile, snub, sprint, steak,
                                                  > > take, thrift, Thursday, tight, trust, want, weak, window"
                                                  > >
                                                  > > While the Encyclopedia says nearly 1,000 words, A.C. Baugh in A
                                                  History
                                                  > > of the English Language suggests that while about this number of words
                                                  > > are of almost certain Norse origin, at least as many again are of
                                                  > > probable Norse origin.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I hope this helps
                                                  > >
                                                  > > -Alyssean
                                                • Alan Thompson
                                                  Hi Xigung With respect to Thursday, Baugh puts it in the class of words where the Anglo-Saxon word Thunresdæg was modified, taking on some of the character of
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Jan 23, 2004
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Hi Xigung

                                                    With respect to Thursday, Baugh puts it in the class of words where the
                                                    Anglo-Saxon word Thunresdæg was modified, taking on some of the
                                                    character of the Norse word.

                                                    While the Cambridge Encyclopedia listed silver or knife in its list of
                                                    examples of words of Norse origin, Baugh doesn´t so you may well have a
                                                    point. My lack of knowledge in these matters means I am unable to give
                                                    any informed opinion of my own.

                                                    Cheers
                                                    Alysseann

                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: xigung [mailto:xigung@...]
                                                    Sent: Thursday, 22 January 2004 4:19 AM
                                                    To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: [norse_course] Re: Old Norse in English

                                                    Hi,
                                                    Concerning some of the mentioned words:

                                                    I am a bit uncertain about "knife", because I saw
                                                    the other day that Dutch also has "knijf" in addition
                                                    to "mes". The Dutch "ij" developed systematically from
                                                    the previous long "i", hence we expect a previous Dutch
                                                    'kniif".

                                                    "Silver" I also suspect of being another common Germanic
                                                    word. e.g. German silber and Dutch zilver. ON silfr.

                                                    With respect to Thursday, Dutch has donderdag,
                                                    and German Donnerstag. Old English had dunor m.
                                                    for thunder, Dutch donder and German Donner.
                                                    OE also has Ður for the god of thunder, which
                                                    is supposed to have been borrowed from Danish.
                                                    Had the Anglo-Saxons forgotten about the old
                                                    thundergod Donar, and thus had to reimport him
                                                    from the Danes?


                                                    Regards
                                                    Xigung


                                                    --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, pdhanssen@a... wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > There's a book entitled "The Viking Legacy" by Geipel
                                                    > dealing with the Norse contribution/influence to the English language.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > In a message dated 1/17/2004 1:04:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                                                    athompso@p... writes:
                                                    >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language (Ed. David
                                                    Crystal)
                                                    > > claims that, quote, "many general words (of Norse origin) entered
                                                    the
                                                    > > language, nearly 1,000 eventually becoming part of Standard English.
                                                    > > Only c. 150 of these words appear in Old English manuscripts, the
                                                    > > earliest in the treaty between Alfred and Guthrum, and in the
                                                    northern
                                                    > > manuscripts of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. They include landing,
                                                    score,
                                                    > > beck fellow, take, husting and steersman, as well as many words
                                                    which
                                                    > > did not survive in later English )mostly terms to do with Danish
                                                    law and
                                                    > > culture, which died away after the Norman Conquest. The vast
                                                    majority of
                                                    > > loans do not begin to appear until the early 12th century. These
                                                    include
                                                    > > many of our modern words which use sk- sounds (an Old Norse
                                                    feature),
                                                    > > such as skirt, sky and skin, as well as most of the words listed
                                                    below.
                                                    > > The closeness of the contact between the Anglo-Saxons and the Danish
                                                    > > settlers is clearly shown by the extensive borrowings. Some of the
                                                    > > commonest words in Modern English came into the language at that
                                                    time,
                                                    > > such as both, same, get and give. Even the personal pronoun system
                                                    was
                                                    > > affected, with they, them and their replacing the earlier forms.
                                                    And the
                                                    > > most remarkable invasion of all - Old Norse influenced the verb to
                                                    be.
                                                    > > The replacement of sindon by are is almost certainly the result of
                                                    > > Scandinavian influence, as is the spread of the third person
                                                    singular -s
                                                    > > ending in the present tense of other verbs.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > A few more Norse loans...again, anger, awkward, bag, band, bank,
                                                    birth,
                                                    > > brink, bull, cake, call, clip, crawl, crook, die, dirt, dregs, egg,
                                                    > > flat, fog, freckle, gap, gasp, get, guess, happy, husband, ill,
                                                    keel,
                                                    > > kid, knife, law, leg, loan, low, muggy, neck, odd, outlaw, race,
                                                    raise,
                                                    > > ransack, reindeer, rid, root, rugged, scant, scare, scowl, scrap,
                                                    seat,
                                                    > > seem, silver, sister, skill, skirt, sly, smile, snub, sprint, steak,
                                                    > > take, thrift, Thursday, tight, trust, want, weak, window"
                                                    > >
                                                    > > While the Encyclopedia says nearly 1,000 words, A.C. Baugh in A
                                                    History
                                                    > > of the English Language suggests that while about this number of
                                                    words
                                                    > > are of almost certain Norse origin, at least as many again are of
                                                    > > probable Norse origin.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I hope this helps
                                                    > >
                                                    > > -Alyssean



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