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Linguistic Help

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  • guthroth999
    Heil! I am slowly trying to read through the basic course, but I can t work out the translation for the phrase of Can anyone give me this
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 1, 2003
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      Heil!

      I am slowly trying to read through the basic course, but I can't work
      out the translation for the phrase <Name> of <Place>

      Can anyone give me this jump-start ?

      Thanks,

      Guðroð Of Colanhomm

      "Literature stops in 1100. After that it's just books"
      J.R.R. Tolkien
    • Haukur Thorgeirsson
      Greetings. ... Well... I don t think there s any one-size-fits-all solution here. It would probably depend on the place name. If you re thinking about
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 1, 2003
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        Greetings.

        > I am slowly trying to read through the basic course, but I can't work
        > out the translation for the phrase <Name> of <Place>
        >
        > Can anyone give me this jump-start ?
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Guðroð Of Colanhomm

        Well... I don't think there's any one-size-fits-all
        solution here. It would probably depend on the place
        name. If you're thinking about "Colanhomm" then I
        suppose that's something Celtic and I'm not sure how
        to treat it.

        And Guðrøðr or Goðrøðr is probably the ON name you
        are looking for.

        Kveðja,
        Haukur
      • Pete James
        I posted with my normal tag line and then realised it would be very misleading. I apologise. Guðroð is Ok as it is and I am not after doing anything with it.
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 1, 2003
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          I posted with my normal tag line and then realised it would be very
          misleading. I apologise.

          Guðroð is Ok as it is and I am not after doing anything with it.

          More I'm trying to create a phrase for 'xxxx, Jarl of Skane'.

          In other words, a male personal name followed by a title followed by a place
          name

          Is that clearer ?

          Pete

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Haukur Thorgeirsson [mailto:haukurth@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 2:04 PM
          To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [norse_course] Linguistic Help


          Greetings.

          > I am slowly trying to read through the basic course, but I can't work
          > out the translation for the phrase <Name> of <Place>
          >
          > Can anyone give me this jump-start ?
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Guðroð Of Colanhomm

          Well... I don't think there's any one-size-fits-all
          solution here. It would probably depend on the place
          name. If you're thinking about "Colanhomm" then I
          suppose that's something Celtic and I'm not sure how
          to treat it.

          And Guðrøðr or Goðrøðr is probably the ON name you
          are looking for.

          Kveðja,
          Haukur


          A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.

          Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/

          To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:

          norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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        • Haukur Thorgeirsson
          Hi, Pete! ... If you insist. It s not correct, though :-) ... Okay, that s much better. I m pretty sure Hawk, Earl of Skane would best be treated as Haukr
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 1, 2003
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            Hi, Pete!


            > Guðroð is Ok as it is and I am not after doing anything with it.

            If you insist. It's not correct, though :-)


            > More I'm trying to create a phrase for 'xxxx, Jarl of Skane'.

            Okay, that's much better. I'm pretty sure "Hawk, Earl of Skane"
            would best be treated as "Haukr Skáneyjarjarl". It would depend
            a bit on the time period, though, as well as the dialect.

            Kveðja,
            Haukur
          • Pete James
            Hmmmm. While I knew about the ø I was assured the extra on the end was incorrect for a singular ON forename. How was I mislead ? Pete ... From: Haukur
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 1, 2003
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              Hmmmm.

              While I knew about the 'ø' I was assured the extra on the end was incorrect
              for a singular ON forename.

              How was I mislead ?

              Pete

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Haukur Thorgeirsson [mailto:haukurth@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 2:42 PM
              To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [norse_course] Linguistic Help


              Hi, Pete!


              > Guðroð is Ok as it is and I am not after doing anything with it.

              If you insist. It's not correct, though :-)


              > More I'm trying to create a phrase for 'xxxx, Jarl of Skane'.

              Okay, that's much better. I'm pretty sure "Hawk, Earl of Skane"
              would best be treated as "Haukr Skáneyjarjarl". It would depend
              a bit on the time period, though, as well as the dialect.

              Kveðja,
              Haukur


              A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.

              Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/

              To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:

              norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Haukur Thorgeirsson
              ... I don t know. Maybe you re affiliated with the SCA. There seem to be a lot of people there giving out bad advice about final r s ;) The name Guðrøðr is
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 1, 2003
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                > While I knew about the 'ø' I was assured the extra on the end was incorrect
                > for a singular ON forename.
                >
                > How was I mislead ?

                I don't know. Maybe you're affiliated with the SCA. There seem to
                be a lot of people there giving out bad advice about final r's ;)

                The name Guðrøðr is certainly attested with a final 'r'.
                The oldest example is possibly this stanza from the Ynglingatal:

                Varð Guðrøðr
                enn göfugláti
                lómi beittr,
                sás fyr löngu vas,
                ok umbráð,
                at ölum stilli,
                höfuð heiptr½kt
                at hilmi dró.
                Ok launsigr
                enn lómgeði
                Ásu árr
                af jöfri bar,
                ok buðlungr
                á beði fornum
                Stíflusunds
                of stunginn vas.

                (although this is a normalized version and not a ms text)

                Kveðja,
                Haukur
              • Pete James
                Well, as a European style re-enactor, originally I used Guðrøðr with the extra r but was advised to remove it for SCA purposes ! Specifically I was told
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 1, 2003
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                  Well, as a European style re-enactor, originally I used 'Guðrøðr' with the
                  extra r but was advised to remove it for SCA purposes !

                  Specifically I was told the Landnámabók lists the version without the final
                  r.

                  (Shakes head and walks away slowly ....)



                  Pete

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Haukur Thorgeirsson [mailto:haukurth@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 3:16 PM
                  To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [norse_course] Linguistic Help


                  > While I knew about the 'ø' I was assured the extra on the end was
                  incorrect
                  > for a singular ON forename.
                  >
                  > How was I mislead ?

                  I don't know. Maybe you're affiliated with the SCA. There seem to
                  be a lot of people there giving out bad advice about final r's ;)

                  The name Guðrøðr is certainly attested with a final 'r'.
                  The oldest example is possibly this stanza from the Ynglingatal:

                  Varð Guðrøðr
                  enn göfugláti
                  lómi beittr,
                  sás fyr löngu vas,
                  ok umbráð,
                  at ölum stilli,
                  höfuð heiptr½kt
                  at hilmi dró.
                  Ok launsigr
                  enn lómgeði
                  Ásu árr
                  af jöfri bar,
                  ok buðlungr
                  á beði fornum
                  Stíflusunds
                  of stunginn vas.

                  (although this is a normalized version and not a ms text)

                  Kveðja,
                  Haukur


                  A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.

                  Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/

                  To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:

                  norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Pete James
                  Hi again below you typed Haukr Skáneyjarjarl Is jarjarl correct or a mis-type ? Should it be Haukr Skáneyjarl Pete ... From: Haukur Thorgeirsson
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 2, 2003
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                    Hi again

                    below you typed

                    Haukr Skáneyjarjarl

                    Is jarjarl correct or a mis-type ?

                    Should it be Haukr Skáneyjarl

                    Pete

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Haukur Thorgeirsson [mailto:haukurth@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 2:42 PM
                    To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [norse_course] Linguistic Help


                    Hi, Pete!


                    > Guðroð is Ok as it is and I am not after doing anything with it.

                    If you insist. It's not correct, though :-)


                    > More I'm trying to create a phrase for 'xxxx, Jarl of Skane'.

                    Okay, that's much better. I'm pretty sure "Hawk, Earl of Skane"
                    would best be treated as "Haukr Skáneyjarjarl". It would depend
                    a bit on the time period, though, as well as the dialect.

                    Kveðja,
                    Haukur
                  • Haukur Thorgeirsson
                    Heill aptr, Pætr. ... This is quite correct as it is. The ey in Skáney is the normal noun for island and its genitive form eyjar is beyond doubt. The
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jul 2, 2003
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                      Heill aptr, Pætr.

                      > below you typed
                      >
                      > Haukr Skáneyjarjarl
                      >
                      > Is jarjarl correct or a mis-type ?

                      :) So you don't like Jar-Jar?

                      This is quite correct as it is.
                      The 'ey' in Skáney is the normal
                      noun for "island" and its genitive
                      form 'eyjar' is beyond doubt. The
                      genitive of 'Skáney' is even specifically
                      attested more than once in old poetry.

                      Hafði för til ferju
                      fróðr Skáneyjar góða
                      blakkríðandi bakka
                      barnungr þaðan farma.

                      - Glúmr Geirason

                      Selund náði þá síðan
                      sóknheggr und sik leggja
                      vals ok Vinða frelsi
                      víð Skáneyjar síðu.

                      - Goðþormr sindri

                      The genitive is, by the way, what corresponds
                      to the English 'of' (as in your original question).

                      Kveðja,
                      Haukur

                      P.S. There's more than one version of the Landnámabók
                      extant but in the one I checked the name Guðrøðr doesn't
                      occur in the nominative at all, so you'd be hard pressed
                      to use that as evidence for its r-lessness.

                      P.P.S. Since we're mentioning "island" I'm told that
                      its first component is really not French/Latin as
                      one might think. The word should be compared with
                      Old Norse ey-land.
                    • sjuler
                      Speaking about Skáney (or Skåne in the mainland Scandinavian languages), isn t it actually the Scandinavian word for... Scandinavia ? In Proto-Norse, they
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jul 3, 2003
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                        Speaking about Skáney (or "Skåne" in the mainland Scandinavian
                        languages), isn't it actually the Scandinavian word
                        for... 'Scandinavia'? In Proto-Norse, they probably spoke
                        about 'Skaðinauijô' (?), literally meaning 'Island of Damage', when
                        talking about the rough coast of Skáney/Skåne. We easily recognize
                        the first part 'skaðin-' in all modern Norse languages as 'damage'
                        (both as noun and verb). The last part '-auijô' is harder to decode,
                        but it is of course the same word as Icelandic 'ey[ja]' (note the i-
                        umlaut here).

                        The Latin people turned 'Skaðinauijô' into 'Scandinavia', and our
                        ancestors turned it into Skáneyja, Skáney and Skåne.

                        One thing, though. One realizes that 'skaðin' is (or should be)
                        genitive. But I don't recognize it. I mean, the Old Norse
                        standardized form would be 'Skaðaeyja'. How did the genitive ending '-
                        in-' become simply '-a-'?

                        Sigge


                        --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Haukur Thorgeirsson
                        <haukurth@h...> wrote:
                        > Heill aptr, Pætr.
                        >
                        > > below you typed
                        > >
                        > > Haukr Skáneyjarjarl
                        > >
                        > > Is jarjarl correct or a mis-type ?
                        >
                        > :) So you don't like Jar-Jar?
                        >
                        > This is quite correct as it is.
                        > The 'ey' in Skáney is the normal
                        > noun for "island" and its genitive
                        > form 'eyjar' is beyond doubt. The
                        > genitive of 'Skáney' is even specifically
                        > attested more than once in old poetry.
                        >
                        > Hafði för til ferju
                        > fróðr Skáneyjar góða
                        > blakkríðandi bakka
                        > barnungr þaðan farma.
                        >
                        > - Glúmr Geirason
                        >
                        > Selund náði þá síðan
                        > sóknheggr und sik leggja
                        > vals ok Vinða frelsi
                        > víð Skáneyjar síðu.
                        >
                        > - Goðþormr sindri
                        >
                        > The genitive is, by the way, what corresponds
                        > to the English 'of' (as in your original question).
                        >
                        > Kveðja,
                        > Haukur
                        >
                        > P.S. There's more than one version of the Landnámabók
                        > extant but in the one I checked the name Guðrøðr doesn't
                        > occur in the nominative at all, so you'd be hard pressed
                        > to use that as evidence for its r-lessness.
                        >
                        > P.P.S. Since we're mentioning "island" I'm told that
                        > its first component is really not French/Latin as
                        > one might think. The word should be compared with
                        > Old Norse ey-land.
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