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Language shift: Finnish > Germanic

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  • Jens Persson <arnljotr@yahoo.se>
    Here is an interesting article about the language shift we had in Scandinavia for 2500-3000 years ago (it is a supposition, I should point out):
    Message 1 of 3 , Mar 1, 2003
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      Here is an interesting article about the language shift we had in
      Scandinavia for 2500-3000 years ago (it is a supposition, I should
      point out):
      http://www.taurnet.se/historia/jarnsvenska.htm
      I wonder, how is it with the etymology: are there more Indo-European
      etymological ''gaps'' for the Germanic words than for, e.g., the
      Greek or Latin ones? And what about the explanation that these gaps
      can be filled by non-Indo-European words? What about filling them
      with Finnish words?

      I should point out that with Finnish, I do not mean 21th century
      standard Finnish as spoken in Finland; one could imagine an archaic
      uncle within the Finno-Ugric frame.

      Skål ta mej faan!
      /Jens Persson, aka Arnljotr


      "Kan man adoptera barn från Colombia kan man väl också adoptera dem
      från bronsåldern."
      Annika Luther
    • Daniel Bray
      Heill Jens, A very interesting field this. I believe the late Prof. Edgar Polomé was beginning an extensive project on the substrate etyma found in Germanic
      Message 2 of 3 , Mar 1, 2003
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        Heill Jens,

        A very interesting field this. I believe the late Prof. Edgar Polomé was
        beginning an extensive project on the substrate etyma found in Germanic
        languages (there's an article on it in the Journal of Indo-European Studies,
        vol. 26, #1&2). Unfortunately, he will never finish this project. It would be
        interesting to see the difference (if any) between substrate words in
        Scandinavian languages and Continental Germanic. I had read some time ago
        that genetic studies indicated that Scandinavia had been extensively settled
        by the ancestors of the Saami and Suomi from the north and east before
        Germanic settlement from the south.It would be interesting to see if there is
        a significant Finno-Ugric substrate in the Scandinavian languages. Has anyone
        besides Polomé done any significant work (pref. in English) in this area?

        Dan

        "Jens Persson " wrote:

        > Here is an interesting article about the language shift we had in
        > Scandinavia for 2500-3000 years ago (it is a supposition, I should
        > point out):
        > http://www.taurnet.se/historia/jarnsvenska.htm
        > I wonder, how is it with the etymology: are there more Indo-European
        > etymological ''gaps'' for the Germanic words than for, e.g., the
        > Greek or Latin ones? And what about the explanation that these gaps
        > can be filled by non-Indo-European words? What about filling them
        > with Finnish words?
        >
        > I should point out that with Finnish, I do not mean 21th century
        > standard Finnish as spoken in Finland; one could imagine an archaic
        > uncle within the Finno-Ugric frame.
        >
        > Skål ta mej faan!
        > /Jens Persson, aka Arnljotr
        >
        > "Kan man adoptera barn från Colombia kan man väl också adoptera dem
        > från bronsåldern."
        > Annika Luther
        >
        >
        > Sumir hafa kvæði...
        > ...aðrir spakmæli.
        >
        > - Keth
        >
        > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

        --
        Daniel Bray
        dbray@...
        School of Studies in Religion A20
        University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia

        "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and
        catastrophe." H. G. Wells (1866 - 1946)
      • Jens Persson <arnljotr@yahoo.se>
        Heill Daniel. This is an interesting topic to look at, indeed. My view point is that Proto-Germanic -- the ancestor of pure English, pure Dutch, pure
        Message 3 of 3 , Mar 2, 2003
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          Heill Daniel.

          This is an interesting topic to look at, indeed.

          My view point is that Proto-Germanic -- the ancestor of "pure"
          English, "pure" Dutch, "pure" Dalecarlian etc -- was formed in a
          Finno-Ugric speaking environment which slowly adapted to the Indo-
          European way of living and speaking.

          I hardly believe that the Germanic language came to Scandinavia with
          Germanic people. Sami people definitely lived over most of what is
          today known as Scandinavia. Genetically, Scandinavian have been here
          longer than the Indo-European language. There are myths about
          different Germanic tribes moving north from, e.g., Denmark to settle
          Norway and Sweden. I believe that only the rulers physically moved --
          bringing updated Indo-European language elements --, the original
          people had been living there for thousands of years, and they are
          still living there (I speak about genetics here).

          This is a history I think is quite plausible:

          Together with the edge of the great ice, cro-magnons moved to
          northern Europe. No clue what language they spoke, but they are
          genetically the ancestors of the sami people.
          Thousands and thousands of years later, a Finnish speaking population
          from the south east came to Scandinavia and northern Europe. There
          are indications also that they settled large portions of central
          Europe, but definitely not the western parts. Genetically, they are
          the ancestors of the Scandinavians. They spoke a language which the
          southern branch of the sami people adapted. That is why I find south
          sami very interesting.
          A few thousand of years later, there was a need for iron in southern
          Europe since the Greek civilization expanded. Of course, there is
          iron in Scandinavia, and the trading of this metal of power made
          Scandinavians Indo-European speaking. But sami people did not change
          language a second time, by some reason (definitely related to their
          nomadic style of living). germanic was formed somewhere in southern
          Scandinavia and perhaps northern Germany
          Later on, Germanic spread and developed into what is known from
          written sources.

          I hope this supposition will be unsparingly critized.

          Skål ta mej faan!
          /Jens Persson, aka Arnljotr

          Daniel Bray wrote:

          > Heill Jens,
          >
          > A very interesting field this. I believe the late Prof. Edgar
          Polomé was
          > beginning an extensive project on the substrate etyma found in
          Germanic
          > languages (there's an article on it in the Journal of Indo-European
          Studies,
          > vol. 26, #1&2). Unfortunately, he will never finish this project.
          It would be
          > interesting to see the difference (if any) between substrate words
          in
          > Scandinavian languages and Continental Germanic. I had read some
          time ago
          > that genetic studies indicated that Scandinavia had been
          extensively settled
          > by the ancestors of the Saami and Suomi from the north and east
          before
          > Germanic settlement from the south.It would be interesting to see
          if there is
          > a significant Finno-Ugric substrate in the Scandinavian languages.
          Has anyone
          > besides Polomé done any significant work (pref. in English) in
          this area?
          >
          > Dan
          >
          > "Jens Persson " wrote:
          >
          > > Here is an interesting article about the language shift we had in
          > > Scandinavia for 2500-3000 years ago (it is a supposition, I should
          > > point out):
          > > http://www.taurnet.se/historia/jarnsvenska.htm
          > > I wonder, how is it with the etymology: are there more Indo-
          European
          > > etymological ''gaps'' for the Germanic words than for, e.g., the
          > > Greek or Latin ones? And what about the explanation that these
          gaps
          > > can be filled by non-Indo-European words? What about filling them
          > > with Finnish words?
          > >
          > > I should point out that with Finnish, I do not mean 21th century
          > > standard Finnish as spoken in Finland; one could imagine an
          archaic
          > > uncle within the Finno-Ugric frame.
          > >
          > > Skål ta mej faan!
          > > /Jens Persson, aka Arnljotr
          > >
          > > "Kan man adoptera barn från Colombia kan man väl också adoptera
          dem
          > > från bronsåldern."
          > > Annika Luther
          > >
          > >
          > > Sumir hafa kvæði...
          > > ...aðrir spakmæli.
          > >
          > > - Keth
          > >
          > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          > --
          > Daniel Bray
          > dbray@m...
          > School of Studies in Religion A20
          > University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia
          >
          > "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and
          > catastrophe." H. G. Wells (1866 - 1946)
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