Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: I KALLEN - a response

Expand Messages
  • konrad_oddsson
    Sæll Símon. ... form I KALLEN. I understand that I meant you (pl.) and that the verb, e.g. KALLA (to call) had a special ending in -EN, which seems to
    Message 1 of 3 , Oct 28, 2002
      Sæll Símon.

      > In the course of my Swedish studies, I have discovered the archaic
      form I KALLEN. I understand that "I" meant "you (pl.)" and that the
      verb, e.g. KALLA (to call) had a special ending in -EN, which seems
      to have applied across all the conjugations except contracted verbs
      like TRO. I have a smattering of Icelandic, which is close to Old
      Norse, but the corresponding form there is ÞIÐ KALLIÐ, which doesn't
      seem to fit the bill. Please, can anyone enlighten me as to the
      ultimate source of I KALLEN? I mean both the pronoun I and the
      ending EN.
      >

      I am assuming that by "archaic form" you mean a form that occurs in
      old Swedish manuscripts from roughly 1200-1500? If so, then here is
      the likely source of forms like "I KALLEN": a shift in pronunciation
      from Ð to N in this position that occured in most East Norse
      dialects at various times during roughly the period 900-1300. I have
      also observed this phenomenon on the course of my own studies in old
      Swedish. As you noticed, the -EN ending applies across all the old
      conjugations with few exceptions. Historically, the change was from
      Ð to N and West Norse shows a more conservative form in this case.
      The use of E for I is in this case purely dialectical - some
      dialects had I and others E, showing no influence on the grammar
      either way. The Icelandic form ÞIÐ KALLIÐ should fit the bill just
      fine, as well as should the Icelandic formal plural ÞÉR KALLIÐ. ÞIÐ
      is the old dual form acting as a plural, whereas ÞÉR is the old
      plural form acting as a formal. The I in I KALLEN could represent
      either the West Norse dual IT, which became ÞIÐ, or the West Norse
      plural ÉR, which became ÞÉR, as there are no special dual forms of
      verbs in Old Norse or Old Swedish. Only the context can tell you
      whether the I in this case means West Norse IT or ÉR. Also, old East
      Norse tended to prefer ÍR to ÉR in the plural. Finally, I want to
      point out that spelling was not fixed anywhere in Scandinavia during
      this period - it could be quite erratic! Many manuspripts show no
      markings over vowels like I and E, thus leaving us to guess from the
      context as to whether I in the case means ÍR/ÉR or IT/ET. I hope
      this will be useful to you in your studies.

      Regards,
      Konrad.
    • arnljotr
      I am assuming that by archaic form you mean a form that occurs in ... Well, Konrad, I kallen was used until mid 20th century in written Swedish. Some
      Message 2 of 3 , Oct 29, 2002
        "I am assuming that by "archaic form" you mean a form that occurs in
        > old Swedish manuscripts from roughly 1200-1500?"

        Well, Konrad, 'I kallen' was used until mid 20th century in written
        Swedish. Some examples:

        "Stirren rusige på döden, I som lefvat utan mod!" (Rydberg,
        1876,1882) - here an imperative form.

        "Sågo j thenna Synena?" (Isogaeus, about 1700) - note the ending '-o'
        instead of '-en' and that he uses 'j', not 'I'. Note also the
        accusative-ending '-ena' of the feminine noun 'syn' (i.e. 'vision').

        "En evig otack skolen I få, sade gubben til den sloken, som hade
        ridit.. (hästen) så illa." (Dalin, 1740)

        "Genom det befäl, som vid ifrågavarande tillfälle varit krigsskolans
        elever följaktigt, hafven I antagligen redan erhållit kännedom om
        förhållandena vid branden." (Unknown to me, 1905) - except
        for 'hafven I' (i.e. 'you have', here probably in singular) it looks
        like perfectly modern written Swedish.

        These examples are from SAOB on the net (Dictionary of Swedish
        Academy) found at http://g3.spraakdata.gu.se/saob/ .

        In my own Norse dialect (Central Jamtlandic) we would say something
        like 'DA KALLAN'. In e.g. Dalska they would say either 'IÐ KALLIÐ'
        or 'IR KALLIR' (Ð>R in some dalska dialects).

        Ielsningger,
        Annliuote


        --- In norse_course@y..., "konrad_oddsson" <konrad_oddsson@y...>
        wrote:
        > Sæll Símon.
        >
        > > In the course of my Swedish studies, I have discovered the
        archaic
        > form I KALLEN. I understand that "I" meant "you (pl.)" and that the
        > verb, e.g. KALLA (to call) had a special ending in -EN, which seems
        > to have applied across all the conjugations except contracted verbs
        > like TRO. I have a smattering of Icelandic, which is close to Old
        > Norse, but the corresponding form there is ÞIÐ KALLIÐ, which
        doesn't
        > seem to fit the bill. Please, can anyone enlighten me as to the
        > ultimate source of I KALLEN? I mean both the pronoun I and the
        > ending EN.
        > >
        >
        > I am assuming that by "archaic form" you mean a form that occurs in
        > old Swedish manuscripts from roughly 1200-1500? If so, then here is
        > the likely source of forms like "I KALLEN": a shift in
        pronunciation
        > from Ð to N in this position that occured in most East Norse
        > dialects at various times during roughly the period 900-1300. I
        have
        > also observed this phenomenon on the course of my own studies in
        old
        > Swedish. As you noticed, the -EN ending applies across all the old
        > conjugations with few exceptions. Historically, the change was from
        > Ð to N and West Norse shows a more conservative form in this case.
        > The use of E for I is in this case purely dialectical - some
        > dialects had I and others E, showing no influence on the grammar
        > either way. The Icelandic form ÞIÐ KALLIÐ should fit the bill just
        > fine, as well as should the Icelandic formal plural ÞÉR KALLIÐ. ÞIÐ
        > is the old dual form acting as a plural, whereas ÞÉR is the old
        > plural form acting as a formal. The I in I KALLEN could represent
        > either the West Norse dual IT, which became ÞIÐ, or the West Norse
        > plural ÉR, which became ÞÉR, as there are no special dual forms of
        > verbs in Old Norse or Old Swedish. Only the context can tell you
        > whether the I in this case means West Norse IT or ÉR. Also, old
        East
        > Norse tended to prefer ÍR to ÉR in the plural. Finally, I want to
        > point out that spelling was not fixed anywhere in Scandinavia
        during
        > this period - it could be quite erratic! Many manuspripts show no
        > markings over vowels like I and E, thus leaving us to guess from
        the
        > context as to whether I in the case means ÍR/ÉR or IT/ET. I hope
        > this will be useful to you in your studies.
        >
        > Regards,
        > Konrad.
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.