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Re: [norse_course] Re: Hail :-)

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  • Dæg
    ... From: fjornir To: Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:46 PM Subject: [norse_course] Re: Hail :-)
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 28, 2002
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "fjornir" <falconsword@...>
      To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:46 PM
      Subject: [norse_course] Re: Hail :-)


      Dæg wrote:

      >>Erm.. I made it up. ;) I realize that's taboo
      >>in Icelandic, but in American English we do such
      >>things all the time.

      >Of course. Dunjaic as I am in my inflingency
      >I have a flestrum of that. Just enfuate that one
      >can't always strichen the clack to the cluck.

      See.. this is why Icelanders are not allowed to invent words on the fly. ;)

      Dæg
    • William Cocker
      How about Akavit (Aquavit sp.). A fine northern spirit, chilled ice cold, and tossed back. Those were the good old days! William at Cragmere
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 28, 2002
        How about Akavit (Aquavit sp.). A fine northern spirit, chilled ice cold, and tossed back. Those were the good old days!
         
          William at Cragmere   hedgehog@...
                                           hedgehog1@...
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 7:17 AM
        Subject: Re: [norse_course] Hail :-)

        In a message dated 2/28/02 3:40:54 AM Pacific Standard Time, haukurth@... writes:
        What is this running
        joke about a word "norondr" which I've never heard of
        and doesn't look like it should exist? :-)

        Someone was trying to find a Norse equivalent to the English ´´´Spirit of the North´´...
        Troth,
        PTD


        Sumir hafa kvæði...
        ...aðrir spakmæli.

        - Keth

        Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/

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      • keth@online.no
        Hail Óskar ! I am glad to see you are back ! (was it from China?) I haven t been able to follow very much of [norse_course] for the last six months or so. So
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 28, 2002
          Hail Óskar !

          I am glad to see you are back ! (was it from China?)
          I haven't been able to follow very much of [norse_course]
          for the last six months or so. So please excuse me, if
          I am not updated.

          I agree with you that Old Norse should be left alone,
          since it is a "historic" language, and as such cannot
          change - and that is a definition, really.

          I have noted, though, that some people have been working
          on the ancient Gothic language, and invented a lot of words
          for it, so that the thus "ameliorated" language, may be used for
          various toy purposes. (e.g. historical re-enactors -- or
          maybe even 21st century "Goths" - with black garments,
          sharp teeth and the works)

          The same thing also seems to be happening to Old Norse,
          where various "ritualistic" groups use it at mass rallys.
          (shudder)



          >Okay, this is a little something that we should all try to prevent
          >from turning into an "international incident" of some kind ;)
          >
          > Personally, I'm not really offended by your making up ON nonsense
          >words. Must say though, that it's not entirely true that it's taboo
          >to make up words in Icelandic. Quite untrue, actually. The 20th
          >century has seen an extensive process of deliberate creation of
          >words in order to enrich the language and maintain its vitality. The
          >commonly cited example of "tölva", an artificial fusion of "tölu-
          >völva" ("number-prophetress"), meaning 'computer', is in a sense

          The Swedes also created "dator" for computer.
          That seems like a good choice.


          >created in the same spirit as Dæg's word "norondr". The main
          >difference is that Dæg's mastery of the language (truly no offence
          >meant) is most likely not comparable to the native-speaker linguists
          >who created "tölva". Or at least "norondr" does not betray that
          >mastery (again, no offence).

          In Norwegian, this construction would not really fit
          into the language. From "nord" + "ånd" and then
          make up a word "nordånd", wouldn't really work well.

          "Nordens ånd" would work, but it already sounds as if it was from
          the 19th century. (which it is)
          "Verdensånden" = "the world spirit" (anima mundi)
          (= "andi heimsins", most likely)

          You *can* however say "nordmann" (=norðmaður).
          But somehow it doesn't work so well for "nordånd" (=norðandi).
          Maybe because "ånd" is an abstract concept. (?)



          >What is taboo, then, or just not particularly impressive to anyone,
          >is people making up words without being qualified to do so. Would
          >you honestly be positive to foreigners making up English words
          >without even being fluent in English?
          >
          >The most important point is, however:
          >
          >*Please do NOT provide false, deliberately made-up words without
          >explicit warning*
          >
          >People were, to my knowledge, asking for a real word. It really
          >undermines the work of both the teachers and the students to have
          >false information floating around.
          >
          >As to an ON word to express the concept of "Spirit of the North"...
          >quite tricky, because that is to my mind a rather vague, romantic
          >concept, quite foreign to the ON mindset as I'm familiar with it.
          >This much must be clear, IMO.

          In classical antiquity they had all kinds of spirits.
          And so the concept does predate romanticism by quite
          a few centuries. But those were spirits of planets
          or of trees, etc. I am not sure they had land spirits.
          What I see as a typically romantic concept is the idea
          of a "folkesjel" (=the spirit of a nation).
          (þjóðarsál? þjóðsál? which of the two?)
          In the Trojan war, for example, it seems both nations
          had the same gods. But maybe different gods supported
          different sides ?

          > "Andi norðrsins" means literally "spirit of the north", but such a
          >phrase is, ironically, very unlike the spirit of the north. Reading
          >the sagas, you will find the language in them to be much more down-
          >to-earth, generally unromantic (some sagas are markedly more
          >romantic than others). When romanticism occurs, it is not for "the
          >North", but rather for kings, heroes, and honour. Nationalism and
          >cultural romanticism are modern concepts, remember :)

          Anything that ends in -ism is of course modern :)

          Best regards
          Keth
        • Rainbow Sky
          Hi all, I ve been enjoying the course, but slowly. Personal Testimony: Thanks to the Norse Course, my friend and I can enjoy a relatively lengthy discussion
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 2, 2002
            Hi all,

            I've been enjoying the course, but slowly.

            Personal Testimony:
            "Thanks to the Norse Course, my friend and I
            can enjoy a relatively lengthy
            discussion of black cheese and long swords."

            I have a question, and if this is answered elsewhere
            please direct me to it: what is the relationship
            between modern Icelandic and Old Norse?

            > Must say though, that it's not entirely true that
            > it's taboo to make up words in Icelandic. Quite
            > untrue, actually.

            I have been impressed with what I've read about
            the Icelanders desire to maintain the integrity
            of their language. Am I correct in recalling
            that the word for _electricity_ is derived from
            the Icelandic for _lightning_ and _stone_?

            I love that the English language has incorporated
            so many influences into it, yet I respect a people's
            desire to coin their own terms.

            > Nationalism and cultural romanticism are modern
            > concepts, remember :)

            That is all too true!

            For the mind set of the original Old Norse speakers,
            what would y'all recommend reading?

            Cheers,
            Mike

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          • Haukur Thorgeirsson
            Hi Mike! ... allow. Does anyone else want to contribute a quotable testimony? ... I don t have the answer to this on the homepage but I probably should. Making
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 2, 2002
              Hi Mike!


              > Personal Testimony:
              > "Thanks to the Norse Course, my friend and I
              > can enjoy a relatively lengthy
              > discussion of black cheese and long swords."

              :D I think I'll put that on the homepage if you'll
              allow. Does anyone else want to contribute a quotable
              testimony?


              > I have a question, and if this is answered elsewhere
              > please direct me to it: what is the relationship
              > between modern Icelandic and Old Norse?

              I don't have the answer to this on the homepage but
              I probably should. Making a FAQ would be a good idea.

              Very quickly the relationship between modern Icelandic
              and Old Norse is similar to the relationship between the
              English you speak and the English of the King James Bible.


              > I have been impressed with what I've read about
              > the Icelanders desire to maintain the integrity
              > of their language. Am I correct in recalling
              > that the word for _electricity_ is derived from
              > the Icelandic for _lightning_ and _stone_?

              Not quite. Our word for electricity is 'rafmagn';
              made from 'raf' meaning amber and 'magn' meaning
              might or power. Thus 'rafmagn' is amber-power.
              This is, more or less, a translation of the greek
              word. The greek word for amber gives you the electro
              words.

              One problem with the 'rafmagn' is translating Philip
              Pullman's books. The English fantasist Philip Pullman
              uses amber-words for electrical phenomena in his Dark
              Materials books. The solution of the Icelandic translator
              is to use 'ambur' instead of 'raf'. This seems rather
              absurd. The Icelandic (loan) word 'ambur' doesn't mean
              amber but ambergris - as far as I know.

              Anyway, we don't use homemade words for everything;
              plastic is simply 'plast' for example. I think the
              Finns have their own word for plastic, but I don't
              remember what it is.


              > For the mind set of the original Old Norse speakers,
              > what would y'all recommend reading?

              Why, Old Norse literature of course! :)

              I don't know which popularisations or overviews are
              good since I have read so few of them.

              Kveðja,
              Haukur
            • Rainbow Sky
              Haukur, My apologies for taking so long to reply. ... Please do! ... Thank you. I suspected this was probably the case. And, yes, I have read the following
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 7, 2002
                Haukur,

                My apologies for taking so long to reply.

                >> Personal Testimony:
                >> "Thanks to the Norse Course, my friend and I
                >> can enjoy a relatively lengthy
                >> discussion of black cheese and long swords."

                > :D I think I'll put that on the homepage if you'll
                > allow.

                Please do!

                > Very quickly the relationship between modern
                > Icelandic and Old Norse is similar to the
                > relationship between the English you speak
                > and the English of the King James Bible.

                Thank you. I suspected this was probably the case.
                And, yes, I have read the following e-mails which
                also used this analogy.

                > Not quite. Our word for electricity is 'rafmagn';
                > made from 'raf' meaning amber and 'magn' meaning
                > might or power. Thus 'rafmagn' is amber-power.
                > This is, more or less, a translation of the greek
                > word.

                That sounds like a practical approach.

                This makes me wonder.
                Do you know how the pre-modern Old Norse speakers
                treated unfamiliar objects? That is, when they
                encountered something for the first time, did
                they tend to create new names, or would they
                adopt the names used by the people who
                introduced them to the thing?

                Cheers,
                Mike

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              • mdehners@aol.com
                In a message dated 3/8/02 1:50:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, ... others can probably answer this better than I, but from botanical nomenclature it s amazing how
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 8, 2002
                  In a message dated 3/8/02 1:50:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, rainbowskymann@... writes:
                  Do you know how the pre-modern Old Norse speakers
                  treated unfamiliar objects? That is, when they
                  encountered something for the first time, did
                  they tend to create new names, or would they
                  adopt the names used by the people who
                  introduced them to the thing?



                  others can probably answer this better than I, but from botanical nomenclature it's amazing how many unrelated and sometimes dissimilar in appearance plants have the same name accross Europe and Scandinavia<G>..
                  Most not as famous as Yggdrasill<G>..
                  FriðR,
                  Pat. 
                • Tony Glister
                  Change adopt to adapt and you ve cracked it. Revd Tony Glister ... From: mdehners@aol.com To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 3:37 PM
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 8, 2002
                    Change adopt to adapt and you've cracked it.
                     
                    Revd Tony Glister
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 3:37 PM
                    Subject: Re: [norse_course] Re: nonsense schmonsense

                    In a message dated 3/8/02 1:50:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, rainbowskymann@... writes:
                    Do you know how the pre-modern Old Norse speakers
                    treated unfamiliar objects? That is, when they
                    encountered something for the first time, did
                    they tend to create new names, or would they
                    adopt the names used by the people who
                    introduced them to the thing?



                    others can probably answer this better than I, but from botanical nomenclature it's amazing how many unrelated and sometimes dissimilar in appearance plants have the same name accross Europe and Scandinavia<G>..
                    Most not as famous as Yggdrasill<G>..
                    FriðR,
                    Pat. 


                    Sumir hafa kvæði...
                    ...aðrir spakmæli.

                    - Keth

                    Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/

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