Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [norse_course] Re: Hail :-)

Expand Messages
  • Dæg
    ... From: fjornir To: Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:46 PM Subject: [norse_course] Re: Hail :-)
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 28, 2002
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "fjornir" <falconsword@...>
      To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:46 PM
      Subject: [norse_course] Re: Hail :-)


      Dæg wrote:

      >>Erm.. I made it up. ;) I realize that's taboo
      >>in Icelandic, but in American English we do such
      >>things all the time.

      >Of course. Dunjaic as I am in my inflingency
      >I have a flestrum of that. Just enfuate that one
      >can't always strichen the clack to the cluck.

      See.. this is why Icelanders are not allowed to invent words on the fly. ;)

      Dæg
    • hr_oskar
      Hi/hail all :) ... American ... it if you ... Okay, this is a little something that we should all try to prevent from turning into an international incident
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 28, 2002
        Hi/hail all :)

        > > Only one thing I will mention now: What is this running
        > > joke about a word "norondr" which I've never heard of
        > > and doesn't look like it should exist? :-)
        >
        > Erm.. I made it up. ;) I realize that's taboo in Icelandic, but in
        American
        > English we do such things all the time. Feel free to exterminate
        it if you
        > want. But we need a word to replace it first. :)
        >
        > Dæg

        Okay, this is a little something that we should all try to prevent
        from turning into an "international incident" of some kind ;)

        Personally, I'm not really offended by your making up ON nonsense
        words. Must say though, that it's not entirely true that it's taboo
        to make up words in Icelandic. Quite untrue, actually. The 20th
        century has seen an extensive process of deliberate creation of
        words in order to enrich the language and maintain its vitality. The
        commonly cited example of "tölva", an artificial fusion of "tölu-
        völva" ("number-prophetress"), meaning 'computer', is in a sense
        created in the same spirit as Dæg's word "norondr". The main
        difference is that Dæg's mastery of the language (truly no offence
        meant) is most likely not comparable to the native-speaker linguists
        who created "tölva". Or at least "norondr" does not betray that
        mastery (again, no offence).

        What is taboo, then, or just not particularly impressive to anyone,
        is people making up words without being qualified to do so. Would
        you honestly be positive to foreigners making up English words
        without even being fluent in English?

        The most important point is, however:

        *Please do NOT provide false, deliberately made-up words without
        explicit warning*

        People were, to my knowledge, asking for a real word. It really
        undermines the work of both the teachers and the students to have
        false information floating around.

        As to an ON word to express the concept of "Spirit of the North"...
        quite tricky, because that is to my mind a rather vague, romantic
        concept, quite foreign to the ON mindset as I'm familiar with it.
        This much must be clear, IMO.
        "Andi norðrsins" means literally "spirit of the north", but such a
        phrase is, ironically, very unlike the spirit of the north. Reading
        the sagas, you will find the language in them to be much more down-
        to-earth, generally unromantic (some sagas are markedly more
        romantic than others). When romanticism occurs, it is not for "the
        North", but rather for kings, heroes, and honour. Nationalism and
        cultural romanticism are modern concepts, remember :)

        Regards,
        Óskar
      • William Cocker
        How about Akavit (Aquavit sp.). A fine northern spirit, chilled ice cold, and tossed back. Those were the good old days! William at Cragmere
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 28, 2002
          How about Akavit (Aquavit sp.). A fine northern spirit, chilled ice cold, and tossed back. Those were the good old days!
           
            William at Cragmere   hedgehog@...
                                             hedgehog1@...
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 7:17 AM
          Subject: Re: [norse_course] Hail :-)

          In a message dated 2/28/02 3:40:54 AM Pacific Standard Time, haukurth@... writes:
          What is this running
          joke about a word "norondr" which I've never heard of
          and doesn't look like it should exist? :-)

          Someone was trying to find a Norse equivalent to the English ´´´Spirit of the North´´...
          Troth,
          PTD


          Sumir hafa kvæði...
          ...aðrir spakmæli.

          - Keth

          Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • keth@online.no
          Hail Óskar ! I am glad to see you are back ! (was it from China?) I haven t been able to follow very much of [norse_course] for the last six months or so. So
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 28, 2002
            Hail Óskar !

            I am glad to see you are back ! (was it from China?)
            I haven't been able to follow very much of [norse_course]
            for the last six months or so. So please excuse me, if
            I am not updated.

            I agree with you that Old Norse should be left alone,
            since it is a "historic" language, and as such cannot
            change - and that is a definition, really.

            I have noted, though, that some people have been working
            on the ancient Gothic language, and invented a lot of words
            for it, so that the thus "ameliorated" language, may be used for
            various toy purposes. (e.g. historical re-enactors -- or
            maybe even 21st century "Goths" - with black garments,
            sharp teeth and the works)

            The same thing also seems to be happening to Old Norse,
            where various "ritualistic" groups use it at mass rallys.
            (shudder)



            >Okay, this is a little something that we should all try to prevent
            >from turning into an "international incident" of some kind ;)
            >
            > Personally, I'm not really offended by your making up ON nonsense
            >words. Must say though, that it's not entirely true that it's taboo
            >to make up words in Icelandic. Quite untrue, actually. The 20th
            >century has seen an extensive process of deliberate creation of
            >words in order to enrich the language and maintain its vitality. The
            >commonly cited example of "tölva", an artificial fusion of "tölu-
            >völva" ("number-prophetress"), meaning 'computer', is in a sense

            The Swedes also created "dator" for computer.
            That seems like a good choice.


            >created in the same spirit as Dæg's word "norondr". The main
            >difference is that Dæg's mastery of the language (truly no offence
            >meant) is most likely not comparable to the native-speaker linguists
            >who created "tölva". Or at least "norondr" does not betray that
            >mastery (again, no offence).

            In Norwegian, this construction would not really fit
            into the language. From "nord" + "ånd" and then
            make up a word "nordånd", wouldn't really work well.

            "Nordens ånd" would work, but it already sounds as if it was from
            the 19th century. (which it is)
            "Verdensånden" = "the world spirit" (anima mundi)
            (= "andi heimsins", most likely)

            You *can* however say "nordmann" (=norðmaður).
            But somehow it doesn't work so well for "nordånd" (=norðandi).
            Maybe because "ånd" is an abstract concept. (?)



            >What is taboo, then, or just not particularly impressive to anyone,
            >is people making up words without being qualified to do so. Would
            >you honestly be positive to foreigners making up English words
            >without even being fluent in English?
            >
            >The most important point is, however:
            >
            >*Please do NOT provide false, deliberately made-up words without
            >explicit warning*
            >
            >People were, to my knowledge, asking for a real word. It really
            >undermines the work of both the teachers and the students to have
            >false information floating around.
            >
            >As to an ON word to express the concept of "Spirit of the North"...
            >quite tricky, because that is to my mind a rather vague, romantic
            >concept, quite foreign to the ON mindset as I'm familiar with it.
            >This much must be clear, IMO.

            In classical antiquity they had all kinds of spirits.
            And so the concept does predate romanticism by quite
            a few centuries. But those were spirits of planets
            or of trees, etc. I am not sure they had land spirits.
            What I see as a typically romantic concept is the idea
            of a "folkesjel" (=the spirit of a nation).
            (þjóðarsál? þjóðsál? which of the two?)
            In the Trojan war, for example, it seems both nations
            had the same gods. But maybe different gods supported
            different sides ?

            > "Andi norðrsins" means literally "spirit of the north", but such a
            >phrase is, ironically, very unlike the spirit of the north. Reading
            >the sagas, you will find the language in them to be much more down-
            >to-earth, generally unromantic (some sagas are markedly more
            >romantic than others). When romanticism occurs, it is not for "the
            >North", but rather for kings, heroes, and honour. Nationalism and
            >cultural romanticism are modern concepts, remember :)

            Anything that ends in -ism is of course modern :)

            Best regards
            Keth
          • Rainbow Sky
            Hi all, I ve been enjoying the course, but slowly. Personal Testimony: Thanks to the Norse Course, my friend and I can enjoy a relatively lengthy discussion
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 2, 2002
              Hi all,

              I've been enjoying the course, but slowly.

              Personal Testimony:
              "Thanks to the Norse Course, my friend and I
              can enjoy a relatively lengthy
              discussion of black cheese and long swords."

              I have a question, and if this is answered elsewhere
              please direct me to it: what is the relationship
              between modern Icelandic and Old Norse?

              > Must say though, that it's not entirely true that
              > it's taboo to make up words in Icelandic. Quite
              > untrue, actually.

              I have been impressed with what I've read about
              the Icelanders desire to maintain the integrity
              of their language. Am I correct in recalling
              that the word for _electricity_ is derived from
              the Icelandic for _lightning_ and _stone_?

              I love that the English language has incorporated
              so many influences into it, yet I respect a people's
              desire to coin their own terms.

              > Nationalism and cultural romanticism are modern
              > concepts, remember :)

              That is all too true!

              For the mind set of the original Old Norse speakers,
              what would y'all recommend reading?

              Cheers,
              Mike

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball
              http://sports.yahoo.com
            • Haukur Thorgeirsson
              Hi Mike! ... allow. Does anyone else want to contribute a quotable testimony? ... I don t have the answer to this on the homepage but I probably should. Making
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 2, 2002
                Hi Mike!


                > Personal Testimony:
                > "Thanks to the Norse Course, my friend and I
                > can enjoy a relatively lengthy
                > discussion of black cheese and long swords."

                :D I think I'll put that on the homepage if you'll
                allow. Does anyone else want to contribute a quotable
                testimony?


                > I have a question, and if this is answered elsewhere
                > please direct me to it: what is the relationship
                > between modern Icelandic and Old Norse?

                I don't have the answer to this on the homepage but
                I probably should. Making a FAQ would be a good idea.

                Very quickly the relationship between modern Icelandic
                and Old Norse is similar to the relationship between the
                English you speak and the English of the King James Bible.


                > I have been impressed with what I've read about
                > the Icelanders desire to maintain the integrity
                > of their language. Am I correct in recalling
                > that the word for _electricity_ is derived from
                > the Icelandic for _lightning_ and _stone_?

                Not quite. Our word for electricity is 'rafmagn';
                made from 'raf' meaning amber and 'magn' meaning
                might or power. Thus 'rafmagn' is amber-power.
                This is, more or less, a translation of the greek
                word. The greek word for amber gives you the electro
                words.

                One problem with the 'rafmagn' is translating Philip
                Pullman's books. The English fantasist Philip Pullman
                uses amber-words for electrical phenomena in his Dark
                Materials books. The solution of the Icelandic translator
                is to use 'ambur' instead of 'raf'. This seems rather
                absurd. The Icelandic (loan) word 'ambur' doesn't mean
                amber but ambergris - as far as I know.

                Anyway, we don't use homemade words for everything;
                plastic is simply 'plast' for example. I think the
                Finns have their own word for plastic, but I don't
                remember what it is.


                > For the mind set of the original Old Norse speakers,
                > what would y'all recommend reading?

                Why, Old Norse literature of course! :)

                I don't know which popularisations or overviews are
                good since I have read so few of them.

                Kveðja,
                Haukur
              • Rainbow Sky
                Haukur, My apologies for taking so long to reply. ... Please do! ... Thank you. I suspected this was probably the case. And, yes, I have read the following
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 7, 2002
                  Haukur,

                  My apologies for taking so long to reply.

                  >> Personal Testimony:
                  >> "Thanks to the Norse Course, my friend and I
                  >> can enjoy a relatively lengthy
                  >> discussion of black cheese and long swords."

                  > :D I think I'll put that on the homepage if you'll
                  > allow.

                  Please do!

                  > Very quickly the relationship between modern
                  > Icelandic and Old Norse is similar to the
                  > relationship between the English you speak
                  > and the English of the King James Bible.

                  Thank you. I suspected this was probably the case.
                  And, yes, I have read the following e-mails which
                  also used this analogy.

                  > Not quite. Our word for electricity is 'rafmagn';
                  > made from 'raf' meaning amber and 'magn' meaning
                  > might or power. Thus 'rafmagn' is amber-power.
                  > This is, more or less, a translation of the greek
                  > word.

                  That sounds like a practical approach.

                  This makes me wonder.
                  Do you know how the pre-modern Old Norse speakers
                  treated unfamiliar objects? That is, when they
                  encountered something for the first time, did
                  they tend to create new names, or would they
                  adopt the names used by the people who
                  introduced them to the thing?

                  Cheers,
                  Mike

                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
                  http://mail.yahoo.com/
                • mdehners@aol.com
                  In a message dated 3/8/02 1:50:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, ... others can probably answer this better than I, but from botanical nomenclature it s amazing how
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 8, 2002
                    In a message dated 3/8/02 1:50:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, rainbowskymann@... writes:
                    Do you know how the pre-modern Old Norse speakers
                    treated unfamiliar objects? That is, when they
                    encountered something for the first time, did
                    they tend to create new names, or would they
                    adopt the names used by the people who
                    introduced them to the thing?



                    others can probably answer this better than I, but from botanical nomenclature it's amazing how many unrelated and sometimes dissimilar in appearance plants have the same name accross Europe and Scandinavia<G>..
                    Most not as famous as Yggdrasill<G>..
                    FriðR,
                    Pat. 
                  • Tony Glister
                    Change adopt to adapt and you ve cracked it. Revd Tony Glister ... From: mdehners@aol.com To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 3:37 PM
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 8, 2002
                      Change adopt to adapt and you've cracked it.
                       
                      Revd Tony Glister
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 3:37 PM
                      Subject: Re: [norse_course] Re: nonsense schmonsense

                      In a message dated 3/8/02 1:50:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, rainbowskymann@... writes:
                      Do you know how the pre-modern Old Norse speakers
                      treated unfamiliar objects? That is, when they
                      encountered something for the first time, did
                      they tend to create new names, or would they
                      adopt the names used by the people who
                      introduced them to the thing?



                      others can probably answer this better than I, but from botanical nomenclature it's amazing how many unrelated and sometimes dissimilar in appearance plants have the same name accross Europe and Scandinavia<G>..
                      Most not as famous as Yggdrasill<G>..
                      FriðR,
                      Pat. 


                      Sumir hafa kvæði...
                      ...aðrir spakmæli.

                      - Keth

                      Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/

                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com


                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.