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Re: [norse_course] hard a in norse

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  • Lazarus
    ... From: hrimalf To: Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:12 AM Subject: [norse_course] hard a in
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 20, 2002
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "hrimalf" <hrimalf@...>
      To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:12 AM
      Subject: [norse_course] hard a in norse


      >...So why a in 'father'
      > rather than in 'pasta'?
      >
      > Hrimalfr

      A perfect example of what Chad/icelandstone posted earlier about
      pronunication across languages.

      In my dialect, 'father' and 'pasta' use the exact same vowel sound. Go
      figure.

      -Laz
    • Twm Ffresiar
      That would go for me too. Since I m more interested in reviving modern usage of the language in day to day interactions, I prefer to tackle the problem of
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 21, 2002
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        That would go for me too. Since I'm more interested in
        reviving modern usage of the language in day to day
        interactions, I prefer to tackle the problem of
        pronounciation with a grounding historical accent
        (emphasis on certain vowels and syllables) combined
        with my modern Western Vinnish accent...I can't really
        change how I talk anyways unless I moved to another
        country for several years. So I don't really even
        bother with these kinds of things. Except to get the
        word right. ;)

        Toki


        --- Lazarus <lazarus@...> wrote:
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "hrimalf" <hrimalf@...>
        > To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:12 AM
        > Subject: [norse_course] hard a in norse
        >
        >
        > >...So why a in 'father'
        > > rather than in 'pasta'?
        > >
        > > Hrimalfr
        >
        > A perfect example of what Chad/icelandstone posted
        > earlier about
        > pronunication across languages.
        >
        > In my dialect, 'father' and 'pasta' use the exact
        > same vowel sound. Go
        > figure.
        >
        > -Laz
        >
        >


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      • icelandstone
        ... Go ... I am a native speaker of English, and in my dialect pasta and father are both pronounced with /a/, not with the /æ/ ~ /a/ distinction
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 23, 2002
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          >
          > >...So why a in 'father'
          > > rather than in 'pasta'?
          > >
          > > Hrimalfr
          >
          > A perfect example of what Chad/icelandstone posted earlier about
          > pronunication across languages.
          >
          > In my dialect, 'father' and 'pasta' use the exact same vowel sound.
          Go
          > figure.
          >
          > -Laz


          I am a native speaker of English, and in my dialect 'pasta'
          and 'father' are both pronounced with /a/, not with the /æ/ ~ /a/
          distinction maintained in some parts of Britain. The thing British
          speakers should remember here is that the people in Britain who
          pronounce 'pasta' /pæ:st@/ (distinguishing it from the 'a'
          in 'father') are not pronouncing it as in Italian, where it's
          invariably /pa:sta/.

          I realize not everyone on this list is a phonologist (or even a
          linguist), but it has to be realized that sounds in languages other
          than English cannot be described with the traditional English
          phonological terminology, like 'hard', 'soft', 'long a' (meaning /e/
          not /a/), etc.

          I realize also that the various books in English provide horrendous
          descriptions of the phonological systems, using this very same
          outdated terminology!

          Chad
        • Lazarus
          Chad, Can you provide us (me) with your suggestion for a book, website, etcetera that has decent descriptors of proper phonology? As an epigrapher, I study the
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 24, 2002
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            Chad,

            Can you provide us (me) with your suggestion for a book, website, etcetera
            that has decent descriptors of proper phonology?

            As an epigrapher, I study the visual aspects of letterform through the time,
            and an obvious problem occurs when making phonological comparisons between
            letterforms as the oral and written languages evolve. The runes, especially,
            are nightmare.

            I'd expect that some sort of audio component would be neccessary to
            completely convey the phonology. Do you have any idea what a beginner might
            find best?

            -Laz

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "icelandstone" <chad@...>
            To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2002 5:54 AM
            Subject: [norse_course] Re: hard a in norse


            >
            > >
            > > >...So why a in 'father'
            > > > rather than in 'pasta'?
            > > >
            > > > Hrimalfr
            > >
            > > A perfect example of what Chad/icelandstone posted earlier about
            > > pronunication across languages.
            > >
            > > In my dialect, 'father' and 'pasta' use the exact same vowel sound.
            > Go
            > > figure.
            > >
            > > -Laz
            >
            >
            > I am a native speaker of English, and in my dialect 'pasta'
            > and 'father' are both pronounced with /a/, not with the /æ/ ~ /a/
            > distinction maintained in some parts of Britain. The thing British
            > speakers should remember here is that the people in Britain who
            > pronounce 'pasta' /pæ:st@/ (distinguishing it from the 'a'
            > in 'father') are not pronouncing it as in Italian, where it's
            > invariably /pa:sta/.
            >
            > I realize not everyone on this list is a phonologist (or even a
            > linguist), but it has to be realized that sounds in languages other
            > than English cannot be described with the traditional English
            > phonological terminology, like 'hard', 'soft', 'long a' (meaning /e/
            > not /a/), etc.
            >
            > I realize also that the various books in English provide horrendous
            > descriptions of the phonological systems, using this very same
            > outdated terminology!
            >
            > Chad
            >
            >
            >
            > Sumir hafa kvæði...
            > ...aðrir spakmæli.
            >
            > - Keth
            >
            > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Louis Erickson
            ... I know that in reading along, I ve been slightly frustrated by the inability to hear what things sound like. Several people have pointed out several
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 25, 2002
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              On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Lazarus wrote:

              > I'd expect that some sort of audio component would be neccessary to
              > completely convey the phonology. Do you have any idea what a beginner might
              > find best?

              I know that in reading along, I've been slightly frustrated by the
              inability to hear what things sound like.

              Several people have pointed out several interesting samples of ON
              recordings on the Web. This is fascinating and useful, and I have
              listened to them. I haven't looked yet, but wonder if there isn't an
              Icelandic radio station doing webcasting, which might help get closer, and
              would have a constant stream of things to listen to.

              I have also found several written attempts at someone trying to describe
              what things sound like, in terms of descriptions, or words that sound like
              it. But, ask someone from New York City and someone from Boston and
              someone from Dallas to say, "Park the car around the corner." and you'll
              get three very different sounding sentences. This obviously has it's
              shortcomings.

              What would make me very happy is to have the two combined. If someone
              would record what the descriptions are trying to convey, and put those
              sounds up, along with the descriptions, as samples, it would be the most
              helpful, particularly for the letters which are not part of English.

              I would be happy to help with this however I can; I can't record the
              sounds, or probably even write the descriptions, because I don't know what
              things should sound like. If someone would write up the descriptions, and
              record the sounds, I would be happy to write web pages and host them.

              --
              Louis Erickson - wwonko@... - http://www.rdwarf.com/~wwonko/

              Computer Science is merely the post-Turing decline in formal systems
              theory.
            • Hrimalf
              Lazurus said (cant get the hang of quoting online-sorry!) would be useful to hear an icelnadic radio station... or words to that effect. I actually meant I
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 26, 2002
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                Lazurus said (cant get the hang of quoting
                online-sorry!) "would be useful to hear an icelnadic
                radio station..." or words to that effect.

                I actually meant I was interested in resurrecting as
                accurately as possible "Viking speech" (Sounds a bit
                melodramatic but you know what I mean) rather than
                using the mutated but similar pronunciation of modern
                icelandic. I think Barnes took his suggestions from a
                medival text on grammer or something? I willn find out
                the name when I find that book again but does anyone
                know anything about this?

                Hrimalfr

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              • icelandstone
                The text you re referring to is the _First Grammatical Treatise_. Tarrin Wills at the University of Sydney has an excellent page which includes not only his
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 27, 2002
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                  The text you're referring to is the _First Grammatical Treatise_.

                  Tarrin Wills at the University of Sydney has an excellent page which
                  includes not only his dissertation on the _First Grammatical
                  Treatise_ but also a very well-designed course in Old Icelandic.
                  Unfortunately it doesn't provide much in the way of phonology other
                  than explaining vowel mutations through their phonological causations.

                  But in my opinion, trying to pronounce Old Icelandic as it was spoken
                  1100 years ago is pointless. Languages change. Pronouncing Old
                  Icelandic with the modern sounds (not so terribly different in any
                  case) is perfectly acceptable and is even done here in Iceland, where
                  we speak the language every day. Language is a continuum, not a self-
                  contained period in time. Think diachronic, not synchronic.

                  Chad



                  --- In norse_course@y..., Hrimalf <hrimalf@y...> wrote:
                  > Lazurus said (cant get the hang of quoting
                  > online-sorry!) "would be useful to hear an icelnadic
                  > radio station..." or words to that effect.
                  >
                  > I actually meant I was interested in resurrecting as
                  > accurately as possible "Viking speech" (Sounds a bit
                  > melodramatic but you know what I mean) rather than
                  > using the mutated but similar pronunciation of modern
                  > icelandic. I think Barnes took his suggestions from a
                  > medival text on grammer or something? I willn find out
                  > the name when I find that book again but does anyone
                  > know anything about this?
                  >
                  > Hrimalfr
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > Everything you'll ever need on one web page
                  > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
                  > http://uk.my.yahoo.com
                • Stuntie
                  The work is The first gramamtical treatsie. basically the unknown author is postualting a standardised writing system for Old Icelandic. To prove his point he
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 27, 2002
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                    The work is The first gramamtical treatsie.

                    basically the unknown author is postualting a standardised writing system
                    for Old Icelandic. To prove his point he discusses Old Icelandic phonology
                    to determine what differences there are that should be distinguished. He
                    even goes so far as to suggest distinguishing nasalised vowels!

                    He uses minimal pair e.g. pig, big to distinguish sounds - a very modern
                    approach, for a medieval text.

                    Its an excellent little work, and is available in translation (First
                    gramamtical treatsie, Ed. Einar Haugen, 1972), but like many such books, is
                    probably out of print now.

                    Stuntie

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Hrimalf [mailto:hrimalf@...]
                    Sent: 26 February 2002 18:55
                    To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [norse_course] Re: hard a in norse


                    Lazurus said (cant get the hang of quoting
                    online-sorry!) "would be useful to hear an icelnadic
                    radio station..." or words to that effect.

                    I actually meant I was interested in resurrecting as
                    accurately as possible "Viking speech" (Sounds a bit
                    melodramatic but you know what I mean) rather than
                    using the mutated but similar pronunciation of modern
                    icelandic. I think Barnes took his suggestions from a
                    medival text on grammer or something? I willn find out
                    the name when I find that book again but does anyone
                    know anything about this?

                    Hrimalfr

                    __________________________________________________
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                    Everything you'll ever need on one web page
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                    Sumir hafa kvæði...
                    ...aðrir spakmæli.

                    - Keth

                    Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/

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