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quick question on 1 norse word

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  • odysseus0042
    Could someone tell me the norse word for year . I m guessing it should be something like [jar] (in IPA transcription), cog. OE gear & German Jahr .
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 1, 2002
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      Could someone tell me the norse word for "year". I'm guessing it
      should be something like [jar] (in IPA transcription), cog. OE 'gear'
      & German 'Jahr'.

      thanks, Ben.
    • Selvarv Stigard
      ... ár - refers to both the year, and the year s harvest (har-vest literally being year-feast ) -Selv -- Selvårv Stigård selvarv@ragnarokr.com
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 1, 2002
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        Ben wrote:
        >Could someone tell me the norse word for "year". I'm guessing it
        >should be something like [jar] (in IPA transcription), cog. OE 'gear'
        >& German 'Jahr'.

        ár - refers to both the year, and the year's harvest (har-vest
        literally being "year-feast")

        -Selv

        --
        Selvårv Stigård
        selvarv@...
        Administrator, RagnarökR.com web site and email distribution
        "Beep-Beep! is the Esperanto of comedy."
        -Chuck Jones
      • odysseus0042
        Thanks for this information. I was trying to find some good example of a Norse word beginning with y (not the letter, but the sound of the first letter of
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 1, 2002
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          Thanks for this information. I was trying to find some good example
          of a Norse word beginning with "y" (not the letter, but the sound of
          the first letter of English "yawn"--[j] in IPA) which is cognate with
          an Old English word beginning with the sound "y" ([j] in IPA). I was
          thinking 'gear'/"year"/'Jahr' would be a good example, but the Norse
          seems to have lost the initial consonant. Thanks, Ben.

          --- In norse_course@y..., Selvarv Stigard <selvarv@r...> wrote:
          > Ben wrote:
          > >Could someone tell me the norse word for "year". I'm guessing it
          > >should be something like [jar] (in IPA transcription), cog.
          OE 'gear'
          > >& German 'Jahr'.
          >
          > ár - refers to both the year, and the year's harvest (har-vest
          > literally being "year-feast")
          >
          > -Selv
          >
          > --
          > Selvårv Stigård
          > selvarv@r...
          > Administrator, RagnarökR.com web site and email distribution
          > "Beep-Beep! is the Esperanto of comedy."
          > -Chuck Jones
        • Selvarv Stigard
          ... oh, in that case: játa - yes jóð - youth Jól - Yule -Selv -- Selvårv Stigård selvarv@ragnarokr.com Administrator, RagnarökR.com web site and email
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 2, 2002
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            Bwn wrote:
            >Thanks for this information. I was trying to find some good example
            >of a Norse word beginning with "y" (not the letter, but the sound of
            >the first letter of English "yawn"--[j] in IPA) which is cognate with
            >an Old English word beginning with the sound "y" ([j] in IPA). I was
            >thinking 'gear'/"year"/'Jahr' would be a good example, but the Norse
            >seems to have lost the initial consonant. Thanks, Ben.

            oh, in that case:

            játa - yes
            jóð - youth
            Jól - Yule

            -Selv

            --
            Selvårv Stigård
            selvarv@...
            Administrator, RagnarökR.com web site and email distribution
            "Beep-Beep! is the Esperanto of comedy."
            -Chuck Jones
          • Lazarus
            There s something interesting about Old Norse when it s written. Many vowels may also be used as consonants and there oscillation between use and non-use is a
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 2, 2002
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              There's something interesting about Old Norse when it's written.

              Many vowels may also be used as consonants and there oscillation between use
              and non-use is a constant struggle for epigraphers like myself, because
              these vowel-consonants Y/V/W are problems in every written language.

              Here is a list of the vowels that could also be used as consonants in Old
              Norse:
              Á for both Y and itself

              Í for Y before A, E or O

              Ú for V or W before A or O

              Ó for both W and itself

              É for both Y and itself

              As you can see, Old Norse is nice enough to distinguish these letters with
              an accent mark.

              The rune that was used for Old Norse 'Á' named 'Ár' (Year) is the same rune
              and translation given to the Elder Rune 'J/Y' named 'Jera' (Year) only a few
              centuries earlier (or a few hundred miles to the south).

              The blur between 'Ó' and 'W' is noticeable in the transition of, for
              instance, the name of the god Wodan or Wotan from the European continent to
              Ódin in Norway and Iceland. Same god, same name, same translation meaning
              'The Great Passion'. Slightly different spelling due to the loss of the rune
              for the vowel-consonant 'W'.

              -Laz



              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "odysseus0042" <odysseus0042@...>
              To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 9:38 PM
              Subject: [norse_course] Re: quick question on 1 norse word


              > Thanks for this information. I was trying to find some good example
              > of a Norse word beginning with "y" (not the letter, but the sound of
              > the first letter of English "yawn"--[j] in IPA) which is cognate with
              > an Old English word beginning with the sound "y" ([j] in IPA). I was
              > thinking 'gear'/"year"/'Jahr' would be a good example, but the Norse
              > seems to have lost the initial consonant. Thanks, Ben.
              >
              > --- In norse_course@y..., Selvarv Stigard <selvarv@r...> wrote:
              > > Ben wrote:
              > > >Could someone tell me the norse word for "year". I'm guessing it
              > > >should be something like [jar] (in IPA transcription), cog.
              > OE 'gear'
              > > >& German 'Jahr'.
              > >
              > > ár - refers to both the year, and the year's harvest (har-vest
              > > literally being "year-feast")
              > >
              > > -Selv
              > >
              > > --
              > > Selvårv Stigård
              > > selvarv@r...
              > > Administrator, RagnarökR.com web site and email distribution
              > > "Beep-Beep! is the Esperanto of comedy."
              > > -Chuck Jones
              >
              >
              > Sumir hafa kvæði...
              > ...aðrir spakmæli.
              >
              > - Keth
              >
              > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • robert blank
              Heill The word would be ár. jar is more primative Norse. Rob ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 2, 2002
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                Heill

                The word would be "�r." 'jar' is more primative
                Norse.

                Rob

                --- odysseus0042 <odysseus0042@...> wrote:
                > Could someone tell me the norse word for "year".
                > I'm guessing it
                > should be something like [jar] (in IPA
                > transcription), cog. OE 'gear'
                > & German 'Jahr'.
                >
                > thanks, Ben.
                >
                >
                > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                >
                > Sumir hafa kv��i...
                > ...a�rir spakm�li.
                >
                > - Keth
                >
                > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >


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              • Haukur Thorgeirsson
                ... I have no idea what you are saying :-) Where can Á stand for Y ? What sound do you mean with Y ? Kveðja, Haukur
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 3, 2002
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                  > Here is a list of the vowels that could also be used as consonants in Old
                  > Norse:
                  > Á for both Y and itself
                  >
                  > Í for Y before A, E or O
                  >
                  > Ú for V or W before A or O
                  >
                  > Ó for both W and itself
                  >
                  > É for both Y and itself

                  I have no idea what you are saying :-)
                  Where can 'Á' stand for 'Y'?
                  What sound do you mean with 'Y'?

                  Kveðja,
                  Haukur
                • Lazarus
                  ... From: Haukur Thorgeirsson To: Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 8:05 AM Subject: Re: [norse_course] Re:
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 3, 2002
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Haukur Thorgeirsson" <haukurth@...>
                    To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 8:05 AM
                    Subject: Re: [norse_course] Re: quick question on 1 norse word


                    > > Here is a list of the vowels that could also be used as consonants in
                    Old
                    > > Norse:
                    > > Á for both Y and itself
                    > >
                    > > Í for Y before A, E or O
                    > >
                    > > Ú for V or W before A or O
                    > >
                    > > Ó for both W and itself
                    > >
                    > > É for both Y and itself
                    >
                    > I have no idea what you are saying :-)
                    > Where can 'Á' stand for 'Y'?
                    > What sound do you mean with 'Y'?
                    >
                    > Kveðja,
                    > Haukur

                    Pardon me.

                    I mean the consonantal use of the American English letter 'Y' as in 'Yet'
                    and 'You'.

                    The Old Norse and Icelandic letter 'É' all by itself can stand for the
                    American English equivalent of 'YE'.
                    The Old Norse letter 'Á' all by itself can stand for the American English
                    equivalent of 'Y(ow)'.
                    But just because it can, doesn't mean it usually is.

                    To me it is clear that the Old Norse 'Ár' was pronounced 'Y(ow)r', for it's
                    continental and Anglo-Saxon equivalents began with and continued to use the
                    'J/Y' consonant in both spelling and pronunciation.

                    This is just my own opinion and not the only one.

                    -Laz
                  • Selvarv Stigard
                    ... Lazarus answer to you confirms what I thought he meant, but I wasn t sure before. At least in America, English is not taught to natives with any basic
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 3, 2002
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                      Lazarus wrote:
                      >>Here is a list of the vowels that could also be used as consonants in Old
                      >>Norse:
                      >>Á for both Y and itself
                      >>
                      >>Í for Y before A, E or O
                      >>
                      >>Ú for V or W before A or O
                      >>
                      >>Ó for both W and itself
                      >>
                      >>É for both Y and itself

                      Haukur replied:
                      >I have no idea what you are saying :-)
                      >Where can 'Á' stand for 'Y'?
                      >What sound do you mean with 'Y'?

                      Lazarus' answer to you confirms what I thought he meant, but I wasn't
                      sure before.

                      At least in America, English is not taught to natives with any basic
                      linguistic concepts - rather than being told that Y is a semi-vowel,
                      we're taught that the vowels are "A, E, I, O, U and sometimes Y" -
                      and other concepts, such as the diphthong, are completely lacking.
                      So, rather than thinking of Y as a semi-vowel, really having the same
                      value as the Icelandic J, Americans usually think of Y as a consonant
                      which sometimes acts like a vowel, such as in the case of "rhythm".

                      I think Lazarus is trying to explain to other English-speakers, that
                      Á sounds like "YA" and É sounds like "YE", which in standard American
                      English would be considered to be a consonant and a vowel, not a
                      diphthong. However, to my understanding, this is not quite right - É
                      does sound like "YE" to us, but Á sounds more like "AW" - "ár"
                      doesn't sound how "yar" would be said in English, but how "awr" would
                      be said.

                      -Selv

                      --
                      Selvårv Stigård
                      selvarv@...
                      Administrator, RagnarökR.com web site and email distribution
                      "Beep-Beep! is the Esperanto of comedy."
                      -Chuck Jones
                    • Lazarus
                      ... From: Selvarv Stigard ... Thank you. Yes, this is what I was saying. But to my Mid-Western accent, AW doesn t sound anything
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 3, 2002
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                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Selvarv Stigard" <selvarv@...>

                        > I think Lazarus is trying to explain to other English-speakers, that
                        > Á sounds like "YA" and É sounds like "YE", which in standard American
                        > English would be considered to be a consonant and a vowel, not a
                        > diphthong. However, to my understanding, this is not quite right - É
                        > does sound like "YE" to us, but Á sounds more like "AW" - "ár"
                        > doesn't sound how "yar" would be said in English, but how "awr" would
                        > be said.
                        >
                        > -Selv

                        Thank you. Yes, this is what I was saying.

                        But to my Mid-Western accent, 'AW' doesn't sound anything like 'Á' and my
                        trying to pronounce it so would be incorrect.

                        To illustrate:

                        The Icelandic word "ár" to me sounds exactly like the Mid-Western word
                        "hour" with slightly rounded lips.

                        When I listen to 'Á', I equate it with the vowel sounded in 'found', 'ouch',
                        'plow' and 'kow-tow'.
                        The vowel sounded in 'paw', 'claw', 'saw' and 'pawn' does not sound to me
                        that way I've heard "ár" spoken. But then, I might have been hearing a
                        colloquialism that doesn't apply.

                        I was not saying Old Norse "ár" sounded like "yar" but like slightly like
                        "yowr" (see above) though I think I can imagine it like "yawr" as sort of
                        like "yawn" or "y'all".

                        -Lazarus
                      • icelandstone
                        OK, OK. This is getting sort of strained. ár as pronounced in Iceland today is /aur/. These are the standard IPA symbols and should be taken as such,
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 3, 2002
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                          OK, OK.

                          This is getting sort of strained.

                          'ár' as pronounced in Iceland today is /aur/. These are the standard
                          IPA symbols and should be taken as such, except that the /r/ is
                          devoiced. The orthographical convention 'á' is a true diphthong and
                          should be regarded as such. The orthographical convention 'é' is NOT
                          a diphthong but rather a modern way of writing the sounds /jE/
                          (with /j/ being the palatal approximate (or 'framgómmælt hliðarhljóð'
                          in Icelandic phonological terminology) and /E/ being the open-mid
                          front lax vowel). This sound was written in Icelandic as 'je' for
                          many years up until the spelling reforms of the early part of this
                          century, cf. 'jeg er hjer' in older texts for modern 'ég er
                          hér'. 'Ár' has not been pronounced with the /j/ glide since before
                          Scandinavian broke off from Common Germanic, as can be seen in
                          Danish/Norwegian 'år'. /jE/ as in the first person singular
                          pronoun 'ég' only began to be pronounced with the glide a few
                          centuries ago, cf. 'ek' in the fornkvæði or runic 'ek hlewegastiR'.

                          The use of orthographic 'y' should never be used to describe the /j/
                          glide in languages other than English. This is one of only a handful
                          of languages using it for this purpose (French and Spanish being the
                          others) and provides only confusion for the people seeing it. It
                          cannot possibly be difficult for people to learn to use /j/ for this
                          purpose. IPA exists for a reason, and is relatively simple to use,
                          especially in broad transcriptions (those using / / and not [ ]).

                          Best,

                          Chad




                          --- In norse_course@y..., "Lazarus" <lazarus@f...> wrote:
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Selvarv Stigard" <selvarv@r...>
                          >
                          > > I think Lazarus is trying to explain to other English-speakers,
                          that
                          > > Á sounds like "YA" and É sounds like "YE", which in standard
                          American
                          > > English would be considered to be a consonant and a vowel, not a
                          > > diphthong. However, to my understanding, this is not quite
                          right - É
                          > > does sound like "YE" to us, but Á sounds more like "AW" - "ár"
                          > > doesn't sound how "yar" would be said in English, but how "awr"
                          would
                          > > be said.
                          > >
                          > > -Selv
                          >
                          > Thank you. Yes, this is what I was saying.
                          >
                          > But to my Mid-Western accent, 'AW' doesn't sound anything like 'Á'
                          and my
                          > trying to pronounce it so would be incorrect.
                          >
                          > To illustrate:
                          >
                          > The Icelandic word "ár" to me sounds exactly like the Mid-Western
                          word
                          > "hour" with slightly rounded lips.
                          >
                          > When I listen to 'Á', I equate it with the vowel sounded
                          in 'found', 'ouch',
                          > 'plow' and 'kow-tow'.
                          > The vowel sounded in 'paw', 'claw', 'saw' and 'pawn' does not sound
                          to me
                          > that way I've heard "ár" spoken. But then, I might have been
                          hearing a
                          > colloquialism that doesn't apply.
                          >
                          > I was not saying Old Norse "ár" sounded like "yar" but like
                          slightly like
                          > "yowr" (see above) though I think I can imagine it like "yawr" as
                          sort of
                          > like "yawn" or "y'all".
                          >
                          > -Lazarus
                        • Lazarus
                          This explains a lot. I am not a linguist, so your terminology is new to me. I shall now use IPA standards. As was mentioned before, American school systems do
                          Message 12 of 13 , Feb 4, 2002
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                            This explains a lot.

                            I am not a linguist, so your terminology is new to me. I shall now use IPA
                            standards.

                            As was mentioned before, American school systems do not teach English using
                            linguistic concepts, and unless one were to enter a degree program, there
                            would never be a need to know them.

                            I appreciate the clarification and the new information.

                            -Lazarus

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "icelandstone" <chad@...>
                            To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 12:52 AM
                            Subject: [norse_course] Re: quick question on 1 norse word


                            > OK, OK.
                            >
                            > This is getting sort of strained.
                            >
                            > 'ár' as pronounced in Iceland today is /aur/. These are the standard
                            > IPA symbols and should be taken as such, except that the /r/ is
                            > devoiced. The orthographical convention 'á' is a true diphthong and
                            > should be regarded as such. The orthographical convention 'é' is NOT
                            > a diphthong but rather a modern way of writing the sounds /jE/
                            > (with /j/ being the palatal approximate (or 'framgómmælt hliðarhljóð'
                            > in Icelandic phonological terminology) and /E/ being the open-mid
                            > front lax vowel). This sound was written in Icelandic as 'je' for
                            > many years up until the spelling reforms of the early part of this
                            > century, cf. 'jeg er hjer' in older texts for modern 'ég er
                            > hér'. 'Ár' has not been pronounced with the /j/ glide since before
                            > Scandinavian broke off from Common Germanic, as can be seen in
                            > Danish/Norwegian 'år'. /jE/ as in the first person singular
                            > pronoun 'ég' only began to be pronounced with the glide a few
                            > centuries ago, cf. 'ek' in the fornkvæði or runic 'ek hlewegastiR'.
                            >
                            > The use of orthographic 'y' should never be used to describe the /j/
                            > glide in languages other than English. This is one of only a handful
                            > of languages using it for this purpose (French and Spanish being the
                            > others) and provides only confusion for the people seeing it. It
                            > cannot possibly be difficult for people to learn to use /j/ for this
                            > purpose. IPA exists for a reason, and is relatively simple to use,
                            > especially in broad transcriptions (those using / / and not [ ]).
                            >
                            > Best,
                            >
                            > Chad
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In norse_course@y..., "Lazarus" <lazarus@f...> wrote:
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: "Selvarv Stigard" <selvarv@r...>
                            > >
                            > > > I think Lazarus is trying to explain to other English-speakers,
                            > that
                            > > > Á sounds like "YA" and É sounds like "YE", which in standard
                            > American
                            > > > English would be considered to be a consonant and a vowel, not a
                            > > > diphthong. However, to my understanding, this is not quite
                            > right - É
                            > > > does sound like "YE" to us, but Á sounds more like "AW" - "ár"
                            > > > doesn't sound how "yar" would be said in English, but how "awr"
                            > would
                            > > > be said.
                            > > >
                            > > > -Selv
                            > >
                            > > Thank you. Yes, this is what I was saying.
                            > >
                            > > But to my Mid-Western accent, 'AW' doesn't sound anything like 'Á'
                            > and my
                            > > trying to pronounce it so would be incorrect.
                            > >
                            > > To illustrate:
                            > >
                            > > The Icelandic word "ár" to me sounds exactly like the Mid-Western
                            > word
                            > > "hour" with slightly rounded lips.
                            > >
                            > > When I listen to 'Á', I equate it with the vowel sounded
                            > in 'found', 'ouch',
                            > > 'plow' and 'kow-tow'.
                            > > The vowel sounded in 'paw', 'claw', 'saw' and 'pawn' does not sound
                            > to me
                            > > that way I've heard "ár" spoken. But then, I might have been
                            > hearing a
                            > > colloquialism that doesn't apply.
                            > >
                            > > I was not saying Old Norse "ár" sounded like "yar" but like
                            > slightly like
                            > > "yowr" (see above) though I think I can imagine it like "yawr" as
                            > sort of
                            > > like "yawn" or "y'all".
                            > >
                            > > -Lazarus
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Sumir hafa kvæði...
                            > ...aðrir spakmæli.
                            >
                            > - Keth
                            >
                            > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • odysseus0042
                            Thanks :) Ben.
                            Message 13 of 13 , Feb 4, 2002
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                              Thanks :)

                              Ben.

                              > oh, in that case:
                              >
                              > játa - yes
                              > jóð - youth
                              > Jól - Yule
                              >
                              > -Selv
                              >
                              > --
                              > Selvårv Stigård
                              > selvarv@r...
                              > Administrator, RagnarökR.com web site and email distribution
                              > "Beep-Beep! is the Esperanto of comedy."
                              > -Chuck Jones
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