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Re: [norse_course] Re: Eyrbyggja Saga 29 part 3 - - Elliot's translation

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  • Brian M. Scott
    At 5:28:46 AM on Sunday, June 30, 2013, ... Don’t fall into the trap of thinking that a so-called reflexive form is necessarily reflexive in meaning. It can
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 30, 2013
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      At 5:28:46 AM on Sunday, June 30, 2013,
      elliot.holland@... wrote:

      > You might be able to see my thought process from this
      > sentence.

      > "Lagðist og mjög ómjúkt á með þeim Arnkatli feðgum.

      > --lays (himself, reflex) (leggja, legg, lagða, lagiðr,
      > laginn) and very ómjúkt (noun?) in with them (dat. sing.
      > mas.) Arnkatli (name dat.) father and son (mas. dat. pl.)

      > --(it) lays/puts much ómjúkt with them, Arnkatli, father
      > and son."

      Don’t fall into the trap of thinking that a so-called
      reflexive form is necessarily reflexive in meaning. It can
      be, but it can also be reciprocal or passive, or simply
      change the meaning of the verb. Here it’s even worse: the
      verb is actually <leggjast á> 'to arise', which you’ll find
      in Zoëga s.v. <leggja> (15). I don’t think that one would
      be likely to guess that meaning, but one can sort of see how
      it might have arisen as an extension of 'to lay itself on',
      the more or less literal sense of the phrase.

      <Og> can be 'also' (like German <auch>) as well as 'and'.
      Its placement here is a fairly good indication that it’s
      'also': if it were 'and', it would probably be the first
      word.

      The negative prefix can be <ó-> or <ú->; in the modern
      language it’s the former, but in Zoëga and CV it’s <ú->.
      This <ómjúkt> will be found in Zoëga as the adjective
      <úmjúkr> 'harsh' (literally 'un-soft'). <Ómjúkt> is the
      neuter nominative singular, and as you suspected, it is
      functioning here as a noun, 'harshness'. <Með> is often
      more appropriately read as 'between' or 'among' than as
      'with'; here it’s 'between'.

      Much harshness also arose between Arnkell and his father.

      Brian
    • rob13567
      Yes, it takes definitely takes time. I will post examples of sentences that I judge to be more useful for a beginner (simpler structure, higher frequency
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 1, 2013
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        Yes, it takes definitely takes time. I will post examples of sentences that I judge to be more useful for a beginner (simpler structure, higher frequency vocabulary, etc.). In other words, the ones that I can work with. :)



        --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "elliot.holland@..." <elliot.holland@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thank you. I've been using sagadb.org, so far.
        >
        > I'll definitely try to do the translations from Landaela Saga over the weekends (I'm working on the second half of 69 right now), although it would be nice to know which sentences are more helpful. Right now, from doing the translations, I'm not getting much. You might be able to see my thought process from this sentence.
        >
        > "Lagðist og mjög ómjúkt á með þeim Arnkatli feðgum.
        > --lays (himself, reflex) (leggja, legg, lagða, lagiðr, laginn) and very ómjúkt (noun?) in with them (dat. sing. mas.) Arnkatli (name dat.) father and son (mas. dat. pl.)
        > --(it) lays/puts much ómjúkt with them, Arnkatli, father and son."
        >
        > Obviously I am missing something crucial to be able to translate such sentences, I think it will come with the practice of fairly standard sentences, although I think I can pick them, but thank you for the offer.
        >
        > As for the frustration, it's definitely there while translating, but feel very comfortable using the Byock textbook. It's helping a lot and I am confidant I will be much better when through it. I'm trying to get through as quickly as possible.
        >
        > I will start regularly posting my translations with the next one.
        > Thank all of you for your patience with a beginner.
        >
        > Elliot
        >
        > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "rob13567" <nielsenjava@> wrote:
        > >
        > > In addition to what Brian wrote, you can also find the sagas in the Icelandic Saga database, and here are the two links:
        > >
        > > http://sagadb.org/eyrbyggja_saga
        > > http://sagadb.org/laxdaela_saga
        > >
        > > I will add a couple of possibilities for study. One is to stick with just the Laxdaela Saga, since that is posted on Mondays, and you can do the work over the weekend.
        > >
        > > Another is that you start with selected sentences from the text rather than the necessarily the ones at the beginning. The reason is that you will learn more by translating sentences that are just above your level of expertise. So, there is not going to be as much payback in working with a long, obtuse sentence if you are a beginner. If you wanted, I could even pick some sentences from the upcoming passage that I judge to be more suited pedagogically for translating for people who are newer to Old Icelandic.
        > >
        > > As you get better, you can expand to working with both texts and working with them in their entirety, but you need to make sure that the frustration level doesn't get too high. And with Old Icelandic, the frustration level will always be there, and to succeed you have to find a way to manage it. My opinions, at least!
        > >
        > > Rob
        > >
        > > Rob
        > >
        > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "elliot.holland@" <elliot.holland@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I was actually thinking about trying to do this. As my busiest part of the week is from Monday though Wednesday, I would like to work on the translations over the weekend. If I may ask, where do you get the texts that will be posted? Even if they're not already divided into parts, I would like to have a copy that is in a good web-format, if you know what I mean.
        > > >
        > > > Also, Thank you for your help. I'm still struggling quite a bit with the texts, as it took me almost an hour per sentence for the Eyrbyggja Saga 29, but I think i'm getting more confidant with finding cognates between ON, German, and English. So I will probably only be doing a few lines for at least another few weeks.
        > > >
        > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "rob13567" <nielsenjava@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Glad to have you joining the tranlation!
        > > > >
        > > > > One trick that I used (and in fact still use) is to work on the translation before it is posted, if that's helpful for you. For example, I work Friday, Saturday, and Sunday to do the tranlation of the text that Grace will post on Monday. Sometimes, I don't guess completely accurately how much there is to do, so I may have an extra sentence or two to translate on Monday, but it's nice to spread the work over more days.
        > > > >
        > > > > I think it's fine, too, for you to do a few lines rather than the whole text.
        > > > >
        > > > > Rob
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "elliot.holland@" <elliot.holland@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I'll go ahead and post my Eyrbyggja saga. I didn't make it as far as I wanted to, but I'll give the first 5 lines, so that I can start working on Laxdaela Saga 69 part 1.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > •Eftir það tók Björn vopn sín og gekk í brott og ætlar heim.
        > > > > > --After that(?) took (taka-take: 3 per. sing. past) Björn weapon (vápn: n. acc.) his/for himself (refl. gen.) and went (ganga-go: 3 per. sing. past) at away and intended (gram. ?) home (adv. like german heim)
        > > > > > --After that, Björn took his weapon and went away and meaning to go home
        > > > > >
        > > > > > •En er hann kom upp um Digramúla hljópu upp fyrir honum fimm menn.
        > > > > > --And when he came (koma-come: 3 per. sing. past) up around Digramúla (place name) jumped (hlaupa-jump: 2 per. pl. past) before him (dat.) five (gr. ?) men.
        > > > > > --And when he came up around Digramúla, 5 men jumped in front of him.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > •Þar var Þóroddur,
        > > > > > húskarlar hans tveir og synir Þóris viðleggs.
        > > > > > --There was (vera-be: 3 per. sing. past) Þóroddur (person), farmhands (húskarl. mas. nom. pl.) his (gen.) two and sons ??.
        > > > > > --There was Thóroddur, his two farmhands, and his sons, Thóris vidhleggs.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > •Þeir veittu Birni atgöngu en
        > > > > > hann varðist vel og drengilega.
        > > > > > --they (masc. nom) gave (veita-give: 3 per. pl. past.) --Birni (person? dat.) attack (atganga: f. acc?) and he defended (verja-defend gr?) well and bravely. (are adverbs declined?)
        > > > > >
        > > > > > •Gengu þeir fastast að Þórissynir.
        > > > > > --went (ganga: pres. 3 pers. pl.) they (mas. nom.) firmly (?) to Thorissynir (place name)
        > > > > > --They men went adv? to Thorissynir.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > brott-away
        > > > > > ætla-intend/mean
        > > > > > hljaupa-jump (hubschen cognate?)
        > > > > > fyrir-before/infront of
        > > > > > son-son pl. nom: synir
        > > > > > húskarl-farmhand/servant
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
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