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Re: [norse_course] Re: Vel á talaðr æfingar

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  • Arlie Stephens
    Hi Keth, ... Right off the face of it, if this is a single sentence, it s way too hard. IMO, anyway. Far too long for a single sentence. It s also spelled in
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 7, 2001
      Hi Keth,

      On Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 05:43:55PM -0000, keth@... wrote:

      > I looked through some saga texts. But I felt many of the
      > sentences were too easy. Here is one that is a little bit
      > more difficult than average. But NOTE : I think it is best
      > if you do not use a dictionary. (that's cheating)
      > Okay, here is the sentence :

      Right off the face of it, if this is a single sentence, it's way
      too hard. IMO, anyway. Far too long for a single sentence.

      It's also spelled in an interesting manner. Not one of the normalized
      spellings I've seen. In particular, I see a lot of instances of V where
      the word seems to me to require U. You've also got some special character
      apparantly being represented by the english comma (,) If you are going to
      use transliterations like this, please as a minimum provide a transliteration
      key. (I see the comma always after o; is this your transliteration of the
      o-with-tail, more commonly represented as o-with-2-dots?)

      > Her verða skiot vm skipti, þilik
      > sem grimm hrið kiemi moti bliðv solskini,
      > eðr þvert veðr kiemi at skipi siglanda aaðr
      > goðan byr; ok betr maa hon nv kallaz
      > Severa enn Serena; þviat skirleikinn
      > kastaði hon, þviat hon tekr ser þann
      > vargham, at her aa ofan skemmir hon hann
      > með sva fo,llnum orðum: "Se her," segir
      > hon, "leiðr skaalkr ok full farri! hvilikr
      > þv vart, ok huersv þu drott þinn flatan
      > fot v syniv vt af þinv moðvr hvsi, meðan
      > þv kvnner æigi sva mickla hoftyft, at þv
      > me,ttir þer skamm laust mat [at munni
      > bera hia o,ðrv goðv folki. Ok nu i samri
      > stvnd verð vti, vaandr þorari! af þvisa
      > herbergi með o,llvm þeim fo,ntvm ok ribb-
      > alldvm, er þv drott her inn, sva framt
      > sem þv villt v skemðr vera!"
      >
      > Please read it carefully 2 or 3 times,
      > and make up a list of the words you
      > are unsure about. Maybe you can also
      > state what you *think* this is all
      > about.
      >
      > (that way we can find out what the right level is)

      Hmmm... I'm getting approx 1 word in 3. That's without a dictionary.
      And without doing too much compensation for your odd transcription
      (e.g. "mickla" has letters that don't occur in OI; I suspect "sva"
      should be "svá" ... both _might_ be words I know with unusual
      transcriptions, or might be some other word that I'm not familiar
      with.)

      Anyway, this is well beyond my _reading_ level, probably within my
      _translating_ level (with dictionary). (There's a big difference.)

      --
      Arlie

      (Arlie Stephens arlie@...)
    • keth@online.no
      Hi Arlie! Yes, I agree that it was a bit on the difficult side. It is just that when I looked for sentences in Gunnlaugs saga ormstungu , I found I could read
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 7, 2001
        Hi Arlie!
        Yes, I agree that it was a bit on the difficult side.
        It is just that when I looked for sentences in "Gunnlaugs
        saga ormstungu", I found I could read everything easy
        as cake, which was a bit frustrating, because usually
        when I look at ON texts, there are plenty of words I
        don't know. I therefore took the next saga I had, which
        is something called "Clarus Saga" and was published in
        a scientific edition by a Swede called G. Cederschiöld
        1874. Unfortunately I cannot read the introduction very well,
        because it is all in Latin. But any way, my impression
        is that Cederschiöld has here followed the original
        spelling that you find in the medieval manuscripts.
        As you noted, it is a little different from what one
        often calls "normalized" Old Norse, which I understand
        means to change the spelling of the old manuscripts
        so that it becomes very close to the modern Icelandic spelling.

        The reason why I use a comma for the hooked-o, is because
        there is also a hooked-e in these manuscripts. And I think
        one best approximates the historical form by writing a comma
        after the letter. "v" is of course the same as "u", wherever
        such an identification makes sense. Also note the repeated
        vowels that denote lengthened vowels. In the book these
        double vowels are printed partly on top of each other.
        Apart from these features, I cannot see much else that
        would be difficult.



        --- In norse_course@y..., Arlie Stephens <arlie@w...> wrote:
        > Hi Keth,
        >
        > On Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 05:43:55PM -0000, keth@o... wrote:
        >
        > > I looked through some saga texts. But I felt many of the
        > > sentences were too easy. Here is one that is a little bit
        > > more difficult than average. But NOTE : I think it is best
        > > if you do not use a dictionary. (that's cheating)
        > > Okay, here is the sentence :
        >
        > Right off the face of it, if this is a single sentence, it's way
        > too hard. IMO, anyway. Far too long for a single sentence.

        It was certainly more than a sentence. But I felt that much was
        needed to give the text some kind of context.

        But Arli (!) . . . :), if you sleep on it a night, I am sure
        you will be able to see some glimmerings of light !
        That is what happened to me. Yesterday I honestly didn't
        understand anything. But as I look at it now, I see it
        is beginning to dawn on me. Here are some tips. (and if
        I make an error, all the better, for then we shall have
        something to discuss). Here is the first word you can make
        sense of: "skiot". All you need to remember is the word
        for "shooting" and then remember that shooting is always fast
        (fast like a bullet, we say), and then recall that "skiot"
        could mean "fast/speedy" here.

        Then go to "verða": this clearly is the verb. (=to be)
        "Her" = 'here'; that is standard.

        Now look at the 1st sentence again.
        It says "Here are fast ..."

        Then look for words that can complete this half sentence.
        "vm skipti". Here you recognize the English word "to shift".
        "um skipti" will then be "to shift about". Aha! It means
        "changes". So our sentence now reads:
        "Here are fast going to be some changes..."
        (NB I'm not using a dictionary)

        Once you get this (the beginning), the rest will start
        to come much more easily.
        "hrið": Here remember this as something to do with
        hores-riding. And that nightmares can ride you too.
        Also at childbirth women get these cramps that are
        somewhat similar (periodic). Then, as your eye
        follows the text somewhat further, you see a word for
        "sunshine". Aha! You say, "hrið" means the opposite
        of sunshine, and so it is a shower of bad weather.

        And so we now have succeeded in understanding the whole
        first sentence:
        "Here are going to be some quick changes...
        just like bad weather comes against pleasant sunshine,
        or like cross winds come against a sailing ship before
        the fair wind comes..."

        Something like that....
        (Thus far I did not use a dictionary)
        Then continue to read the rest.
        But NB, and this is important: Try NOT to use
        a dictionary, until you have really tried very
        hard, reading the whole piece several times
        over a period of several days. The probability
        is that you will then have understood it all
        by yourself without any external help.
        Then afterwards you can use the dictionary
        and the grammar book to "fine tune" the translation.

        But, as Gordon pointed out, one should also try to
        read without translating. Just try to see what images
        the words evoke. Try to see "hrið" as a terrible snowstorm,
        but also as the throes that happen to a woman in child-birth.
        Try to see "blið" as someone smiling.. etc..
        Then after a while you will see that you do not need to have
        exact definitions for everything, because such texts are often
        also self-explanatory.

        I believe Gordon has a very important point here.
        Word by word translation (books in hand) is way too slow
        a method for ever learning the language. (life is too
        short). And so one has to try to reach a level of maturity
        where things begin to make sense without external aids.
        And one is usually a lot closer than one thinks !

        But now that I've spent that much time on this rather
        random piece of text, it would be really nice if
        some Icelander (Haukur?) would rewrite the text in
        Icelandic spelling. And perhaps give a few clues.
        (My own ideas may have been partly erroneous)

        The best to you!
        KeÞ.

        >
        > It's also spelled in an interesting manner. Not one of the
        normalized
        > spellings I've seen. In particular, I see a lot of instances of V
        where
        > the word seems to me to require U. You've also got some special
        character
        > apparantly being represented by the english comma (,) If you are
        going to
        > use transliterations like this, please as a minimum provide a
        transliteration
        > key. (I see the comma always after o; is this your transliteration
        of the
        > o-with-tail, more commonly represented as o-with-2-dots?)
        >
        > > Her verða skiot vm skipti, þilik
        > > sem grimm hrið kiemi moti bliðv solskini,
        > > eðr þvert veðr kiemi at skipi siglanda aaðr
        > > goðan byr; ok betr maa hon nv kallaz
        > > Severa enn Serena; þviat skirleikinn
        > > kastaði hon, þviat hon tekr ser þann
        > > vargham, at her aa ofan skemmir hon hann
        > > með sva fo,llnum orðum: "Se her," segir
        > > hon, "leiðr skaalkr ok full farri! hvilikr
        > > þv vart, ok huersv þu drott þinn flatan
        > > fot v syniv vt af þinv moðvr hvsi, meðan
        > > þv kvnner æigi sva mickla hoftyft, at þv
        > > me,ttir þer skamm laust mat [at munni
        > > bera hia o,ðrv goðv folki. Ok nu i samri
        > > stvnd verð vti, vaandr þorari! af þvisa
        > > herbergi með o,llvm þeim fo,ntvm ok ribb-
        > > alldvm, er þv drott her inn, sva framt
        > > sem þv villt v skemðr vera!"
        > >
        > > Please read it carefully 2 or 3 times,
        > > and make up a list of the words you
        > > are unsure about. Maybe you can also
        > > state what you *think* this is all
        > > about.
        > >
        > > (that way we can find out what the right level is)
        >
        > Hmmm... I'm getting approx 1 word in 3. That's without a dictionary.
        > And without doing too much compensation for your odd transcription
        > (e.g. "mickla" has letters that don't occur in OI; I suspect "sva"
        > should be "svá" ... both _might_ be words I know with unusual
        > transcriptions, or might be some other word that I'm not familiar
        > with.)
        >
        > Anyway, this is well beyond my _reading_ level, probably within my
        > _translating_ level (with dictionary). (There's a big difference.)
        >
        > --
        > Arlie
        >
        > (Arlie Stephens
        arlie@w...)
      • falconsword@hotmail.com
        ... I will not point out your mistakes; your sentences are usually beyond repair. ... Vel doesn t mean more , it means well . Á does not mean on in
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 9, 2001
          Anþanarei wrote:

          >I am going to have problems with as well as
          >grammar, but hopefully somebody can point out my mistakes.

          I will not point out your mistakes;
          your sentences are usually beyond repair.


          Example:

          >Vel á talaðr æfingar
          >More on talking exercises.

          "Vel" doesn't mean 'more', it means 'well'.
          "Á" does not mean 'on' in this context,
          the correct preposition is "um".
          "Talaðr" is in the wrong case, gender and number.

          Regards,
          Haukur
        • falconsword@hotmail.com
          ... Oh, okay. A few points: * The style of the text is a bit convulated and learned ; it is not in the best saga-style . * There s a Latin word-game in
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 9, 2001
            Keth kethed:


            >But now that I've spent that much time on this rather
            >random piece of text, it would be really nice if
            >some Icelander (Haukur?) would rewrite the text in
            >Icelandic spelling. And perhaps give a few clues.
            >(My own ideas may have been partly erroneous)

            Oh, okay.

            A few points:

            * The style of the text is a bit convulated
            and "learned"; it is not in the best "saga-style".

            * There's a Latin word-game in there.

            * The first two lines mean something like:
            "Here are sudden changes, such as a grim
            snow-storm came against blithe sunshine..."

            * Varg-hamr = The skin of a wolf
            This is an interesting word in the context.


            Manuscript spelling
            {
            Her verða skiot vm skipti, þilik
            sem grimm hrið kiemi moti bliðv solskini,
            eðr þvert veðr kiemi at skipi siglanda aaðr
            goðan byr; ok betr maa hon nv kallaz
            Severa enn Serena; þviat skirleikinn
            kastaði hon, þviat hon tekr ser þann
            vargham, at her aa ofan skemmir hon hann
            með sva fo,llnum orðum: "Se her," segir
            hon, "leiðr skaalkr ok full farri! hvilikr
            þv vart, ok huersv þu drott þinn flatan
            fot v syniv vt af þinv moðvr hvsi, meðan
            þv kvnner æigi sva mickla hoftyft, at þv
            me,ttir þer skamm laust mat [at munni
            bera hia o,ðrv goðv folki. Ok nu i samri
            stvnd verð vti, vaandr þorari! af þvisa
            herbergi með o,llvm þeim fo,ntvm ok ribb-
            alldvm, er þv drott her inn, sva framt
            sem þv villt v skemðr vera!"
            }

            Normalised spelling
            {
            Hér verða skjót umskipti, þvílík
            sem grimm hríð kæmi móti blíðu sólskini,
            eðr þvert veðr kæmi at skipi siglanda áðr
            góðan byr; ok betr má hon nú kallask
            Severa en Serena; því at skírleikinn
            kastaði hon, því at hon tekr sér þann
            vargham, at hér á ofan skemmir hon hann
            með svá föllnum orðum: "Sjá hér," segir
            hon, "leiðr skálkr ok fullfarri! hvílíkr
            þú vart, ok hversu þú drótt þinn flatan
            fót ósynju út af þínu móðurhúsi, meðan
            þú kunnir eigi svá mikla hoftyft, at þú
            mættir þér skammlaust mat at munni
            bera hjá öðru góðu fólki. Ok nú í samri
            stund verð úti, vándr þorpari! af þvísa
            herbergi með öllum þeim föntum ok
            ribböldum, er þú drótt hér inn, svá framt
            sem þú vilt óskemmðr vera!"
            }
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