Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Talaðr vel á æfingar

Expand Messages
  • keth@online.no
    Hail Anthanarik! I took a quick look at the etymology book this morning. Accordingly æfing would be the same as German Übung (Die Übung macht den
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 7, 2001
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      Hail Anthanarik!

      I took a quick look at the etymology book this
      morning. Accordingly "æfing" would be the same as
      German "Übung" (Die Übung macht den Meister!)
      (=æfingin skapar meistarann)
      But I am not sure the word existed in Old Norse.
      (I didn't know what letter to look under)
      German "üben" is however related to ON "efna".
      So maybe something could be found. I am not sure.

      If I look up English "exercise", I do find several
      Icelandic possibilities, viz.: notkun, iðkun, beiting,
      framkvæmd, æfing, hreyfing, stíl. The problem then is
      to pick the right word from these alternatives that may
      have slightly different meanings. One tip is that
      exercisebook is called "stílabók", which rings a bell
      with me, and can have something to do with the fact
      that we were all under Danish rule for so many centuries.

      I also find words like "reikningsbók". But you'd have to
      ask someone who has gone to an Icelandic elementary school,
      if that is what they called it. I also find phrases like
      "reikna reikningsdæmi". That too sounds like what they'd
      say in school when they are doing math excercises.
      An exercisebook is called "æfingabók". Shooting
      excercises are called "skotæfingar". Here "skot" (n.) is
      a shot. But there is also the verb "skjóta" (skýt, skjótum,
      skaut, skutum, skyti, skotið). From this row it can be seen
      that the noun is probably formed from the past participle.
      And yet, when the composite "skotæfingar" is formed, it
      is the noun that is used.

      With respect to singing, I find the word "söngvakvöld"
      for an evening when one gets together to sing. A song is
      called "söngur" (n.). The verb is "syngja" (syng, syngjum,
      söng, sungum, syngi, sungið). Here the noun seems to
      have been formed from the past tense of the verb.
      I was looking for a word for "singing exercises", but I
      didn't find it. I was also trying to see if there was
      a rule for how such words are formed. But I fail to
      see a clear cut rule. It is much easier in my own language,
      for there I just KNOW.

      Conclusion: It is not advisable to try to make up ones
      own words. There are so many pitfalls, that one is almost
      certain to arrive at false conclusions. Let's ask the
      Icelanders for help instead. Old Norse is different,
      because nearly all its words that we can know about are
      already in dictionaries, and there is no one we can ask
      if we seek a word that is not in the dictionary. We can
      of course try to make up our own words. But how can
      we be sure we then follow the rules a native speaker
      of Old Norse would have followed a 1000 years ago ?

      Kveðju,
      KeÞ.






      > Meir um töluðræfingar
      >
      > Is there an umlaut here æ as in u.
      >
      >
      >
      > A¨
    • Arlie Stephens
      Hi Keth, ... Right off the face of it, if this is a single sentence, it s way too hard. IMO, anyway. Far too long for a single sentence. It s also spelled in
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 7, 2001
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Keth,

        On Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 05:43:55PM -0000, keth@... wrote:

        > I looked through some saga texts. But I felt many of the
        > sentences were too easy. Here is one that is a little bit
        > more difficult than average. But NOTE : I think it is best
        > if you do not use a dictionary. (that's cheating)
        > Okay, here is the sentence :

        Right off the face of it, if this is a single sentence, it's way
        too hard. IMO, anyway. Far too long for a single sentence.

        It's also spelled in an interesting manner. Not one of the normalized
        spellings I've seen. In particular, I see a lot of instances of V where
        the word seems to me to require U. You've also got some special character
        apparantly being represented by the english comma (,) If you are going to
        use transliterations like this, please as a minimum provide a transliteration
        key. (I see the comma always after o; is this your transliteration of the
        o-with-tail, more commonly represented as o-with-2-dots?)

        > Her verða skiot vm skipti, þilik
        > sem grimm hrið kiemi moti bliðv solskini,
        > eðr þvert veðr kiemi at skipi siglanda aaðr
        > goðan byr; ok betr maa hon nv kallaz
        > Severa enn Serena; þviat skirleikinn
        > kastaði hon, þviat hon tekr ser þann
        > vargham, at her aa ofan skemmir hon hann
        > með sva fo,llnum orðum: "Se her," segir
        > hon, "leiðr skaalkr ok full farri! hvilikr
        > þv vart, ok huersv þu drott þinn flatan
        > fot v syniv vt af þinv moðvr hvsi, meðan
        > þv kvnner æigi sva mickla hoftyft, at þv
        > me,ttir þer skamm laust mat [at munni
        > bera hia o,ðrv goðv folki. Ok nu i samri
        > stvnd verð vti, vaandr þorari! af þvisa
        > herbergi með o,llvm þeim fo,ntvm ok ribb-
        > alldvm, er þv drott her inn, sva framt
        > sem þv villt v skemðr vera!"
        >
        > Please read it carefully 2 or 3 times,
        > and make up a list of the words you
        > are unsure about. Maybe you can also
        > state what you *think* this is all
        > about.
        >
        > (that way we can find out what the right level is)

        Hmmm... I'm getting approx 1 word in 3. That's without a dictionary.
        And without doing too much compensation for your odd transcription
        (e.g. "mickla" has letters that don't occur in OI; I suspect "sva"
        should be "svá" ... both _might_ be words I know with unusual
        transcriptions, or might be some other word that I'm not familiar
        with.)

        Anyway, this is well beyond my _reading_ level, probably within my
        _translating_ level (with dictionary). (There's a big difference.)

        --
        Arlie

        (Arlie Stephens arlie@...)
      • keth@online.no
        Hi Arlie! Yes, I agree that it was a bit on the difficult side. It is just that when I looked for sentences in Gunnlaugs saga ormstungu , I found I could read
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 7, 2001
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Arlie!
          Yes, I agree that it was a bit on the difficult side.
          It is just that when I looked for sentences in "Gunnlaugs
          saga ormstungu", I found I could read everything easy
          as cake, which was a bit frustrating, because usually
          when I look at ON texts, there are plenty of words I
          don't know. I therefore took the next saga I had, which
          is something called "Clarus Saga" and was published in
          a scientific edition by a Swede called G. Cederschiöld
          1874. Unfortunately I cannot read the introduction very well,
          because it is all in Latin. But any way, my impression
          is that Cederschiöld has here followed the original
          spelling that you find in the medieval manuscripts.
          As you noted, it is a little different from what one
          often calls "normalized" Old Norse, which I understand
          means to change the spelling of the old manuscripts
          so that it becomes very close to the modern Icelandic spelling.

          The reason why I use a comma for the hooked-o, is because
          there is also a hooked-e in these manuscripts. And I think
          one best approximates the historical form by writing a comma
          after the letter. "v" is of course the same as "u", wherever
          such an identification makes sense. Also note the repeated
          vowels that denote lengthened vowels. In the book these
          double vowels are printed partly on top of each other.
          Apart from these features, I cannot see much else that
          would be difficult.



          --- In norse_course@y..., Arlie Stephens <arlie@w...> wrote:
          > Hi Keth,
          >
          > On Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 05:43:55PM -0000, keth@o... wrote:
          >
          > > I looked through some saga texts. But I felt many of the
          > > sentences were too easy. Here is one that is a little bit
          > > more difficult than average. But NOTE : I think it is best
          > > if you do not use a dictionary. (that's cheating)
          > > Okay, here is the sentence :
          >
          > Right off the face of it, if this is a single sentence, it's way
          > too hard. IMO, anyway. Far too long for a single sentence.

          It was certainly more than a sentence. But I felt that much was
          needed to give the text some kind of context.

          But Arli (!) . . . :), if you sleep on it a night, I am sure
          you will be able to see some glimmerings of light !
          That is what happened to me. Yesterday I honestly didn't
          understand anything. But as I look at it now, I see it
          is beginning to dawn on me. Here are some tips. (and if
          I make an error, all the better, for then we shall have
          something to discuss). Here is the first word you can make
          sense of: "skiot". All you need to remember is the word
          for "shooting" and then remember that shooting is always fast
          (fast like a bullet, we say), and then recall that "skiot"
          could mean "fast/speedy" here.

          Then go to "verða": this clearly is the verb. (=to be)
          "Her" = 'here'; that is standard.

          Now look at the 1st sentence again.
          It says "Here are fast ..."

          Then look for words that can complete this half sentence.
          "vm skipti". Here you recognize the English word "to shift".
          "um skipti" will then be "to shift about". Aha! It means
          "changes". So our sentence now reads:
          "Here are fast going to be some changes..."
          (NB I'm not using a dictionary)

          Once you get this (the beginning), the rest will start
          to come much more easily.
          "hrið": Here remember this as something to do with
          hores-riding. And that nightmares can ride you too.
          Also at childbirth women get these cramps that are
          somewhat similar (periodic). Then, as your eye
          follows the text somewhat further, you see a word for
          "sunshine". Aha! You say, "hrið" means the opposite
          of sunshine, and so it is a shower of bad weather.

          And so we now have succeeded in understanding the whole
          first sentence:
          "Here are going to be some quick changes...
          just like bad weather comes against pleasant sunshine,
          or like cross winds come against a sailing ship before
          the fair wind comes..."

          Something like that....
          (Thus far I did not use a dictionary)
          Then continue to read the rest.
          But NB, and this is important: Try NOT to use
          a dictionary, until you have really tried very
          hard, reading the whole piece several times
          over a period of several days. The probability
          is that you will then have understood it all
          by yourself without any external help.
          Then afterwards you can use the dictionary
          and the grammar book to "fine tune" the translation.

          But, as Gordon pointed out, one should also try to
          read without translating. Just try to see what images
          the words evoke. Try to see "hrið" as a terrible snowstorm,
          but also as the throes that happen to a woman in child-birth.
          Try to see "blið" as someone smiling.. etc..
          Then after a while you will see that you do not need to have
          exact definitions for everything, because such texts are often
          also self-explanatory.

          I believe Gordon has a very important point here.
          Word by word translation (books in hand) is way too slow
          a method for ever learning the language. (life is too
          short). And so one has to try to reach a level of maturity
          where things begin to make sense without external aids.
          And one is usually a lot closer than one thinks !

          But now that I've spent that much time on this rather
          random piece of text, it would be really nice if
          some Icelander (Haukur?) would rewrite the text in
          Icelandic spelling. And perhaps give a few clues.
          (My own ideas may have been partly erroneous)

          The best to you!
          KeÞ.

          >
          > It's also spelled in an interesting manner. Not one of the
          normalized
          > spellings I've seen. In particular, I see a lot of instances of V
          where
          > the word seems to me to require U. You've also got some special
          character
          > apparantly being represented by the english comma (,) If you are
          going to
          > use transliterations like this, please as a minimum provide a
          transliteration
          > key. (I see the comma always after o; is this your transliteration
          of the
          > o-with-tail, more commonly represented as o-with-2-dots?)
          >
          > > Her verða skiot vm skipti, þilik
          > > sem grimm hrið kiemi moti bliðv solskini,
          > > eðr þvert veðr kiemi at skipi siglanda aaðr
          > > goðan byr; ok betr maa hon nv kallaz
          > > Severa enn Serena; þviat skirleikinn
          > > kastaði hon, þviat hon tekr ser þann
          > > vargham, at her aa ofan skemmir hon hann
          > > með sva fo,llnum orðum: "Se her," segir
          > > hon, "leiðr skaalkr ok full farri! hvilikr
          > > þv vart, ok huersv þu drott þinn flatan
          > > fot v syniv vt af þinv moðvr hvsi, meðan
          > > þv kvnner æigi sva mickla hoftyft, at þv
          > > me,ttir þer skamm laust mat [at munni
          > > bera hia o,ðrv goðv folki. Ok nu i samri
          > > stvnd verð vti, vaandr þorari! af þvisa
          > > herbergi með o,llvm þeim fo,ntvm ok ribb-
          > > alldvm, er þv drott her inn, sva framt
          > > sem þv villt v skemðr vera!"
          > >
          > > Please read it carefully 2 or 3 times,
          > > and make up a list of the words you
          > > are unsure about. Maybe you can also
          > > state what you *think* this is all
          > > about.
          > >
          > > (that way we can find out what the right level is)
          >
          > Hmmm... I'm getting approx 1 word in 3. That's without a dictionary.
          > And without doing too much compensation for your odd transcription
          > (e.g. "mickla" has letters that don't occur in OI; I suspect "sva"
          > should be "svá" ... both _might_ be words I know with unusual
          > transcriptions, or might be some other word that I'm not familiar
          > with.)
          >
          > Anyway, this is well beyond my _reading_ level, probably within my
          > _translating_ level (with dictionary). (There's a big difference.)
          >
          > --
          > Arlie
          >
          > (Arlie Stephens
          arlie@w...)
        • falconsword@hotmail.com
          ... I will not point out your mistakes; your sentences are usually beyond repair. ... Vel doesn t mean more , it means well . Á does not mean on in
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 9, 2001
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            Anþanarei wrote:

            >I am going to have problems with as well as
            >grammar, but hopefully somebody can point out my mistakes.

            I will not point out your mistakes;
            your sentences are usually beyond repair.


            Example:

            >Vel á talaðr æfingar
            >More on talking exercises.

            "Vel" doesn't mean 'more', it means 'well'.
            "Á" does not mean 'on' in this context,
            the correct preposition is "um".
            "Talaðr" is in the wrong case, gender and number.

            Regards,
            Haukur
          • falconsword@hotmail.com
            ... Oh, okay. A few points: * The style of the text is a bit convulated and learned ; it is not in the best saga-style . * There s a Latin word-game in
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 9, 2001
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              Keth kethed:


              >But now that I've spent that much time on this rather
              >random piece of text, it would be really nice if
              >some Icelander (Haukur?) would rewrite the text in
              >Icelandic spelling. And perhaps give a few clues.
              >(My own ideas may have been partly erroneous)

              Oh, okay.

              A few points:

              * The style of the text is a bit convulated
              and "learned"; it is not in the best "saga-style".

              * There's a Latin word-game in there.

              * The first two lines mean something like:
              "Here are sudden changes, such as a grim
              snow-storm came against blithe sunshine..."

              * Varg-hamr = The skin of a wolf
              This is an interesting word in the context.


              Manuscript spelling
              {
              Her verða skiot vm skipti, þilik
              sem grimm hrið kiemi moti bliðv solskini,
              eðr þvert veðr kiemi at skipi siglanda aaðr
              goðan byr; ok betr maa hon nv kallaz
              Severa enn Serena; þviat skirleikinn
              kastaði hon, þviat hon tekr ser þann
              vargham, at her aa ofan skemmir hon hann
              með sva fo,llnum orðum: "Se her," segir
              hon, "leiðr skaalkr ok full farri! hvilikr
              þv vart, ok huersv þu drott þinn flatan
              fot v syniv vt af þinv moðvr hvsi, meðan
              þv kvnner æigi sva mickla hoftyft, at þv
              me,ttir þer skamm laust mat [at munni
              bera hia o,ðrv goðv folki. Ok nu i samri
              stvnd verð vti, vaandr þorari! af þvisa
              herbergi með o,llvm þeim fo,ntvm ok ribb-
              alldvm, er þv drott her inn, sva framt
              sem þv villt v skemðr vera!"
              }

              Normalised spelling
              {
              Hér verða skjót umskipti, þvílík
              sem grimm hríð kæmi móti blíðu sólskini,
              eðr þvert veðr kæmi at skipi siglanda áðr
              góðan byr; ok betr má hon nú kallask
              Severa en Serena; því at skírleikinn
              kastaði hon, því at hon tekr sér þann
              vargham, at hér á ofan skemmir hon hann
              með svá föllnum orðum: "Sjá hér," segir
              hon, "leiðr skálkr ok fullfarri! hvílíkr
              þú vart, ok hversu þú drótt þinn flatan
              fót ósynju út af þínu móðurhúsi, meðan
              þú kunnir eigi svá mikla hoftyft, at þú
              mættir þér skammlaust mat at munni
              bera hjá öðru góðu fólki. Ok nú í samri
              stund verð úti, vándr þorpari! af þvísa
              herbergi með öllum þeim föntum ok
              ribböldum, er þú drótt hér inn, svá framt
              sem þú vilt óskemmðr vera!"
              }
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.