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Re: [norse_course] English to Old Norse Dictionary

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  • robert blank
    Heill There is actually an online English to Old Norse Dictionary but it is VERY limited (a hundred words or so)I can t find the URL at the moment but the name
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 2 7:05 AM
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      Heill

      There is actually an online English to Old Norse
      Dictionary but it is VERY limited (a hundred words or
      so)I can't find the URL at the moment but the name of
      the site is the Old Norse Language Institute. The
      ONLI is an interesting site with some decent
      resources. Hope this helps.

      Rob

      --- "Brady.Boyd" <brady.boyd@...> wrote:
      > Hello:
      >
      > I am curious if anybody knows of any online English
      > to Old Norse dictionary
      > that is available?
      >
      > Thank you.
      >
      > Sumir hafa kv��i...
      > ...a�rir spakm�li.
      >
      > - Keth
      >
      > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > norse_course-unsubscribe@egroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >


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    • Lynda Maynard
      Too bad it s the ONLI one!!!!At 07:05 AM 6/2/2001, you wrote: Heill There is actually an online English to Old Norse Dictionary
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 2 9:03 AM
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        Too bad it's the ONLI one!!!!
        <ducking & running!!>

        At 07:05 AM 6/2/2001, you wrote:
        >Heill
        >
        >There is actually an online English to Old Norse
        >Dictionary but it is VERY limited (a hundred words or
        >so)I can't find the URL at the moment but the name of
        >the site is the Old Norse Language Institute. The
        >ONLI is an interesting site with some decent
        >resources. Hope this helps.
        >
        >Rob

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      • Anþanareiks
        ... Heill ves þú! As far as the goal of being fluent in ON. To attain this goal, it might be effective to learn Modern Icelandic in conjunction with Old
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 3 9:52 AM
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          --- In norse_course@y..., keth@o... wrote:
          > I think the reason why there is no Eng.-ON dictionary available,
          > is because it is not necessary when you merely read ON texts
          > and are not interested in learning to *speak* Old Norse -- an
          > almost impossible task any way -- see the posts by Gordon who
          > has discussed this topic in a very interesting way.

          Heill ves þú!
          As far as the goal of being fluent in ON.
          To attain this goal, it might be effective to learn Modern Icelandic
          in conjunction with Old Icelandic.
          There is a group that teaches modern Icelandic.
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LearningIcelandic
          The list owner is an American who is fairly fluent in it.
          He recommends to listen to Icelandic radio as well in which he can
          understand iy at this point.
          Scholars generally feel that the only practical way to speak ON is to
          use the pronunciation of modern Icelandic.


          Beztinn,
          Anþanrikr

          http://www.geocities.com/ordlag_godvegr/ONLI_English_Norse_Dictionary.
          htm
        • Anþanareiks
          ... to ... The list owner, Rodney Martel, recently made a trip to Iceland and posted interview questions and common expressions in md. Icelandic that he used
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 3 10:11 AM
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            > The list owner is an American who is fairly fluent in it.
            > He recommends to listen to Icelandic radio as well in which he can
            > understand iy at this point.
            > Scholars generally feel that the only practical way to speak ON is
            to
            > use the pronunciation of modern Icelandic.

            The list owner, Rodney Martel, recently made a trip to Iceland and
            posted interview questions and common expressions in md. Icelandic
            that he used over there in order to converse with Icelanders, so he
            became conversant in it with time.
            I can't remember the article or name of the scholar, but there was a
            discussion in I think, an old issue of Viking Society for Northern
            Research, in which a bevy of Norse scholars weighed in on the topic,
            I think the consensus was, yes you could learn the reconstructed
            pronunciation of ON but it was not practical at all. Back then, in
            the 70s, they went to Iceland and the only real way for ON to become
            a living language is to speak ON in a modern approach


            Anthanarik
          • keth@online.no
            ... Thanks for the tip Anthanareiks. It is however like this: Learning Norwegian will not make you fluent in Swedish or Danish. The way we do it, is just to
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 3 3:03 PM
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              >--- In norse_course@y..., keth@o... wrote:
              >> I think the reason why there is no Eng.-ON dictionary available,
              >> is because it is not necessary when you merely read ON texts
              >> and are not interested in learning to *speak* Old Norse -- an
              >> almost impossible task any way -- see the posts by Gordon who
              >> has discussed this topic in a very interesting way.
              >
              >Heill ves þú!
              >As far as the goal of being fluent in ON.
              >To attain this goal, it might be effective to learn Modern Icelandic
              >in conjunction with Old Icelandic.
              >There is a group that teaches modern Icelandic.
              >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LearningIcelandic
              >The list owner is an American who is fairly fluent in it.
              >He recommends to listen to Icelandic radio as well in which he can
              >understand iy at this point.
              >Scholars generally feel that the only practical way to speak ON is to
              >use the pronunciation of modern Icelandic.
              >

              Thanks for the tip Anthanareiks.

              It is however like this: Learning Norwegian will not make you
              fluent in Swedish or Danish. The way we do it, is just to
              speak our own language a bit more slowly, and perhaps
              inserting a few words from the other language here and there.

              The only way to become fluent in another language is by living
              in a country where they speak the language for a number of years.

              For this reason it is impossible to become fluent in Old Norse,
              because it is a dead language. It is however possible to become
              more or less fluent in modern Icelandic, and that is then the
              next best choice.

              I had a teacher of Old Norse, who read Old Norse according
              to the reconstructed pronounciation. It sounded very nice.
              He was also a teacher of modern Icelandic, and was able to speak
              it more or less fluently. When he did that he switched his mode
              of pronounciation, and it sounded entirely different.

              I have also heard that many American and British scholars of Old
              English and Old Norse (the two are usually combined, I hear)
              have lived in Iceland for a number of years. And I have also
              heard that their approach to Old Norse is pretty much by adopting
              modern Icelandic pronounciation. But I am not sure if it is done
              that way in Europe. Most European Old Norse textbooks I have
              seen start with a chapter on pronounciation, and it is not the
              same as modern Icelandic. I hear it is an advantage to know
              the early medieval pronounciation when working with such things
              as runic inscriptions and place names. That is because they wrote
              it pretty much the way they spoke it back then. That is my
              take on it.

              Thanks for the topic!

              Best regards
              Keth
            • Anþanareiks
              ... Heill ves þú Keth! My idea is to read ON sentences daily, grammar, etc...then proceed to an online e-zine about simple news, translated paragraphs and
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 3 3:26 PM
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                --- In norse_course@y..., keth@o... wrote:
                > The only way to become fluent in another language is by living
                > in a country where they speak the language for a number of years.
                >
                > For this reason it is impossible to become fluent in Old Norse,
                > because it is a dead language. It is however possible to become
                > more or less fluent in modern Icelandic, and that is then the
                > next best choice.

                Heill ves þú Keth!

                My idea is to read ON sentences daily, grammar, etc...then proceed to
                an online e-zine about simple news, translated paragraphs and then
                years later converse in Icelandic and Old Icelandic forming a ON
                lanuage community.

                Besta,

                Anþanrikr
              • keth@online.no
                Vér heil dú óg ! Vil du freista å tala det gamle målet ? Då må du røyna meg, og eg mun svara! ... That sounds like a good idea. Sounds a bit like what
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 3 4:38 PM
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                  Vér heil dú óg !
                  Vil du freista å tala det gamle målet ?
                  Då må du røyna meg, og eg mun svara!

                  >--- In norse_course@y..., keth@o... wrote:
                  >> The only way to become fluent in another language is by living
                  >> in a country where they speak the language for a number of years.
                  >>
                  >> For this reason it is impossible to become fluent in Old Norse,
                  >> because it is a dead language. It is however possible to become
                  >> more or less fluent in modern Icelandic, and that is then the
                  >> next best choice.
                  >
                  >Heill ves þú Keth!
                  >
                  >My idea is to read ON sentences daily, grammar, etc...then proceed to
                  >an online e-zine about simple news, translated paragraphs and then
                  >years later converse in Icelandic and Old Icelandic forming a ON
                  >lanuage community.
                  >
                  >Besta,
                  >
                  >Anþanrikr

                  That sounds like a good idea.
                  Sounds a bit like what they did in Israel. As you probably know,
                  the Hebrew language was pretty much extinct in the 19th century.
                  But they managed to resusciate it, because enough people were
                  once again living together to form a community.

                  As I have experienced it, it is quite difficult to completely
                  separate in ones mind two languages that are very close.
                  Youngsters can often manage it, though seldom perfectly.
                  The older one gets, the more both languages start to assimilate
                  each others structures. (read: mix up)

                  It is much easier with languages that are farther apart,
                  such as e.g. English and Spanish, than for example American
                  English and British English.

                  There also is a gothic language group, where they already
                  made some efforts to make gothic into a workable language.
                  The problem with gothic is that its vocabulary is rather small.
                  Hence there is a need to invent new words for the words that
                  are missing from the dictionary one has been able to build.
                  These new words are called "neologisms" or something similar.
                  (neo-gothic?)
                  The problem is that it is very hard to find a system that everyone
                  agrees with. What do you for example call a car?
                  Do you simply use the American word, or do you make up a new gothic
                  word based upon gothic roots ?


                  The same with Old Norse. The best bet would then be to simply use
                  modern Icelandic, that has already gone through the long process
                  of adapting itself to modern times.

                  Listening to the Icelandic radio sounds like a good idea.
                  What about television ? The thing is that I already tried
                  to read an Icelandic newspaper. But I had to stop because
                  I did not have the time. It was also difficult to get tuned
                  into the events there, when I am not there myself and can also
                  participate in how people feel about things.

                  A group of non-Icelanders will also have a very hard time to
                  "pull each other up" to a level of proficiency. The ideal situation
                  is that you are are alone surrounded by only people who speak
                  the other language, so that you are forced to use the language in
                  your daily life.

                  Learning a thing means to interact with it.
                  But, as Werner Heisenberg showed, interacting with
                  a thing (or "measuring" it) also changes it.
                  Heraklit also said that you can't step into the same river twice.

                  Keth
                • Anþanareiks
                  Hails Keth! Þu qaþ Sounds a bit like what they did in Israel. As you probably know, the Hebrew language was pretty much extinct in the 19th century. But they
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 3 4:49 PM
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                    Hails Keth!

                    Þu qaþ

                    Sounds a bit like what they did in Israel. As you probably know,
                    the Hebrew language was pretty much extinct in the 19th century.
                    But they managed to resusciate it, because enough people were
                    once again living together to form a community.

                    ik qaþ
                    Difficult, but they showed it could be done, e.g. resurrecting an
                    extinct language.

                    þu qast
                    There also is a gothic language group, where they already
                    made some efforts to make gothic into a workable language.

                    ik qaþ
                    You might be refering to mine:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Gothic_Language_Institute/messages
                    http://www.geocities.com/ordlag_godvegr/Gothic_Language_Institute.htm
                    I see value in Gothic because that is part of my identity, but it is
                    also the earliest extant Germanic language, circa 300 CE compared to
                    ON 1100 CE.
                    You could, to a very limited extent, make Old Norse more primordial
                    by understanding Gothic and Proto-Germanic.

                    þu qast
                    The problem with gothic is that its vocabulary is rather small.
                    Hence there is a need to invent new words for the words that
                    are missing from the dictionary one has been able to build.
                    These new words are called "neologisms" or something similar.
                    (neo-gothic?)

                    ik qast
                    Gothic is alot harder being there are much fewer extant Gothic texts.

                    þu qaþ
                    The problem is that it is very hard to find a system that everyone
                    agrees with. What do you for example call a car?
                    Do you simply use the American word, or do you make up a new gothic
                    word based upon gothic roots ?

                    ik qast
                    Problems for sure, with an expert understanding of Gothic linguist,
                    you should be able to reconstruct it at least logically. Wulfilas did
                    a great job in making gothic logically thus easier to learn.


                    þu qast
                    The same with Old Norse. The best bet would then be to simply use
                    modern Icelandic, that has already gone through the long process
                    of adapting itself to modern times.

                    ik qaþ
                    My take,
                    from neophyte onwards.
                    1 Have an accurate and comphrehensive ON linguistic resources.
                    2 Post daily ON sentences so that the beginner can get into the
                    climate and learn by osmosis as children do.
                    3 Have a daily Translated online newspaper
                    4 Have an online Old Norse linguistic community
                    5 Have local Old Norse groups that converse in the language on a
                    regular basis.


                    þu qast
                    Listening to the Icelandic radio sounds like a good idea.
                    What about television ? The thing is that I already tried
                    to read an Icelandic newspaper. But I had to stop because
                    I did not have the time. It was also difficult to get tuned
                    into the events there, when I am not there myself and can also
                    participate in how people feel about things.

                    ik qaþ
                    Cable t.v. video tapes and movies,
                    Something in the future that would be good.
                    video ON instruction and conversation, etc...
                    Sigurd Nordal Institute is now making a multimedia language
                    instruction program.

                    þu qast
                    A group of non-Icelanders will also have a very hard time to
                    "pull each other up" to a level of proficiency. The ideal situation
                    is that you are are alone surrounded by only people who speak
                    the other language, so that you are forced to use the language in
                    your daily life.

                    ik qaþ
                    As time evolves and hopefully ON materials and fluent ON speakers
                    become manifest and multiple, living communities could evolve on a
                    local basis and in some countries more then others.

                    þu qaþ
                    Learning a thing means to interact with it.
                    But, as Werner Heisenberg showed, interacting with
                    a thing (or "measuring" it) also changes it.
                    Heraklit also said that you can't step into the same river twice.

                    ik qaþ
                    My approach,
                    Understand and be competent in both Icelandic and Old Icelandic.
                    Take Icelandic and substitute where you can Old Icelandic words in
                    its place, consider also the varients of grammar, and then you would
                    have a modern version of Old Icelandic.
                    From there, there would be not much need in learning Moderen
                    Icelandic except if you are in Iceland.



                    Golja thuk,

                    Anþanareiks
                  • Anþanareiks
                    Hails Keth! Þu qaþ Sounds a bit like what they did in Israel. As you probably know, the Hebrew language was pretty much extinct in the 19th century. But they
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 3 4:50 PM
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                      Hails Keth!

                      Þu qaþ

                      Sounds a bit like what they did in Israel. As you probably know,
                      the Hebrew language was pretty much extinct in the 19th century.
                      But they managed to resusciate it, because enough people were
                      once again living together to form a community.

                      ik qaþ
                      Difficult, but they showed it could be done, e.g. resurrecting an
                      extinct language.

                      þu qast
                      There also is a gothic language group, where they already
                      made some efforts to make gothic into a workable language.

                      ik qaþ
                      You might be refering to mine:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Gothic_Language_Institute/messages
                      http://www.geocities.com/ordlag_godvegr/Gothic_Language_Institute.htm
                      I see value in Gothic because that is part of my identity, but it is
                      also the earliest extant Germanic language, circa 300 CE compared to
                      ON 1100 CE.
                      You could, to a very limited extent, make Old Norse more primordial
                      by understanding Gothic and Proto-Germanic.

                      þu qast
                      The problem with gothic is that its vocabulary is rather small.
                      Hence there is a need to invent new words for the words that
                      are missing from the dictionary one has been able to build.
                      These new words are called "neologisms" or something similar.
                      (neo-gothic?)

                      ik qast
                      Gothic is alot harder being there are much fewer extant Gothic texts.

                      þu qaþ
                      The problem is that it is very hard to find a system that everyone
                      agrees with. What do you for example call a car?
                      Do you simply use the American word, or do you make up a new gothic
                      word based upon gothic roots ?

                      ik qast
                      Problems for sure, with an expert understanding of Gothic linguist,
                      you should be able to reconstruct it at least logically. Wulfilas did
                      a great job in making gothic logically thus easier to learn.


                      þu qast
                      The same with Old Norse. The best bet would then be to simply use
                      modern Icelandic, that has already gone through the long process
                      of adapting itself to modern times.

                      ik qaþ
                      My take,
                      from neophyte onwards.
                      1 Have an accurate and comphrehensive ON linguistic resources.
                      2 Post daily ON sentences so that the beginner can get into the
                      climate and learn by osmosis as children do.
                      3 Have a daily Translated online newspaper
                      4 Have an online Old Norse linguistic community
                      5 Have local Old Norse groups that converse in the language on a
                      regular basis.


                      þu qast
                      Listening to the Icelandic radio sounds like a good idea.
                      What about television ? The thing is that I already tried
                      to read an Icelandic newspaper. But I had to stop because
                      I did not have the time. It was also difficult to get tuned
                      into the events there, when I am not there myself and can also
                      participate in how people feel about things.

                      ik qaþ
                      Cable t.v. video tapes and movies,
                      Something in the future that would be good.
                      video ON instruction and conversation, etc...
                      Sigurd Nordal Institute is now making a multimedia language
                      instruction program.

                      þu qast
                      A group of non-Icelanders will also have a very hard time to
                      "pull each other up" to a level of proficiency. The ideal situation
                      is that you are are alone surrounded by only people who speak
                      the other language, so that you are forced to use the language in
                      your daily life.

                      ik qaþ
                      As time evolves and hopefully ON materials and fluent ON speakers
                      become manifest and multiple, living communities could evolve on a
                      local basis and in some countries more then others.

                      þu qaþ
                      Learning a thing means to interact with it.
                      But, as Werner Heisenberg showed, interacting with
                      a thing (or "measuring" it) also changes it.
                      Heraklit also said that you can't step into the same river twice.

                      ik qaþ
                      My approach,
                      Understand and be competent in both Icelandic and Old Icelandic.
                      Take Icelandic and substitute where you can Old Icelandic words in
                      its place, consider also the varients of grammar, and then you would
                      have a modern version of Old Icelandic.
                      From there, there would be not much need in learning Moderen
                      Icelandic except if you are in Iceland.



                      Golja thuk,

                      Anþanareiks
                    • Anþanareiks
                      ... Will you freely now speak for a game reply That is probably not right. ik á né mog goð. What is am ? ... Speak if you able to and I will answer
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 3 5:49 PM
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                        > Vil du freista å tala det gamle målet ?
                        Will you freely now speak for a game reply

                        That is probably not right.

                        ik á né mog goð.

                        What is 'am'?

                        > Då må du røyna meg, og eg mun svara!

                        Speak if you able to and I will answer


                        Hvernig var vikan hjá þér?

                        Feel free to correct my mistakes. It would help if my Old Norse
                        Dictionary was more comphrehenisve. My English/Icelandic dictionary
                        is at work, else it would be easier.


                        Anthanarik
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